Nadal's performances have affected tournament significance

McEnroeisanartist · Nov 12, 2012

Does anyone else think that Federer's achievement of 6 championships at the ATP Tour World Finals is underrated because his biggest rival, Nadal, has only reached one final there in his career, so it must not be that important of a tournament (some call it a glorified exhibition).

While Nadal's achievement of 7 French Opens has been overrated because his biggest rival, Federer, has done so well there and Nadal has consistently beat him there.

kishnabe · Nov 12, 2012

It just *******s who discredit WTF worth.

Prisoner of Birth · Nov 12, 2012

McEnroeisanartist said:
Does anyone else think that Federer's achievement of 6 championships at the ATP Tour World Finals is underrated because his biggest rival, Nadal, has only reached one final there in his career, so it must not be that important of a tournament (some call it a glorified exhibition).

While Nadal's achievement of 7 French Opens has been overrated because his biggest rival, Federer, has done so well there and Nadal has consistently beat him there.

LOL, only on this forum and only Nards call the WTF a glorified exhibition. That said, the French Open is worth about 5 times as much as a WTF title.

The Bawss · Nov 12, 2012

Sorry, this thread is a bad thread.

The Bawss · Nov 12, 2012

Prisoner of Birth said:
LOL, only on this forum and only Nards call the WTF a glorified exhibition. That said, the French Open is worth about 5 times as much as a WTF title.

Lol what? Gaudio won the FO, Ferrero won the FO, Muster won the FO, Chang won the FO. These clowns never won anything "big" other than the FO. It certainly isn't worth 5 WTFs.

Prisoner of Birth · Nov 12, 2012

The Bawss said:
Lol what? Gaudio won the FO, Ferrero won the FO, Muster won the FO, Chang won the FO. These clowns never won anything "big" other than the FO. It certainly isn't worth 5 WTFs.

I'd rather be Gaudio than 5 Davydenkos

Murrayfan31 · Nov 12, 2012

Nadal hates indoors. So this is a bad thread no doubt.

nikdom · Nov 12, 2012

Didn't affect the USO all those years Nadal wasn't showing up in the late stages let alone win it.

Don't see any merit to OP's argument.

veroniquem · Nov 12, 2012

McEnroeisanartist said:
Does anyone else think that Federer's achievement of 6 championships at the ATP Tour World Finals is underrated because his biggest rival, Nadal, has only reached one final there in his career, so it must not be that important of a tournament (some call it a glorified exhibition).

While Nadal's achievement of 7 French Opens has been overrated because his biggest rival, Federer, has done so well there and Nadal has consistently beat him there.

7 at any slam cannot be overrated. Are you kidding? I can't believe Fed fans are getting so out of control before Fed even wins the damn thing. How foolish they're gonna look if he loses.

The Bawss · Nov 12, 2012

veroniquem said:
7 at any slam cannot be overrated. Are you kidding? I can't believe Fed fans are getting so out of control before Fed even wins the damn thing. How foolish they're gonna look if he loses.

He ain't losing it. Book it.

Prisoner of Birth · Nov 12, 2012

veroniquem said:
7 at any slam cannot be overrated. Are you kidding? I can't believe Fed fans are getting so out of control before Fed even wins the damn thing. How foolish they're gonna look if he loses.

Federer doesn't lose. He lets his opponent win :twisted:

McEnroeisanartist · Nov 12, 2012

veroniquem said:
7 at any slam cannot be overrated. Are you kidding? I can't believe Fed fans are getting so out of control before Fed even wins the damn thing. How foolish they're gonna look if he loses.

I never predicted that Federer would win today or the tournament for that matter. I predicted that Federer would lose to Del Potro in the third round robin match and in the semifinals to Murray.

I just think Federer's record at the tournament is underrated and the importance of the French Open has been elevated largely due to Nadal winning it so many times and defeating the Greatest Player of All Time 5 times there.

woodrow1029 · Nov 12, 2012

McEnroeisanartist said:
Does anyone else think that Federer's achievement of 6 championships at the ATP Tour World Finals is underrated because his biggest rival, Nadal, has only reached one final there in his career, so it must not be that important of a tournament (some call it a glorified exhibition).

While Nadal's achievement of 7 French Opens has been overrated because his biggest rival, Federer, has done so well there and Nadal has consistently beat him there.

and in 2 years, Federer knocked Nadal out in the semis. Do you take that into account at all?

Towser83 · Nov 12, 2012

Nadal winning 7 RG title is not over-rated. It's an amazing achievement.

Though some people do under rate the WTF, and we know why.

veroniquem · Nov 12, 2012

McEnroeisanartist said:
I never predicted that Federer would win today or the tournament for that matter. I predicted that Federer would lose to Del Potro in the third round robin match and in the semifinals to Murray.

I just think Federer's record at the tournament is underrated and the importance of the French Open has been elevated largely due to Nadal winning it so many times and defeating the Greatest Player of All Time 5 times there.

Nothing that Fed does is underrated on this board. There's a new thread popping up every time he hits a winner. For the WTF streak, multiply that by 200. Scary.

6-1 6-3 6-0 · Nov 12, 2012

wangs78 · Nov 12, 2012

McEnroeisanartist said:
Does anyone else think that Federer's achievement of 6 championships at the ATP Tour World Finals is underrated because his biggest rival, Nadal, has only reached one final there in his career, so it must not be that important of a tournament (some call it a glorified exhibition).

While Nadal's achievement of 7 French Opens has been overrated because his biggest rival, Federer, has done so well there and Nadal has consistently beat him there.

Yes - definitely. Nadal gets a lot of cred for his FO wins because most of them came against Federer. It's unfair because in reality the reverse should be true - that Fed gets cred for winning things like the WTF AND making the FO finals so many times. But fans and analysts tend to just remember that Fed lost to Nadal in FO finals. It's unfortunate but what can you do.

jokinla · Nov 12, 2012

Nads only has 2 finals at the US Open, so what, it's a great tournament, and the WTF is just a notch below that, irregardless of what Nads has or hasn't done there.

batz · Nov 12, 2012

kishnabe said:
It just *******s who discredit WTF worth.

This. Just as it is only *******s who discredit OG worth. Decent fans of both players see both events for what they are - the biggest prizes after the slams.

woodrow1029 · Nov 12, 2012

If my calculations are correct, Nadal beat Federer 5 times at Roland Garros out of his 7 victories (4 times in finals, and 1 time in SF).

Out of Federer's 6 WTF championships, he has beaten Nadal 4 times (1 in a Final, 2 in SF, and once in RR play). In the 2 SF years, how is it Federer's fault that Nadal ended up in the other SF?

Also, is it just me, or does the OP have "underrated" and "overrated" backwards for what he is trying to insinuate?

wangs78 · Nov 12, 2012

woodrow1029 said:
If my calculations are correct, Nadal beat Federer 5 times at Roland Garros out of his 7 victories (4 times in finals, and 1 time in SF).

Out of Federer's 6 WTF championships, he has beaten Nadal 4 times (1 in a Final, 2 in SF, and once in RR play). In the 2 SF years, how is it Federer's fault that Nadal ended up in the other SF?

Also, is it just me, or does the OP have "underrated" and "overrated" backwards for what he is trying to insinuate?

You're missing the OP's point. The OP is saying that Nadal's FO wins have more heft because it was RF ont he other side of the net. Fed's WTF wins usually did not have Rafa on the other side so his WTF wins get underrated.

woodrow1029 · Nov 12, 2012

Well, it still doesn't make much sense to me, since Federer has beaten Nadal in the knockout rounds of 3 of his 6 WTF tournament wins.

veroniquem · Nov 12, 2012

Rafa is not the biggest rival Fed could have at WTF. Lots of players are better than Rafa indoor. Delpo for instance :twisted:

Crisstti · Nov 12, 2012

Who you won against has some effect on how much worth is attributed to a win. Fairly so IMO. Rafa's win in Wimbledon in 2008 is a bigger deal than his win in 2010 for that reason, for example.

Mustard · Nov 12, 2012

Fact is, Nadal's success against Federer on so many big stages torments some Federer fans. They can't stand how Nadal has leading head-to-heads against all his main rivals (18-10 vs. Federer, 19-14 vs. Djokovic and 13-5 vs. Murray), and wished Federer had such a record against his main rivals.

Sorry guys, but you can't have it all :twisted:

veroniquem · Nov 12, 2012

Good point Mustard.

Tennis_Hands · Nov 12, 2012

Mustard said:
Fact is, Nadal's success against Federer on so many big stages torments some Federer fans. They can't stand how Nadal has leading head-to-heads against all his main rivals (18-10 vs. Federer, 19-14 vs. Djokovic and 13-5 vs. Murray), and wished Federer had such a record against his main rivals.

Sorry guys, but you can't have it all :twisted:

It seems to me, that these days the *******s (and Mustards :roll: ) are touting the H2H. Most of the Federer fans have long ago moved on.

Living in the past, are we?

:twisted:

Other than that. Nadal performances didn't affect the importance of any event. No matter if he was doing OK or not.

On the other hand, the tournament directors are panicking, if Federer decides not to play. See Basel, for example.

coloskier · Nov 12, 2012

Mustard said:
Fact is, Nadal's success against Federer on so many big stages torments some Federer fans. They can't stand how Nadal has leading head-to-heads against all his main rivals (18-10 vs. Federer, 19-14 vs. Djokovic and 13-5 vs. Murray), and wished Federer had such a record against his main rivals.

Sorry guys, but you can't have it all :twisted:

True, but let's realize that it isn't Fed's fault that Nadal couldn't make it to the finals to meet Fed in a lot of those tourneys that Fed was definitely favored. And indoor hards isn't Nadal's record against Fed even worse than Fed's record against Nadal on clay?

Mustard · Nov 12, 2012

coloskier said:
And indoor hards isn't Nadal's record against Fed even worse than Fed's record against Nadal on clay?

It's 0-4, and as woodrow1029 has pointed out, Nadal has met Federer 4 times at the YEC over the years, so it's not like Nadal hasn't got to the stage to face Federer. He usually has.

single_handed_champion · Nov 12, 2012

None of Federer's records are ever underrated in an absolute sense, only people are spoiled for choice when it comes to them. Nadal will never have huge success indoors, so it doesn't matter what his record is there, and anyway, Federer has beaten him multiple times.

Finally, GS >> WTF, no matter which Slam. So no, 7 RGs can never be overrated.

zagor · Nov 12, 2012

Mustard said:
Fact is, Nadal's success against Federer on so many big stages torments some Federer fans. They can't stand how Nadal has leading head-to-heads against all his main rivals (18-10 vs. Federer, 19-14 vs. Djokovic and 13-5 vs. Murray), and wished Federer had such a record against his main rivals.

Sorry guys, but you can't have it all :twisted:

Convenient that the current members of top 4 are Fed's "main rivals" (despite all of them being 5-6 years younger) when it is to his detriment (H2H records) but when it comes to comparing # of slams (in which Nadal currently trails and most of his fans don't believe will reach), time spent as #1 etc. it's Fed weak era this, weak era that.

If Fed's main rivals are the same as Nadal's then the weak era excuse doesn't hold water when comparing the two, no?

zagor · Nov 12, 2012

On topic, while Nadal is arguably one of the best players of all time (or atleast will be by the time he hangs up his racquet) he's not more important than the game itself (no one is) so no his performance at WTF/YEC has not affected the tournament significance and while that tourney is certainly not an exo or the equivalent of a 250/500 event (like Nadal fan experts claim) it's still not close to being worth as a FO or any other slam for that matter (irregardless of Nadal's performances in those respective tourneys).

DropShotArtist · Nov 12, 2012

veroniquem said:
7 at any slam cannot be overrated. Are you kidding? I can't believe Fed fans are getting so out of control before Fed even wins the damn thing. How foolish they're gonna look if he loses.

Depends on where the field is stronger.

Crisstti · Nov 12, 2012

zagor said:
Convenient that the current members of top 4 are Fed's "main rivals" (despite all of them being 5-6 years younger) when it is to his detriment (H2H records) but when it comes to comparing # of slams (in which Nadal currently trails and most of his fans don't believe will reach), time spent as #1 etc. it's Fed weak era this, weak era that.

If Fed's main rivals are the same as Nadal's then the weak era excuse doesn't hold water when comparing the two, no?

Well, he ends up being compared to them because the ones his own age are too weak, relatively speaking.

zagor · Nov 12, 2012

Crisstti said:
Well, he ends up being compared to them because the ones his own age are too weak, relatively speaking.

Nothing to do with what I posted (and I definitely do not consider, Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, old Agassi, young Nadal etc. weak but that's irrelevant to this argument), the current top 4 are either Fed's main rivals or they aren't, it's a yes or no situation.

If they are his main rivals than the weak era argument doesn't have a leg to stand on when comparing Fed and Nadal (thus we concentrate on comparing their achievements) and if they aren't then the H2H argument doesn't stand.

I personally think that due to Fed's excellent longevity (compared to the Open Era greats atleast) you can't consider only 4 players to be his main rivals, he sort of faced two generation of players (and held his own which is a testament to his mettle) but that's just my opinion.

Clarky21 · Nov 12, 2012

Crisstti said:
Well, he ends up being compared to them because the ones his own age are too weak, relatively speaking.

This is true. I mean,do people think is tougher competiton between Cvac and Roddick? How about between Murray and Ljubicic? There is no comparison between those guys at all.

kaku · Nov 12, 2012

All the majors are just glorified exhibitions, only being played because of their history. Chennai is the only tournament that matters nowadays.

Tennis_Hands · Nov 12, 2012

zagor said:
I personally think that due to Fed's excellent longevity (compared to the Open Era greats atleast) you can't consider only 4 players to be his main rivals, he sort of faced two generation of players (and held his own which is a testament to his mettle) but that's just my opinion.

QFT

10chars

Ico · Nov 12, 2012

To a Nadal fan, H2H and secondary prizes like the Singles Gold Medal and Davis Cup trophy mean everything.
To a Federer fan, the record for most slams and most weeks at #1 cement his place as GOAT.

Repeat ad nauseam.

Crisstti · Nov 12, 2012

Clarky21 said:
This is true. I mean,do people think is tougher competiton between Cvac and Roddick? How about between Murray and Ljubicic? There is no comparison between those guys at all.

Nope, there isn't.

zagor · Nov 12, 2012

Clarky21 said:
This is true. I mean,do people think is tougher competiton between Cvac and Roddick? How about between Murray and Ljubicic? There is no comparison between those guys at all.

First of all Fed never played Ljubicic in slams (he's as much as his rival as David Ferrer is today) though his greatest triumph (winning a masters title)did come in the strong era year of 2010 (beat both Nadal and Novak on the way to the title btw.).

Secondly Mustard in his post didn't list Fed's (and/or Nadal's for comparison) H2H with Roddick which is my point basically, as you would say Clarky, Nadal fans need to make up their mind

Clarky21 · Nov 12, 2012

zagor said:
First of all Fed never played Ljubicic in slams (he's as much as his rival as David Ferrer is today) though his greatest triumph (winning a masters title)did come in the strong era year of 2010 (beat both Nadal and Novak on the way to the title btw.).

Secondly Mustard in his post didn't list Fed's (and/or Nadal's for comparison) H2H with Roddick which is my point basically, as you would say Clarky, Nadal fans need to make up their mind

Ljubicic was ranked 3 in the world at one point during Fed's peak/prime(IIRC). He is of that generation,which is all I was trying to say.

And Nadal losing to Ljubicic at IW was a disaster for him,and Nadal should have been embarrassed for losing that match.

zagor · Nov 12, 2012

Clarky21 said:
Ljubicic was ranked 3 in the world at one point during Fed's peak/prime(IIRC). He is of that generation,which is all I was trying to say.

Yes but he never faced off with Fed in slams (that I recall anyway) so given the value slams have over every other tourney in this era it's hard to look at him as a rival, not to mention that he ended the year as #5.

As I said, a good comparison is David Ferrer (although he's certainly better than Ljubo), he could have ended the year #4 if he won a few more matches, still wouldn't consider him to be a main rival for the top guys.

However, that still doesn't really have anything do with my main point.

Clarky21 said:
And Nadal losing to Ljubicic at IW was a disaster for him,and Nadal should have been embarrassed for losing that match.

Was it an "amazing disaster"

?

But you still gotta give props to Ljubo for winning a masters title in a strong era (when Gods walked the earth) in his 30s.

Deleted member 307496 · Nov 13, 2012

I don't think it takes anything away from their achievements.

Nadal's performances have affected tournament significance

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Hall of Fame

nikdom

Guest

Bionic Poster

Banned

Banned

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

Bionic Poster

Banned

Legend

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

Hall of Fame

Legend

Hall of Fame

Bionic Poster

Legend

Bionic Poster

Bionic Poster

Banned

Legend

Bionic Poster

Professional

Bionic Poster

Bionic Poster

Banned

Legend

Bionic Poster

Banned

Professional

Banned

Hall of Fame

Legend

Bionic Poster

Banned

Bionic Poster

Deleted member 307496

Guest

Similar threads