http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpptgXq5j4
typical misconception of confusing internal shoulder rotation with pronation?
typical misconception of confusing internal shoulder rotation with pronation?
Don't agree. Both ISR and forearm pronation are involved.
.
I understand... but pronation is just a by-product?
seems many are teaching the wrong thing? such as swing edge up karate style then pronate to square up the racket face..... that's a wrong picture to paint to the students.
SA - lets say we take ISR out of the picture... take a normal serving stance, but instead of having the right elbow in-line with the shoulder line (in which case ISR will help in RHS)..... we stick the right elbow forward, 90 degrees to the shoulder line..... so ISR would hit the ball straight to the left fence, therefore it's will not help on the RHS if we want to serve into the normal target.
now, relying on pronation alone, meaning that you drop the racket to back scratch, swing edge on to chop at the ball, and pronate to square up the face.
how do you generate speed in that scenario? there is not much there. or am I missing something? but this is how a lot of teachers explain the serve - edge on and pronate to hi-five.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InYd8IrFnkU
from the trophy position onwards, seems the racket is just like a door opening and shutting, there is very little to none of that chop and pronate stuff.... in other words, I don't think Fed has 'edge on' in mind at all.... seems to me from trophy to impact, his strings are always facing the ball.
MK - sorry i was talking about the serve, not the FH.
Uh no... from the start of the up of the racket the edge is on? Its slow mo and clearly its on edge as it starts up from trophy. Its not pan cake from trophy lol.
Agree, I thought that looked pretty clear from the video.
Many of the points that you are discussing must show clearly in this high speed video.
High speed video of serve. See also other serves especially those viewed from behind.
https://vimeo.com/27528701
that looks like a spin serve, hence more 'edge on'.
but Fed's flat serve looks like a pancake to me....
not in the sense of a beginner pancake with E grip, but in the sense that from trophy if he doesn't turn his body at all, he can pancake a ball straight into the right fence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InYd8IrFnkU
trophy is at 00:24 - his strings are facing the right fence.... he can pancake a ball to the right if he didn't turn his body to the target.
but he did, therefore he pancaked the ball to the opponent.
All pro serves get most of their racket head speed from ISR. ISR with a straight arm and the racket at an angle causes the face of the racket to turn, change angle.
"but Fed's flat serve looks like a pancake to me...." Could you find a high speed video that clearly shows what you mean.
Just stop.... your killing me.
what? explain.
and if he serves to the back bleachers it would be a reverse pan cake. BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT! ahh... you serve to the other side of the net. I am getting a migrane. need to stop reading dozus' trolling.... must stop.
ok - take a deep breath you grass hopper...
that IS the point.... he jumped and turned therefore he pancaked to the other side of the net.
I was trying to make a point about how you eliminate the jump and turn stuff to see what actually happened from the shoulder and up.
just took some xanax. Im good now
well, your description is kind of like this Seinfeld yada-yada-yada episode. Sure, he does have racket facing the right fence at 0.24 there's a lot that happens from that moment till he actually hits the ball.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InYd8IrFnkU
trophy is at 00:24 - his strings are facing the right fence.... he can pancake a ball to the right if he didn't turn his body to the target.
but he did, therefore he pancaked the ball to the opponent.
his ball striking side of racket goes through;
facing right fence, top up, at 0.24
facing left fence, top down
going up, edge facing the ball (at around 0.31), racket face still facing left fence,
finally as the arm pronates the face is hitting the ball squarely
racket face continues to turn from left facing to right facing (as a result of pronation), and the top goes down.
ok - take a deep breath you grass hopper...
that IS the point.... he jumped and turned therefore he pancaked to the other side of the net.
I was trying to make a point about how you eliminate the jump and turn stuff to see what actually happened from the shoulder and up.
to be serious though.... tell me, at which point is Fed swinging on edge.... take a snapshot, or just say pause at 0:xx seconds.
I am looking at this over and over, that racket looks like a barn door opening and closing.
what am I missing? seriously.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InYd8IrFnkU
trophy is at 00:24 - his strings are facing the right fence.... he can pancake a ball to the right if he didn't turn his body to the target.
but he did, therefore he pancaked the ball to the opponent.
Kill me now
I'm not sure what you mean. It is a rather complex racket motion, barely anything is 'always'.close enough, so the strings are always SQUARE to the path right?
sure. And than the racket face starts to turn from facing left to facing right. Ideally you want the racket to be facing opposite player's baseline when you hit the ball - so the contact is square (at least on the flat serve). The point is that during entire path, from start to finish, the racket is 'facing' the opposite baseline --only-- at the moment of contact, not before, not after. What is commonly referred to as 'pancake serve' is the motion where you have racket facing the opposite baseline (or maybe more accurately - from the side view you always only see the racket edge but never the strings) pretty much through entire motion. You can serve that way, but it requires intentionally keeping the racket in that position (meaning using muscles to do that) as you serve-swing - which is the opposite of 'being loose'. So no decent server does it.so at 0.31 edge is facing the ball, but the forward swing has not started yet! that racket is still on it's way to the extreme point of the back swing at about 0.32
I know. That's why why I was making a joke that in your original description went from 'his racket is facing the ball at .024' to 'he hit the ball' bypassing everythiinh that happens in between. You know, that important yada-yadait's not yada yada....minute details like this do make a huge difference.
that was my point - the teaching of swinging on edge then pronate forearm to hi-5 is wrong.
Disagree. It is (when taught well) an excellent way to teach the basic shape of this particular part of the serve, it is merely one "chunk" to be taught as part of a series of "chunks" - which, when linked together create the full, fluid motion.
He actually said "Federer" and "pancake" in the same sentence.
Frame 7...
Nice display.
1) Notice that the apparent length of the racket in frame 7 is very short. The racket's axis is mostly pointing back at the camera. In frame 7 the arm is approaching straight but not quite yet there.
2) Notice that the apparent length of the racket in frame 8 is about full length. Frame 8 is just before impact.
That apparent length change results from very roughly a 90° ISR rotation. At the same time the racket is going from edge on to the ball to face on at impact.
^^^most likely bevel 2 as that's where his index knuckle sits, but it depends how you want to define "hand" i guess.
I am a firm believer now.... watching him playing bird itch at the moment, and every 1st serve looks like a pancake..
from both guys for that matter.
I will be using this quote from you from time to time if you don't mind. This will replace dozu's "human racquet" as the go to chuckle inducing quote of TT.
... except the human racquet quote was actually correct.