WTF Winner Will Be Player Of The Year???

Tennis_Hands · Nov 11, 2012

If the general cosistency is the measuring stick, then Djokovic wins.

If the number of big titles is deciding, then, whoever of the two wins the WTF final wins.

forzamilan90 · Nov 11, 2012

Sabratha said:
It's still a toss up. 1) Djokovic is ending the year at #1 having made the finals of three majors, winning one of them and losing in the semifinals of another.

2) Federer had a miracle run at Wimbledon, losing in the semifinals of the French Open and the Australian Open and only made the quarterfinals of the US Open.

I'd still pick Djokovic over Federer this year, but it's as close as it can get.

Yes very close, but considering they both have 1 majors, 3 masters, and whoever wins tomorrow gets a WTF title, I figure it's a good way of saying who did better. Granted Djokovic did get to more slam finals, but just Fed getting on that path to reclaiming number 1 (considering how awesome Djoko was last year) is impressive. Very close though. If Fed wins tomorrow, even with Djoko as number 1, I'd say Fed's year was more impressive (especially considering his age and circumstances)

NatF · Nov 11, 2012

Depends on whether winning big titles matters or going deep in slams/masters do. I think it's a mix of both. If Federer wins tomorrow he'll lead Djokovic in titles and in the h2h this year. Important stats. But personally this year I feel Djokovic has been the one to beat, he's gone deeper and been more consistant in the tournaments. I think the number 1 ranking is a good indicator of the best player of the year. It'll be close though.

Murray is officially out of contention though...

timnz · Nov 11, 2012

Gonzo_style said:
Maybe for you, but it's the only tournament that you can win even with two losses! QUOTE]

And that has never happened in the more than 40 year history of the tournament.

stringertom · Nov 11, 2012

Tomorrow is my tiebreaker. Today eliminated Murray from this talk. So it's down to Fed or Djok. If Rogi wins, he will have beaten Djok at a major, a MS1000 and the WTF...a nice triumvirate of venues. To have reclaimed #1 from being so far behind is also ammo for my vote. If Djok wins, he's the obvious choice for all the reasons everyone has already listed.

Good luck to both of them! This is the way it should be decided...#1 vs #2! it took two great comebacks today to achieve the matchup we deserve.

sonicare · Nov 11, 2012

Let me ask you guys a question

Would you rather win WTF or get to a slam final?

What about a masters 1000 win vs a slam final?

What about win a 500 tournament vs slam final?

win a 250 vs a slam final?

Prisoner of Birth · Nov 11, 2012

sonicare said:
Let me ask you guys a question

Would you rather win WTF or get to a slam final?

What about a masters 1000 win vs a slam final?

What about win a 500 tournament vs slam final?

win a 250 vs a slam final?

Slam-final for all, but the WTF is tempting.

Deleted member 307496 · Nov 11, 2012

sonicare said:
Let me ask you guys a question

Would you rather win WTF or get to a slam final?

What about a masters 1000 win vs a slam final?

What about win a 500 tournament vs slam final?

win a 250 vs a slam final?

Stupid question, slam final.

World Beater · Nov 11, 2012

Novak clearly deserves #1...and his consistency in big tournaments shows this through all the points he has earned.

BUt...

If federer wins tomorrow - he POTY. 31yrs, wins wimbledon, back to #1 and then owns major rivals at WTF once again.

No need to give two awards for the same thing

POTY doesnt have to be #1 in the world. #1 = objective pt system which rewards consistency.

POTY - Impressive, outstanding player of the year..could be someone overcoming the odds or having a breakthrough run.

Prisoner of Birth · Nov 11, 2012

World Beater said:
Novak clearly deserves #1...and his consistency in big tournaments shows this through all the points he has earned.

BUt...

If federer wins tomorrow - he POTY. 31yrs, wins wimbledon, back to #1 and then owns major rivals at WTF once again.

No need to give two awards for the same thing

POTY doesnt have to be #1 in the world. #1 = objective pt system which rewards consistency.

POTY - Impressive, outstanding player of the year..could be someone overcoming the odds or having a breakthrough run.

That's an interesting and agreeable way of looking at it.

RF20Lennon · Nov 11, 2012

Prisoner of Birth said:
Slam-final for all, but the WTF is tempting.

Slam final but the WTF is HIGHLY tempting

Deleted member 307496 · Nov 11, 2012

World Beater said:
Novak clearly deserves #1...and his consistency in big tournaments shows this through all the points he has earned.

BUt...

If federer wins tomorrow - he POTY. 31yrs, wins wimbledon, back to #1 and then owns major rivals at WTF once again.

No need to give two awards for the same thing

POTY doesnt have to be #1 in the world. #1 = objective pt system which rewards consistency.

POTY - Impressive, outstanding player of the year..could be someone overcoming the odds or having a breakthrough run.

But consistency means rewards. I.E; POTY.

Steve0904 · Nov 11, 2012

In short I agree with World Beater. To me the winner tomorrow is the POTY. And to answer sonicare's question, I'd take a slam final over all BUT winning the WTF.

mattennis · Nov 11, 2012

It doesn't matter.

To win the WTF tomorrow is as great an achievement that anything else is irrelevant right now.

Both players want it badly, and it is not for any POTY award.

The WTF is the fifth most important title of the year and has an enormous prestige.

The Nº1 player of the year is Djokovic no matter what, but that is irrelevant right now. Tomorrow will be a great battle.

RF-17-GOAT · Nov 11, 2012

Whoever wins tomorrow imho.

kishnabe · Nov 11, 2012

This is so awesome......we will know tommorow!

timnz · Nov 11, 2012

Official ATP Answer to your question

sonicare said:
Let me ask you guys a question

Would you rather win WTF or get to a slam final?

The official ATP answer to your question is that the WTF is bigger.

WTF winner wins 1500 points or 1300 points (depending if they were unbeaten or lost 1 match in the Round Robin phase - remember no one in 43 years of the WTF has lost more than one match and won the tournament) - whereas a Slam Finalist wins 1200 points.

Hence 1500 or 1300 > 1200 - therefore WTF wins over Slam final.

(Having said that making Slam finals is very impressive - and a great achievement in itself).

World Beater · Nov 11, 2012

Sabratha said:
But consistency means rewards. I.E; POTY.

Not necessarily.

The ATP already gives an award for the best player of the year.

It is called ATP YEAR END #1.

This award has already been won by djokovic.

POTY could be the same player or may be someone else.

But it rewards something more subjective than ATP YE #1. For many people what federer has done at 31 is more impressive than what djokovic has done at 24.

That could be one reason why POTY could be federer. But for me he only wins this if he wins tomorrow.

Otherwise djokovic is POTY for me.

The bottom line is there is no clear cut criteria for POTY but for ATP YE #1, there obviously is one...

NadalAgassi · Nov 11, 2012

No way Djokovic wont sweep the Player of Year awards even if Federer wins IMO. They only override official rankings if there is a major difference in the prestige or some value of the success, which is not the case here, especialy not in Federer's favor. An example of this is Serena in the WTA this year who will likely sweep the Player of the Year awards despite her year end #3, and Kvitova over Wozniacki last year since Kvitova had a WAY better year despite Wozniacki's bizarre computer #1 rank. If Federer wins the WTF he will have the same # of Masters as Djokovic, weaker slam performances, 2 less slam finals, and the WTF title. At best a roughly equal (probably still inferior) performance. Absolutely nothing that would be close to overruling the computer rankings for Player of the Year. Meanwhile if Djokovic wins he would be way ahead of Federer on the year.

Bobby Jr · Nov 11, 2012

Winning majors means everything here - so they're all on an even keel in that respect.

Being runner or up a semi-finalists in a major means nothing compared to winning an Olympic gold medal. At this stage the Olympic gold is worth as much as another major imo - at least in kudos when considering the player of the year award. Murray has two ticks this year in that respect (Olympic Gold, USO) - Djokovic, Federer and Nadal only one each.

Imo, if Federer wins the WTF then Murray should be player of the year... Even though the WTF is worth more in points the Olympics is a grander achievement this year - because it was Murray who won it. It's been his breakthrough year and the peak of his career. The same can't be said for Djokovic or Federer.

kaku · Nov 11, 2012

It all depends on what the ATP thinks is second most valuable to the majors

timnz · Nov 11, 2012

Already have the answer

kaku said:
It all depends on what the ATP thinks is second most valuable to the majors

Well we already have the answer to that. The ATP themselves have already outlined what they see is second most valuable to the majors.

WTF - 1500 or 1300 points (depending on whether the winner lost 0 or 1 round robin match)

Grand Slam runner up - 1200 points

Olympics Win - 750 points

It is the ATP's own ranking system.

Bobby Jr · Nov 11, 2012

timnz said:
It is the ATP's own ranking system.

In points maybe, but not in kudos...

No-one goes down in history for being a runner up at a major compared to winning an Olympic gold medal.

veroniquem · Nov 11, 2012

World Beater said:
Not necessarily.

The ATP already gives an award for the best player of the year.

It is called ATP YEAR END #1.

This award has already been won by djokovic.

POTY could be the same player or may be someone else.

But it rewards something more subjective than ATP YE #1. For many people what federer has done at 31 is more impressive than what djokovic has done at 24.

That could be one reason why POTY could be federer. But for me he only wins this if he wins tomorrow.

Otherwise djokovic is POTY for me.

The bottom line is there is no clear cut criteria for POTY but for ATP YE #1, there obviously is one...

Of course if Djoko wins WTF, then there's not even a possible discussion about Djoko being POTY since he already did better than Fed in masters and in slams. It would be his 6th title of the year too.

timnz · Nov 11, 2012

But

veroniquem said:
Of course if Djoko wins WTF, then there's not even a possible discussion about Djoko being POTY since he already did better than Fed in masters and in slams. It would be his 6th title of the year too.

But isn't what people are debating - what if Federer wins the WTF? Federer will then have 2 of the top 5 titles, whereas nadal, djokovic and murray will only have 1 each of the top 5 titles.

timnz · Nov 11, 2012

Bobby Jr said:
In points maybe, but not in kudos...

No-one goes down in history for being a runner up at a major compared to winning an Olympic gold medal.

Yes Olympics has kudos, but we can't take it too far. After all, it is only the number 15 event of the year in terms of points won.

Tennis_Hands · Nov 12, 2012

NadalAgassi said:
If Federer wins the WTF he will have the same # of Masters as Djokovic, weaker slam performances, 2 less slam finals, and the WTF title. At best a roughly equal (probably still inferior) performance. Absolutely nothing that would be close to overruling the computer rankings for Player of the Year. Meanwhile if Djokovic wins he would be way ahead of Federer on the year.

It all depends on what you use as a measuring tool.

If it is a general consistency (weeks at #1, overall performance) Djokovic is #1 hands down.

If the number of titles/big titles is a measuring tool, then, I cannot see how Djokovic is #1, in case that Federer wins the WTF.

However, I cannot but laugh at your unconscious drive to bring Federer down, seen by the bolded part of your post. Factoring in the same thing twice, are we?

Prisoner of Birth · Nov 12, 2012

Tennis_Hands said:
It all depends on what you use as a measuring tool.

If it is a general consistency (weeks at #1, overall performance) Djokovic is #1 hands down.

If the number of titles/big titles is a measuring tool, then, I cannot see how Djokovic is #1, in case that Federer wins the WTF.

However, I cannot but laugh at your unconscious drive to bring Federer down, seen by the bolded part of your post. Factoring in the same thing twice, are we?

That's the NA we know and love to hate. And did I mention his fail-predictions?

merlinpinpin · Nov 12, 2012

5555 said:
I'll repeat again: there are 4 big tournaments.

Let's play your game, here--is that a fact or an opinion?

merlinpinpin · Nov 12, 2012

Sabratha said:
Stupid question, slam final.

Not that stupid. I would clearly take a Masters (ie WTF) win over a slam final. Not an M1000's final, though.

merlinpinpin · Nov 12, 2012

Sabratha said:
But consistency means rewards. I.E; POTY.

So Azarenka is your WTA player of the year, right?

cc0509 · Nov 12, 2012

Bobby Jr said:
Winning majors means everything here - so they're all on an even keel in that respect.

Being runner or up a semi-finalists in a major means nothing compared to winning an Olympic gold medal. At this stage the Olympic gold is worth as much as another major imo - at least in kudos when considering the player of the year award. Murray has two ticks this year in that respect (Olympic Gold, USO) - Djokovic, Federer and Nadal only one each.

Imo, if Federer wins the WTF then Murray should be player of the year... Even though the WTF is worth more in points the Olympics is a grander achievement this year - because it was Murray who won it. It's been his breakthrough year and the peak of his career. The same can't be said for Djokovic or Federer.

I agree with you that in terms of kudos Andy Murray could have been considered player of the year if he had won the WTF but now that he can't win the WTF, he can't be player of the year even though he won a major and the OG. If Federer wins the WTF today, you have to give POTY to him. That would give Federer 7 ATP titles including a slam and 3 Masters 1000 titles. In addition you have to look at the circumstances. Federer is 31 years old and long past his prime yet he was beating guys 24/25 and in their absolute primes including Nadal, Murray and Djokovic to win most of these titles? Not to mention the fact that Federer reclaimed the number one spot from Djokovic in a year that is supposed to be one of Djokovic's best years of his career? In addition, Federer won the silver medal in the Olympics.

I also agree with you about the slam final issue. No doubt Novak has been the most consistent player of the year by making it further in the slams but really so what? Who really cares about being a slam finalist? If you don't win the slam does anybody really remember?

Again for consistency Novak is the man but in terms of more impressive achievements, you would have to give that to the old man Federer if he were to win the WTF today.

5555 · Nov 12, 2012

merlinpinpin said:
Let's play your game, here--is that a fact or an opinion?

It is a fact that slams are big tournaments. It is not a fact that Olympics and WTF are big tournaments.

NatF · Nov 12, 2012

5555 said:
It is a fact that slams are big tournaments. It is not a fact that Olympics and WTF are big tournaments.

Yeah it is...the WTF especially is seen as a big tournament. It's not a slam but it's still the 5th biggest event of the year. It has a lot of history.

cc0509 · Nov 12, 2012

5555 said:
It is a fact that slams are big tournaments. It is not a fact that Olympics and WTF are big tournaments.

Yes they are big tournaments. The WTF is next to slams in terms of ranking points and the Olympics, while lower than a Masters 1000 in terms of ranking points, is higher in prestige to all of the top players than a Masters 1000 is.

5555 · Nov 12, 2012

NatF said:
Yeah it is

cc0509 said:
Yes they are big tournaments.

In your opinion they are big tournaments. It is not a fact that they are big tournaments.

NatF · Nov 12, 2012

5555 said:
In your opinion they are big tournaments. It is not a fact that they are big tournaments.

Prove they're not big tournaments. Specifically prove the WTF with it's 1500 points reward for an undefeated winner is not big.

merlinpinpin · Nov 12, 2012

5555 said:
It is a fact that slams are big tournaments. It is not a fact that Olympics and WTF are big tournaments.

Actually, no. All is a matter of opinion.

Slams are big tournaments, but so are the Masters and Olympics.

So are the M1000's, too, for that matter. Slams just happen to be bigger. And that was no necessarily always the case (see the AO in the 70's and most of the 80's, it was then less important than the Masters and Dallas WTC finals).

So, everything is a matter of opinion.

Of course, you might also decide that only the bigger stages count. But in this case, what you wrote shows you're biased. If you only aim for the very top of the line in tennis, then there is only one single tournament, not four. And that is Wimbledon. All the others are smaller, and I mean all of them. Does that mean they're not big, as you say?

5555 · Nov 12, 2012

NatF said:
Prove they're not big tournaments. Specifically prove the WTF with it's 1500 points reward for an undefeated winner is not big.

Is it a fact that Olympics and WTF are big tournaments? Yes or no?

merlinpinpin said:
Slams are big tournaments, but so are the Masters and Olympics.

It is a fact that slams are big tournaments. It is questionable weather Olympics and WTF are big tournaments.

Of course, you might also decide that only the bigger stages count. But in this case, what you wrote shows you're biased. If you only aim for the very top of the line in tennis, then there is only one single tournament, not four. And that is Wimbledon. All the others are smaller, and I mean all of them. Does that mean they're not big, as you say?

Wimbledon, AO, US Open and FO are all in the same category: slams. Therefore, your arguments fails.

cc0509 · Nov 12, 2012

5555 said:
In your opinion they are big tournaments. It is not a fact that they are big tournaments.

No, it is a fact that Slams are the biggest tournaments followed by YEC, Masters 1000 and the Olympics in terms of ranking points. In terms of prestige the Olympics is a big deal for the biggest players. This is not something we can really dispute.
Is something wrong with you?

NatF · Nov 12, 2012

This guy is a tool. What kind of evidence is he asking us to put forward? Clearly the sentiments of the players and the ATP's own ranking points aren't enough for him.

merlinpinpin · Nov 12, 2012

5555 said:
Is it a fact that Olympics and WTF are big tournaments? Yes or no?

Yes, no question about that. The Masters is the 5th bigger event of the year (was 4th for a great many years, too). The Olympics weren't a big tournament a few years ago, but they're getting there. This year at Wimbledon surely helped, too.

5555 said:
It is a fact that slams are big tournaments. It is questionable weather Olympics and WTF are big tournaments.

No. The Masters has been a big tournament for about 40 years, while the AO has been for about 25 years only. Does that mean that the Masters is bigger than the AO?

5555 said:
Wimbledon, AO, US Open and FO are all in the same category: slams. Therefore, your arguments fails.

That's the difference betwen you and everybody else here. We *do* have an argument, you do not. You're setting arbitrary limits just because it suits your boy. As I said before, if you only recognize the very very best, then you stop at Wimbledon. If you don't, you have to recognize that there are many more big tournaments during a tennis year. Some are just bigger than others and, as said before, none of them are bigger than The Championships.

5555 · Nov 12, 2012

cc0509 said:
No, it is a fact that Slams are the biggest tournaments followed by YEC, Masters 1000 and the Olympics in terms of ranking points. In terms of prestige the Olympics is a big deal for the biggest players. This is not something we can really dispute.

It is a fact that slams are big tournaments. This is not something we can really dispute. If biggest players think Olympics are a big deal, it does not mean it's a fact that Olympics is a big tournament.

Is something wrong with you?

Do you have common sense? It seems not.

cc0509 · Nov 12, 2012

5555 said:
It is a fact that slams are big tournaments. This is not something we can really dispute. If biggest players think Olympics are a big deal, it does not mean it's a fact that Olympics is a big tournament.

Do you have common sense? It seems not.

I am not disputing that slams are the biggest tournaments but the YEC follows slams according to ATP ranking points, do you not get this fact?

5555 · Nov 12, 2012

NatF said:
Clearly the sentiments of the players and the ATP's own ranking points aren't enough for him.

Can you explain how ATP rankings prove that it's a fact that Olympics and WTF are big tournaments?

merlinpinpin said:
Yes, no question about that.

No, it's your opinion. It's not a fact.

The Masters is the 5th bigger event of the year (was 4th for a great many years, too).

If the Masters is the 5th biggest event of the year it does not mean it's a fact that it's a big tournament.

The Olympics weren't a big tournament a few years ago, but they're getting there. This year at Wimbledon surely helped, too.

Maybe in future Olympics is going to be a big tournament, but as of now it's not a fact that Olympics is a big tournament.

No.

Yes.

The Masters has been a big tournament for about 40 years, while the AO has been for about 25 years only. Does that mean that the Masters is bigger than the AO?

No.

That's the difference betwen you and everybody else here. We *do* have an argument, you do not. You're setting arbitrary limits just because it suits your boy.

We all have argument. The difference is that I have strong argument and you have weak argument.

As I said before, if you only recognize the very very best, then you stop after Wimbledon. If you don't, you have to recognize that there are many more big tournaments during a tennis year. Some are just bigger than others and, as said before, none of them are bigger than The Championships.

Wimbledon, AO, US Open and FO are all in the same category: slams. Therefore, your argument fails.

5555 · Nov 12, 2012

cc0509 said:
but the YEC follows slams according to ATP ranking points, do you not get this fact?

Can you explain how ATP ranking points prove it's a fact that WTF is a big tournament?

NatF · Nov 12, 2012

5555 said:
Can you explain how ATP ranking points prove it's a fact that WTF is a big tournament?

Can you suggest a better metric other than the ATP ranking points?

5555 · Nov 12, 2012

NatF said:
Can you suggest a better metric other than the ATP ranking points?

You did not answer my question.

cc0509 · Nov 12, 2012

5555 said:
Can you explain how ATP ranking points prove it's a fact that WTF is a big tournament?

Do you even hear what you are saying? If you are trying to say the YEC with 1500 points is not a big tournament than how can you claim a slam with 2000 is a big tournament? You can't say on the one hand a slam with 2000 points is the biggest tournament but the YEC with 1500 points is not the next biggest tournament. Do you fail to see that logic?

NatF · Nov 12, 2012

5555 said:
You did not answer my question.

Don't see why I should. You offer no basis for why you reject the sentiments of the players or the ATP. You simply say it's not factual. If anyone is simply giving an opinion here it's you.

Offer something constructive like what you think makes a tournament big. Otherwise we're going in circles...

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