my 10 yr old son hates string movement

DustinW · Jan 10, 2013

Do I dare put a poly in his racket?

He plays with a Prince EXO3 Tour Team strung with Solinco Vanquish multi. He hits with only an average amount of topspin, but its still enough to cause quite a bit of string movement.

I'm sure people will say don't do it because it will hurt his arm, but I've never been convinced that either rackets or strings hurt peoples arms or shoulders. IMO, elbow and shoulder pain can almost always be connected to bad form.

I'm sure there are other juniors out there playing with poly, so I'm just hoping to here from others that can share their experience.

Anton · Jan 10, 2013

You can have all three - comfort, spin, and no movement.

Put multi on the main and soft poly on cross ( I use NXT2 main with Hyperion cross).

The poly cross will let the main slide back into place, so no string fixing.

It lasts ok too.

Doubles · Jan 10, 2013

I would stay away from it for a while longer. His body is still developing and will likely not be able to handle the stiffness of poly even an EXO racket. When he starts breaking multis in less than 2 or 3 hours, then you can consider a hybrid.

Doubles · Jan 10, 2013

Anton said:
You can have all three - comfort, spin, and no movement.

Put multi on the main and soft poly on cross ( I use NXT2 main with Hyperion cross).

The poly cross will let the main slide back into place, so no string fixing.

It lasts ok too.

This would be another good option.

mikeler · Jan 10, 2013

DustinW said:
Do I dare put a poly in his racket?

He plays with a Prince EXO3 Tour Team strung with Solinco Vanquish multi. He hits with only an average amount of topspin, but its still enough to cause quite a bit of string movement.

I'm sure people will say don't do it because it will hurt his arm, but I've never been convinced that either rackets or strings hurt peoples arms or shoulders. IMO, elbow and shoulder pain can almost always be connected to bad form.

I'm sure there are other juniors out there playing with poly, so I'm just hoping to here from others that can share their experience.

I would not put poly in. You've got two problems with regards to string movement going on here. First and foremost is the Exo3 Team. I've been using the Tour version the last 3 months and the O-ports combined with the open 16x18 pattern cause the strings to move like spaghetti. The other problem you have is the Solinco Vanquish, it moved around a lot on me when I tried it.

You can look through my multis thread and find one where I said it does not move around a lot. Prince Premiere Attack is a cheaper multi that did not move very much and was a lot better than Vanquish:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=352048

While arm pain may be attributed to bad form there are too many cases I hear of somebody switching to a stiff racket or stiff strings and then developing arm problems. As somebody who has had both golfer's elbow for a year and later tennis elbow for a year, I can tell you that equipment is a factor with arm health.

pvaudio · Jan 10, 2013

He's 10. Now is the time to convince him that string movement does NOT matter. If he's playing fine and not breaking strings, he doesn't need poly.

maxpotapov · Jan 10, 2013

mikeler said:
Prince Premiere Attack is a cheaper multi that did not move very much

... and not for a good reason. Strings just stick in place which makes the stringbed rather dull on impact and even somewhat harsh on arm.
Natural gut / sleek synthetics hybrid would be a better choice.

TennisCJC · Jan 10, 2013

Anton said:
You can have all three - comfort, spin, and no movement.

Put multi on the main and soft poly on cross ( I use NXT2 main with Hyperion cross).

The poly cross will let the main slide back into place, so no string fixing.

It lasts ok too.

This ^^^ is a good suggestion but I am still not convinced a 10 YO needs poly.

I disagree with the initial statement that all elbow issues can be linked to bad form. Playing too much and playing with tight poly strings can both cause elbow issue. There are a lot of good 4.5+ adult players on these boards that play at a fairly high level and they have pain issues related to poly strings. Andre Agassi's wrist injury occurred after he switched to poly strings. He stayed with the strings and he strung them tight but he paid a price.

If you use any poly for a 10 YO, definately use a multi in the mains and the poly in the cross. Also, drop the tension. If your son is playing with a multi at 58 lbs now, then string the multi in the mains at 52 and the poly cross at 48 lbs. A multi/poly hybrid at 52/48 will play as stiff as all multi at 58. Basically, drop the current all multi tension 4-6 lbs and then string the poly cross 4 lbs below the new multi tension. I have played hybrid in the mid 40s and they still have plenty of control.

Personally, I would try to hold off on any poly until the kid is 13-14 years old. You need reasonably fast swing speed to get the full benefit of poly and most 10 YOs are not going to have it. I wold try the prince premier attack or gamma TNT2 as these are synthetics that move less than others first.

mikeler · Jan 10, 2013

maxpotapov said:
... and not for a good reason. Strings just stick in place which makes the stringbed rather dull on impact and even somewhat harsh on arm.
Natural gut / sleek synthetics hybrid would be a better choice.

It does get a little bit stiffer as the string ages but the durability is very good for a multifilament. I did not get any harsh sensation from the string though.

WileyCoyote · Jan 10, 2013

Stringbed

I have recently been playing with full beds of VS or Wilson 16 ga gut. I also play with hybrids of the same strings with very slippery polys or co polys like Lux 4G, MSV Co Focus 1.18 and similar. I am not a string breaker.

Main tensions in the low 50's, poly crosses in the high 40's or low 50's. These tensions result in a very very soft feeling stringbed.

For me, the hybrid stringbeds are easier on my arm than the full bed gut. I think this may be due to the fact that the strings move easier against one another and then snap back needing little or no straightening. The gut also does not fray nearly as bad as it does in a full bed.

The gut/poly hybrid will likely fix his straightening problem, so:

You might have something like this strung up and see what he thinks about the feel. If he is a string breaker, then you can decide whether or not you can afford the gut or maybe use a premium multi in the mains.

My only problem is the polys playability changes and has to be restrung sooner than the gut which I do on my own machine, keeping the gut intact. Yes, it seems to work very well.

Hope this helps,

Harry

Larrysümmers · Jan 10, 2013

nope. he can get a string a ling or whatever that thing is.

maxpotapov · Jan 10, 2013

mikeler said:
It does get a little bit stiffer as the string ages but the durability is very good for a multifilament. I did not get any harsh sensation from the string though.

Yeah, but my point was when strings do not move at all (locked in place) the stringbed is a bit boardy/unresponsive.

To the OP, every time people talk about string movement they confuse lack of snap back with not moving at all.
No snap back = bad
No movement = bad
Movement + snap back = good

mikeler · Jan 10, 2013

maxpotapov said:
Yeah, but my point was when strings do not move at all (locked in place) the stringbed is a bit boardy/unresponsive.

To the OP, every time people talk about string movement they confuse lack of snap back with not moving at all.
No snap back = bad
No movement = bad
Movement + snap back = good

We shall agree to disagree.

I find with multifilament strings that the ones which stay locked into place seem to produce better spin.

db10s · Jan 10, 2013

WileyCoyote said:
I have recently been playing with full beds of VS or Wilson 16 ga gut. I also play with hybrids of the same strings with very slippery polys or co polys like Lux 4G, MSV Co Focus 1.18 and similar. I am not a string breaker.

Main tensions in the low 50's, poly crosses in the high 40's or low 50's. These tensions result in a very very soft feeling stringbed.

For me, the hybrid stringbeds are easier on my arm than the full bed gut. I think this may be due to the fact that the strings move easier against one another and then snap back needing little or no straightening. The gut also does not fray nearly as bad as it does in a full bed.

The gut/poly hybrid will likely fix his straightening problem, so:

You might have something like this strung up and see what he thinks about the feel. If he is a string breaker, then you can decide whether or not you can afford the gut or maybe use a premium multi in the mains.

My only problem is the polys playability changes and has to be restrung sooner than the gut which I do on my own machine, keeping the gut intact. Yes, it seems to work very well.

Hope this helps,

Harry

So you unstrung the poly but not the gut? And then you put new poly in?

TCF · Jan 10, 2013

==========================

WARPWOODIE · Jan 10, 2013

Try using string savers, maybe a 4 square inch of them in the center of the stringbed. Not only will it minimize sting movement, it will minimize breakages, and will also look "cool" for a 10 year old. I use the yellow soft version by Tournacross. It has a deeper cut that it covers 17 and 18 gauge strings...see graphic--->> (\0/), which will also act as teeth to grip the balls, adding more topspin.

maxpotapov · Jan 10, 2013

mikeler said:
We shall agree to disagree.

I find with multifilament strings that the ones which stay locked into place seem to produce better spin.

For multifilament strings, I agree. Because if they are not locked into place they move and (usually) do not snap back. But who plays with full bed multis anyway? :wink:

corners · Jan 10, 2013

maxpotapov said:
Yeah, but my point was when strings do not move at all (locked in place) the stringbed is a bit boardy/unresponsive.

To the OP, every time people talk about string movement they confuse lack of snap back with not moving at all.
No snap back = bad
No movement = bad
Movement + snap back = good

Yeah. And there is some evidence that strings that move and then snap back increase dwell time and thereby reduce shock, as WileyCoyote seems to be experiencing. I think this is why copoly strings start hurting people's arms too - the strings get notched and scuffed, increasing interstring friction, and at the same time lose enough tension so that the strings aren't stiff enough to snap back into place quickly. People who hit flat hate copoly strings, saying they break their arms, while topspin hitters often string full beds of copoly at pretty high tensions and don't complain. (This could also be a function of age.)

But I agree with the others, I don't think a ten year old should play with poly, even soft poly. Flexible strings that are slippery:

Prince Recoil
Ashaway 100% Zyex Monofilament (MonogutZX)
Any others?

MonogutZX is less stiff than pretty much any string aside from natural gut. I haven't tried it but it's slippery and smooth and might be the ticket for your ten year old. Ashaway's other Zyex strings, the Dynamite family, all have braided nylon outer wraps and get stuck out of place terribly. The ZX is the one to try.

Prince Recoil is just syngut with a teflon wrap. Plays like a syngut and doesn't get stuck out of place. It's been discontinued but you can find it still on the auction site.

Fearsome Forehand · Jan 10, 2013

Hybrid of some sort. Maybe a thin gauge poly main crossed with soft syn gut like OG Sheep Micro. Don't go super tight on tension since you are concerned about his arm.

How much does he play? If he puts in a lot of hours, it might not be a great idea to go to poly yet. I guess you could try it once as an experiment as see if he has any adverse effects.

Say Chi Sin Lo · Jan 10, 2013

Tell him to stop b****ing and string movement is going to happen. Maybe less with polys but they still move. It's barely a minor inconvenience.

That's like complaining about wanting to wear shoes, but hate tying/re-tying shoe laces.

Lakers4Life · Jan 10, 2013

+1 for the Ashaway 100% Zyex Monofilament (MonogutZX), it looks like a poly but plays like gut. Hardly any string movement at all. I have a client testing it out for Ashaway.

The other solution is the String Thing.

hmd · Jan 10, 2013

Why take the risk? he's only 10.

With mikeler thread help, my 12yo is now playing with PPA in a head speed elite. After 0.5 hour of play even the PPA move a fair bit as he hit with a fair bit of spin. The strings break after average 20 hours of play.

strings movement, cost of restringing are all inconveniences BUT good injury prevention.

DustinW · Jan 10, 2013

Interesting conversation... thanks for the feedback. I like hearing how different people feel about different strings. I personally dislike multis, because they feel a bit mushy and board-like at the same time... which is weird. And I've only played with gut once and I absolutely hated it. It felt like a board with zero spin.

To answer a few questions:

He is not a string-breaker, although he eventually notches the mains after quite a few hours of play.

He plays 3-6 hrs per week.

He really doesn't complain too much about the string movement. He just makes comments about it and he asked why mine don't move. I play with full Solinco Tour Bite.

I guess I might try a hybrid just to see what he thinks.

pvaudio · Jan 10, 2013

I urge you not to. He cannot possibly be generating the RHS needed to get the best out of poly. If he's not a string breaker, then you're just going to introduce the possibility of arm problems by him playing with dead poly after a week and a half.

Muppet · Jan 10, 2013

Straightening the strings is inconvenient, but the real reason he would use poly is because it's cool and grown-up. And he may try to stick with it even if it's not working out.

WileyCoyote · Jan 10, 2013

Restringing Crosses

For db10s:

When I decide the poly crosses need to be restrung, I mount the racquet in my 6 point machine as near as possible with the mounting clamp settings like they were when I finished the last restring.

I then carefully cut the crosses out, being sure not to nick the gut mains. At this point, I have a main only string bed just like it was when I finished putting in the mains for the first time.

Now I string the crosses just like I would if the mains had just been done. I first check the mains and if I find any notching, I use the side where the notching is less for the crosses to rub/contact this time. Slick poly does not notch nearly as bad as full gut or multi.

When the racquet is unclamped, the tensions on the clamps are just like they were when I mounted the racquet.

I have done this a number of times and have not found a downside yet.

Hope this helps,

Harry

sundaypunch · Jan 10, 2013

WileyCoyote said:
For db10s:

When I decide the poly crosses need to be restrung, I mount the racquet in my 6 point machine as near as possible with the mounting clamp settings like they were when I finished the last restring.

I then carefully cut the crosses out, being sure not to nick the gut mains. At this point, I have a main only string bed just like it was when I finished putting in the mains for the first time.

Now I string the crosses just like I would if the mains had just been done. I first check the mains and if I find any notching, I use the side where the notching is less for the crosses to rub/contact this time. Slick poly does not notch nearly as bad as full gut or multi.

When the racquet is unclamped, the tensions on the clamps are just like they were when I mounted the racquet.

I have done this a number of times and have not found a downside yet.

Hope this helps,

Harry

There are many people here that will tell you this is a bad idea. If you read through all the gut/poly hybrid threads there are a bunch of people that do this all the time and have no problems. I have done it as well and agree with you that there isn't a downside.

Anton · Jan 11, 2013

pvaudio said:
I urge you not to. He cannot possibly be generating the RHS needed to get the best out of poly. If he's not a string breaker, then you're just going to introduce the possibility of arm problems by him playing with dead poly after a week and a half.

nonsense, both the racket head speed and a week and a half comments.

pvaudio · Jan 11, 2013

Anton said:
nonsense, both the racket head speed and a week and a half comments.

Oh is it? Pray tell me where I have erred.

Anton · Jan 11, 2013

pvaudio said:
Oh is it? Pray tell me where I have erred.

1. Testing showed increased spin from increased main snap back at even moderate speeds (or no racket head speed at all, so long as the ball is coming it at a non-perpedicular angle to the stringbed).

2. There maybe some polys out there that go "dead" in 1 and half week, but there are many that last a long time without going dead. I have a racket with a year old SP Hyperion string job and it still hits just fine.

fortun8son · Jan 11, 2013

Try Wilson Red Alert.
Plays well, looks cool, resists movement, arm friendly, but still a syngut.

pvaudio · Jan 11, 2013

Anton said:
1. Testing showed increased spin from increased main snap back at even moderate speeds (or no racket head speed at all, so long as the ball is coming it at a non-perpedicular angle to the stringbed).

2. There maybe some polys out there that go "dead" in 1 and half week, but there are many that last a long time without going dead. I have a racket with a year old SP Hyperion string job and it still hits just fine.

You don't read.

1. He is 10. The amount of extra spin he will be generating on his strokes compared to what he would make with a multi is going to have a minimal effect at best, and definitely not one that will trouble opponents. He's not hitting with a lot of spin as it is since he's not breaking strings. If you don't hit with good RHS, you have no real reason to use poly aside from durability.

2. A week and a half for this player is 9 hours. He said he plays 6 hours a week or so. I urge you to find me a poly that isn't dead after ~10hrs of hitting. It just doesn't last that long when you're really hitting the ball. If you aren't hitting very hard and the string lasts much longer, then again: why on earth are you using poly?

pvaudio · Jan 11, 2013

OP, there is another far more important reason not to use poly at his age. Unless you're already playing the big tournaments, a neutral string that you don't have to think about should be standard issue. Poly has little power compared to multis, and while that may encourage him to swing harder, it also means you have to focus on playing to your string rather than to your technique. Some may argue that it would force him to generate power using his body rather than his arm. He would be learning that anyway.

TennisCJC · Jan 11, 2013

Yea, an adult 4.0-4.5 who hits moderately hard with moderate to good spin will get 5 to 10 quality hours out of a good poly like SigPro Hyp. You can get another 5-10 hours of practice time but there is a big difference as it will not have the same snap back attribute as new poly. It kind of feels dead, flat or more muted after the first 5-10 hours. If you hit harder with heavy spin, you'll get even fewer hours. I play SigPro Hyperion all the time and that's my experience.

UCSF2012 · Jan 11, 2013

He's 10. He needs the added power of full multi more than he does zero string movement. And learning on synthetics help learn control and perseverance. Learning on multi's are better for a developing player. All these matter more than not having to adjust the strings every once in a while. Do the pros and cons analysis: he should stick to multi's.

Shangri La · Jan 11, 2013

Gut + ISO speed pro has minimum string movement and is very comfortable.

dr. godmode · Jan 11, 2013

I grew using poly and an APD and never suffered any arm problems

NLBwell · Jan 11, 2013

He's 10. He's lucky to have a racket.

martini1 · Jan 11, 2013

Anton said:
You can have all three - comfort, spin, and no movement.

Put multi on the main and soft poly on cross ( I use NXT2 main with Hyperion cross).

The poly cross will let the main slide back into place, so no string fixing.

It lasts ok too.

I never tried multi main poly cross. How is it different from the other way around? The poly main should provide more spin and better snap back in the long run since the multi would tend to get loose, no?

pvaudio · Jan 11, 2013

^^^I think that synthetic mains and poly crosses are a waste of both strings. THe multi simply does not have the elasticity and resiliency of gut. In other words, as you said, the multi starts losing tension so quickly that it doesn't work as planned.

UCSF2012 · Jan 11, 2013

multi mains and poly crosses lasted 2 hours. Extreme notching everywhere. biggest waste of money in tennis.

TheCheese · Jan 11, 2013

I'd say you're right about what causes the pain. It's just that poly is harsher, so it makes injuries more likely if you have bad form than if you used something easier on the arm.

Anton · Jan 11, 2013

martini1 said:
I never tried multi main poly cross. How is it different from the other way around? The poly main should provide more spin and better snap back in the long run since the multi would tend to get loose, no?

It may provide a bit more spin than full poly because multi/natgut stretches further then poly, so the ball lands on the string, loads it and then the poly cross lets the main slide back adding spin.

I like that setup for smoother feel and better slow ball control than full poly, though on some frames I'd still use full poly if I feel I need more control on topspin strokes.

Anton · Jan 11, 2013

pvaudio said:
^^^I think that synthetic mains and poly crosses are a waste of both strings. THe multi simply does not have the elasticity and resiliency of gut. In other words, as you said, the multi starts losing tension so quickly that it doesn't work as planned.

hasn't happened to me, I've had nat gut main in my PS85 and that actually lasted shorter and got loose faster then the NXT2 main I still have in right now.

pvaudio · Jan 12, 2013

Anton said:
hasn't happened to me, I've had nat gut main in my PS85 and that actually lasted shorter and got loose faster then the NXT2 main I still have in right now.

Rubbish for two reasons. One, there is no string called NXT2. There is Wilson NXT ___ or Tecnifibre NRG2. Not sure which one you meant. More importantly, natural gut holds tension the best of all string types and is far more durable than any multifilament (unless you're using e Bay gut).

Bowtiesarecool · Jan 12, 2013

Your son is 10. He hasn't learned to deal with certain emotions yet. Tell him to suck it up. The reason poly can hurt you has little to do with technique and more to do with shock load. Poly's stiffness transfers more impact energy to your body. Compounding the issue is the low power makes you feel the need to swing harder. Which means even more shock to those tendons/muscles. Just because we have the technology doesnt mean it's necessary. Especially a ten year old who could not possibly generate the racquet head speed necessary totaled full advantage of stiffer strings.

Anton · Jan 12, 2013

pvaudio said:
Rubbish for two reasons. One, there is no string called NXT2. There is Wilson NXT ___ or Tecnifibre NRG2. Not sure which one you meant. More importantly, natural gut holds tension the best of all string types and is far more durable than any multifilament (unless you're using e Bay gut).

Yes NRG2, my mix up

I used babolat natural gut from TW, and I like NRG2 more

pvw_tf · Jan 12, 2013

DustinW said:
Do I dare put a poly in his racket?

Nope.

String movement is part of playing tennis.
How much is depending on:
- Gauge
- Tension
- String roughness.
- Racket head size
- String Pattern (18*20 ; 16*18.......)
- Quality of the string job
- Style of Play

For kids who can play, as thin as you can get, as forgiven as it can get. Thinner string can be strung with low tension and thinner string gives more bite on the spin.
Move up to thicker when breakage is getting you to high.

Best Option. Any soft 1.18 multi-filament string. Just to name one Tecnifibre 1.18 X-One BiPhase or NRg2. But there will be more options.

Peter

pvaudio · Jan 12, 2013

Anton said:
Yes NRG2, my mix up

I used babolat natural gut from TW, and I like NRG2 more

pvw_tf said:
Nope.

String movement is part of playing tennis.
How much is depending on:
- Gauge
- Tension
- String roughness.
- Racket head size
- String Pattern (18*20 ; 16*18.......)
- Quality of the string job
- Style of Play

For kids who can play, as thin as you can get, as forgiven as it can get. Thinner string can be strung with low tension and thinner string gives more bite on the spin.
Move up to thicker when breakage is getting you to high.

Best Option. Any soft 1.18 multi-filament string. Just to name one Tecnifibre 1.18 X-One BiPhase or NRg2. But there will be more options.

Peter

I grew up on NRG2 17. Still in my top 5 overall strings at spot #2 simply because it just works. However, it is not better nor more durable than Babolat VS.

pvw_tf · Jan 12, 2013

pvaudio said:
I grew up on NRG2 17. Still in my top 5 overall strings at spot #2 simply because it just works. However, it is not better nor more durable than Babolat VS.

But less in price.

In this case it is just about a top quality string for a young(er) more capable kid who plays a bit more then standard 1 or 2 hour(s) a week and learn tennis well and have the least impact on his arm.

There are a few strings which fit the request.

Peter

my 10 yr old son hates string movement

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