Whatever Happened To Common Courtesy?

Cindysphinx said:

Yes, people can have all sorts of reasons for not going. That NTRPolice equates a student who doesn't want to miss classes with a guy who is becoming a father shows where he is in life's trajectory of experience and maturity.

.

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This....
It is obvious ntrppopo is very serious about his tennis. As well being a basically beginner player he is all about strokes and wins and being the best at tennis.
All of us here are passionate about this sport. But there is a point of insanity that ntrppopo has passed. Stating nationals is the same as having a child to someone. Maybe to a lunatic.
Possibly ntrppopo has no real responsibilities at this moment so he has no real idea of what it means to be responsible for a family. A job. A career. To make money. To support the family.
Tennis is a stress relief for most adult players. It is not the end goal. And if your life's ambition is to play 3.0 nationals and some person because of family responsibilities could not do it and your still bitter? I say get a life.
If anyone gave me grief about a similar situation I would tell them to get a real life and stop playing with monopoly money.

NTRPolice said:

The dates for and location are set in stone way ahead of time, before the league regular season even starts. The day of nationals is available at least 6 months before it takes place. You may have not noticed it, but that information is there.

I know you're trying to make me look small by saying im equating a student going to class to New Dad having a baby. You have just not considered the views of the people whom these circumstances belong to. That shows tremendous lack of wisdom from someone as old as you are. You claim how easy it is to "just go" or to "find more players", and again I tell you that its just not that easy.

A college student who is away for school who is working to support themselves cannot simply attend nationals because their school is just as big of a deal to them at that point in their life similar to a person who is married with a career who is having a baby.

When you make little comments like that it shows a tremendous lack of wisdom.

To some people, going to school is the most important thing in their life at that time. Some people, "rec tennis" is all they have. Some people just cant afford to drop $100's of dollars to go on a whim, or take extended periods of leave early in their careers.

You obviously make your teams without intending to go to playoffs because you dont even know how much in advance that information is available. From your last post, it just sounds like "if you go, you go. if you dont go, you dont go."

Not everyone is that casual about their tennis. Some people plan much more in advance. Some people expect those plans to be carried through if they are confirmed.

You still keep avoiding the fact that New Dad committed to going but couldnt realistically honor the "casual commitment" at the expense of others. Then, he waits till the last possible min. to say anything, by which time no realistic solution is possible.

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Just stop..... you sound more insane the more you type.

arche3 said:

This....
It is obvious ntrppopo is very serious about his tennis. As well being a basically beginner player he is all about strokes and wins and being the best at tennis.
All of us here are passionate about this sport. But there is a point of insanity that ntrppopo has passed. Stating nationals is the same as having a child to someone. Maybe to a lunatic.
Possibly ntrppopo has no real responsibilities at this moment so he has no real idea of what it means to be responsible for a family. A job. A career. To make money. To support the family.
Tennis is a stress relief for most adult players. It is not the end goal. And if your life's ambition is to play 3.0 nationals and some person because of family responsibilities could not do it and your still bitter? I say get a life.
If anyone gave me grief about a similar situation I would tell them to get a real life and stop playing with monopoly money.

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You have no idea, do you?

A lot of the people here think that im somehow bitter over this. I'm not. This didnt affect me in any way. I dont care about 3.0 nationals, in fact, I declined to go this year because I simply did not want to play 3.0 adult anymore. I "de-earned" a spot on the team, willingly. When the team formed this year in Mar/Apr I was actually reluctant to put my name on the list out of fear of being pressured into going. I stuck to my guns and told them to stop scheduling me because I told them in April that I wasnt going to nationals in Oct.

I'm not retired but im at a point in my life where I am extremely flexible. For the last few years ive been doing charity work. For the last couple of years, ive been dedicated to learning tennis.

My life ambitions have nothing to do with tennis. Nothing at all. Tennis is just simply a new hobby ive taken up. People like me dont "casually" do most things. When I do something, I do it my best and with the best of my ability.

I couldnt earn what I have if I just half-assed everything. I certainly could not have what I have if I kept committing to things and canceling. There is no way to have what I have if you delay to the last min instead of confronting a problem at its source.

NTRPolice said:

Some people, "rec tennis" is all they have.

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And I believe those people need to get perspective. And I say this as someone who spends a TON of time talking about tennis, organizing tennis, and managing tennis teams. There are simply things more important than rec tennis. Having a baby falls into that category.

NTRPolice said:

You have no idea, do you?

A lot of the people here think that im somehow bitter over this. I'm not. This didnt affect me in any way. I dont care about 3.0 nationals, in fact, I declined to go this year because I simply did not want to play 3.0 adult anymore. I "de-earned" a spot on the team, willingly. When the team formed this year in Mar/Apr I was actually reluctant to put my name on the list out of fear of being pressured into going. I stuck to my guns and told them to stop scheduling me because I told them in April that I wasnt going to nationals in Oct.

I'm not retired but im at a point in my life where I am extremely flexible. For the last few years ive been doing charity work. For the last couple of years, ive been dedicated to learning tennis.

My life ambitions have nothing to do with tennis. Nothing at all. Tennis is just simply a new hobby ive taken up. People like me dont "casually" do most things. When I do something, I do it my best and with the best of my ability.

I couldnt earn what I have if I just half-assed everything. I certainly could not have what I have if I kept committing to things and canceling. There is no way to have what I have if you delay to the last min instead of confronting a problem at its source.

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Your nuts. You have what? Defending this all you have is insanity. You can't compare trying hard for something and this circumstance. Rec tennis is simply not important. It should not be.

I just cancelled on my match for sat morning. My sons football game has an earlier game time. My friend was disappointed and so was I. Should I of stuck to my guns and honor my commitments and tell my kid screw you I'm playing tennis? Make your mom go by herself with you. if I didn't try this hard to honor my tennis match I will not get far in life? I think you know the answer.

arche3 said:

Your nuts. You have what? Defending this all you have is insanity. You can't compare trying hard for something and this circumstance. Rec tennis is simply not important. It should not be.

I just cancelled on my match for sat morning. My sons football game has an earlier game time. My friend was disappointed and so was I. Should I of stuck to my guns and honor my commitments and tell my kid screw you I'm playing tennis? Make your mom go by herself with you. if I didn't try this hard to honor my tennis match I will not get far in life? I think you know the answer.

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I sincerely doubt he does.

The vast majority of men, including myself, would prioritize the ever-changing needs of our wives over the static needs of our tennis teams. And most real men wouldn't tell our captains "my wife is making me stay"; we'd say we have to handle family business without assigning blame, and most captains would be mature enough to accept that. (The spot-on February / September dialogue posted above applies directly here.)

NTRPolice clearly lives in a different reality than I do. It's probably an interesting place.

Maybe the best thing is for me to tell NTRPolice a story that will get him more outraged than the thing with the new dad missing nationals.

In 2011, our team decided to make a run. I gave everyone the dates for playoffs as they became available and asked them to hold the dates open as I felt confident we would advance to Districts at the very least.

As the season finished and we began preparing for Districts, I again told everyone about the dates, telling them we needed all hands on deck.

Well, one of my players (let's call her Mary) has a very demanding, high-level job. No problem, I was willing to accommodate her schedule and limitations (including that she would be away for Sectionals in August). As a result, Mary only played two matches during the regular season, but she played with one of my best players and they did well.

The week before Districts, I asked my best player with whom she wished to partner and she said Mary. I email Mary and told her which matches I wanted her to play.

She replied saying she figured I probably wouldn't need her for Districts, so she had gone ahead and booked a beach house for Districts weekend.

: boggles :

Very disappointing, that. But, being a competent captain, I had maintained a roster of 20 players, so I just used someone else and we didn't have to default our playoff spot.

tenniscasey said:

I sincerely doubt he does.

The vast majority of men, including myself, would prioritize the ever-changing needs of our wives over the static needs of our tennis teams. And most real men wouldn't tell our captains "my wife is making me stay"; we'd say we have to handle family business without assigning blame, and most captains would be mature enough to accept that. (The spot-on February / September dialogue posted above applies directly here.)

NTRPolice clearly lives in a different reality than I do. It's probably an interesting place.

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When he gets married he will know..... women are complicated. Pregnant women are alien.

Cindysphinx said:

Maybe the best thing is for me to tell NTRPolice a story that will get him more outraged than the thing with the new dad missing nationals.

In 2011, our team decided to make a run. I gave everyone the dates for playoffs as they became available and asked them to hold the dates open as I felt confident we would advance to Districts at the very least.

As the season finished and we began preparing for Districts, I again told everyone about the dates, telling them we needed all hands on deck.

Well, one of my players (let's call her Mary) has a very demanding, high-level job. No problem, I was willing to accommodate her schedule and limitations (including that she would be away for Sectionals in August). As a result, Mary only played two matches during the regular season, but she played with one of my best players and they did well.

The week before Districts, I asked my best player with whom she wished to partner and she said Mary. I email Mary and told her which matches I wanted her to play.

She replied saying she figured I probably wouldn't need her for Districts, so she had gone ahead and booked a beach house for Districts weekend.

: boggles :

Very disappointing, that. But, being a competent captain, I had maintained a roster of 20 players, so I just used someone else and we didn't have to default our playoff spot.

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Well Cindy your just too smart. The better thing to do would be to never speak to her again. You should realise a ntrp adult team is just like being in the special forces in the military. We are fighting for our country and honor here. How dare she go on a vacation with her family and abandon seal team sphinx?

arche3 said:

Well Cindy your just too smart. The better thing to do would be to never speak to her again. You should realise a ntrp adult team is just like being in the special forces in the military. We are fighting for our country and honor here. How dare she go on a vacation with her family and abandon seal team sphinx?

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"Seal Team Sphinx." Man, that is good!

Well, as annoying as the whole thing was, I guess I can see it from the player's perspective. The captain doesn't make any guarantees to the player that she will actually play, yet the captain wants everyone to commit to attending. You have to expect that some folks will see that particular bargain as a bit one-sided.

NTRPolice said:

You have no idea, do you?

A lot of the people here think that im somehow bitter over this. I'm not. This didnt affect me in any way. I dont care about 3.0 nationals, in fact, I declined to go this year because I simply did not want to play 3.0 adult anymore. I "de-earned" a spot on the team, willingly. When the team formed this year in Mar/Apr I was actually reluctant to put my name on the list out of fear of being pressured into going. I stuck to my guns and told them to stop scheduling me because I told them in April that I wasnt going to nationals in Oct.

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So, YOU could have been the 8th? And you didn't help out your team?

Cindysphinx said:

"Seal Team Sphinx." Man, that is good!

Well, as annoying as the whole thing was, I guess I can see it from the player's perspective. The captain doesn't make any guarantees to the player that she will actually play, yet the captain wants everyone to commit to attending. You have to expect that some folks will see that particular bargain as a bit one-sided.

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You should make t shirts with the slogan for your team!

Topaz said:

So, YOU could have been the 8th? And you didn't help out your team?

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No, I think he is saying he wasn't a member of that particular team at all and is just relating the gossip he has heard from the captain and elsewhere.

My understanding is that NTRPolice self-rated as a 3.0, didn't get bumped and so is a 3.0C, but didn't want to play 3.0.

What's strange is that someone in that position *who professes to be interested in going to nationals* would decline to take advantage of his computer rating by playing for a strong 3.0 team. I mean, going as a 3.0 was surely his best chance to go. Besides, given how hard it is to get the stars to align for you such that you go to nationals, it is weird to throw away an opportunity willy nilly.

What I'm saying is that passing on 3.0 by figuring you'll be strong enough as a 3.5 or 4.0 is kind of nutty. Take my case a few years back. I was a 3.0 for two years, and then I was bumped up. I was never a dominant 3.0. So NTRPolice could be unlucky and get bumped when he isn't dominant, which would mean his chances of going to Nationals is close to zero.

But hey, if someone doesn't want to play their computer rated level because it is not challenging and is boring or whatever, I understand. That sentiment is very inconsistent with the goal of going to nationals, though.

Why is NTR self rating as 3.0 with that serve? There are going to be lots of complaints.

Topaz said:

So, YOU could have been the 8th? And you didn't help out your team?

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I shouldnt even have to answer this...

It's not the same team. I already said this had/has nothing to do with me. Not the same team. Not the same players. Did not ruin my chances at anything ect.

Let's just say it was the same team for the sake of argument.

There is no possible way I could have helped. By the time New Dad flaked out the regular season was already well over and done. I did not meet the minimum number of games required to play in a play off. So, I know it sounds easy for you to say, but there is no possible way I could have done anything if I was in this position. Unless of course you mean borrow his ID and pretend to be him. At this point in this thread, im surprised people arnt suggesting this.

But, I guess I can just take the blame in this hypothetical situation for not volunteering to play more and taking into account that people are making commitments they cant honor.

-I can also blame the captain for "simply" not recruiting twice as many players because I have to assume he wanted the exact minimum out of stupidity.
-I can also blame the college students who couldnt suddenly leave school and travel states away to play nationals because some people still go to college these days and pay for it themselves.
-I can also blame the people with more money than others for not simply handing over their credit cards and buying someone else a ticket.
-I was wrong to assume that people take should take rec tennis seriously, I mean, if you're not a 5.5 and under 25, you cant possibly take it seriously.
-I can also blame USTA for not allowing us to go with 7 and making an exception because New Dad has a baby because they should be happy for him.


It's all so clear now. Why couldnt this make sense before?

Cindysphinx said:

What's strange is that someone in that position *who professes to be interested in going to nationals* would decline to take advantage of his computer rating by playing for a strong 3.0 team. I mean, going as a 3.0 was surely his best chance to go. Besides, given how hard it is to get the stars to align for you such that you go to nationals, it is weird to throw away an opportunity willy nilly.

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Really? I started as a 3.0 "S" in 2011. In 2012 I was a 3.0 "C" and im playing up (so I dont have to self-rate up) so I can move on.

I declined to go because I know ive far surpassed the 3.0 level of tennis and I cannot in good conscience play 3.0 nationals. "Willy nilly"? No.

"Character."

That's the word you're looking for.

sureshs said:

Why is NTR self rating as 3.0 with that serve? There are going to be lots of complaints.

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There are, but because im a "C" rate they cant actually do anything. I'm not exactly proud of that either.

Right now, im probably one of the best 3.0's on the planet and im not just saying that. Because im so out of level im moving on willingly by playing up. It's the reason why I didnt go to nationals even though im entitled to do so and honestly... I think most people would.

I was a self rate last year. I was a computer rate this year. I improved so fast that NTRP was not going to keep up with me. Ignoring advice from people who obviously want me to stay down, I played up so I could move on.

While most people want to milk a low rating for as long as possible there are some people who want to move on and play up in good conscience.

3.0 is below me. Way below me. I'm not waiting for the computer to catch up. I'm helping the computer do its thing by playing up.




PS: I DO want to go to nationals some day. I'm not going to do it like this. I will see how 3.5 goes and if its clear im well above that level next year ill decline going to nationals if there is a team.

I want to go to nationals to play tennis. I dont want to go to nationals for a level which im clearly well above. I want to be competitive, not overpowered.

NTRPolice said:

I shouldnt even have to answer this...

It's not the same team. I already said this had/has nothing to do with me. Not the same team. Not the same players. Did not ruin my chances at anything ect.

Let's just say it was the same team for the sake of argument.

There is no possible way I could have helped. By the time New Dad flaked out the regular season was already well over and done. I did not meet the minimum number of games required to play in a play off. So, I know it sounds easy for you to say, but there is no possible way I could have done anything if I was in this position. Unless of course you mean borrow his ID and pretend to be him. At this point in this thread, im surprised people arnt suggesting this.

But, I guess I can just take the blame in this hypothetical situation for not volunteering to play more and taking into account that people are making commitments they cant honor.

-I can also blame the captain for "simply" not recruiting twice as many players because I have to assume he wanted the exact minimum out of stupidity.
-I can also blame the college students who couldnt suddenly leave school and travel states away to play nationals because some people still go to college these days and pay for it themselves.
-I can also blame the people with more money than others for not simply handing over their credit cards and buying someone else a ticket.
-I was wrong to assume that people take should take rec tennis seriously, I mean, if you're not a 5.5 and under 25, you cant possibly take it seriously.
-I can also blame USTA for not allowing us to go with 7 and making an exception because New Dad has a baby because they should be happy for him.


It's all so clear now. Why couldnt this make sense before?



Really? I started as a 3.0 "S" in 2011. In 2012 I was a 3.0 "C" and im playing up (so I dont have to self-rate up) so I can move on.

I declined to go because I know ive far surpassed the 3.0 level of tennis and I cannot in good conscience play 3.0 nationals. "Willy nilly"? No.

"Character."

That's the word you're looking for.



There are, but because im a "C" rate they cant actually do anything. I'm not exactly proud of that either.

Right now, im probably one of the best 3.0's on the planet and im not just saying that. Because im so out of level im moving on willingly by playing up. It's the reason why I didnt go to nationals even though im entitled to do so and honestly... I think most people would.

I was a self rate last year. I was a computer rate this year. I improved so fast that NTRP was not going to keep up with me. Ignoring advice from people who obviously want me to stay down, I played up so I could move on.

While most people want to milk a low rating for as long as possible there are some people who want to move on and play up in good conscience.

3.0 is below me. Way below me. I'm not waiting for the computer to catch up. I'm helping the computer do its thing by playing up.




PS: I DO want to go to nationals some day. I'm not going to do it like this. I will see how 3.5 goes and if its clear im well above that level next year ill decline going to nationals if there is a team.

I want to go to nationals to play tennis. I dont want to go to nationals for a level which im clearly well above. I want to be competitive, not overpowered.

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Hate to break it to you buddy.... my 11 year old son would beat you right now.
Your not way above 3.0. If your results give You a C rating this is where your at. There are guys at every ntrp at the top of level. Your probably there.
I have played plenty of guys who look higher than beginner but are still beginners due to a late start. Just improve and when you get better you will move up. the computer do ntrp is pretty good about this. I find the levels match up pretty well.

NTRPolice said:

(hence the "maybe they should have had a team fundraiser to get an abortion).

.

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He was joking. Get a sense of humor or get over it.

This thread is so fascinating.

The basic issue appears incredibly simple, yet the argument goes off in so many directions.

It's been fun to watch this from beginning to (end).

NTRPolice said:

Right now, im probably one of the best 3.0's on the planet and im not just saying that.

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Which planet?

NJ1 said:

He was joking. Get a sense of humor or get over it.

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I guess that NTRPolice didn't see my modest proposal as the logical conclusion to the tact that the captain took. I simply cannot see how anyone would be mad that a player on their team wasn't prioritizing tennis over having a baby. Or that someone could see the commitment to the tennis team as trumping the commitment to their family.

NTRPolice said:

I shouldnt even have to answer this...

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I get that this was not your team, but you seem to have some inside info, and I'm curious about something, so please answer this if you can:

What was the captain's plan in case someone got injured or sick right before nationals?

Because the way you describe it, there were exactly 8 players, and losing the guy whose wife was expecting prevented the whole team from making the trip to Nationals. And then that guy has received all the blame from the captain and the team.

So what instead if that guy had honored his commitment to the team, but then someone else got injured in an accident the day before the trip to Nationals? What would have happened? Would the team have had to miss Nationals? Would the team have blamed the injured guy for getting injured? Or did the captain have a contingency plan for this?

Seems to me the captain is at fault here for not taking into account that in general unexpected stuff can happen.

r2473 said:

This thread is so fascinating.

The basic issue appears incredibly simple, yet the argument goes off in so many directions.

It's been fun to watch this from beginning to (end).

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170+ replies in just over a day... And not over yet.

tenniscasey said:

Which planet?

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Planet Confidence. Looks a lot like Earth, but with more big strong oak trees, lions and whiskey.

-----------

slowfox said:

Planet Confidence. Looks a lot like Earth, but with more big strong oak trees, lions and whiskey.

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Sounds like Wyoming. Not very many 3.0s in Wyoming.

OrangePower said:

I get that this was not your team, but you seem to have some inside info, and I'm curious about something, so please answer this if you can:

What was the captain's plan in case someone got injured or sick right before nationals?

Because the way you describe it, there were exactly 8 players, and losing the guy whose wife was expecting prevented the whole team from making the trip to Nationals. And then that guy has received all the blame from the captain and the team.

So what instead if that guy had honored his commitment to the team, but then someone else got injured in an accident the day before the trip to Nationals? What would have happened? Would the team have had to miss Nationals? Would the team have blamed the injured guy for getting injured? Or did the captain have a contingency plan for this?

Seems to me the captain is at fault here for not taking into account that in general unexpected stuff can happen.

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Ok, this is my 3rd try at responding. I'm trying to be really careful with this because of how this thread turned out. I dont want to "keep this going" in the sense that I want the arguments to die down already.

I am writing this response because I dont want you to think im ignoring you especially since your question seems like an honest one.

I dont know what the plan was if someone got injured or if there was some other unfortunate circumstance. While its pure speculation, I dont think the Captain would have responded this way if someones wife got cancer or someone became injured.

There were more than 8 people on the team. The others were people who couldnt commit, like one person being deployed and a college student whos parents prohibited him to go (not up for discussion; parental overrule, when he told me this part I laughed). I believe there were 10 or 12 people total. For the sake of this discussion, only the 8 "prior commits" were of any importance. The others were basically "long shots" or straight up "no".

Im not sure what USTA's policy is on injuries. I can only assume that the team needs to check in the minimum 8 at the start. If they cannot, they are not scheduled. I guess it is possible that you could fly someone up there in a wheelchair to check in, but then say they're out due to injury. I'm not being sarcastic this time, im trying to actually consider how that will play out.

I've played at 3.0 nationals. Our team went with 9 players. 5 matches in 3 days is awfully tough for the singles players in particular - even more so in the 90+ degree heat in Tucson. We had a player cramp-out in his singles match on Saturday while up a set and a break (fortunately we didn't need the win). Another player injured his foot during the weekend and was pretty badly hampered by Sunday.

So overall I think both sides are correct. The guy shouldn't have committed to play without giving a big caveat that he was expecting a child. The captain also shouldn't have planned on making a run with only 8 players available.

Finally, at 3.0 sectionals that year we came across the best 3.0 (self rated) I've seen. He definitely had a 100+ first serve that he could place in the box and an 80+ second. Every team that he played against filed a self-rate grievance that was denied ("we'll let the computer decide"). I'm pretty sure that he "managed" his scores/record during the season to avoid a DQ. There are plenty of players at 3.0 and 3.5 that have skills well beyond those levels. It would be nice if at districts/sectionals there would be at least some official who could say "that player is clearly out of level".

NTRPolice, Thank you for the explanation of what exactly happened, so far as you know.

I still say your captain is at fault and does not know how to captain a nationals-bound team.

When you know you have people whose ability to make it to nationals is iffy, you cannot count them on your squad. You should give careful consideration about whether you should have them on the team at all (if it prevents others from joining who could make the trip, or if their playing matches means that others do not qualify).

What we do know from your explanation is that this captain knew before the last couple of matches had been played that his team was too small. He should have taken a roll call and learned that he only had 8 commits (including New Dad), a student, a soldier and a poor guy. He should have then begged you to join and probably tried to find a couple more guys to join as well.

'Cause hoping to go to Nationals with only 11 eligible players on your roster is very risky.

Anyway, please understand what I am telling you about having blown what might be your only chance to be on a nationals-bound team (as you have identified that as a goal). At nationals, pretty much everyone is way above their computer-rated level. You would have been nothing special there. I am trying to tell you there was no ethical reason why you shouldn't have joined this 3.0 team, played enough matches to qualify, and then gone to nationals if that is your wish.

What you have done is skip that opportunity in the belief that you can go as a 3.5 or 4.0. That will likely require you to be on a strong team at a time when you are at the top of your rating level. That may or may not happen.

Also keep in mind that it is much easier for a guy to get to nationals as a 3.0 than as a 3.5 or 4.0. There are fewer 3.0 men's teams, so there is less competition all around. Once you get to 3.5 and 4.0 mens, there are so many folks competing that it gets awfully difficult to make a run.

Anyway, good luck.

NTRPolice, I didn't read the whole thread...I don't have the time or inclination. So I did not see that you had not qualified.

I think Cindy hit the nail on the head here, though, that you missed a big opportunity.

Topaz said:

NTRPolice, I didn't read the whole thread...I don't have the time or inclination. So I did not see that you had not qualified.

I think Cindy hit the nail on the head here, though, that you missed a big opportunity.

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Topaz -- when are you gonna be on one of my teams, huh? I'm still waiting . . .

NTRPolice said:

Ok, this is my 3rd try at responding. I'm trying to be really careful with this because of how this thread turned out. I dont want to "keep this going" in the sense that I want the arguments to die down already.

I am writing this response because I dont want you to think im ignoring you especially since your question seems like an honest one.

I dont know what the plan was if someone got injured or if there was some other unfortunate circumstance. While its pure speculation, I dont think the Captain would have responded this way if someones wife got cancer or someone became injured.

There were more than 8 people on the team. The others were people who couldnt commit, like one person being deployed and a college student whos parents prohibited him to go (not up for discussion; parental overrule, when he told me this part I laughed). I believe there were 10 or 12 people total. For the sake of this discussion, only the 8 "prior commits" were of any importance. The others were basically "long shots" or straight up "no".

Im not sure what USTA's policy is on injuries. I can only assume that the team needs to check in the minimum 8 at the start. If they cannot, they are not scheduled. I guess it is possible that you could fly someone up there in a wheelchair to check in, but then say they're out due to injury. I'm not being sarcastic this time, im trying to actually consider how that will play out.

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Appreciate your response. I brought up the accident/injury scenario because of course the reaction would not have been the same (i.e. blame) towards the injured person in that case, as you also point out.

It's just that for me both scenarios (injury and expecting) fall into the same "unfortunate circumstance" category from a captaining point of view. Either way as a captain you need to have a plan to deal with it (and it's the same plan in both cases - need more people as backup!), which this captain does not seem to have had.

Conveniently, the captain used the "revoked commitment" as an excuse allowing him to shift the blame away from himself and towards the player, which would not have been the case had there been an injury instead. To me, that is just cowardly on the part of the captain - just trying to shift the blame for something (losing a player at the last moment) he should have had a plan in place for anyway, and that was his responsibility.

Back to the OP...

I had an occasion where someone asked me to be on a team *months* in advance of the season. Being in nursing school, I did not want to commit and say yes until I had registered for classes and gotten my clinical schedule how I wanted it (and needed it in order to play tennis and work).

This person gave me a week.

Well, registration had a specific date, and it was not within that week. I explained this, and emphasized that I really did want to play.

I still got a week.

Well, I let the 'deadline' come and go. He said he would no longer 'hold' the spot of me on the team. Even though, at that point, I had my schedule and was good to go.

This happened in July. For a team that has not yet started play. I found the whole thing rather ridiculous...and still do.

So I think some captains need a reality check. Life many times will come before tennis. And while you may be a big fish in a small pond one season, next season that could all change...so its better not to burn any bridges.

Cindysphinx said:

Topaz -- when are you gonna be on one of my teams, huh? I'm still waiting . . .

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After graduation!

Possibly next spring! I *should* graduate in May.

Topaz said:

Back to the OP...

I had an occasion where someone asked me to be on a team *months* in advance of the season. Being in nursing school, I did not want to commit and say yes until I had registered for classes and gotten my clinical schedule how I wanted it (and needed it in order to play tennis and work).

This person gave me a week.

Well, registration had a specific date, and it was not within that week. I explained this, and emphasized that I really did want to play.

I still got a week.

Well, I let the 'deadline' come and go. He said he would no longer 'hold' the spot of me on the team. Even though, at that point, I had my schedule and was good to go.

This happened in July. For a team that has not yet started play. I found the whole thing rather ridiculous...and still do.

So I think some captains need a reality check. Life many times will come before tennis. And while you may be a big fish in a small pond one season, next season that could all change...so its better not to burn any bridges.

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Yeah, I understand. But still . . .

I actually may start telling folks I will not be holding spots for them. I have never done that, as I don't wish to be rude and demanding to a whole group of people because a few are unreliable. And when you are recruiting strong players, they have options. If you try to be a tyrant, they will balk.

That said, a smart captain of a playoff-bound team holds 1-2 roster positions open for situations such as yours.

NTRPolice said:

If you need a "crystal ball" to know that committing to nationals when your wife is pregnant and giving birth about that time you have to be the most daft person ever.

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Trumped by the 50 y.o. captain who doesn't foresee an issue with a 30 yo couple expecting their first baby during nationals.

Cindysphinx said:

Yeah, I understand. But still . . .

I actually may start telling folks I will not be holding spots for them. I have never done that, as I don't wish to be rude and demanding to a whole group of people because a few are unreliable. And when you are recruiting strong players, they have options. If you try to be a tyrant, they will balk.

That said, a smart captain of a playoff-bound team holds 1-2 roster positions open for situations such as yours.

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I thought he was being a tyrant. And I balked. Made me think twice about playing for him, but then it was out of my hands.

I will now enjoy playing *against* him.

Wow, this is quite a thread! I've been a Captain for 6 years and are team members not committed and very selfish? You betcha. I get all kinds of last minute excuses, etc. that they can't play, that they don't want to go to sectionals because they are in a town they don't want to travel to, etc., etc.

There, however, are always excuses that are legitimate and hopefully you have enough players on your team to fill the roster anyway!

Excuses like, a family member died, an injury, you have to help an elderly parent get moved into a nursing home, your child is really sick and your spouse (if you have one) is unavailable to help. Life happens, tennis is tennis!

As you can see, there are excuses that are acceptable; the other ones that I get all the time are just infuriating!

Spokewench said:

Wow, this is quite a thread! I've been a Captain for 6 years and are team members not committed and very selfish? You betcha. I get all kinds of last minute excuses, etc. that they can't play, that they don't want to go to sectionals because they are in a town they don't want to travel to, etc., etc.

There, however, are always excuses that are legitimate and hopefully you have enough players on your team to fill the roster anyway!

Excuses like, a family member died, an injury, you have to help an elderly parent get moved into a nursing home, your child is really sick and your spouse (if you have one) is unavailable to help. Life happens, tennis is tennis!

As you can see, there are excuses that are acceptable; the other ones that I get all the time are just infuriating!

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Could it be that the same people, in life, are the ones who call in sick on Mondays or Fridays, are always in a rush, say dogs ate their homework, my alarms didn’t go off, and have family emergencies every month?
At work, 20% of the staff has 80% of those issues…over and over.

Cindysphinx said:

This is a non-issue.

If the player is so friggin' sure that the match will not happen due to rain, the player should just stay home.

If the player is wrong and the match happens, the player will have a lot of explaining to do (and in our league will owe $68 in court fees for causing a default).

So. Make your choice and live with the consequences.

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That is a terrific point, and will be my attitude in the future.

Taxvictim said:

That is a terrific point, and will be my attitude in the future.

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Only problem is in a lot of leagues the money is collected prior to beginning of season so the court costs are already paid for. Can't make someone pay again for a court they already paid for.

I have been a captain for 4 years in a row but after the 2012 adult season I decided not to captain again for some time. The things that did not bother me much until last year made me really angry this year. I guess I am burnt out.

Here is my *story* of the 2012 season:

When I sent out invitation to join the team, player A replied that he was out of country for work but he will join when he returns. He returned 4 weeks after the season began. He told me that he had been away for too long and needed some time to settle down. I told him to let me know when he was ready. I have a clear policy that I expect players to mark their availability a week before a match. I fill the lineup from the available players and send it out 3-4 days before the match. So this guy never got back to me and did not mark his availability for next few weeks. Then one day after I sent out the lineup he emails me that he was available for the match. Too late, I told him. Immediately he shoots another email asking when was he going to get his first match. So I remind him that he had to mark his availability at least a week before each match. He says he is available for the next match and I tell him right away that he will be in the lineup since he had not played so far. Then 4 days before the match we have a practice. I partner him in doubles. Again I tell him that he was in the lineup for the away match over the weekend. Next day I email the lineup to the team.

On the day of the match we met for warm-up on our home courts. This guy did not show up. I called him on his cell. He answers the call and asks: "Is there a match today? I am sorry, I did not see your email!". That day we did not have a backup player. So I had to cancel my plans for the afternoon and play in his place. I still got him into 2 out of remaining 4 matches. Later this guy was complaining to others that I did not give him enough matches.

There are many such stories. But not everything is bad. There are some good stories as well. I have made some very good friends through USTA leagues. So no complaints. But being a captains does take its toll on you.

^You do realize that if you had followed up your line-up email asking him for confirmation, you would have received something like the following reply:

"Yes, I heard you the first four times you told me. Sheez."

Cindysphinx said:

^You do realize that if you had followed up your line-up email asking him for confirmation, you would have received something like the following reply:

"Yes, I heard you the first four times you told me. Sheez."

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My captain sends another email if I forget to confirm. Which does happen.

tennis4josh said:

On the day of the match we met for warm-up on our home courts. This guy did not show up. I called him on his cell. He answers the call and asks: "Is there a match today? I am sorry, I did not see your email!". That day we did not have a backup player. So I had to cancel my plans for the afternoon and play in his place. I still got him into 2 out of remaining 4 matches.

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Seriously? No chance in hell I would ever play someone again who was a no-show for a match. Its simply not worth trying to accommodate players like that.

Cindysphinx said:

^You do realize that if you had followed up your line-up email asking him for confirmation, you would have received something like the following reply:

"Yes, I heard you the first four times you told me. Sheez."

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I ask people to confirm by email, but he had already confirmed in person when I talked to him during the practice.

spot said:

Seriously? No chance in hell I would ever play someone again who was a no-show for a match. Its simply not worth trying to accommodate players like that.

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It was a bit awkward situation. I have known the guy for years and his wife is friends with my wife. I had a large team and did not really need him. But I considered that after returning from abroad mid-season he would not be able to join any team. So I decided to take him. What made me really angry was that he went on to blame me for not getting more matches.

The problem is that people take their captains for granted. Everyone thinks that it's no big deal if they had to back out once from their commitment due to unforeseen reasons, but that means the captain has to deal with more than a dozen surprises (typically one per match) in the season.

I understand that this is recreation and I never hold it against the guys if something comes up last minutes. But some people have very loose definition of "unforeseen event".

I have a guy who has backed out more than once on the day of the match because he realized it was going to be really hot for the afternoon match and the opponents were a weak team. Of course he never admits why he "really" backed out. He calls me in the morning and says: "Hey Captain, I am not feeling 100% this morning and I don't want to sacrifice our chances of winning. Can you find a substitute". But he looked OK when he played singles the previous night, and I know I will see him again next morning playing singles.

tennis4josh- The problem is that you have a captain that puts up with that type of behavior. When guys on my team are unreliable then I use them only as subs. If you stop treating that like acceptable behavior then you won't have to deal with it anymore.

Yes stuff comes up and you have to deal with it. But if someone tried to pull that more than once then they would simply be a sub from then on. And maybe then they would either be more reliable or they would move on and find another team- either way it is no longer a problem for you as captain.

Don't reward behavior you wish to discourage. IF someone does something that makes your job exponentially tougher as captain but they are simply put in the lineup again the next week then they will rightly think that it wasn't a big deal and are more likely to do it again.

spot said:

tennis4josh- The problem is that you have a captain that puts up with that type of behavior. When guys on my team are unreliable then I use them only as subs. If you stop treating that like acceptable behavior then you won't have to deal with it anymore.

Yes stuff comes up and you have to deal with it. But if someone tried to pull that more than once then they would simply be a sub from then on. And maybe then they would either be more reliable or they would move on and find another team- either way it is no longer a problem for you as captain.

Don't reward behavior you wish to discourage. IF someone does something that makes your job exponentially tougher as captain but they are simply put in the lineup again the next week then they will rightly think that it wasn't a big deal and are more likely to do it again.

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You are right, but as I said in my original post I am not complaining. Along with every bad experience there have at least 2 good ones. In my 4 years of captaining I have made a trip to nationals. So I am pretty content. There are certain benefits of being the captain. I can play with my partner of choice and I can play as many matches I want to. Plus I don't have to put up with a bad captain. I make the rules. In return I have to put up with some unpleasant things. No big deal. These are grown ups. if they are being stupid or insensitive or outright rude then I let them be that. It's not my job to help them be a better person and it's certainly not for me to teach them a lesson. I believe in karma. When I can't take the s***t anymore I back off and don't form a team, as I am doing right now. I have made so many friends that I can easily find a place in at least half a dozen teams.

I was simply sharing my stories to continue this discussion. I am hoping that some people will share how they run their teams and I would learn a thing or two from them. In addition I hope that the players who read these stories will understand their captain's side and be more supportive.

Life is good!!

-Josh

The solution (freezing out the bad player) has its own issues.

Say Josh had decided simply not to play the unreliable player. What does that player do? Does the player consider what he may have done to warrant such treatment?

Nope. He bashes the captain to anyone who will listen. He assumes the reason he isn't in the line-up is that the captain is incompetent, doesn't recognizes his tennis genius, the captain is biased in favor of others, or it's an oversight.

Eventually, he will just ask the captain why he isn't playing. The captain will have to explain the issue with reliability (or whatever it is).

Rather than go through all that, perhaps it is better to just confront the player from the get-go and say, "Bill, I'd like to play you more, but we've had two instances when you were late. I can't take a chance on a default."

I have confronted two players about problematic behavior. In both cases it was because of unsportsmanlike behavior that made people reluctant to partner with them. In both cases, the players left the team of their own accord.

Honesty -- the best freeze-out of all!