Is comfort technology catching up with stiffness

Crocodile · Apr 22, 2013

I've noticed in the last 6 months many of the manufacturers have increased the stiffnes of their racquets, of note Dunlop with there 200 series of racquets. Buying a Volkl with a stiffness of 74 (X7) would have been unheard of in the past by a brand which prides itself in producing soft feeling racquets. There are not too many frames under 63 RA. some of the racquets that fit into this category are:
Volkl C10
Prince EXO Tours and Rebel
Tecnifibre VO2 315
Pacific X Force Pro's
Donnay Platinum 99
Pro Kennex Black Ace

The question is, has comfort technology improved to the point that a racquet with an RA of 68 and above be used with a soft multi be OK for arms and shoulders assuming that weight and balance characteristics are equal

corners · Apr 22, 2013

Crocodile said:
I've noticed in the last 6 months many of the manufacturers have increased the stiffnes of their racquets, of note Dunlop with there 200 series of racquets. Buying a Volkl with a stiffness of 74 (X7) would have been unheard of in the past by a brand which prides itself in producing soft feeling racquets. There are not too many frames under 63 RA. some of the racquets that fit into this category are:
Volkl C10
Prince EXO Tours and Rebel
Tecnifibre VO2 315
Pacific X Force Pro's
Donnay Platinum 99
Pro Kennex Black Ace

The question is, has comfort technology improved to the point that a racquet with an RA of 68 and above be used with a soft multi be OK for arms and shoulders assuming that weight and balance characteristics are equal

I'd be wary. I'm not sure how they are doing it, mainly with soft grommets and tricks like that. With a soft multi or gut, sure, you might get away with it. But what's the point? High stiffness will give you 1-2 extra mph on your shots. You can get the same pace benefit using gut/poly hybrid in one of those soft sticks. Stiff racquets are for suckers. (I jest, but personally don't think it's worth the risk.)

Bartelby · Apr 22, 2013

Stiff racquets are like a sugar hit and probably sell well quickly because of it.

fuzz nation · Apr 22, 2013

I know a couple of guys who would argue that softer co-poly strings are a "comfort technology", but they're still a less user-friendly option for many than other string options including multifibers. Gotta look upon any technology aimed at making stiffer fly swatters more comfortable with at least a little skepticism.

I'd say that those technologies can probably only go so far before actually rendering the racquet less stiff.

mikeespinmusic · Apr 22, 2013

I'll try to keep this simple without going into too much about anatomy and physiology.

Lets say I give you pain killers and push you over. Yes you're not feeling it right now. But it doesn't mean you're not getting the shock or the muscle tears from it.

If anyone's got a better analogy please share. Thats the best I got

IMO you can hit through hard hit balls better with a flexible racquet where as a stiff racquet causes your joints and arm to do the stretching and flexing to the load.

Man I love my Boris Becker DC London 93...

dje31 · Apr 22, 2013

Head Instincts ( at least for IGs & Graphenes ) have fairly high RA ratings, but they hide it well. They feel almost pillow-y, very muted. Not sure how they're pulling that off, but they do.

anubis · Apr 22, 2013

I don't think so. Stiff racquets are still stiff regardless of the technology. I agree with Bartelby: manufacturers are making stiff racquets because they sell like gang busters. There's an illusion of tremendous power, as if the frame itself shakes with potential energy.

Boricua · Apr 22, 2013

mikeespinmusic said:
I'll try to keep this simple without going into too much about anatomy and physiology.

Lets say I give you pain killers and push you over. Yes you're not feeling it right now. But it doesn't mean you're not getting the shock or the muscle tears from it.

If anyone's got a better analogy please share. Thats the best I got

IMO you can hit through hard hit balls better with a flexible racquet where as a stiff racquet causes your joints and arm to do the stretching and flexing to the load.

Man I love my Boris Becker DC London 93...

Did you switch from the Exo3 Tour?

Anton · Apr 22, 2013

I can see how a stiff racket may be bad for elbow joint, but I just don't see what shoulder has to do with racket stiffness.

eidolonshinobi · Apr 22, 2013

There are too many threads to count complaining about Tennis Elbow from stiff racquets. It markets well, but isn't good in the long run for those with nonfundamental strokes.

ollinger · Apr 22, 2013

Don't confuse comfort with arm safety. One can engineer some of the harshness out but a stiff racquet still creates torques on the wrist and elbow that a more flexible racquet doesn't.

Boricua · Apr 22, 2013

I used APD Cortex, Gt and 2013 model. Ironically the Cortex version was the only one that did not give me elbow problems. Bear in mind that I used full copoly mostly. I am switching to the flexible Prince 3 Exo Tour 16 x 18 strung with Black 5 Edge at 45 string tension

spinovic · Apr 22, 2013

dje31 said:
Head Instincts ( at least for IGs & Graphenes ) have fairly high RA ratings, but they hide it well. They feel almost pillow-y, very muted. Not sure how they're pulling that off, but they do.

HEAD has definitely figured something out. To suit my preferences anyway.

I haven't played with the Instinct, but I currently use the Extreme Pro 2.0 and can echo your feedback. Stiffness is 69, but it has that same muted, "softer" than expected feel. How a racquet feels is always difficult to describe, and its a subjective thing that can vary with each person, but the Extreme Pro 2.0 feels solid, without feeling stiff to me.

The Prestige Pro (stiffness of 66 I believe) doesn't feel drastically different. In fact, I thought it felt a little boardier and stiffer than the Extreme Pro 2.0. The Radical has some similarities in the "muted" response, but you can definitely feel the flexier frame. I love the feel on all the HEAD racquets I've played with.

ced · Apr 22, 2013

Crocodile said:
I've noticed in the last 6 months many of the manufacturers have increased the stiffnes of their racquets, of note Dunlop with there 200 series of racquets. Buying a Volkl with a stiffness of 74 (X7) would have been unheard of in the past by a brand which prides itself in producing soft feeling racquets. ... ... ... ... ...

The question is, has comfort technology improved to the point that a racquet with an RA of 68 and above be used with a soft multi be OK for arms and shoulders assuming that weight and balance characteristics are equal

If my experience for the last 7 weeks with the Volkl Organix X7 (295) is any indicator , then Volkl has succeeded in doing just that !! My preferred multi is PPA strung at 50/52.

SteveI · Apr 22, 2013

dje31 said:
Head Instincts ( at least for IGs & Graphenes ) have fairly high RA ratings, but they hide it well. They feel almost pillow-y, very muted. Not sure how they're pulling that off, but they do.

indeed sir.. I am playing the IG Instinct and they very much hide the 69 RA..and yes the "pillow-y" is right on. I am very impressed by that frame. One of the best all around frames I have ever played..and it has lots of room for mods if required.

SteveI · Apr 22, 2013

ollinger said:
Don't confuse comfort with arm safety. One can engineer some of the harshness out but a stiff racquet still creates torques on the wrist and elbow that a more flexible racquet doesn't.

I agree with this. I am not sure how Head has created such a solid line. The IG Instinct seems to have it all. Easy on my arm (mine) and I have not seem the frame twist on off center hits. The upper loop is firm and consistent. Head has created something special in my book with that frame.

SteveI · Apr 22, 2013

Anton said:
I can see how a stiff racket may be bad for elbow joint, but I just don't see what shoulder has to do with racket stiffness.

I think shoulder issues come more from bad form and too heavy (static or SW) a frame.

Anton · Apr 22, 2013

SteveI said:
I think shoulder issues come more from bad form and too heavy (static or SW) a frame.

That's how I see this too

Relinquis · Apr 22, 2013

No, It hasn't.

Crocodile said:
[..]

The question is, has comfort technology improved to the point that a racquet with an RA of 68 and above be used with a soft multi be OK for arms and shoulders assuming that weight and balance characteristics are equal

NE1for10is? · Apr 22, 2013

I have been wondering lately if there would ever be a class action suit against a racquet or string company that knowingly sells extremely stiff racquets that cause so many injuries.

dje31 · Apr 22, 2013

NE1for10is? said:
I have been wondering lately if there would ever be a class action suit against a racquet or string company that knowingly sells extremely stiff racquets that cause so many injuries.

It would only work in the US, as most other countries have "loser pays" rules against frivolous lawsuits. Further, the only party that wins in a class action lawsuit are the lawyers.

Gasolina · Apr 22, 2013

Could be the case. I remember when TW reviewed the Vcore Xi 98. The written review wasn't out yet. On TW's review thread, Jason mentioned it was quite comfortable. I asked him how that was since the racquet is pretty stiff. He said the racquet is stiff and he could feel it in his arm after the hitting session.

Racquets can mute out vibrations on a racquet but can't hide the fact that it is stiff, and you will feel the shock on your arm, eventually.

mikeespinmusic · Apr 22, 2013

Boricua said:
Did you switch from the Exo3 Tour?

No but I bought the becker based on traits similar to an 18 x 20 exo3 tour but with a midsize head. I felt at the time "whats the point of buying the same frame with dense a pattern?" Both comparable to each other so I went with it. I'm using Big hitter blue rough 17 at 44/41lbs on the becker with heaps of lead. Think of it like my mistress that I'm getting action off the side with.

. It favours flatter hitting and volleys but it doesn't have the super spin loop and hop you are chasing like the exo3 tour.

keithfival · Apr 22, 2013

Crocodile said:
The question is, has comfort technology improved to the point that a racquet with an RA of 68 and above be used with a soft multi be OK for arms and shoulders assuming that weight and balance characteristics are equal

They mask the stiffness with a plush impact feel but the stiffness is definitely still an issue. I've recently tried the 2012 PD and the 2013 Blade 16x19, both have a wonderful plush, solid feel on impact, and I still felt the stiffness within minutes of hitting with either one.

snoopy · Apr 23, 2013

My demo experience with the Youtek IG Instinct matches what many are saying. While hitting the racquet felt nice but afterwards my elbow and shoulder were throbbing. I almost never have inflammation in my arm from tennis.

If you weren't able to tolerate stiff racquets in the past don't be lulled by the new technologies into believing that you now can.

BreakPoint · Apr 23, 2013

Anton said:
I can see how a stiff racket may be bad for elbow joint, but I just don't see what shoulder has to do with racket stiffness.

The shock waves from hitting the ball with a stiff racquet can travel all the way up your arm to your shoulder.

Anton · Apr 23, 2013

BreakPoint said:
The shock waves from hitting the ball with a stiff racquet can travel all the way up your arm to your shoulder.

I don't buy "shockwaves" theory, it's the torque that does the damage by maxing our joint's range of rotation, no way is shoulder range getting maxed out by impacts.

Readers · Apr 23, 2013

Anton said:
I don't buy "shockwaves" theory, it's the torque that does the damage by maxing our joint's range of rotation, no way is shoulder range getting maxed out by impacts.

Totally agree, it's the impact shock that hurts you, not the vibration.

BreakPoint · Apr 23, 2013

Readers said:
Totally agree, it's the impact shock that hurts you, not the vibration.

I said shock, never said vibration.

sureshs · Apr 23, 2013

Anton said:
I don't buy "shockwaves" theory, it's the torque that does the damage by maxing our joint's range of rotation, no way is shoulder range getting maxed out by impacts.

Shockwaves from tennis rackets are proven science. Initial shock and the subsequent shockwaves create different kinds of problems. It also depends on the person's bone structure how sensitive he is to the shock waves.

When a ball impacts, there is one kind of shock, which is often obvious. But after that, shock waves (higher the RA, higher their frequency) travel from the strings to the hoop to the handle to the arm, and they can do a lot of harm without you even realizing it.

Anton · Apr 23, 2013

sureshs said:
Shockwaves from tennis rackets are proven science. Initial shock and the subsequent shockwaves create different kinds of problems. It also depends on the person's bone structure how sensitive he is to the shock waves.

When a ball impacts, there is one kind of shock, which is often obvious. But after that, shock waves (higher the RA, higher their frequency) travel from the strings to the hoop to the handle to the arm, and they can do a lot of harm without you even realizing it.

...And these frequencies travel through bone, tendons, muscles and two joints all the way up to the shoulder and damage it?

TroutSc · Apr 23, 2013

So donnay formula 100... Is it a stiff yet very arm friendly and safe choice or is it just a marketing claim?

Slitch · Apr 24, 2013

Well donnay rackets are, like angell, filled with foam. In theory the foam schould absorb vibrations, not shock.
The RA rating is flex number thereby indicating how much the racket flexes, or deforms on impact. Vibrations is a different animal and impacts the muscles and tendons in a different way. It could be considered as microscopic shocks.
Both create stress on your body. Everybody reacts different to each type of stress.

Crocodile · Apr 24, 2013

Thanks everybody, all your answers have been fantastic. I think this forum is very professional and helpful. For a long time my main racquets have been C10 pro , Bio & 4D 200's and really like the way these racquets play. Most recently I have been experimenting with the vo2 325 which is a much stiffer racquet but I've strung it at 50lbs with bi-phase and have had pretty good results. I am going to test out whether there will be any problems with my arm over a 7 day cycle for 3 months. I feel the silicon in the handle of tecnifibre racquets may prove OK. I will be interested to see how players who use the x7 wil go as well. cheers

dje31 · Apr 24, 2013

BTW, I've mentioned it before, but the Graphene Instinct Rev is RA59, and has the same muted, pillow-y feel as the other Instincts with RA69+...but it needs at least 1.5 oz, preferably tail-weighted. Then it's quite the gem.

mikeespinmusic · Apr 24, 2013

BreakPoint said:
I said shock, never said vibration.

I get what you're saying. For those who don't, think of the impact as the leverage fulcrum. Instead of it being in the flex of the racquet hoop and throat. Its now bending at the shoulder, wrist and elbow joint. The soreness is the stretching and tearing of tissues from accumulated impacts

mikeespinmusic · Apr 24, 2013

Anton said:
...And these frequencies travel through bone, tendons, muscles and two joints all the way up to the shoulder and damage it?

yes. More so forces than frequencies. Think of it like you're doing bicep curls and some one drops an extra massive amount of weight on your hands on top of what you're already weilding. Whats going to happen? Your muscles try to stabilize, they may even tear and then shut down and the your arms collapse down.

When it comes to ball impact with a stiff racquet, its like that only lots of little tears from the hitting session (especially from hard hits) which are eventually accumulated which creates the arm soreness and fatigue.

Here's a video from Tom Avery (a coach) he goes into it a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaZtxzBu0Ak

Anton · Apr 28, 2013

mikeespinmusic said:
yes. More so forces than frequencies. Think of it like you're doing bicep curls and some one drops an extra massive amount of weight on your hands on top of what you're already weilding. Whats going to happen? Your muscles try to stabilize, they may even tear and then shut down and the your arms collapse down.

When it comes to ball impact with a stiff racquet, its like that only lots of little tears from the hitting session (especially from hard hits) which are eventually accumulated which creates the arm soreness and fatigue.

Here's a video from Tom Avery (a coach) he goes into it a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaZtxzBu0Ak

Right, you are talking about torque from impact not racket vibrations (waves)

mikeespinmusic · Apr 28, 2013

Anton said:
Right, you are talking about torque from impact not racket vibrations (waves)

Don't get me wrong, vibrations can hurt too if not dampened or filtered right.

syke · Apr 28, 2013

The Wilson 99S did a great job masking the vibrations with it's plush feel during play.
But I could really feel my elbow acting up after a long hit.

With the softer Pacific X Force, I get zero arm issues.

Ronaldo · Apr 28, 2013

Pity Dunlop does not re-introduce those Revelation series racquets just to remind these companies with stiff, cushioned response tweeners know what a real flexible, damped racquet feels like. Feels like wood used to.

BreakPoint · Apr 29, 2013

Anton said:
Right, you are talking about torque from impact not racket vibrations (waves)

The torque from impact results in shock. Shock is transmitted in a wave(s).

Is comfort technology catching up with stiffness

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