I'll get this thread started by naming five:
Evert-Navratilova
Evert-Austin
Borg-McEnroe
Sampras-Agassi
Graf-Seles
I agree with Evert-Navratilova of course, the greatest of all rivalries. Evert-Austin would have been even better had Austin played the French Open in 1979 and 1980, and of course had Austin's career not fizzled out so sadly with injuries starting in 1981.
Borg-McEnroe was also great, but like Evert-Austin did not become all it could have been due to Borg's sad and premature retirement.
Sampras-Agassi was very good, but probably the weakest of all those 4 rivarlies. I never really felt Agassi was really at Sampras's level, Sampras had to play down to Agassi a bit. That is just my opinion though. In any case Agassi did not have a consistent enough year, with enough years of he and Sampras both at or near the very top of the game for it to be a truly great rivalry.
Seles-Graf was also great, but too sadly never fulfilled its potential due to that awful Gunther Parche.
Evert-Goolagong was pretty good too, not at the level of Evert-Navratilova or even Evert-Austin, but a pretty good rivalry.
Court-King was a superb rivalry.
Connors-Borg too was also a great rivalry.
This one surprised me !
McEnroe, John 15-21 Lendl, Ivan
16-Feb-59 7-Mar-60
Wiesbaden, Germany Ostrava, Czechoslovakia
New York, NY Goshen, CT
5'11'' (180 cm) 6'2'' (187 cm)
165 lbs (75 kg) 175 lbs (79 kg)
Left-handed Right-handed
1978 1978
0/0 0/0
0 0
76 94
$12,552,132 $21,262,417
ATP, Davis Cup and Grand Slam Main Draw Results
1992 Montreal / Toronto
Toronto, Canada Hard Q Lendl 6-2 6-4
Stats
1991 Long Island
NY, U.S.A. Hard S Lendl 6-3 7-5
Stats
1990 London / Queen's Club
England Grass S Lendl 6-2 6-4
1990 Toronto Indoor
Canada Carpet S Lendl 6-3 6-2
1989 Masters
NY, U.S.A. Carpet RR Lendl 6-3 6-3
1989 Montreal / Toronto
Montreal, Canada Hard F Lendl 6-1 6-3
1989 Dallas WCT
TX, U.S.A. Carpet S McEnroe 6-7 7-6 6-2 7-5
1989 Australian Open
Australia Hard Q Lendl 7-6 6-2 7-6
1988 Roland Garros
France Clay R16 Lendl 6-7 7-6 6-4 6-4
1987 US Open
NY, U.S.A. Hard Q Lendl 6-3 6-3 6-4
1987 Stratton Mountain
VT, U.S.A. Hard F Lendl WEA
1985 US Open
NY, U.S.A. Hard F Lendl 7-6 6-3 6-4
1985 Montreal / Toronto
Montreal, Canada Hard F McEnroe 7-5 6-3
1985 Stratton Mountain
VT, U.S.A. Hard F McEnroe 7-6 6-2
1985 World Team Cup
Germany Clay F Lendl 6-7 7-6 6-3
1985 Forest Hills
NY, U.S.A. Clay F Lendl 6-3 6-3
1984 Masters
NY, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 7-5 6-0 6-4
1984 US Open
NY, U.S.A. Hard F McEnroe 6-3 6-4 6-1
1984 Roland Garros
France Clay F Lendl 3-6 2-6 6-4 7-5 7-5
1984 World Team Cup
Germany Clay F McEnroe 6-3 6-2
1984 Forest Hills WCT
NY, U.S.A. Clay F McEnroe 6-4 6-2
1984 Brussels
Belgium Carpet F McEnroe 6-1 6-3
1984 Philadelphia
PA, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 6-3 3-6 6-3 7-6
1983 Masters
NY, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 6-3 6-4 6-4
1983 San Francisco
CA, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 3-6 7-6 6-4
1983 Wimbledon
England Grass S McEnroe 7-6 6-4 6-4
1983 Dallas WCT
TX, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 6-2 4-6 6-3 6-7 7-6
1983 Philadelphia
PA, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 4-6 7-6 6-4 6-3
1982 Masters
NY, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 6-4 6-4 6-2
1982 US Open
NY, U.S.A. Hard S Lendl 6-4 6-4 7-6
1982 Montreal / Toronto
Toronto, Canada Hard S Lendl 6-4 6-4
1982 Dallas WCT
TX, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 6-2 3-6 6-3 6-3
1981 Masters
NY, U.S.A. Carpet S Lendl 6-4 6-2
1981 TCH V USA QF
U.S.A. Hard RR Lendl 6-4 14-12 7-5
1981 Roland Garros
France Clay Q Lendl 6-4 6-4 7-5
1980 US Open
NY, U.S.A. Hard Q McEnroe 4-6 6-3 6-2 7-5
1980 Milan
Italy Carpet S McEnroe 6-3 1-6 6-2
Mac didn't exactly dominate Lendl in the early going. In fact, when Mac was already clear world Nr.1 in 1981, he was 0-3 down in hth with Lendl. He lost a lot of matches to Lend, before he won Philadelphia in 1983 on the advice of Don Budge, who told Mac, to go to the net on all balls, even on Lendls serves, and attack every ball. Then he won a streak of matches, before Lendl turned the tide again with his 85 Flushing win.
Sampras-Agassi was very good, but probably the weakest of all those 4 rivarlies. I never really felt Agassi was really at Sampras's level, Sampras had to play down to Agassi a bit. That is just my opinion though. In any case Agassi did not have a consistent enough year, with enough years of he and Sampras both at or near the very top of the game for it to be a truly great rivalry.
Everyone has the right to their opinion but WTH are you talking about? How did Sampras "play down"? Some of their matches were air tight. It was great to watch two players with so different games go at each other. Agassi wasn't on Sampras' level but he is one of the greatest ever. The guy has a career GS plus a gold medal. Sampras didn't play down for Agassi. If anything, facing Agassi elevated Sampras' game.
Again it is just my opinion, you dont have to agree which is fine. I never felt watching Agassi play Sampras that he is in his league at all, and that Sampras had to either be a bit off, or Agassi be a bit lucky in scraping out of a series of tough situations, for it to be a great match. I personally dont think Agassi's combined physical, technical, and mental abilities are in the same league as any of Sampras, Federer, Borg, McEnroe, Connors, Lendl in fact, my personal feeling is he a great player, but a notch down from all of those guys. I believe the marketing campaigns surrounding Agassi have created some inflated perceptions of him, and I just dont get into that sort of thing or allow it to color my judgement. I would have much rather have watched Federer or McEnroe in their primes play Sampras then Agassi personally, but sadly the birthdays did not coincide for that to happen, so I guess that was the best that was left.
I certainly dont value the Olympic Gold medal highly in my evaluations of players, most players regard the Olympics as less important then a Masters title. In fact to be honest, the only people I recall bringing up the Olympic Gold as being that meaningful an achievement, are those whose favorite player won it(somebody who supports Capriati, Agassi, or Graf, for example). Agassi does have a career grand slam, but to me that in no way makes him superior to any of Sampras, Federer, Connors, Lendl, Borg or McEnroe who dont. All of those guys have had periods of being a dominant player, Agassi never truly did since even during her period of winning 3 of 4 slams he was 2-4 vs Sampras, and 90% likely would not have won neither Wimbledon or the U.S Open had Sampras not pulled out of the U.S Open with an injury at the last minute.
The matches between Sampras and Agassi which were truly competitive Sampras either seemed "off" to me, or Agassi was having to scrape out of countless holes and Sampras missing countless opportunities(eg-2001 U.S Open quarterfinal). I never felt you would watch matches both playing close to their best that were truly hotly contested. A match like the 1999 Wimbledon final is how they would typicaly compare both playing at or close to their best IMO, not exactly hotly contested.
Aside from all that though Agassi was not a consistent player at all. He had too many down years and was not at or near the top enough for it to have been a truly great rivalry. Evert vs Navratilova, Borg vs McEnroe, Borg vs Connors, Graf vs Seles, never had any time, let alone over half the time where one player allowed themselves to fall out of the Worlds top 5, sometimes lower then that. That is what makes it less of a rivalry to me, Agassi's ranking was sometimes affected by a certain degree of inactivity, but based on overall results he was not a top 10 calibre player in 1993(rankings wise he ended out of the top 20), was a top 2 player in 1994 and 1995, then not a top 5 calibre player in 1996, not a top 30 calibre player in 1997(rankings wise ended out of the top 100), not a top 5 calibre player in 1998, a top 2 player in 1999, and not a top 5 calibre player in 2000. Not nearly consistently enough up there with Sampras to allow for a truly great rivalry like those others were both players were much more consistent champions who stayed at or near the top year after year.
I agree with you on some of the points you made but not all. Agassi was inconsistent for a good part of his career until late in his career and Sampras was far more consistent throughout his whole career but I think you are also underestimating Agassi's talent. With regards to their rivalry I think it was more of a case of Sampras having Agassi's number rather than Sampras being WAY better than Agassi. There is no denying that Sampras was the better player, but not to the degree you are making it out to be.
This one surprised me !
McEnroe, John 15-21 Lendl, Ivan
16-Feb-59 7-Mar-60
Wiesbaden, Germany Ostrava, Czechoslovakia
New York, NY Goshen, CT
5'11'' (180 cm) 6'2'' (187 cm)
165 lbs (75 kg) 175 lbs (79 kg)
Left-handed Right-handed
1978 1978
0/0 0/0
0 0
76 94
$12,552,132 $21,262,417
ATP, Davis Cup and Grand Slam Main Draw Results
1992 Montreal / Toronto
Toronto, Canada Hard Q Lendl 6-2 6-4
Stats
1991 Long Island
NY, U.S.A. Hard S Lendl 6-3 7-5
Stats
1990 London / Queen's Club
England Grass S Lendl 6-2 6-4
1990 Toronto Indoor
Canada Carpet S Lendl 6-3 6-2
1989 Masters
NY, U.S.A. Carpet RR Lendl 6-3 6-3
1989 Montreal / Toronto
Montreal, Canada Hard F Lendl 6-1 6-3
1989 Dallas WCT
TX, U.S.A. Carpet S McEnroe 6-7 7-6 6-2 7-5
1989 Australian Open
Australia Hard Q Lendl 7-6 6-2 7-6
1988 Roland Garros
France Clay R16 Lendl 6-7 7-6 6-4 6-4
1987 US Open
NY, U.S.A. Hard Q Lendl 6-3 6-3 6-4
1987 Stratton Mountain
VT, U.S.A. Hard F Lendl WEA
1985 US Open
NY, U.S.A. Hard F Lendl 7-6 6-3 6-4
1985 Montreal / Toronto
Montreal, Canada Hard F McEnroe 7-5 6-3
1985 Stratton Mountain
VT, U.S.A. Hard F McEnroe 7-6 6-2
1985 World Team Cup
Germany Clay F Lendl 6-7 7-6 6-3
1985 Forest Hills
NY, U.S.A. Clay F Lendl 6-3 6-3
1984 Masters
NY, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 7-5 6-0 6-4
1984 US Open
NY, U.S.A. Hard F McEnroe 6-3 6-4 6-1
1984 Roland Garros
France Clay F Lendl 3-6 2-6 6-4 7-5 7-5
1984 World Team Cup
Germany Clay F McEnroe 6-3 6-2
1984 Forest Hills WCT
NY, U.S.A. Clay F McEnroe 6-4 6-2
1984 Brussels
Belgium Carpet F McEnroe 6-1 6-3
1984 Philadelphia
PA, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 6-3 3-6 6-3 7-6
1983 Masters
NY, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 6-3 6-4 6-4
1983 San Francisco
CA, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 3-6 7-6 6-4
1983 Wimbledon
England Grass S McEnroe 7-6 6-4 6-4
1983 Dallas WCT
TX, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 6-2 4-6 6-3 6-7 7-6
1983 Philadelphia
PA, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 4-6 7-6 6-4 6-3
1982 Masters
NY, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 6-4 6-4 6-2
1982 US Open
NY, U.S.A. Hard S Lendl 6-4 6-4 7-6
1982 Montreal / Toronto
Toronto, Canada Hard S Lendl 6-4 6-4
1982 Dallas WCT
TX, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 6-2 3-6 6-3 6-3
1981 Masters
NY, U.S.A. Carpet S Lendl 6-4 6-2
1981 TCH V USA QF
U.S.A. Hard RR Lendl 6-4 14-12 7-5
1981 Roland Garros
France Clay Q Lendl 6-4 6-4 7-5
1980 US Open
NY, U.S.A. Hard Q McEnroe 4-6 6-3 6-2 7-5
1980 Milan
Italy Carpet S McEnroe 6-3 1-6 6-2
Connors Mac was also a great rivalry.
Chris and Evonne were real rivals on grass. That is it. On all other surfaces it was a complete non rivalry.
And I wouldnt say beating Chris in 74 should be viewed as huge. Evert was ranked only #3 at the end of 74 behind King and Goolagong. She began to really dominate in 75.
Goolagong's 1980 Wimbledon final I agree was her greatest triumph since it was totally unexpected. She was way past her prime which was 1971-1976, and should have lost to both Mandlikova and Stove in earlier rounds. Fortunately for her Tracy Austin was overconfident going into their semifinal and isnt that strong on grass, and then Evert was complacent in the final and lackluster. Still a great effort to win one of the big 2 tournaments she could only manage to win 2 times in her whole career total (never winning the U.S Open of course), well past her prime.
Actually its the slow stuff, that offers better testimony to Evonne. Eyvonne did slightly worse than Martina. Evonne won 2 of 14, compared to Martina who won 3 of 13. Those are two of only 3 players who have more than one victory over Evert on clay ( oddly Manuala Maleeva). I think those are the only two who have bageled Evert on clay. Evonne also took her to three sets on 4 loosing occasions, Martina did so on 4 loosing occasions. both players went years without playing her too. while Evonne only played her once between '76 Open and '82 in Palm Beach. Martina did not see her across a clay court but once from the Open of 75 through to Amelia Island 1984!
Chris was fortunate she didnt meet Martina often on clay during Martina's prime years of 82-87. I believe they met exactly 5 times and in 3 of them Martina absolutely destroyed Chris, while Chris pulled off hard fought 3 set wins in the others. Contrast that to Goolagong who never beat Chris again on clay after 1973 which obviously isnt the same thing at all as after Chris first became #1, and was usually destroyed. I am in no way suggesting Martina is overall near Chris's level as a clay courter btw, but Martina in her prime was so formidable that even on clay she would either destroy Chris in victory or barely lose in defeat which is light years away from Evonne vs Chris on clay, where Evonne could occasionaly push in defeat and mostly get destroyed in defeat.
You are cherry picking your favorite years, excluding and including as it pleases, always the thing to do when the argument is weak. Evert had already beaten every human on the planet by 1973 on clay. Evonne beat her twice consecutively straight sets right before her 6 year streak. How weak do you suppose Evert was? Martina beat her AFTER Austin, Jaeger, and yes, that great clay courter Zina Garrison had already done it over the course of several years. Evert was no longer at her most dominant on clay.
Why would I want to cherry pick facts to favor Martina. If you actually think I am a Navratilova fan then that already shows how off base with reality you are. Martina is one of my least favorite players ever, and I always rooted for Chris hard to win if they played. I am only pointing out that 2-12 vs 3-13 aside nearly everyone would agree Martina was a MUCH bigger threat to Evert on clay than Goolagong was (or any other surface) and explained exactly why. You cant even begin to compare 2 wins over a developing World #4 (yeah I know no computer ranks, but she was clearly below Court, King, and Goolagong in results, seedings, etc..at that point) Chris and then never beating her again on the surface, to destroying a still close to her prime Chris in a French Open final, another tournament final, and a French Open semifinal.
And Chris was World #2 when Martina was beating her on clay, except for 1987 when she was World #3. As I mentioned she was only the #4 player in the World at best at the time Evonne got her only 2 wins. As for Chris having beaten everyone on clay by 1973 she was still regularly losing to Nancy Richey on clay up until that point too.
Goolagong only lost two more matches, had as many three setters as Martina did, and played her 7 times during her 6 years dominant streak. Martina played her 5. I agree Martina's record was slightly better in long run , but not enough to declare one a great rival and the other virtually none at all becasue she only was competition on a fast. She was more competition on clay than almost any one Evert met. 8 sets is a hell of a lot vs EVert between 73-83.
Martina though beat, in fact crushed, Evert in a French Open final and French Open semifinal both. That is a big difference from having your only two wins in the finals of other tournaments, even if tier 1 level events. And when Martina was at her best, Chris could not beat her easily on clay even once, which obviously wasnt the case with Evonne. We could debate forever but in my opinion Goolagong was nowhere near the threat to Evert on clay that Navratilova was. You obviously disagree.
Anyway it isnt just about clay. Lets say I concede Evert overall dominated even Navratilova on clay, despite that Navratilova has a better record vs Evert on clay than Goolagong does. Navratilova countered Everts overall dominance on clay by overall dominating Evert at both Wimbledon and the U.S Open where she is a perfect 7-0 against her in finals and 10-3 overall counting semifinals. Goolagong counters the complete dominance of Chris on clay and most other surfaces only by challenging (but certainly not dominating) her on grass, which is not nearly enough to come close to evening things out overall.
Goolagong was no more a rival to Evert than say Sanchez was to Graf. Challenging her closely on one surface (in the case of Sanchez-Graf that being clay, just as Goolagong-Evert it is grass), and being dominated on all the others. There was never any question Evert was always #1 throughout their rivalry (despite the stunning news many years later of Goolagong reaching #1 for 2 weeks) or who was the better player at any point in time.
You are comparing a rivalry of 28-8 with one of 26-12. Honestly Sanchez was only a rival on clay. Evonne has three wins each on grass, hard and carpet, two on clay. Not a big surface differential.
Sanchez beat Graf twice at the U.S Open on fast hard courts, both in the heart of Grafs prime, not when she was still a developing kid like Evonnes 2 wins over Chris on clay. She also has 2 other wins over Graf in hard court finals. Sanchez Vicario eclipsed Graf as the best player in the World in 1994, something Evonne never once did over Chris practically speaking. There were hardly any tournaments on grass by the time Graf played, but their 95 Wimbledon final is one of the all time classics.
Of course Goolagong was a better player than Sanchez overall but I dont think her rivalry with Evert was any better than Sanchez Vicario's vs Graf (neither were great or true rivalries anyway IMO which was my point).
Here are some of the matches Evert and Goolagong played on clay after Evonnes only 2 wins over a young Chris:
1974 Hilton Head semis: Chris won 6-2, 6-1
1975 Amelia Island final: Chris won 6-1, 6-1
1975 Hilton Head final: Chris won 6-1, 6-1
1975 U.S Open final: Chris won 5-7, 6-4, 6-2
1976 U.S Open final: Chris won 6-3, 6-0
1983 French Open 3rd round: Chris won 6-2, 6-2
There are probably a few others I am missing but on the whole I dont see any real battle there at all. The very occasional close match at most (still a certain loss), and mostly brutal smackdowns.
Now contrast that to Navratilova and Evert on clay:
1974 Italian final: Evert won 6-3, 6-3
1975 Amelia Island final: Evert won 7-5, 6-4
1975 Italian final: Evert won 6-1, 6-0
1975 French Open final: Evert won 2-6, 6-2, 6-1
1981 Amelia Island final: Evert won 6-0, 6-0
1984 Amelia Island final: Navratilova won 6-2, 6-0
1984 French Open final: Navratilova won 6-3, 6-1
1985 French Open final: Navratilova won 6-3, 6-7, 7-5
1986 French Open final: Evert won 2-6, 6-3, 6-3
1987 Houston final: Evert won 3-6, 6-1, 7-6
1987 French Open semis: Navratilova won 6-2, 6-2
1988 Houston final: Evert won 6-4, 6-0
Again I am probably missing a couple matches but the comparision makes it extremely clear. Navratilova even while still fat as a whale and lower ranked than Goolagong, especialy on clay, was even giving Evert closer matches more often than a peak Evonne on the surface in the mid 70s. And then when Navratilova really hit her stride she began delivering some thumpings to Evert on clay, the kind of which nobody else could ever dream of delivering to a 20 something Chris other than maybe Graf or Seles in their primes, while except for their final match Evert had to struggle hard for any win she got over Martina on clay. That is so far removed from the matchup between Evert and Goolagong on the surface, regardless that the W-L ratio is close.
Keep in mind too Evonne at her career peak as a reigning 2 time Slam Champion and the defacto previous year Player of the Year lost a French Open final to Billie Jean King of all people in easy straight sets.
John dominated Lendl in the early part of Lendl's career and so did Borg and Connors but then Lendl turned things around against Connors and Mac and wound up with winning records over both of them as he took over the men's game in the middle 80's.
First, of course you are missing some matches, of course you are cherry picking your time frames, spinning or dismissing results etc. The facts are exactly those I mentioned in posts 24, 26, and 28 without resorting to the above. I do not count some sets or matches and dismiss others, some results and dismiss others or spin with phrases such as 'fat as a whale'. I use the entire career. Sometimes you can tell the quality of an argument by the necessity to resort to such tactics. I am done.
Just thinking off hand 1990 and up
Sampras vs Rafter
Rafter Vs Agassi
Courier vs Edberg
Courier vs Agassi
Chang vs Edberg
Edberg vs Lendl
Lendl vs McEnroe
Safin vs Santoro
Agassi vs Hewitt
I loved some of those Rafter/Agassi matches. Even those Agassi won the majority of them, they had a number of memorable matches that I felt were higher quality than any Agassi/Sampras match. The problem with playing Sampras was his overpowering serve. When he was in trouble Pete could get aces or service winners while Rafter didn't have that weapon.
Thats true as Rafter was more of a tactical server and not a bomber (Rafter could bang it as well though when he wanted to). His Serve and Volley combo was just as effective as Sampras aces though. Especially in 98.
Another good Rafter rivalry was the Bruguera vs Rafter matches. Some real battles happened with those two before Rafter really came into his own.
Just thinking off hand 1990 and up
Sampras vs Rafter
Rafter Vs Agassi
Courier vs Edberg
Courier vs Agassi
Chang vs Edberg
Edberg vs Lendl
Lendl vs McEnroe
Safin vs Santoro
Agassi vs Hewitt
You are comparing a rivalry of 28-8 with one of 26-12. Honestly Sanchez was only a rival on clay. Evonne has three or more wins each on grass, carpet, two on clay. and hard. Not that big surface differential.