Bjorn Borg is the GOAT

nikdom · Jan 22, 2012

borg number one said:
Nikdom, no worries. It's just tennis talk. For me, Borg, Laver, Tilden, Sampras, Agassi, Federer, Nadal, Tomic..it's all interesting. When you know about all the history of the Game, it really makes even today's AO matches more interesting to watch and appreciate, but that's my opinion. My first coach played on the Tour along guys like Kramer, so even during my first lesson in the late 1970's I was immediately immersed in tennis history. He wouldn't even let me play with an oversized Prince when those first came out. I still talk to him to this day about Laver, Murray, Nadal, Borg, Federer, Donnay frames, etc...

I admire your passion for everything Borg and respect your history with the sport - watching it, playing the game and witnessing all the changes that have happened. Sorry if I have been disrespectful. The internet makes us all ass****s sometimes.

Mustard · Jan 22, 2012

monfed said:
How is Borg the GOAT when he isn't even GOAT on his favourite surface(ala clay)?

Some arguments in Borg's favour:

1. He only once played the Australian Open, yet managed to win 11 majors and play his last match at a major aged just 25.
2. He has a positive head-to-head against all his majors rivals, except 7-7 with McEnroe, who never played against Borg on clay.
3. He holds the record for the most consecutive match wins at Wimbledon with 41 in a row.
4. 3 times he won a major without dropping a set, including the most dominant major win in history at the 1978 French Open with just 32 games lost in 7 matches, with a victory over the defending champion Vilas in the final by 6-1, 6-1, 6-3.
5. 3 years in a row he won the French Open and Wimbledon in the same calendar year.

Of course, the biggest negative is Borg's failure to win the US Open, despite getting to 4 finals. He had his best chance in 1976 against Connors on clay, in my opinion, with 4 set points in the third set tiebreak while it was 1 set all, but Connors saved them all and won the match in 4 sets.

borg number one · Jan 22, 2012

^^Mustard, good rundown there. Good reasons for and against Borg. Every great player has perhaps has a few "chinks in the armor", but that's tennis for you. That '76 US Open final was a close one no doubt. Borg was still a bit "wet behind the ears" though at 20. Great win by Jimmy though, no doubt. It's interesting that Orantes and Vilas won that event in '75 and '77 respectively, and then you have the switch to hard courts for the US Open in '78 when it moved from Forest Hills to Flushing Meadows. Yet, I would also submit that the '80 US Open final was a nail biter, with Borg having a break point in the fifth set, having won sets 3 & 4. A funny moment during that match is this one. Recall that this was just a couple of months after the epic on Centre Court in 1980. I guess McEnroe and Borg have played some soccer too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK45lDHc8yw

borg number one · Jan 22, 2012

nikdom said:
I admire your passion for everything Borg and respect your history with the sport - watching it, playing the game and witnessing all the changes that have happened. Sorry if I have been disrespectful. The internet makes us all ass****s sometimes.

Thanks Nikdom, that's very nice of you, no need to apologize. I'm sure I've made some posts that were a bit rough on others too. The internet can be a strange place sometimes no doubt, lol, but all in all, I really like this site.

monfed · Jan 22, 2012

borg number one said:
Nikdom, as to Borg and Nadal, there's also indoors, Wimbledon and hard courts, plus influence on the Game in many respects. So, it's not just clay dominance. Borg and Nadal are basically both way up there in the history of clay courters, of course. In addition, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Plus, I don't find Nadal's game to be ugly either. I generally find many styles of tennis to be quite pleasing to the eye, whether it's S&V, all court, or primarily baseline play.

This is some beautiful tennis play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyuiEzBb7hk
(Borg vs. Lendl indoors in Jan. 1981 at the Masters YEC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTMx--E0OhY
(Borg vs. Connors on rubico in '79, Pepsi Grand Slam, 4 man invitational, only for players that had won a major, big money event played in FLA back then)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jGn0ZIZtaM
(Borg vs. Pecci, 1979 FO final)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ugw-pjROUQ
(Borg vs. Nastase, 1976 W final)

Thanks for the videos Borgforever and Krosero.

I admire your open-mindedness.

krosero · Jan 22, 2012

borg number one said:
Krosero, I agree that Wimbledon may have been a bit more prestigious back then than it is today, relatively speaking. I think it's still quite comfortably the "biggest tournament" of the year, though the other majors aren't too far behind perhaps. Borg equaling Perry's 3 in a row was big and then when he won four in a row, that was huge. I recall that after the epic '81 final, the commentator said something like..Bjorn Borg now has an "absolutely unique place in the history of the Game" (referring to his five titles in a row). Also, he said that he was "King of the world of tennis without a doubt..."an absolutely monumental place in the Game".

Yes that was Dan Maskell, who had been around for decades and had a keen sense of history. He knew how revered Wimbledon had always been, so for someone to post 5 titles in a row -- well, that was utterly unique in the history of the game. No one had ever won 5 in a row playing straight through, without the benefit of the Challenge Round system. Maskell was acknowledging that.

But I think it's possible that a streak of 5 in a row did not happen until the Open Era because so many of the great amateurs of the past would go into the pro game without ever getting the chance to post such a streak. Now everyone plays Wimbledon until retirement, and Sampras posted streaks of 3 and 4, and Federer tied Borg's 5.

Which is not to diminish Borg's streak. It still stands up there with the greatest records in history. But it is no longer absolutely unique as Maskell called it, since one player has tied it and another nearly tied it.

On the other hand, Borg's three channel Slams seem to be more highly regarded today than they were in his time. I mean of course everyone knew then how difficult it was to go from clay to grass, and he got kudos for it. But maybe now with the changes to Wimbledon's grass, there's more appreciation for what Borg did, annihilating baseliners on really slow clay and two weeks later beating all the serve-and-volleyers on a really fast grass.

timnz · Jan 22, 2012

Because

monfed said:
How is Borg the GOAT when he isn't even GOAT on his favourite surface(ala clay)?

Whether or not he is the GOAT he is clearly better than nadal. He achieved more majors at a younger age and also he had a far better range of surface ability. He was one of the top indoor carpet payers along with being the best clay player...whereas nadal doesnt have quite the same ability at the fast end of the spectrum.

kiki · Jan 24, 2012

borg number one said:
In 1980, Connors lost to Borg at the WCT-Maryland event 6-1,6-3 (indoors). At the 1980 Masters Cup (YEC) event, played in Jan. 1981, he lost a close three setter to Borg. So, as far as calendar year 1980, you have that 1 Connors Borg meeting, with two wins by Borg if you look at the Jan. 81 Masters event as the 1980 YEC. What a trio of great players, reminding me a bit of Djokovic, Nadal, and Federer now, of course with some differences. Connors was the oldest of the three. Here, you have Federer as the oldest of the three. Nadal represented a big challenge for Federer. For Connors, it was first Borg and then later McEnroe. Now, you have Djokovic that has reached the top ranking. Will he hang on? How long? That's sort of like what McEnroe did in 1981, when he took over #1 from Borg. Yet, look at 1981 more closely. McEnroe did win the W and US Open encounters against Borg, but Borg was no slouch that year. he took out McEnroe at the Masters event indoors on McEnroe's home turf (MSG) and of course he won FO #6, whereas McEnroe was nowhere near Borg on red clay. I remember Laver talking about how though McEnroe was a tough matchup for Borg on fast surfaces by 1981 (though their H2H stood at 7-7 on all fast surfaces), Borg still had a big advantage on clay. Then came 1982, and Connors pulled ahead of McEnroe at both W and the US Open. Currently, what will happen with Djokovic, Nadal, and Federer? Can Djokovic hold on to the top spot, and hold off the "older guard" (though Nadal only about a year older than Djokovic). Should be fascinating to watch.

Connors deefated Mc in their only 1981 calendar match (a classic 5 setter at the Wembley pool, in November).If we consider, as it should, 1982 Masters as part of 1981, then Mc darws it because of his MSG win over Connors ( who also beat Mc in another torrid 5 setter, in Chicago, prior to the MSG event).

Borg also felt to Mac at the Milan Indoors in 1981.Mac clearly dominated Borg in 1981, same way as Borg dominated Mac in 1980 ( Borg handled easily the new yorker in the 1980 Stockholm Indoors, a tournament of the same importance as the Wembley event I mentioned before).

kiki · Jan 24, 2012

Mustard said:
McEnroe was getting repeatedly battered by Lendl in 1982. It was certainly a factor in damaging his confidence.

True.Even an injuried Lendl dominated JMac in 1982 ( Mac´s only win would come at the beginning of the year, in an exhibition event held at Chicago)

kiki · Jan 24, 2012

borg number one said:
Very true. Look at 1980-1981 too. Lendl had the edge there versus him, though Connors and Borg were winning most of the time versus Lendl. In 1981, Borg prevailed almost always versus Connors, and most of the time versus Lendl, with McEnroe he was basically even H2H, but McEnroe won at W and the US Open, while Borg did take the Jan. 81 Masters and the FO.

Milan 1981: Mc Enroe takes the final beating Borg 7-6,6-4.

kiki · Jan 24, 2012

Mustard said:
Some arguments in Borg's favour:

1. He only once played the Australian Open, yet managed to win 11 majors and play his last match at a major aged just 25.
2. He has a positive head-to-head against all his majors rivals, except 7-7 with McEnroe, who never played against Borg on clay.
3. He holds the record for the most consecutive match wins at Wimbledon with 41 in a row.
4. 3 times he won a major without dropping a set, including the most dominant major win in history at the 1978 French Open with just 32 games lost in 7 matches, with a victory over the defending champion Vilas in the final by 6-1, 6-1, 6-3.
5. 3 years in a row he won the French Open and Wimbledon in the same calendar year.

Of course, the biggest negative is Borg's failure to win the US Open, despite getting to 4 finals. He had his best chance in 1976 against Connors on clay, in my opinion, with 4 set points in the third set tiebreak while it was 1 set all, but Connors saved them all and won the match in 4 sets.

In the 1980 USO F, he trailed Mac´s 2 sets advantage and got at 2 all...better option for Borg here, IMO.Mac should have been very worried, because if you have a 2 sets advantage of the ice man and you squander it ( like Kriek in the SF)...but he had a great merit in winning the fifth set, BTW.

kiki · Jan 24, 2012

borg number one said:
^^Mustard, good rundown there. Good reasons for and against Borg. Every great player has perhaps has a few "chinks in the armor", but that's tennis for you. That '76 US Open final was a close one no doubt. Borg was still a bit "wet behind the ears" though at 20. Great win by Jimmy though, no doubt. It's interesting that Orantes and Vilas won that event in '75 and '77 respectively, and then you have the switch to hard courts for the US Open in '78 when it moved from Forest Hills to Flushing Meadows. Yet, I would also submit that the '80 US Open final was a nail biter, with Borg having a break point in the fifth set, having won sets 3 & 4. A funny moment during that match is this one. Recall that this was just a couple of months after the epic on Centre Court in 1980. I guess McEnroe and Borg have played some soccer too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK45lDHc8yw

in 76 he had already won 2 FO and 1 W, beating even more seasoned guys than Jimbo in the finals...Orantes ( after trailing 2 sets), Nastase and had also ebaten Vilas, a guy of Jummy´s age at the WCT Finals that very same year.

Connors was tougher menthally than Borg, and played a far guttsier tennis there.Possibly one of his greatest wins ever ( along the 1982 Wimbledon classic with JMac and 1983 USO overcoming Lendl´s very good start).No excuses for Borg, then.

kiki · Jan 24, 2012

timnz said:
Whether or not he is the GOAT he is clearly better than nadal. He achieved more majors at a younger age and also he had a far better range of surface ability. He was one of the top indoor carpet payers along with being the best clay player...whereas nadal doesnt have quite the same ability at the fast end of the spectrum.

Agreed.Nadal´s still a bit far from Borg, but he has the guts and the talent ( and the help of a very weak era, too) to catch the swede....of course, if he does, then we will go on the era´s debate...

borg number one · Jan 24, 2012

kiki said:
in 76 he had already won 2 FO and 1 W, beating even more seasoned guys than Jimbo in the finals...Orantes ( after trailing 2 sets), Nastase and had also ebaten Vilas, a guy of Jummy´s age at the WCT Finals that very same year.

Connors was tougher menthally than Borg, and played a far guttsier tennis there.Possibly one of his greatest wins ever ( along the 1982 Wimbledon classic with JMac and 1983 USO overcoming Lendl´s very good start).No excuses for Borg, then.

Great win for Jimmy, true, but no way he pulls that off post 1979, don't see that happening on rubico. Hardcourt, yes maybe.

borg number one · Jan 24, 2012

kiki said:
Connors deefated Mc in their only 1981 calendar match (a classic 5 setter at the Wembley pool, in November).If we consider, as it should, 1982 Masters as part of 1981, then Mc darws it because of his MSG win over Connors ( who also beat Mc in another torrid 5 setter, in Chicago, prior to the MSG event).

Borg also felt to Mac at the Milan Indoors in 1981.Mac clearly dominated Borg in 1981, same way as Borg dominated Mac in 1980 ( Borg handled easily the new yorker in the 1980 Stockholm Indoors, a tournament of the same importance as the Wembley event I mentioned before).

McEnroe has the edge in 1981 no doubt Kiki, but no FO for him, and also Borg did take the Masters played in Jan. 1981. So, if we look at every surface, indoors, clay, grass, and hard court, it's a broader view. I think of it more in terms of the calendar instead of say the ranking year in that, McEnroe had won that big '80 US Open final. McEnroe got beaten pretty badly by Clerc on red clay at the FO, but man, back then there were some great clay courters, which often gets overlooked. In Borg's time, there were many grass court specialists and also clay specialists, at a time when you had more variety in court speed. Plus, even the US Open was faster than it is now, and of course, no slow hard court, like the AO now.

kiki · Jan 25, 2012

borg number one said:
McEnroe has the edge in 1981 no doubt Kiki, but no FO for him, and also Borg did take the Masters played in Jan. 1981. So, if we look at every surface, indoors, clay, grass, and hard court, it's a broader view. I think of it more in terms of the calendar instead of say the ranking year in that, McEnroe had won that big '80 US Open final. McEnroe got beaten pretty badly by Clerc on red clay at the FO, but man, back then there were some great clay courters, which often gets overlooked. In Borg's time, there were many grass court specialists and also clay specialists, at a time when you had more variety in court speed. Plus, even the US Open was faster than it is now, and of course, no slow hard court, like the AO now.

It was lendl, not Clerc, who took Mac´out of the French ( in any case, Clerc beat Connors in the other QF and would have done the same to Mac, like he often did on clay, if they had met).

In any case, 1981 was deservedly Mac´s year, altough Borg was, of course, very dangerous.Borg won the FO and the Masters ( if you consider it as a calendar year,not tennis year), but Mac took Wimbly,Flushing and WCT finals.Borg made all the major finals, except Dallas.Mac´s showing at the Masters and French was pretty poor...close, but the head to ehad clearly indicates Mac was dominating Borg ( on a fast court ).

I agree that the golden era was full of different surfaces and, most important, specialists.That is why it is such a major feat, possibly unrepeatable, Borg´s 3 channel slams, going from slow court and playing a 5 sets battle with Lendl...and, in 15 days, beating big bangers , one after the other, like Frawley,Pfister,Teacher...and beating Connors or Mac in the final.Completely astounding.

borg number one · Jan 25, 2012

Kiki, yes it was Lendl not Clerc at the 1981 FO that beat McEnroe, you're right. McEnroe lost to Lendl in the 1981 FO qf and I do think Clerc would have prevailed too. Tough customer out there. I've seen some video of that, straight sets on a wet day. McEnroe kept talking about how they shouldn't be playing. Players like Clerc and even Higueras were tough, in addition to players like Borg, Vilas, and Lendl of course at the FO during 1980-1981. Remember how tough that Argentina Davis Cup team was with Clerc and Vilas on clay? Clerc would regularly beat McEnroe on clay as well. That's just an indicator of how there were so many clay court "specialists" at that time. Then you had players like Amritraj and Teacher who could be so dangerous at the AELTC, just waiting to knock you out of the tourney. It made for fascinating variety to watch. Look at these FO draws for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_French_Open_–_Men's_Singles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_French_Open_–_Men's_Singles (1980)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_French_Open_–_Men's_Singles (1981)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkQkoUBJrA0 (1981, Lendl d. Clerc, FO SF)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtcUz7L4UrM&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=SPC0E2F6A4E6370CDE (1981, Lendl d. McEnroe, FO QF)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwFQ6S1r8l4&feature=related (1981 FO Final)

ZeroSkid · Jan 25, 2012

OFFICIAL GOAT LIST:

1) Roger Federer
2) Pete Sampras
3) Bjorn Borg
4) Rafael Nadal

Nadal will pass Bjorn Borg soon and maybe Pete Sampras too, not sure if he will surpass Federer

borg number one · Jan 25, 2012

ZeroSkid, yet Federer talked about how you can't just use major count and look at it that way, in his interview with Laver last night. He brought up how it was Laver and then Borg and so on, with past champions making today's tennis environment possible. Different eras, different priorities and circumstances. For Laver, you had the shift from amateurs to the pros, with Borg, you have the AO factor. Laver mentioned that some years they were playing all 52 weeks of the year, traveling the world with top players constantly facing each other. That's a tough grind, without big money either, playing for food and shelter and the love of tennis only. That takes incredible fortitude. If we just use strictly major count, where's Emerson and Laver on the list then? I do agree that Nadal will likely pass Borg as to major count and I also think he could catch Federer's total. I think 13+ is quite likely for Nadal, I do agree with you there. So, say a guy wins 10 FO's and 10 AO's, is he #1 on the "official" list in your opinion?

theroguedog · Jan 25, 2012

I wonder how these and other rankings posted by tennis pros and others are impacted by anything other than pure, objective playing records? From that point of view only, my money is on Jimmy Connors (certainly NOT #8).

Records held by Jimmy Connors:

Most ATP singles titles won: 109.
Most WCT singles titles won: 48.
Most singles matches won on ATP WCT Grand Prix tours: 1,242.
Most singles matches played in a career: 1,519
Most ATP singles finals in a career: 158.
Most carpet court titles in a career: 44.
Most grass court titles won in a year (1974): 4.
Most hard court titles won in a year (1973): 9 (shared with Roger Federer).
Most indoor court titles in a career: 54.
Most consecutive years with a match winning percentage over 80% (1973–84): 12.

Most career Majors match wins: 232 (shared with Roger Federer).
Most career Majors match wins on grass: 107
Most Majors semifinals: 31.
Most Majors quarterfinals: 41
Most consecutive semifinals at an individual Grand Slam tournament: 12 at US Open.

Most match wins at a single grand slam tournament US Open: 98.
Most match wins at a single grand slam tournament Wimbledon: 84.
Most career match wins overall on grass courts: 169.
Best match winning percentage at the Australian Open 91.7% (11–1).
Best Majors win–loss record in a single year (1974) 100% (20–0) (shared with Rod Laver).

Most Grand Prix championship series tiles won in a year (1976): 5 (shared with Rod Laver).

Most years finishing in the top ten: 16 (shared with Andre Agassi).
Most US Open men's singles titles: 5 (shared with Pete Sampras and Roger Federer).

Most years ended in the top 3: 12
Most consecutive years ended in the Top 3 (1973-84):12.
Most years ended in the top 5: 14
Most years ended in the top 10: 16 (shared with Andre Agassi).
Most consecutive years ended in the top 10 (1973-88):16
Most consecutive weeks ranked inside the top 10: 788.
Most consecutive years winning at least 5 tour titles per year(1972-1980): 9

Won at least one Major title on at least three different surfaces (shared with Mats Wilander, Andre Agassi, Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal). Connors is also the only man to win U.S. Open singles championships on grass, clay, and hard courts.

Completed the shortest match at any single Grand Slam tournament final US Open (1974) by defeating Ken Rosewall in only 20 games 6–1, 6–0, 6–1.

More...In 1974, Connors was by far the most dominant player. He had a 99-4 record that year and won 15 tournaments, including all the Grand Slam singles titles except the French Open. The French Open did not allow Connors to participate due to his association with World Team Tennis.
His exclusion from the French Open most likely prevented him from becoming the first male player since Rod Laver to win all four Grand Slam singles titles in a calendar year. Despite not being allowed to play in the French Open in his prime, he was still able to reach the semifinals four times in his later years.

Also, In 1975, Connors won two highly-touted "Challenge Matches", televised nationally by CBS Sports from Caesars Palace in Las Vegas. The first match, in February and billed as $100,000 ($408,065 today) winner-takes-all, was against Laver. Connors won that match, 6–4, 6–2, 3–6, 7–5. Connors won all three meetings with Rod Laver in tour events. ( I know Laver was "past his prime" so no need to tell me that). You can watch the match on YouTube.

Another slant at
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703933404576170562828252014.html

celoft · Jan 25, 2012

ZeroSkid said:
OFFICIAL GOAT LIST:

1) Roger Federer
2) Pete Sampras
3) Bjorn Borg
4) Rafael Nadal

Nadal will pass Bjorn Borg soon and maybe Pete Sampras too, not sure if he will surpass Federer

I could see him ending his career with 12 slams. More of that looks very difficult.

kiki · Jan 25, 2012

celoft said:
I could see him ending his career with 12 slams. More of that looks very difficult.

Borg also won 2 Masters and a WCT title.

OK , Nadal won more Davis Cups, but we talk about individual perfs, no? anyway, Nadal´s record is impressive...if only had he been tested in a strong field...

borg number one · Jan 25, 2012

Nadal does have an excellent Davis Cup record. As to Borg though, he had a 33 match win streak in Davis Cup. Bjorn Borg won his first DC match at age 15, when he won a 5 set match.

See this info on Sweden's DC win in 1975 and B. Borg's DC win streak.

Borg won two singles and one doubles rubber in the 1975 Davis Cup final, as Sweden beat Czechoslovakia 3–2. With these singles wins, Borg had won 19 consecutive Davis Cup singles rubbers since 1973. That was already a record at the time. However, Borg never lost another Davis Cup singles rubber, and, by the end of his career, he had stretched that winning streak to 33—a Davis Cup record that still stands.

I don't see Nadal stopping at 10 majors, just don't see it. I don't think he's declining in any way really and he'll keep picking up majors, at least here and there. Of course, Djokovic, Federer, and Murray are likely to have a lot to say about that.

kiki · Jan 25, 2012

borg number one said:
Kiki, yes it was Lendl not Clerc at the 1981 FO that beat McEnroe, you're right. McEnroe lost to Lendl in the 1981 FO qf and I do think Clerc would have prevailed too. Tough customer out there. I've seen some video of that, straight sets on a wet day. McEnroe kept talking about how they shouldn't be playing. Players like Clerc and even Higueras were tough, in addition to players like Borg, Vilas, and Lendl of course at the FO during 1980-1981. Remember how tough that Argentina Davis Cup team was with Clerc and Vilas on clay? Clerc would regularly beat McEnroe on clay as well. That's just an indicator of how there were so many clay court "specialists" at that time. Then you had players like Amritraj and Teacher who could be so dangerous at the AELTC, just waiting to knock you out of the tourney. It made for fascinating variety to watch. Look at these FO draws for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_French_Open_–_Men's_Singles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_French_Open_–_Men's_Singles (1980)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_French_Open_–_Men's_Singles (1981)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkQkoUBJrA0 (1981, Lendl d. Clerc, FO SF)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtcUz7L4UrM&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=SPC0E2F6A4E6370CDE (1981, Lendl d. McEnroe, FO QF)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwFQ6S1r8l4&feature=related (1981 FO Final)

true, Clerc ( and Higueras, but in a lesser way) was a very talentes clay courter, i sae him live a bunch of times and he always lloked like having the perfect clay court textbook strokes and a pretty good first serve, too.he almost beat Mac on Cincinnati´s fast supreme court during the 1981 DC final.

He beat all the big guys, and not just once...but he couldn´t beat Borg...do you know, PC1 if Borg ever lost to Jose Luis ? I think Borg´s last big win was at the 1983 Montecarlo Open, ousting Clerc ( by then nº 5 in the world) in the first round ( Borg lost the next day to french Leconte, a talented yet very unconsistent player)

kiki · Jan 25, 2012

theroguedog said:
I wonder how these and other rankings posted by tennis pros and others are impacted by anything other than pure, objective playing records? From that point of view only, my money is on Jimmy Connors (certainly NOT #8).

Records held by Jimmy Connors:

Most ATP singles titles won: 109.
Most WCT singles titles won: 48.
Most singles matches won on ATP WCT Grand Prix tours: 1,242.
Most singles matches played in a career: 1,519
Most ATP singles finals in a career: 158.
Most carpet court titles in a career: 44.
Most grass court titles won in a year (1974): 4.
Most hard court titles won in a year (1973): 9 (shared with Roger Federer).
Most indoor court titles in a career: 54.
Most consecutive years with a match winning percentage over 80% (1973–84): 12.

Most career Majors match wins: 232 (shared with Roger Federer).
Most career Majors match wins on grass: 107
Most Majors semifinals: 31.
Most Majors quarterfinals: 41
Most consecutive semifinals at an individual Grand Slam tournament: 12 at US Open.

Most match wins at a single grand slam tournament US Open: 98.
Most match wins at a single grand slam tournament Wimbledon: 84.
Most career match wins overall on grass courts: 169.
Best match winning percentage at the Australian Open 91.7% (11–1).
Best Majors win–loss record in a single year (1974) 100% (20–0) (shared with Rod Laver).

Most Grand Prix championship series tiles won in a year (1976): 5 (shared with Rod Laver).

Most years finishing in the top ten: 16 (shared with Andre Agassi).
Most US Open men's singles titles: 5 (shared with Pete Sampras and Roger Federer).

Most years ended in the top 3: 12
Most consecutive years ended in the Top 3 (1973-84):12.
Most years ended in the top 5: 14
Most years ended in the top 10: 16 (shared with Andre Agassi).
Most consecutive years ended in the top 10 (1973-88):16
Most consecutive weeks ranked inside the top 10: 788.
Most consecutive years winning at least 5 tour titles per year(1972-1980): 9

Won at least one Major title on at least three different surfaces (shared with Mats Wilander, Andre Agassi, Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal). Connors is also the only man to win U.S. Open singles championships on grass, clay, and hard courts.

Completed the shortest match at any single Grand Slam tournament final US Open (1974) by defeating Ken Rosewall in only 20 games 6–1, 6–0, 6–1.

More...In 1974, Connors was by far the most dominant player. He had a 99-4 record that year and won 15 tournaments, including all the Grand Slam singles titles except the French Open. The French Open did not allow Connors to participate due to his association with World Team Tennis.
His exclusion from the French Open most likely prevented him from becoming the first male player since Rod Laver to win all four Grand Slam singles titles in a calendar year. Despite not being allowed to play in the French Open in his prime, he was still able to reach the semifinals four times in his later years.

Also, In 1975, Connors won two highly-touted "Challenge Matches", televised nationally by CBS Sports from Caesars Palace in Las Vegas. The first match, in February and billed as $100,000 ($408,065 today) winner-takes-all, was against Laver. Connors won that match, 6–4, 6–2, 3–6, 7–5. Connors won all three meetings with Rod Laver in tour events. ( I know Laver was "past his prime" so no need to tell me that). You can watch the match on YouTube.

Another slant at
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703933404576170562828252014.html

Good memorial of the Connors career.Most important of all, even more than all those bunch of titles and weeks at the top, was the character, joy and colour he brought to the game.we´ll never forget Jimbo.

borg number one · Jan 25, 2012

kiki said:
true, Clerc ( and Higueras, but in a lesser way) was a very talentes clay courter, i sae him live a bunch of times and he always lloked like having the perfect clay court textbook strokes and a pretty good first serve, too.he almost beat Mac on Cincinnati´s fast supreme court during the 1981 DC final.

He beat all the big guys, and not just once...but he couldn´t beat Borg...do you know, PC1 if Borg ever lost to Jose Luis ? I think Borg´s last big win was at the 1983 Montecarlo Open, ousting Clerc ( by then nº 5 in the world) in the first round ( Borg lost the next day to french Leconte, a talented yet very unconsistent player)

Here's an article on the '83 match in Monte Carlo Kiki. Yes, Borg beat Clerc in that first round there that year, as he prepared for retirement. He said he was a bit surprised that he played well, given his prep. I'll check on his record versus Clerc specifically. He lost to Leconte 7-6 in the third in the next round.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...6IqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=z1gEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3167,7369461

As far as official matches, from 79-83, Borg was 4-0 vs. Clerc, winning 3 times on clay and once on indoor carpet.

kiki · Jan 25, 2012

I wonder if Borg played kevin Curren , this should have made a very interesting match up, sin´t it?

borg number one · Jan 25, 2012

kiki said:
I wonder if Borg played kevin Curren , this should have made a very interesting match up, sin´t it?

Yes Kiki that would have been, but Curren left college (UT-Austin) after Borg retired. No official matches between them that I see. Curren was a big server for sure, but he could go pretty hot and cold. He was a dangerous player especially at Wimbledon, where he got a win over Connors in 1983. Connors was 31 by then, yet he had won W in 1982. I think he would have been dangerous at W especially for Borg, sort of like Amritraj or Amaya, but yes, it would been a great contrast in playing styles. Curren and Denton were fantastic in doubles. Remember Denton? Heavy hitter!

kiki · Jan 26, 2012

borg number one said:
Yes Kiki that would have been, but Curren left college (UT-Austin) after Borg retired. No official matches between them that I see. Curren was a big server for sure, but he could go pretty hot and cold. He was a dangerous player especially at Wimbledon, where he got a win over Connors in 1983. Connors was by 31 by then, yet he had won W in 1982. I think he would have been dangerous at W especially for Borg, sort of like Amritraj or Amaya, but yes, it would been a great contrast in playing styles. Curren and Denton were fantastic in doubles. Remember Denton? Heavy hitter!

Curren was coached by Warren Jacques, same coach of Denton, both from Texas.They teamed up to make a terrific doubles partnerships, possibly the hardest ever serving duo.

But Kevin was born in 58, and by 1980 he was player regularly the tour as a pro, that is why I wondered if he had played Borg, in 1980 or 1981, long before the swede retired.

kiki · Jan 26, 2012

kiki said:
Curren was coached by Warren Jacques, same coach of Denton, both from Texas.They teamed up to make a terrific doubles partnerships, possibly the hardest ever serving duo.

But Kevin was born in 58, and by 1980 he was player regularly the tour as a pro, that is why I wondered if he had played Borg, in 1980 or 1981, long before the swede retired.

With Curren and Denton you always feared somebody got hurt.I remember Denton serving in a doubles match, and the returner got his wrist injuried and racket felt down as he tried to return that serve...and, in another match, I think during the 82 USO ( which they won), Curren´s serve hit the back of Denton ( who was at the net ) and Steve felt down with a lot of pain and needed first help to continue...

Yes, big big artillery

borg number one · Jan 26, 2012

Good posts Kiki. You are right on the money, plus, that is true about Curren. He had been playing pro matches for a while, even though he went to UT. An interesting stat is that though Curren lost that 1985 Wimbledon final to Boris Becker, I believe that he is the last player to reach a final at a major playing with a wood frame (Wilson Pro Staff).

mattennis · Jan 26, 2012

Yes, he reached (and lost to Wilander, in a great four-setter match) the Australian Open'84 Final playing with wood.

It was the last time a player playing with a wooden racquet got to a GS Final.

If you watch that final you will realize how much better Wilander returned and hit passing-shots than Curren (even though Curren's serve was huge and was a very good net player).

The bigger graphite racquets aided the return and passing-shots tremendously.

Curren had problems to win almost all of his service games (almost all went to deuce).

Curren was playing great that tournament, having defeated Lendl in the R16.

It was a great and important match (that I have watched more than once) because there you can see very well how graphite bigger racquets changed the game completely.

Curren was not used to those consistently good returns and passing-shots off of his great serves (something that was almost imposible playing with small wooden racquets, except for Borg).

And it was the last time we could hear the amazing and lovely "sound" of a tight strung wooden racquet hitting a tennis ball. Brings back so many beautiful memories.... (when tennis was more an art than an endurace top-spin competition).

In Wimbledon'85 Curren destroyed everyone in front of him (but Becker in the Final), including McEnroe in the QF by the score 6-2 6-2 6-4 and Connors in the SF by the score 6-2 6-2 6-1 with his powerful graphite Kneissl White Star Pro Masters.

Mustard · Jan 26, 2012

borg number one said:
Good posts Kiki. You are right on the money, plus, that is true about Curren. He had been playing pro matches for a while, even though he went to UT. An interesting stat is that though Curren lost that 1985 Wimbledon final to Boris Becker, I believe that he is the last player to reach a final at a major playing with a wood frame (Wilson Pro Staff).

Miloslav Mecir at the 1986 US Open was the last major finalist who used a wooden racquet.

mattennis · Jan 26, 2012

Mustard said:
Miloslav Mecir at the 1986 US Open was the last major finalist who used a wooden racquet.

Ups, I did not know that Mecir was using wood that late.

Thanks for correcting me.

mattennis · Jan 26, 2012

But I guess it was not a standard size ( 66 s.i. ) wooden racquet, right? I remember more of a mid sized racquet, though I did not know it was 100% wood.

jackson vile · Jan 26, 2012

mattennis said:
But I guess it was not a standard size ( 66 s.i. ) wooden racquet, right? I remember more of a mid sized racquet, though I did not know it was 100% wood.

Were they 70-75sqin?

Warmaster · Jan 26, 2012

Mustard said:
Miloslav Mecir at the 1986 US Open was the last major finalist who used a wooden racquet.

Wow, that late? Around what year did most guys make the switch?

Mustard · Jan 26, 2012

Warmaster said:
Wow, that late? Around what year did most guys make the switch?

I think 1982-1983 was the period where most players got rid of wood.

mattennis · Jan 26, 2012

Warmaster said:
Wow, that late? Around what year did most guys make the switch?

In 1983 the majority of players changed to graphite. Lendl was one of the first in 1980. During this time some players also used graphite reinforced wooden mid-sized racquets.

Curren racquet in the Australian Open'84 Final was 100% wood and 66 s.i.

I think Mecir racquet in US OPEN'86 Final wasn't 66 s.i. (but possibly it was 100% wood).

jukka1970 · Jan 26, 2012

forehand_dude said:
Did you know that Borg won 11 majors even though he retired at age 26 and only played the AO once? If he had played until age 30 and played all the AO's, he easily would have won 16 majors, and probably 20.

I think we've all gotten caught up in the excitement of watching Federer at his peak, but there is a strong case for Sampras and Nadal being his equal, and Borg being better.

well Sampras never won the French, so sorry but he should have never been considered. It's the same problem I have with Borg, and it was Borg's choice to retire, and sorry but there's no way to prove how many he would have won. If we start going into what could have happened, one can make the case that Federer would have had 5 French Opens, without Nadal.

As for Nadal, he does have some good records, but Federer has more impressive ones, and Nadal is still 6 slams behind, plus the majority come from the French. The straight semi and straight final appearances that Fed has are going to be tough to beat.

borg number one · Jan 27, 2012

Good info on Curren and Mecir. Even if you look at what Borg achieved by age 25, his record is incredible. 11 majors by then, and he only played the AO once. So, we don't even have to consider what he would have done from say 1982 onwards. Even with total titles, you have 60+ official titles only, along with a large number of unofficial tourneys played. Back then, players like Borg and Connors were traveling around the globe, spreading the popularity of tennis worldwide. Now, although those tournaments are not considered "official", they had a significant impact on tennis. In addition, many of those matches very quite competitive. If you look at all tournaments he played, there are hundreds of additional matches played and titles as well (in addition to his 63 official titles). Plus, Borg had very impressive surface versatility if you dig deeper into his record. As to Federer, I agree that he may have more FO titles without Nadal there, but then perhaps not. I mean, look at Borg then, he was facing off against two great fast court players, namely McEnroe and Connors, and that was at a time when the US Open hard courts were faster than they are now and Wimbledon grass was faster than it is now. Even then, he won Wimbledon five times in a row and reached the final in 1981. He has a 41 match record win streak at W. Plus, he reached 3 finals at the US Open on those hard courts, while playing a total of 4 hard court majors (1978-1981). He never had the opportunity to play on the slower hard courts that are around these days. Then, look at his very impressive indoor records, with about 23 indoor titles and some big YEC wins (like in Jan. 80 & 81) when he was beating Lendl, Connors, and McEnroe. So, even by 25, his record and impact on the Game overall were amazing.

kiki · Jan 27, 2012

Many people today can´t really value the great indoor tennis of the 1970´s and 1980´s, with Masters and WCT being real major stops on the tour.

Borg did have a pretty good record, with 4 Masters finals ( 2 wins and 2 loses) and 4 WCT Dallas finals ( 1 win and 3 defeats).

Indoor tennis was mainly played on fast supreme court, producing some of the best and most dinamic tennis I remember of.

borg number one · Jan 28, 2012

Looking at how Borg did indoors versus his rivals, he stacks up very well. During Borg's career, he had 9 meetings versus McEnroe indoors and he went he 5-4 (1978-1981). Borg had 2 Masters Cup wins over McEnroe, while McEnroe has a WCT Final win over Borg. Borg had 9 meetings indoors versus Connors (1973-1981). He went 5-4 indoors versus Jimbo. Borg had 2 meetings versus Lendl indoors at the 1980 Basel tourney and in the Masters Cup final played in Jan. 1981. They went 1-1, with Borg winning the Masters Cup final in straight sets while Lendl won a five setter at the 1980 Basel final. So, during his career, Borg was as good or better head to head as McEnroe, Connors, and Lendl.

Atherton2003 · Jan 28, 2012

I don't believe Borg ever won the US Open. Additionally, Borg retired at 26 years old - too early to call him the "greatest". He certainly is up there with Rafa as the greatest on clay courts - but I'd say the greatest is one of the players who won all 4 grand slams.

borg number one · Jan 28, 2012

As to the winning all four majors, Borg played the AO once, as it wasn't even a top ten tourney back then. He did not win the US Open. For those that think that someone has to win all four majors to be considered potentially the greatest ever, they have to agree that Federer would/should not be considered the greatest ever without his '09 FO title, to be consistent. The AO was a very different tournament from the 1970's until the 1980's, not considered a big tournament at all, not played by Borg, Connors, or McEnroe. Meanwhile, Sampras has no FO and was never a threat at the FO. Borg was playing three majors a year and played his last major at age 26, winning his sixth FO in 1981. Despite playing three majors a year regularly, he won at least 1 major a year for 8 straight years. During his time, the US Open was on faster hard courts and Wimbledon was played on faster grass courts. There was no hard court major played on slow hard courts, which would have been conducive to his style of play. Meanwhile, the Tour had more indoor tourneys back then, and Borg had a very impressive indoor record. From 1973-1981 was as good as any player indoors. His competition was very stout as well. For example, you had 4 Hall of Fame players at the top, in Borg, McEnroe, Connors, and Lendl, with others like Vilas and Gerulaitis in the top 10 as well.

Mustard · Jan 28, 2012

Borg actually played his last major when he was 25.

Atherton2003 · Jan 28, 2012

Very good post - and I think Fed only won the FO cause he didn't have to face Nadal. Fed is great - but he has one glitch in his resume - he was never able to figure out his chief rival - Nadal.

BeHappy · Jan 28, 2012

Mustard said:
Miloslav Mecir at the 1986 US Open was the last major finalist who used a wooden racquet.

You just correct people about trivial things all the time.

borg number one · Jan 28, 2012

Absolutely, a typo Mustard, 25 not 26. Borg played no majors in 1982, when he turned 26. He turned 25 in June 1981.

big ted · Jan 28, 2012

mattennis said:
In 1983 the majority of players changed to graphite. Lendl was one of the first in 1980. During this time some players also used graphite reinforced wooden mid-sized racquets.

Curren racquet in the Australian Open'84 Final was 100% wood and 66 s.i.

I think Mecir racquet in US OPEN'86 Final wasn't 66 s.i. (but possibly it was 100% wood).

thats right mecirs racquet was a midsize wood that may or may have not been reinforced with graphite/fiberglass. but borgs standard size racquet (among other pros) used frames that were reinforced with those materials as well if im not mistaken..

Bjorn Borg is the GOAT

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