Dealing With A Court Three Default

[Cindysphinx]

I had an unusual situation when I was substitute captaining a Mixed 7.0 match.

My captain had told me to have our line-up be:

M1, F1
M2, F2
M3, F3

When it was time to exchange line-ups, opposing captain handed me a scorecard with Court Three as a default (our local rules require that Court Three always be the court that is defaulted).

Meanwhile, M2 still hadn't shown up. So I had 2 men and 3 women, but I didn't have the pair I had designated for Court Two.

If M2 doesn't show up at all, do I have to default that court so that only Court One gets played?

Or can I move up my original Court Three to play Court Two?

Or can I change my line-up to play M3 and F2 on Court Two because F3 has a knee injury and doesn't want to play if she can avoid it?

I had no idea what my "rights" were, as it didn't seem fair that only one match would get played when we had 5 players available. Any ideas how this should have been handled?

Post-script: As it turned out, the other captain and I agreed that I could change my line-up to put whoever on Court Two (geez, that's the least she could do after failing to give us advance notice of a default). By the end of the warm-up, the opposing Court Two player also had fail to show up, so they defaulted Court Two and Three (which is a team match default).

 

[tennis-n-sc]

Cindy, here each local has a slightly different version of the handling of your situation. Generally, once line-ups are exchanged, they are set. But I have found most captains to be very accomodating in altering the line-up for no-shows. But as the match gains importance, the accomodations become fewer. I try not even exchange my line-up until all my players are present. You'll find this is stringently enforced at state and sectional playoffs. But I think you all handled it sportingly.

 

[raiden031]

If you have to exchange lineups, I don't know why you would risk writing in M2 before he even shows up. If I was acting captain, and I had to exchange the lineup, I would put your M3 guy in the lineup as Court 2, and tell the M2 guy that he's got to sit out.

 

[Cindysphinx]

If you have to exchange lineups, I don't know why you would risk writing in M2 before he even shows up. If I was acting captain, and I had to exchange the lineup, I would put your M3 guy in the lineup as Court 2, and tell the M2 guy that he's got to sit out.

This is a good point.

I tell my own ladies team players to arrive no later than 30 minutes early. Then I have time to get on the cell phone and see what is going on, and I start calling about 20-25 minutes before the match.

My mixed captain tells us to arrive 15 minutes early. I think this is a mistake; you need your players there early so you can have time to sort out problems. Fifteen minutes isn't enough, IMHO.

By the time I found M2's phone number and called and got his office answering machine, it was time to exchange line-ups. I kind of figured that if M2 didn't show, the rules say that Court Three gets defaulted so we couldn't default Court Two, so M3 and F3 would play Court Two if it came to that.

But I was just guessing. It would have been nice to have some time to actually look at the rule, but too much was going on.

The other thing is that, as substitute captain who happened to be playing Court Three as I was, I didn't want to appear grabby and kick F2 to the curb. It is possible that my captain thinks F2 is stronger than F3 (me). I have never been authorized by my captain to use my judgment on line-up questions, although perhaps this is implicit. He e-mails me two match scorecards, one blank and one filled in, which kind of suggests he wants his line-up to be the way he sets it.

As it turns out, M2 did show up. About 15 minutes late. Because he thought the match started at 8:30 instead of 8.

 

[Islandtennis]

As tennis n said, each local league should have rules regarding this. Here by rule, you would win court 3 by default and the other team would win court 2 by default if you formally exchanged lineups. In actuality, normally the two captains would agree to double default court 3 and play court two with the people available. The only case where that doesn't occur is when you expect "Susie" to arrive to play on court 2 and she doesn't in the allowed time frame. I know with your matches being time that you do not have the luxury of waiting around to start the match.

 

[catfish]

Cindy, here each local has a slightly different version of the handling of your situation. Generally, once line-ups are exchanged, they are set. But I have found most captains to be very accomodating in altering the line-up for no-shows. But as the match gains importance, the accomodations become fewer. I try not even exchange my line-up until all my players are present. You'll find this is stringently enforced at state and sectional playoffs. But I think you all handled it sportingly.

Ditto. Never fill out your line-up sheet until all your players are there. You never know who may get stuck in traffic, or at work, etc. It is a USTA National regulation that defaults should be from the bottom up, so all captains really should wait until all players are at the court before they exchange line-ups. All of that being said, most captains do accommodate when a situation like yours happens.

Also, if a default is known in advance, the captain should let their opponents know that #3 will be a default. I get really aggravated when captains don't let you know in advance. Players get really upset when they've paid babysitters, left work early, or taken off work to play the match.

 

[Cindysphinx]

But if you double-default Court Three and then split the remaining courts, who wins the team match?

 

[JavierLW]

I had an unusual situation when I was substitute captaining a Mixed 7.0 match.

My captain had told me to have our line-up be:

M1, F1
M2, F2
M3, F3

When it was time to exchange line-ups, opposing captain handed me a scorecard with Court Three as a default (our local rules require that Court Three always be the court that is defaulted).

Meanwhile, M2 still hadn't shown up. So I had 2 men and 3 women, but I didn't have the pair I had designated for Court Two.

If M2 doesn't show up at all, do I have to default that court so that only Court One gets played?

Or can I move up my original Court Three to play Court Two?

Or can I change my line-up to play M3 and F2 on Court Two because F3 has a knee injury and doesn't want to play if she can avoid it?

I had no idea what my "rights" were, as it didn't seem fair that only one match would get played when we had 5 players available. Any ideas how this should have been handled?

Post-script: As it turned out, the other captain and I agreed that I could change my line-up to put whoever on Court Two (geez, that's the least she could do after failing to give us advance notice of a default). By the end of the warm-up, the opposing Court Two player also had fail to show up, so they defaulted Court Two and Three (which is a team match default).

It probally totally depends on your specific league rules, but in ours we are not allowed to exchange lineups until everyone is there.

But when we get out on the court (especially in the Men's league here) all sorts of agreements are made sometimes.

Ive only had a player not show up once (other than just being 5-10 minutes late), and the other captain let me rearrange my lineup. (I hadnt seen his lineup so it was okay for him) (this was in men's)

I offered to put the no-show in the defaultable position and told the captain that if he shows up and your guy wants to play that's fine, but if you want a default that's fine too, it's up to you. (it was extremely late at this point)

We have a 15 minute late rule here. If someone is over 15 minutes late the other captain has 3 choices:

1) Do nothing

2) Dock them 2 games

3) Win by Default (nobody does this)

I usually choose to do nothing, but there have been times (when we are scheduled away and it's a real late match), that Ive made the other captain suit up and play instead of the guy he's waiting for if it gets too far beyond 20 minutes. (if they have an extra person sitting around)

 

[Cindysphinx]

Ditto. Never fill out your line-up sheet until all your players are there. You never know who may get stuck in traffic, or at work, etc. It is a USTA National regulation that defaults should be from the bottom up, so all captains really should wait until all players are at the court before they exchange line-ups. All of that being said, most captains do accommodate when a situation like yours happens.

Also, if a default is known in advance, the captain should let their opponents know that #3 will be a default. I get really aggravated when captains don't let you know in advance. Players get really upset when they've paid babysitters, left work early, or taken off work to play the match.

Wait. If it is a national rule that defaults are from the bottom up, then I can't default Court Two. So the two people listed on Court Three would play Court Two.

This seems contrary to what IslandTennis said . . . What gives, if we're all dealing with the same national rule?

 

[Cindysphinx]

Javier, are you sure you are "not allowed to exchange line-ups" until everyone is there?

Such a rule wouldn't make sense. You can always put absent players in your line-up on Court Three (or any other court with knowledge that players may have to shuffle court assignments should a player on a higher court fail to show).

Here, you must exchange no later than 5 minutes before the match. ****iness is punished by loss of toss and one game, then loss of two games, then team default.

 

[JavierLW]

Ditto. Never fill out your line-up sheet until all your players are there. You never know who may get stuck in traffic, or at work, etc. It is a USTA National regulation that defaults should be from the bottom up, so all captains really should wait until all players are at the court before they exchange line-ups. All of that being said, most captains do accommodate when a situation like yours happens.

Also, if a default is known in advance, the captain should let their opponents know that #3 will be a default. I get really aggravated when captains don't let you know in advance. Players get really upset when they've paid babysitters, left work early, or taken off work to play the match.

Actually I think you should have your lineup ready before you get to the match. It's not totally fair to fill it out once you've seen who the other team brought with them. (what has happened to us on a few occasions, is the other team will gather in a circle, look at us and discuss how to make a lineup usually way past the time that we were supposed to start)

Bring plenty of blank lineups. And of course sometimes it's good to have an extra in case the other absentee captain didnt even bring one.

My players hate when they win by default too. It's never a good sign, when they havent even played yet, and I walk over to congradulate them. (sort of making light of it, but they usually arent too happy) I think teams should get fined for each individual default. Maybe just for the cost of the court (if it's the opposing team).

 

[Cindysphinx]

Actually I think you should have your lineup ready before you get to the match. It's not totally fair to fill it out once you've seen who the other team brought with them. (what has happened to us on a few occasions, is the other team will gather in a circle, look at us and discuss how to make a lineup usually way past the time that we were supposed to start)

Huh?

It's completely and totally fair to fill out your line-up based on who you see wandering in the lobby. If you don't want to show your hand, bring extra players or have your people wait in their cars or something.

I don't do pay attention to who shows up on the opposing team because I don't know lots of opposing players by sight and I only have six players there anyway. But other captains do it. So long as they exchange in a timely fashion, I don't care.

 

[JavierLW]

Javier, are you sure you are "not allowed to exchange line-ups" until everyone is there?

Such a rule wouldn't make sense. You can always put absent players in your line-up on Court Three (or any other court with knowledge that players may have to shuffle court assignments should a player on a higher court fail to show).

Here, you must exchange no later than 5 minutes before the match. ****iness is punished by loss of toss and one game, then loss of two games, then team default.

I agree with you, part of that is a dumb rule. Maybe not for the reason you're getting at though, but just for the logistics of it.

Here's the funny part about our rule:

1) You CAN NOT exchange lineups until everyone shows up

2) You MUST exchange lineups before when the match is supposed to start

3) You are not LATE until 15 minutes after the match and like Ive said, most captains are not going to do anything about it. (if it's over 30 minutes that's a diffrent story) If you think some team that doesnt call out a illegal player is a jerk, it's a widely held belief here that if you default someone who showed up late, you are a real jerk.

Anyway those 3 things dont really work together which is why many times we just make our own agreements.

You have to accept the fact that in our league players are going to be late. Given that fact, I usually make sure I have their cell phone number and if I can confirm that they are at least on their way and not lost or something, I usually go ahead and exchange lineups. If not though, then I just wait for them to arrive, or if it gets too late, then I just rearrange it and exchange it.

I had a team once that insisted on exchange lineups, but then didnt know if someone was showing up so they had to rearrange their whole lineup. Luckily they were nice and let me change mine (which I didnt in this particular case), otherwise I dont think that would of been fair.

Most of us are in this league to play tennis, and most of us work in the real world until 5pm or 530pm, and some of these matches are an hour or more drive away. So everyone understands that people will be sort of late from time to time and if we know they are on their way it's not a big deal.

I have another friend who is a retiree on a 60 and over renegade league, where if you are late there (even 10 minutes) you probally wont be playing much on their team anymore. But those guys dont have to work anymore so they have no real reason to be late. It all depends on what everyone's situation is as to what's acceptable.

 

[catfish]

Wait. If it is a national rule that defaults are from the bottom up, then I can't default Court Two. So the two people listed on Court Three would play Court Two.

This seems contrary to what IslandTennis said . . . What gives, if we're all dealing with the same national rule?

This is why you shouldn't exchange line-ups before all your players are there. It avoids a lot of confusion and controversy. However, lets say you exchange line-ups, start match #1 and match #3, and one of your #2 doubles players isn't there yet. You go ahead and start the match, and #2 doubles never shows up. In that case, the other 2 matches stand as played and #2 is a default. If both captains allow the matches to start out of sequence, it's certainly OK.

You may find it helpful to go to the link below and see page 16 discussing starting matches our of sequence. BTW, this "Rule Interpretations" document is a great document for all captains to be familiar with. It is on the TennisLink website under USTA National Rules and regs.

http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_13_15309.pdf?11/30/2006%207:40:46%20PM

 

[JavierLW]

Huh?

It's completely and totally fair to fill out your line-up based on who you see wandering in the lobby. If you don't want to show your hand, bring extra players or have your people wait in their cars or something.

I don't do pay attention to who shows up on the opposing team because I don't know lots of opposing players by sight and I only have six players there anyway. But other captains do it. So long as they exchange in a timely fashion, I don't care.

Right, that's the point.

In most cases here if the other captain has to fill out his lineup on the fly, he's not doing it at the appropriate time. I have never seen this here once where someone did this and it wasnt past match time already. If seen other teams warm up for a good 30 minutes until match time only to THEN start filling out their lineup.

Besides if you dont bring a lineup with you most of the time, that's just a mark of poor planning. It means you havent put any thought into what your lineup should be until you finally get there to play. (I know a lot of captains like this) (and Im talking about when they have to think about it and fill it out on the fly, some people actually know what it should be, and just write it in when they get there, that's diffrent)

It might be diffrent in mixed though if you know who plays with who and it's totally obvious.

 

[tennis-n-sc]

But if you double-default Court Three and then split the remaining courts, who wins the team match?

My wife's team actually had this happen in a 5 line match. Line 5 was double defaulted. The two teams split the remaining four lines. TennisLink gave the match to the opposing team based on the number of sets lost. I don't know if your rules would allow the same but it stands to reason. Somebody has to win.

 

[catfish]

Right, that's the point.

In most cases here if the other captain has to fill out his lineup on the fly, he's not doing it at the appropriate time. I have never seen this here once where someone did this and it wasnt past match time already. If seen other teams warm up for a good 30 minutes until match time only to THEN start filling out their lineup.

Besides if you dont bring a lineup with you most of the time, that's just a mark of poor planning. It means you havent put any thought into what your lineup should be until you finally get there to play. (I know a lot of captains like this) (and Im talking about when they have to think about it and fill it out on the fly, some people actually know what it should be, and just write it in when they get there, that's diffrent)

It might be diffrent in mixed though if you know who plays with who and it's totally obvious.

I disagree with your poor planning comment. Sometimes that's true, but it really depends on the captain. When I am a captain, I know exactly who will play and I have my line-up planned. However, I don't write it down on the scoresheet until everyone is there. That way I can default from the bottom up if someone doesn't show up. All captains on teams that I play on do the same thing, and every match starts on time. I personally have never had a problem. Most captains use the TennisLink scoresheets so they know who is on each roster. The actual line-up exchange only takes a minute or two when TL scoresheets are used. However, I do hear about problems from time to time and they are usually from captains not understanding the rules or getting into discussions/arguments about what the rules are. Some captains try to make-up rules, which is always funny. The best one I heard about was one captain telling the other that it was a rule that her line-up had to be written down before she got out of her car. The other captain replied (dead pan), "I rode my bike to the court."

Also, I don't care if the other team sees who my players are. It makes no difference to me since I'm going to play the same people anyway. I don't have people show up dressed out if they aren't going to play. Most of them are too busy for that. I hope my players are all at the courts warming up 30 minutes before match time. (Most of them are.)

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Also, if a default is known in advance, the captain should let their opponents know that #3 will be a default. I get really aggravated when captains don't let you know in advance. Players get really upset when they've paid babysitters, left work early, or taken off work to play the match.

I believe you should talk to your players about being ready anyways. I've seen grievances where a captain told another captain in advance that they MAY have to default a match, and then at the match, someone apparently became available at the last minute. Unfortunately, the default usually goes to the team that didn't have their players there. We deal with too many lawyers, and the key word was MAY in their e-mail.

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

My wife's team actually had this happen in a 5 line match. Line 5 was double defaulted. The two teams split the remaining four lines. TennisLink gave the match to the opposing team based on the number of sets lost. I don't know if your rules would allow the same but it stands to reason. Somebody has to win.

The team match is always determined by individual matches won (in this case a tie), then by sets lost, and finally by games lost.

 

[kylebarendrick]

I would never inform my opponents in advance that I planned to default a line. This would allow the opposing captain to potentially reshuffle their lineup to take stronger players from the now defaulted line and use them elsewhere.

 

[tennis-n-sc]

The team match is always determined by individual matches won (in this case a tie), then by sets lost, and finally by games lost.

Scores entered into TennisLink do this. Other team matches are decided by local rules, I suppose.

 

[catfish]

I would never inform my opponents in advance that I planned to default a line. This would allow the opposing captain to potentially reshuffle their lineup to take stronger players from the now defaulted line and use them elsewhere.

I disagree. So does USTA National. (See below what I copied and pasted from page 17 of the USTA National Rule Interpretations.) It's common courtesy to let the other captain know. Lots of players drive long distances, re-arrange work schedules, hire babysitters, etc. to play matches. It's truly rude and inconsiderate not to let them know when you know in advance. If you let me know in advance that you are forfeiting #2 singles or #3 doubles, I still don't know who you will play in your other positions. I could re-shuffle all I want and still either win or lose. My chances of winning are better since you have already lost one match, but that's how it goes.

1/1/98Updated9/23/03 How should “known defaults” be handled both at the local level and at championships? In the spirit of good sportsmanship and fair play, the opposing team(s) should be advised of a known default. The defaulting captain will still be able to designate at what position (2nd singles or 3rd doubles) a known default will occur.

Again, here's the link to the document on the USTA website.

http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_13_15309.pdf?11/30/2006%207:40:46%20PM

 

[Cindysphinx]

I would never inform my opponents in advance that I planned to default a line. This would allow the opposing captain to potentially reshuffle their lineup to take stronger players from the now defaulted line and use them elsewhere.

Boo. Hiss.

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Scores entered into TennisLink do this. Other team matches are decided by local rules, I suppose.

Unfortunately at a District / Sectional / National event, a lot of players don't know the order that determines which team wins or advances.

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

I disagree. So does USTA National. (See below what I copied and pasted from page 17 of the USTA National Rule Interpretations.) It's common courtesy to let the other captain know. Lots of players drive long distances, re-arrange work schedules, hire babysitters, etc. to play matches. It's truly rude and inconsiderate not to let them know when you know in advance. If you let me know in advance that you are forfeiting #2 singles or #3 doubles, I still don't know who you will play in your other positions. I could re-shuffle all I want and still either win or lose. My chances of winning are better since you have already lost one match, but that's how it goes.

1/1/98Updated9/23/03 How should “known defaults” be handled both at the local level and at championships? In the spirit of good sportsmanship and fair play, the opposing team(s) should be advised of a known default. The defaulting captain will still be able to designate at what position (2nd singles or 3rd doubles) a known default will occur.

Again, here's the link to the document on the USTA website.

http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_13_15309.pdf?11/30/2006%207:40:46%20PM

Yes, if it is a known default, then the captain should let the other captain know. But when dealing with lawyers, be careful to read any wording that leaves ambiguity.

Since defaults go from bottom up, they included the paraphrase (2nd singles or 3rd doubles) because the wording has been argued by those lawyers (again).

 

[Hal]

I disagree.

You can disagree, but the wording in the Q&A that you cited is not binding.

Thank goodness I have people that show up for matches so I haven't had to deal with this situation. However, I have been on the other side. Some captains let me know ahead of time, and some do not. I sure appreciate the advanced notice, and always ask if that means my player does not need to show up for us to get the point. For those that don't tell me in advance, I'm not happy that I have a person sitting on the bench, but that's the way it goes. As captain, I am normally the one to sit out (if they tell me before line-ups are exchanged).

 

[JavierLW]

I would never inform my opponents in advance that I planned to default a line. This would allow the opposing captain to potentially reshuffle their lineup to take stronger players from the now defaulted line and use them elsewhere.

I hear what you are saying, but I dont agree.

For one, you should never have to present a default. Unless something really unexpected occurs.

I think it's undesirable enough that you are even presenting a default that the least you can do is let the other team know ahead of time. If you dont like that they rearrange their lineup because of it then you should try harder not to default any matches.

(Im not talking about the rule though in this case, Im just talking about what I think is just common courtesy)

 

[catfish]

You can disagree, but the wording in the Q&A that you cited is not binding.

Thank goodness I have people that show up for matches so I haven't had to deal with this situation. However, I have been on the other side. Some captains let me know ahead of time, and some do not. I sure appreciate the advanced notice, and always ask if that means my player does not need to show up for us to get the point. For those that don't tell me in advance, I'm not happy that I have a person sitting on the bench, but that's the way it goes. As captain, I am normally the one to sit out (if they tell me before line-ups are exchanged).

It's my understanding that these rule interpretations are binding. The first page on the Q&A states: The questions and answers in this document are interpretations or clarifications of the USTA League Tennis Regulations. The sections are required to abide by these interpretations.

We have very large USTA leagues in our area, and thankfully most captains are very considerate of each other and give advance notice in the case of a known default. In cases where captains could have given advance notice and didn't, players tend to get most upset when they have missed work or hired a babysitter. I'm not sure if any grievances were filed, but any I'm sure any grievance committee would see that Q&A rule interpretation and abide by it. They could sanction the captain who disregarded the rule interpretation.

Again, it doesn't happen that often. Most captains are considerate and treat other captains how they would want to be treated.

 

[Hal]

It's my understanding that these rule interpretations are binding. The first page on the Q&A states: The questions and answers in this document are interpretations or clarifications of the USTA League Tennis Regulations. The sections are required to abide by these interpretations.

We have very large USTA leagues in our area, and thankfully most captains are very considerate of each other and give advance notice in the case of a known default. In cases where captains could have given advance notice and didn't, players tend to get most upset when they have missed work or hired a babysitter. I'm not sure if any grievances were filed, but any I'm sure any grievance committee would see that Q&A rule interpretation and abide by it. They could sanction the captain who disregarded the rule interpretation.

Again, it doesn't happen that often. Most captains are considerate and treat other captains how they would want to be treated.

The reason that I say this is not binding is that the Q&A uses the word "should", rather than "must". I'm not a lawyer, but from my experience, "should" makes it more of a guideline than a rule. Also, you would need to prove that the other captain "Knew" that their player was not going to show up with enough time to warn you. For example, maybe he knew, but was trying to find someone else, etc... This is a very fuzzy area which, IMO, makes it impossible for a grievance committee to take action. They normally have a legal council present at their meetings and are warned (for liability reasons) against taking action on these types of issues.

 

[catfish]

The reason that I say this is not binding is that the Q&A uses the word "should", rather than "must". I'm not a lawyer, but from my experience, "should" makes it more of a guideline than a rule. Also, you would need to prove that the other captain "Knew" that their player was not going to show up with enough time to warn you. For example, maybe he knew, but was trying to find someone else, etc... This is a very fuzzy area which, IMO, makes it impossible for a grievance committee to take action. They normally have a legal council present at their meetings and are warned (for liability reasons) against taking action on these types of issues.

True. Grievance committees find it tough to make decisions sometimes since it's hard to prove anything and so much is done by word of mouth. More and more captains use email these days, and it helps when they document their conversations with a confirmation email. It helps everyone in case of a problem, plus it helps all of us remember match times and locations when we see it in writing.