Jeff Salzenstein Total Tennis
- Thread starter Federerkblade
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Jeff Salzenstein
New User
1BH Rocks, Great video of Fed doing what I teach in this one hand backhand video
PhrygianDominant
Hall of Fame
Hi Jeff,
I have a question regarding serve stance. When comparing the platform, pinpoint, and transition stances, with the back foot crossing the front and not, has anyone researched specifically how the contact point changes and the pros and cons? I have a theory, that the transition and pinpoint stances are more popular with shorter players and women because it allows you to make contact with the ball farther into the court, thus mitigating the height disadvantage, at the cost of upper body rotation. Your thoughts?
I have a question regarding serve stance. When comparing the platform, pinpoint, and transition stances, with the back foot crossing the front and not, has anyone researched specifically how the contact point changes and the pros and cons? I have a theory, that the transition and pinpoint stances are more popular with shorter players and women because it allows you to make contact with the ball farther into the court, thus mitigating the height disadvantage, at the cost of upper body rotation. Your thoughts?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
1HBH Rocks
Semi-Pro
That's a nice rhetorical device, although it's unfortunately a logical fallacy we call "false analogy." A coach can interact, unlike a video; all you need is to hear the teacher explains his position... in a video, it has to be integrated or contained elsewhere in some other video; for a coach, a simple question can hint you about his competence. If he cannot explain what he's doing and why, you know that he didn't design the lessons he teaches and that he doesn't understand them either; he's just like a little kid, replicating mechanically what he's been told to do. You don't want a teacher who doesn't understand the principles which underlines his lessons, regardless of who it is or of how much he charges.
1HBH Rocks
Semi-Pro
I was wondering how this footwork pattern worked with a two handed backhand... and, if so, do you have any player in mind who would be performing it currently on the tour?
Cheetah
Hall of Fame
lol. no actually that's not what a false analogy is. nice try though.
You've already stated your opinion numerous times that you don't like jeff's video instruction. we got it. move along.
Fay
Professional
I'm 5'2" and female and coming from figure skating I like the Pete Sampras stance and the Roger Federer racquet drop. Mix and Match !
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Jeff, Great new instruction on making your serve a weapon. and learning the kick serve.
Question i had was kick serve seem to be much easier to hit in the ad court than on Deuce court. Is there a way to make the kick serve easier on deuce court ?
http://jeffsalzensteintennis.com/TSS/dirty-diaper/
You are the best.
Question i had was kick serve seem to be much easier to hit in the ad court than on Deuce court. Is there a way to make the kick serve easier on deuce court ?
http://jeffsalzensteintennis.com/TSS/dirty-diaper/
You are the best.
Jeff Salzenstein
New User
Hi Nostradamus, Thank you for the kind words and thanks for sharing my free serve video link on how to hit a topspin/kick serve. It is certainly easier to hit kick to the ad court if you are a righty. If you are really committed to hitting a kick in the deuce court, you will have to toss the ball even more tot he left and get even more turned. I am not sure it is worth it as hitting a nasty slice not that side can be more effective.
the cat petter
New User
What's the point of getting the serve and FH course if you have a t3 inner circle membership?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm not jeff, but I recall him using royal blue Wilson FPKs in college?
Does the inner circle membership include the serve package?
T3 does not have all FH solution information. Perhaps only 5%. So I would assume the same for the Serve course.
-SF
Thanks for the info.
Has anyone actually tried the Serve course and found it truly helpful, like increasing the speed by 20 mph or getting the kick serve to kick much higher, etc?
the cat petter
New User
But Jeff said the t3 inner circle is the one stop shop. http://www.jeffsalzensteintennis.com/tennis-courses/
CCH4TENNIS
New User
Wow, Jeff is even endorsed by Oscar Wegner
http://www.oscarwegner.com/dev/forum/
http://www.oscarwegner.com/dev/forum/
Take the discrepancy up with Jeff.
martini1
Hall of Fame
I have watched some of his free stuff on youtube. They are quite good most of the time. But I am afraid I am not willing to pay a lot for videos lessons where I get zero feedback and zero work out. There is a reason why on court lessons are worth a lot more than lesson on video.
Fay
Professional
Speaking as someone who has purchased all three, the T-3 gives access to a lot of stuff.
the FH solution and Serve course are more detailed specific to those movements.
I have only played tennis for five years, but I can tell you as a former figure skating coach:
1.) You can take Jeff's stuff and download it to your HD on your computer. then tape yourself and compare. I have been doing this over a year with my serve and have made significant improvement in my serve. I have some issue to correct yet, but this info have been very helpful.
2.) How many people have you actually met in person on a lesson that can teach a serve. I have traveled to 3 different states over the 5 years and taken a lot of serve lessons. a *few* of them have been worthwhile ... exactly 3 coaches at most out of many who have contributed helpful info, and they only had *pieces* that were helpful. Jeff goes through all of the serve.
3.) I have gotten a lot of good information from Oscar Wegner as well. Especially under the duress of a rated match where I am out-classed and flooded: "find the ball (position yourself and watch the ball closely) "feel the ball" (try to actually feel the ball on the strings) and finish (one of the most important parts of the strokes). I got that from Oscar early and have used it ever since. So if he is endorsing Jeff, that is awesome news.
4.) I am very visual and using video analysis works MUCH BETTER for me than listening to someone trying to tell me how to hit a complicated motion like a serve. The best in person serve lessons I am currently getting is where I stand behind the person, he serves 3, and then I serve 3. He was amazed at how quickly my serve speed came up.
In figure skating many decades ago all of the best skaters in the world trained in just a few locations, they all were on the ice at the same time, and watched everyone else. The imagery went automatically from the eye to the muscles. Why we do better after watching days of grand slam tennis on TV. You can't help but get better watching the best!
So that is my case for visual training with videos. I can spend hours on my computer watching, then tape myself, which will get me much more ready in a week, than an in person lesson or two. I'm not saying that I won't travel to take an in person lesson with Jeff, as I would love to.
How many people do you know who have been in the top 100 of men pros who offer to take videos of themselves and give them out for almost free. Cost is minimal. Oscar was a very talented player as well. Health Waters is only the third person I know of with high ranking credentials besides the two previously mentioned who give away so much great information for pennies!
From my experience, it is a great deal to get a lot of tips that other coaches don't even know about, let alone teach. And, I personally like the idea of small clips so that I can work on just portions of stuff. I used to take a long list of stuff to the court to practice and it would take me 2.5 hours to get through my list of drills .... Jeff's site has a lot to offer and if you subscribed for just one year and did everything on the site, how could you not improve? Heath Waters has a great site as well. But there are very few out there who really know what they are talking about over the entire scheme of tennis, not just a stroke or two.
P.S. Jeff, Oscar and Heath are *all* on the same page as watching the best and imitate what they do. I can't tell you the number of coaches I have had tell me "you are too old to play like a pro" "you can't play like a pro so don't try to" blah blah blah. Figure skating is a lot more dangerous than tennis, so anyone with a brain would watch those who did well, and kept their eyes off of those who did not just out of self preservation! I brought that same philosophy with me to tennis.
FYB blows. IMO. It's like buying a McDonalds. Looks good in the pictures, seems as if its going to be tasty, but there's no real meat to it, and you start feeling hungry after about half an hour.
Salzenstein's stuff - which is VASTLY more technique focused and based on him developing his game (and also that of students) at all levels including pro level - is lightyears ahead. Salzenstein and Yandell are the only people on the internet worth paying attention to IMO.
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
I prefer being compared to Burger King. Whopper > Big Mac.
maggmaster
Hall of Fame
Will in this you are wrong, can't stand that fake flame grilled taste. I have found many of your videos to be quite helpful though.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Thanks Torres!
It's great to have a young well educated guy like Jeff come into the business especially with his playing background. I've known him for probably 15 years and he's always been a major student of the game. We looked at a lot of pro video together and I filmed him many times including tour matches. This isn't just a business for him. He's got a real passion for learning and helping other players.
Suresh,
Ok I'll fall for it, what? Higher pink slime content?
It's great to have a young well educated guy like Jeff come into the business especially with his playing background. I've known him for probably 15 years and he's always been a major student of the game. We looked at a lot of pro video together and I filmed him many times including tour matches. This isn't just a business for him. He's got a real passion for learning and helping other players.
Suresh,
Ok I'll fall for it, what? Higher pink slime content?
Onion rings
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Thanks! But BK is like the RF of burgers :>
you should move near places that can make a real burger.. that was an insult to RF's quality.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
You have been to Cali. I know you went In N Out, and I meant that in a rated G sense of course.
Nothing beats that magical place.
FYB is more like Macdonalds IMO. I just don't see anything I haven't heard before and I have to admit that I'm just not a fan of the 'hard sell' marketing - it just hurts your credibility as a serious tennis coach IMO. I mean, what relevance does it have that you supposedly spent $50k (or whatever the figure was) on US open video license fees? I spent $50k on a 5 pairs of tennis socks. Does it mean my socks are good quality or does it mean I've overpaid? Is my tennis really going to go up a few levels as a result of my high priced socks? And what have ninjas got to do with tennis? Hats to you for your marketing skills because FYB caters for a certain market (though how much of that is down to '1st mover' advantage' is difficult to say). It's just not for me.
Salzenstein just concentrates more on coaching and technique development that has more real world application. It's more what I consider to be serious coaching but with some innovation thrown in. His serve is course is excellent. I like him and the fact that he's straight up. I like the fact that he's grafted and that he worked hard to improve himself as a tennis player, that he was always keen to learn, develop and push himself to the next level. He puts himself out there and believes in what he's doing. His back story is fascinating. I'd definitely give him a LeBron, "Earned Not Given" T-Shirt.
Yandell just lets the content of his site speak for itself. Good stuff on there.
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wihamilton
Hall of Fame
My favorite burgers are actually from Five Guys and Shake Shack. But I do like a Whopper once or twice a year. McDonald's chicken nuggets, fries, and milkshakes are great too.
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Good timing on this post. I just finished writing an article for the PTR (Professional Tennis Registry) on how more coaches can take their knowledge and expertise online.
One of the objections I hear from coaches is that the online space is too crowded already. What's the point when there's already Will, Jeff, John, etc.?
But the reality is that each coach teaches in a way that resonates with certain people. Some people are going to "get" that coach's explanation more than mine, Jeff's, or John's. So that coach will build an audience.
And I think your post demonstrates that point.
I'd think there would be too many weird problems to solve which really can't be solved. rec players already run around like headless chicken looking for good info but most of the time they don't know what to look at. that's why it's so hard to escape from that level.
I think their objections are valid. Different online coaches will cater for different parts of the market and different playing levels, but the space IS crowded and it takes an awful lot of work, an awful lot of time, and an awful lot of money to establish an online presence.
FYB had a huge advantage in being first to market and basically dominating the lower level / beginner / weekend warrior type space. The money you charge for some of your courses is ridiculous IMO but clearly there are people who will pay that. They seem to have more money than sense because I don't think much of your content. DNO for example, you can get from a YouTube video or figure out naturally from playing - and lets be realistic here - there is no substitute for court time no matter how 'shiney' the product looks. But really nobody is going to compete with FYB for that part of the market. A new entrant to the market simply cannot compete unless they offer something different or already have an existing online space, so its all very well for you to say 'get online' when FYB already has a 1st mover advantage in the lower level / beginner / weekend warrior type space.
Salzenstein offers something different, really for people who (in my view anyway) are bit a more serious about developing or have the potential to develop (though I'm happy for Salzenstein to correct me on that if I'm wrong). Yandell something different again. But nobody is going to pay for Salzenstein + Yandell + Wegner + FYB + whatever else is out there + physical coaching etc.
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wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Takes a lot of expertise. Obviously, if you don't have it then it will take time to develop. But it's cheap to do. We started on a shoe-string budget and now high-quality cameras are incredibly cheap. Starting a website is free.
DNO and our other concepts resonate with a particular segment of the market. Those are the folks that buy our stuff. Don't fall into the trap of thinking because there's free information out there that people won't or shouldn't pay for coaching. People pay for results. Sure, some or maybe all of the information a paid course is derived from might be free, but it's the packaging, the sequencing, the way it's explained that gets someone a particular result. That's what people are paying for. Very important distinction.
I know an avid surfer who owns like 10 - 15 surf boards. Funny thing is, at any given time he can only use one. But because he loves surfing he keeps buying boards.
Kind of like hardcore tennis players. They are constantly buying new rackets, shoes, and other gear. Constantly taking lessons. And what I've found is that many of our most loyal customers also buy from other online coaches. So the anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Suresh,
Good point about the onion rings. They are tasty and take the edge off the pink slime...
Good point about the onion rings. They are tasty and take the edge off the pink slime...
ProPlayer
Rookie
At 4.5 and above Online videos are only going to be limited help. When a coach can't sit there and watch you... and its hard to stay at levels above 4.5 with out constant practice. Most people arent doing what they think they are doing. And if there's no one there to tell you that, its counter productive.
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
I recommend everyone watch this 60 Minutes interview:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7401696n
It's about Khan Academy and "flipping the classroom," a concept I think applies to learning tennis now and certainly into the future. And I think it clarifies the proper relationship between online and offline lessons.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7401696n
It's about Khan Academy and "flipping the classroom," a concept I think applies to learning tennis now and certainly into the future. And I think it clarifies the proper relationship between online and offline lessons.
Starting a website isn't free and hosting a website with all the data traffic that that consumes through multiple HD video streams/downloads isn't free either. Expertise comes from time and experience. FYB seems to have been around since the dawn of time, and I'm sure that you've made alot mistakes along the way and changed things year on year to figure out what works and doesn't work. FYB also had '1st mover' advantage. The stuff you produce now is very different to what produced when you first started.
The beginner segment. They don't know any better. DNO can be explained in 5 minutes, and in any event, its something a developing player would learn naturally as their game progresses. It's not something that needs several 1hr+ HD videos to explain.
But you're right - some people like that sort of thing. They seem to think that the longer the video the more or better content they're getting, which isn't necessarily the case.
People will pay for stuff if they think it can get them results. And there's not a insignificant proportion of people who (mistakenly) think that by watching an hour long HD video, their game will suddenly go up 2 levels. I don't doubt that you are very successful with your sales towards a certain segment of the market. But there's no substitute for time on a tennis court. Salzenstein is much more realistic in my view and focuses more on the player's individual development, their progressions, and the work that they would have to put in.
I am so glad that you've said that because it confirms my view of FYB. One of the critcisms of FYB, rightly or wrongly, is that its simply repackaged material. I still don't know what ninjas have to do with tennis. In my view alot of the stuff is unnecessarily strung out. I for one - and I know many others who would be of a similar mindset - would not wish to listen to you talk for an hour with a chalkboard behind you about something that's very simple eg. DNO with you talking formulas etc. It's a very basic concept. But like you say, some people go in for that sort of stuff. I'm just not one of them.
Depends on what you mean by 'hardcore tennis player'. I don't know any higher level tennis player for example that buys a new racquet every few months. But you are right - there is a certain crowd who will buy a new racquet every few weeks, new bag, new Federer shirt, bandana, etc
I bought the Salzenstein serve course because I was intrigued by his background, his back story, the work which he had done on his own serve, the level of tennis which he played, liked his approach to coaching, his innovation (as opposed to repeating cliches), his focus on real world application, and wanted to see what he offered in terms of technique development. Nothing shiney in the packaging, no marketing at the expense substance, but once you starting digging into the content and peeling away the layers, you see that alot of thought has gone into what he's produced, that he has excellent eye for technique issues and detail.
I've subscribed in the past to the Yandell site as well. Some good articles and videos on there (apart from the video from a certain member on these forums).
There's nothing else that I've seen online that I would pay money for. It certainly wouldn't be any of the FYB courses. I just don't see anything on there that would be useful to me, and as you've confirmed in responses, your focus seems to be on packaging and presentation. I do like the visual quality of the videos you produce though. Seems to be a good resolution and the slow motion videos have a good FPS rate.
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Avles
Hall of Fame
FYB isn't really my cup of tea either (my attention span is too short) but that doesn't mean it's a bad site by any means. If the information is solid and the explanations/demonstrations are clear, motivated players will be able to learn from it. It's a matter of preference more than anything I think.
Of course most online instruction is geared towards us low/intermediate level players. We're the biggest market, and we have the most to gain from seeing someone explain and demonstrate how to play. It's the same thing with books--the vast majority of tennis books that I've run across seem intended for lower-level players.
I think it's wrong to say that the only good instruction on the web comes Salzenstein and Yandell. Just off the top of my head there's Tae Byon, Heath Waters, Mauro and Kyril at the Tennis Vault, Cristophe Delavaut-- and there seem to be some great videos at tennisresources.com as well. I'm sure I'm missing some.
Of course most online instruction is geared towards us low/intermediate level players. We're the biggest market, and we have the most to gain from seeing someone explain and demonstrate how to play. It's the same thing with books--the vast majority of tennis books that I've run across seem intended for lower-level players.
I think it's wrong to say that the only good instruction on the web comes Salzenstein and Yandell. Just off the top of my head there's Tae Byon, Heath Waters, Mauro and Kyril at the Tennis Vault, Cristophe Delavaut-- and there seem to be some great videos at tennisresources.com as well. I'm sure I'm missing some.
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v-verb
Hall of Fame
Will check it out.
I've been watching some of your free vids and so far I think they are quite good! I'll try a few things I picked up tonight and report back - thanks!
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
You've taken what I said out of context. Everything we do is focused on getting results for our students. How things are explained, both orally and visually, is incredibly important toward achieving that goal. So to say that we're just focused on "packaging and presentation" misses the reason we place such a heavy emphasis on it.
You asked early why I spent $35,000 licensing match footage. I did that because I believed showing the pros playing points and breaking them down on my tablet was an excellent way to demonstrate how to construct points so that people "got it." That's packaging and presentation. Interestingly, that was probably the #1 request we got from our audience: "show the pros doing the strategy stuff you talk about on the dry-erase board."
(Bought that dry-erase board a few years back because I was trying to figure out how best to explain strategies & tactics. Where to hit the ball. So it's a constant evolution.)
the cat petter
New User
This is going quite off topic now...
It's called defamation. Not just one video either. Anyone arguing with this guy: he's been banned before for the crazy things he says. It's only a matter of time before he's banned again.
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JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Suresh,
Well I know for a fact that Djokovic has used Tennisplayer because he and Todd Martin used it to try to undo the havoc on his serve 2-3 years ago.
I know about several other top coaches that have: Brad Gilbert, Craig Kardon, Pat Etcheberry, Myles MacLagan, and Carlos Rodriquez. Those guys have all coached Slam winners. USTA coaches like Jay Berger and Mike Sell who have worked with top recent Americans. Pat Mac loves the site. (His verb not mine.)
And to relate slightly to this thread, Salzy and I used it extensively when he was working with me on his serve and backhand. Ditto Paul Goldstein on his serve.
We don't publicize the names but we have deals with multiple international coaching federations, including countries with players at the very top of tennis--can't track those players or coaches but the access logs are heavy.
Well I know for a fact that Djokovic has used Tennisplayer because he and Todd Martin used it to try to undo the havoc on his serve 2-3 years ago.
I know about several other top coaches that have: Brad Gilbert, Craig Kardon, Pat Etcheberry, Myles MacLagan, and Carlos Rodriquez. Those guys have all coached Slam winners. USTA coaches like Jay Berger and Mike Sell who have worked with top recent Americans. Pat Mac loves the site. (His verb not mine.)
And to relate slightly to this thread, Salzy and I used it extensively when he was working with me on his serve and backhand. Ditto Paul Goldstein on his serve.
We don't publicize the names but we have deals with multiple international coaching federations, including countries with players at the very top of tennis--can't track those players or coaches but the access logs are heavy.
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