which wins... three strikes dq vs. a default?

B

BlueTennis

New User
i just discovered this message board, and as a captain am very glad I did! Hope you are all enjoying the holiday weekend.

I have a question for you all: if a player receives a three strikes disqualification mid-season (during adult league), but one of his prior wins was a singles default due to a no-show, who wins the match?

if the team win comes down to this result, im guessing one of two things would happen.... sets won would determine the winner, or the match would have to be replayed between two eligible players.

which would it be? I've had a good look through the rulebook but cannot find an answer. Thanks for any information!
 
J

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
Ive never seen that happen, but Id think the most logical outcome would be a double default.

Same as if nobody from either team shows for that position.

Double Defaults do occur. We had a division last year that only consisted of two teams and the first place team had a "losing" individual record for awhile due to a lot of double defaults. (our area uses individual wins to determine who's in first)

(double default means both teams get a loss for that match, if you're going by the team wins count system and it makes a 2-2 tie then it probably throws that match down to a tiebreaker which most likely is "least sets lost")
 
G

GMay

New User
Actually I think that you may still be able to go in and change the player that is the "winner" of the default to a different player on your team. I have seen this done before. Try it and then you don't have to count it as a default.
 
J

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
GMay said:
Actually I think that you may still be able to go in and change the player that is the "winner" of the default to a different player on your team. I have seen this done before. Try it and then you don't have to count it as a default.
Click to expand...

You usually cant re-enter the score once you've already put it in and it's been confirmed. It usually requires a league coordinator's help.

It's probably a good thing anyway, it might keep people from getting 37 different players on their team and hiding people just for the playoffs.
 
polski

polski

Semi-Pro
BlueTennis said:
i just discovered this message board, and as a captain am very glad I did! Hope you are all enjoying the holiday weekend.

I have a question for you all: if a player receives a three strikes disqualification mid-season (during adult league), but one of his prior wins was a singles default due to a no-show, who wins the match?

if the team win comes down to this result, im guessing one of two things would happen.... sets won would determine the winner, or the match would have to be replayed between two eligible players.

which would it be? I've had a good look through the rulebook but cannot find an answer. Thanks for any information!
Click to expand...

It would be worth a very friendlycall to the league coordinator. However, don't hold your breath on a favorable outcome. The coordinator probably won't find much sympathy for a captain of a sandbagger.

I assume the best result you can hope to get is a double default. I wouldn't be totally surprised if they made a decision that the defaulting team gets a win just to make a point in your area.

Karma gets you sometimes
 
P

ProgressoR

Hall of Fame
GMay said:
Actually I think that you may still be able to go in and change the player that is the "winner" of the default to a different player on your team. I have seen this done before. Try it and then you don't have to count it as a default.
Click to expand...

This is dis-honest. Have you no morals?
 
C

catfish

Professional
polski said:
It would be worth a very friendlycall to the league coordinator. However, don't hold your breath on a favorable outcome. The coordinator probably won't find much sympathy for a captain of a sandbagger.

I assume the best result you can hope to get is a double default. I wouldn't be totally surprised if they made a decision that the defaulting team gets a win just to make a point in your area.

Karma gets you sometimes
Click to expand...

This is not something that is left up to the discretion of a local league coordinator. When a player is DQ'd, TennisLink changes all of their wins to losses. In this case, the team that defaulted would get a win. DQ and DQ Reviews are handled by the Sectional office. Local coordinators have no involvement.
 
J

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
J_R_B said:
The answer is that "N/A" is counted as the winner on the DQ'd court. This actually happened in our league a cople years ago.

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/SearchReports/rptScorecard.asp?MatchID=1000618197

This match is recorded as a 3-2 result, so that 2nd singles must have been awarded to the losing team.
Click to expand...

Wow, you are right. That's kind of screwy. It would be more fair if it's a double default.

You shouldnt be able to win without even bringing a player to the match. (think about it, if both teams were missing a player it would be a double default)

It must be part of the programming when it encounters a DQ, that's pretty poor.

And as far as any coordinator feeling ill toward someone getting a DQ, that's silly.

The person just happened to be in the wrong level and the computer managed to take care of that. They are DQ'ed from the team and they could lose all of their matches.

They wouldnt need some frowny face nit picky coordinator to feel anything ill about it beyond that.....
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
JavierLW said:
Wow, you are right. That's kind of screwy. It would be more fair if it's a double default.

You shouldnt be able to win without even bringing a player to the match. (think about it, if both teams were missing a player it would be a double default)

It must be part of the programming when it encounters a DQ, that's pretty poor.

And as far as any coordinator feeling ill toward someone getting a DQ, that's silly.

The person just happened to be in the wrong level and the computer managed to take care of that. They are DQ'ed from the team and they could lose all of their matches.

They wouldnt need some frowny face nit picky coordinator to feel anything ill about it beyond that.....
Click to expand...

It is a pretty screwy results, but I didn't make the algorithm, I just report on it.

It was really an unfortunate situation all around. This guy self-rated at 3.5 in order to join a team his brother was on. Then, he joined a 4.0 team, too, without realizing that doing so would definitely get him DQ'd from 3.5. As soon as he played his 3rd 4.0 match, he was (unsurprisingly...) DQ'd and his 3.5 results were overturned, which actually cost his brother's team in a tight race for the playoffs.
 
8

86golf

Semi-Pro
J_R_B said:
The answer is that "N/A" is counted as the winner on the DQ'd court. This actually happened in our league a cople years ago.

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/SearchReports/rptScorecard.asp?MatchID=1000618197

This match is recorded as a 3-2 result, so that 2nd singles must have been awarded to the losing team.
Click to expand...

This has to be a bug in the system. A default is a default. I've never tried it, but can you record a default without a winning players name and just leave it blank?
Another league that we play in NC will allow you to record defaults and just leave the winning team blank, but I haven't tried it on Tennislink.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I think it is perfectly fair to handle it this way. I think folks who play below level should be penalized in every way possible to discourage sandbagging to the extent we can.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Cindysphinx said:
I think it is perfectly fair to handle it this way. I think folks who play below level should be penalized in every way possible to discourage sandbagging to the extent we can.
Click to expand...

These rules actually apparently vary by section. We had a guy DQ'd that played in 2 sections. One section overturned all his results, but the other just DQ'd him and didn't change the results and said that they don't overturn matches that don't generate strikes (all of the strikes were in the other section).
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
86golf said:
This has to be a bug in the system. A default is a default. I've never tried it, but can you record a default without a winning players name and just leave it blank?
Another league that we play in NC will allow you to record defaults and just leave the winning team blank, but I haven't tried it on Tennislink.
Click to expand...

It seems like this is probably a programming logic issue and not one that was actually given any critical thought by anyone, but who knows? Don't get DQ'd is the moral of the story.
 
C

catfish

Professional
J_R_B said:
It seems like this is probably a programming logic issue and not one that was actually given any critical thought by anyone, but who knows? Don't get DQ'd is the moral of the story.
Click to expand...

It does seem kind of odd that a default loss would become an individual win as a result of a DQ. I am not sure about this, but my guess is that it is a programming thing in TennisLink. TennisLink is probably programmed to either DQ all of the DQ'd player's previous matches or none of them. (USTA National Regs let the Sections decide which matches become losses. USTA 3.04d.) I suspect that TennisLink's programming may not be able to treat a "Default" win differently from other wins. Maybe no one thought of the default scenario when they created the program. A double default would seem more reasonable.
 
athiker

athiker

Hall of Fame
That does seem odd, especially since there is evidently an allowance in the programming for a double default. IMHO it should be changed for a win by default for the DQ'd player to a double default. Since the DQ'd player (if their results are overturned) is basically declared never to have been a member of team they should not keep the win on a defaulted court, that much I agree with. It should be overturned but only to a neutral result. Overturned b/c who knows if he may have been the only one available that night and IF the match had been played and he won it would've been overturned anyway.

Maybe that's all they care about...IF the match had been played the other team would've been declared the winner regardless of outcome. The facts are though, it was never going to BE played b/c the DQ'd player's opponent never showed...so again...seems to be a bug...a double default should be the result. Though surely they are aware of this, so maybe it is a little, albeit usually pointless, extra little penalty.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Consider this.

In our area, a player defaults if he/she shows up more than 15 minutes late. You don't start the clock running on the 15 minutes until one player is on the court ready to play.

Say the match is scheduled for 9 pm. At match time, Sandbagger is standing on the court, ready to play. Opponent is stuck in traffic and arrives at 9:25. By that time, the default will have been taken by Sandbagger's captain.

Well, if Sandbagger is ineligible because he is playing 3.5 when he is really a 4.0, Sandbagger's team does not have an eligible player standing on the court such that the 15-minute default period can begin to run. So when Opponent shows up at 9:25, Opponent is entitled to win the match if there's no eligible opponent standing on the court at 9:40.

So there can be good reasons why it shouldn't automatically be a double-default, in our league anyway.
 
athiker

athiker

Hall of Fame
Cindysphinx said:
Consider this.

In our area, a player defaults if he/she shows up more than 15 minutes late. You don't start the clock running on the 15 minutes until one player is on the court ready to play.

Say the match is scheduled for 9 pm. At match time, Sandbagger is standing on the court, ready to play. Opponent is stuck in traffic and arrives at 9:25. By that time, the default will have been taken by Sandbagger's captain.

Well, if Sandbagger is ineligible because he is playing 3.5 when he is really a 4.0, Sandbagger's team does not have an eligible player standing on the court such that the 15-minute default period can begin to run. So when Opponent shows up at 9:25, Opponent is entitled to win the match if there's no eligible opponent standing on the court at 9:40.

So there can be good reasons why it shouldn't automatically be a double-default, in our league anyway.
Click to expand...

Interesting point. I hadn't thought of that circumstance. I'm certainly not going to lose sleep over the DQ'd player's team having to take a loss despite what I wrote above.
 
J

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
Cindysphinx said:
Consider this.

In our area, a player defaults if he/she shows up more than 15 minutes late. You don't start the clock running on the 15 minutes until one player is on the court ready to play.

Say the match is scheduled for 9 pm. At match time, Sandbagger is standing on the court, ready to play. Opponent is stuck in traffic and arrives at 9:25. By that time, the default will have been taken by Sandbagger's captain.

Well, if Sandbagger is ineligible because he is playing 3.5 when he is really a 4.0, Sandbagger's team does not have an eligible player standing on the court such that the 15-minute default period can begin to run. So when Opponent shows up at 9:25, Opponent is entitled to win the match if there's no eligible opponent standing on the court at 9:40.

So there can be good reasons why it shouldn't automatically be a double-default, in our league anyway.
Click to expand...

It's still a Double Default.

You dont become an illegible player until AFTER that whole occurrence when you later get 3 strikes.

So at the time the sandbagger was eligible to play so the late player still loses.

You may go back in time and take that win away from the sandbagger, but you cant travel back in time and say you didnt have a eligible player there.

A default is a default, either way.... Nobody deserves to win that one.
 
J

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
BlueTennis said:
so this ended up happening...

the final team score was 2-2 but the winning team was determined by sets won. here's the score card:

http://www.ustanorcal.com/scorecard.asp?id=256408&l=5101:780
Click to expand...

That means there was a double default.

For whatever reason tennislink scores those like that as well.

They dont count it as a loss for either team, but it's not a win either, but since you only count wins in the standings, it's as good as a loss....
 
J

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
J_R_B said:
It was really an unfortunate situation all around. This guy self-rated at 3.5 in order to join a team his brother was on. Then, he joined a 4.0 team, too, without realizing that doing so would definitely get him DQ'd from 3.5. As soon as he played his 3rd 4.0 match, he was (unsurprisingly...) DQ'd and his 3.5 results were overturned, which actually cost his brother's team in a tight race for the playoffs.
Click to expand...

Sounds unfortunate, but it's good because it would be nice if we could keep people from rating below where they should be.

Especially after the latest supposed "clean up" of the ratings.
 
A

amarone

Semi-Pro
J_R_B said:
It was really an unfortunate situation all around. This guy self-rated at 3.5 in order to join a team his brother was on. Then, he joined a 4.0 team, too, without realizing that doing so would definitely get him DQ'd from 3.5.
Click to expand...
It is only definite if he proves himself to be a good 4.0 player and therefore should not have self-rated at 3.5. Playing 4.0 does not get you DQed if you are genuinely a 3.5 player - you simply lose most of your matches.

It sounds like the system worked perfectly - a player self-rated himself too low and got DQed. Nothing unfortunate about that.
 
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