Tennis is about Match Ups As Opposed To Ratings

OrangePower said:

And anyway, cumquats are good but not as yummy as loquats.

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Aurellian said:

No, my point is if someone of LOWER technical skill can prevail over someone with Higher technical skill if they have certain rare attributes at the club level?

Like if a dude who thinks well, hits hard, and moves fast can beat a player of greater skill.

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J_R_B said:

Yes, of course this can happen, but since ratings are results-driven, the player with better strokes is NOT higher rated since he can't beat players who are supposed lower rated, which is what you said when you started this stupid-fest. So, basically what you did is get caught making a ridiculously stupid statement, so you changed it to something everyone would consider reasonable, and then claimed that's what you were saying all along. Good job, but it certainly doesn't take away from the stupid of your original argument, which you defended vigorously for a long time in this thread.

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gameboy said:

I don't know why, but I guess I just want to tell myself that this entire thread wasn't just a colossal waste of time, so here it goes...

This is precisely why USTA got rid of the judgmental ratings handed out by club pros. Just because some person has beautiful strokes, it does not mean that those beautiful strokes won't break down at the first hint of pressure. And someone with strokes that hurt to even look at still can have great success relying on consistency and movement.

All it matter is whether or not (and how often) you win or lose the point. Exactly how you do it and how good you look while doing it is no concern of USTA.

If someone has a "4.5 serve" and "2.5 groundies" does not automatically mean that person is a 3.0. It only matters what you do with it and who you play competitive against. If those strokes keep you in games against 4.0's, then you are a 4.0. If 3.5 with better strokes can beat you down, you may only be a 3.0.

Style matchups don't matter. Only the results matter.

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Aurellian said:

But if you are saying that certain styles don't match up poorly against other styles I must politely disagree.

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gameboy said:

Cocaine is helluva drug...

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Cindysphinx said:

What a mosh pit.

Well, I guess I would say this about what I will call "Weaker Player With A Weapon Against Technically Superior Player" (WPWAWATSP) TM.

This really isn't that rare. Say you had a 3.0 player who had a Big Serve against a 4.5 player.

Sure, the Big Server would win points with his serve. But the problem is that the 4.5 player should be able to handle the serve *and* the 4.5 player should be able to do things to prevent the 3.0 player from taking advantage of the Big Serve.

An example. If pro players stand back by the fence to return Isner's serve or just float it back, he might counter this with S&V. The 3.0 player could never do that because 3.0 players typically do not S&V well. The 4.5 should have various tools in the bag that the 3.0 is not used to seeing and should therefore win.

Now, if you want to talk probability, we can make it easy. Imagine that a 3.0C singles specialist plays a 4.0 C singles specialist in singles. Show of hands: Who would bet money on the 3.0?

Didn't think so.

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Aurellian said:

I would discourage anyone from using illegal narcotics. Drugs are bad and don't do anything good for you or your loved ones.

If you have a substance abuse problem you can contact me and I will try to arrange a treatment program for you based upon counseling and prayer.

Have a blessed day.

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Cindysphinx said:

What a mosh pit.

Well, I guess I would say this about what I will call "Weaker Player With A Weapon Against Technically Superior Player" (WPWAWATSP) TM.

This really isn't that rare. Say you had a 3.0 player who had a Big Serve against a 4.5 player.

Sure, the Big Server would win points with his serve. But the problem is that the 4.5 player should be able to handle the serve *and* the 4.5 player should be able to do things to prevent the 3.0 player from taking advantage of the Big Serve.

An example. If pro players stand back by the fence to return Isner's serve or just float it back, he might counter this with S&V. The 3.0 player could never do that because 3.0 players typically do not S&V well. The 4.5 should have various tools in the bag that the 3.0 is not used to seeing and should therefore win.

Now, if you want to talk probability, we can make it easy. Imagine that a 3.0C singles specialist plays a 4.0 C singles specialist in singles. Show of hands: Who would bet money on the 3.0?

Didn't think so.

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souledge said:

It's a TV show reference.

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Aurellian said:

I would discourage anyone from using illegal narcotics. Drugs are bad and don't do anything good for you or your loved ones.

If you have a substance abuse problem you can contact me and I will try to arrange a treatment program for you based upon counseling and prayer.

Have a blessed day.

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josofo said:

why is everyone assuming that he is not beating 4.0s. seems just as likely that he is underrating himself. for example he said he was serving 50 percent on 105 mph first serve, i dont really know how a 3.0 could do that and remain a 3.0 that long.

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Arafel said:

First, there is no way a rec player can know that they are hitting 105 mph serves 50 percent of the time and getting them in. What, are they carrying radar gun to their matches and setting it up (and making sure it's set up properly)?

In my experience, most players seriously overestimate the speed of their serve.

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Arafel said:

In my experience, most players seriously overestimate the speed of their serve.

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josofo said:

i figured 105 is about average for an average joe who says he serves fast.

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josofo said:

i figured 105 is about average for an average joe who says he serves fast.

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gameboy said:

HA!!! In many years of playing in USTA 3.5, I have yet to see a single player who had average serves that fast. I once had a teammate who could crank it over 100mph, but he hardly ever hit that during a match (because it was pretty wild).

I don't even see that in 4.0 play (start seeing it in 4.5).

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josofo said:

i figured 105 is about average for an average joe who says he serves fast.

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Aurellian said:

That kid I played from the Middle West who you offered to hit with. he's very good: 6'2 ish, good strength, moves better than most of the players I have seen around, and has a crazy left serve.

I still have not played with you so I can't say who is better, but he could play 4.5 on a good day. He was off when I played him...I won't take credit where non was deserved... he is superior tennis player to me but I prevailed in a tie breaker.

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Velvet Ga el said:

Second, the Talk Tennis player you played is not a 4.5, and again, his playing results back that up (to be fair, he's likely much better than I am, so this shouldn't be construed as a shot at him; rather I want a discussion based in reality rather than subjective assessment). I couldn't find any league results for him, but he does have five tournament results in the last year. In 4.0 singles, he's 1-5. In 4.0 doubles, he's 3-2. In 4.5 singles, he's 0-2 (with three bagels in four sets). In Open singles, he's 0-1 (with one game won in two sets), and in Open doubles, he's 0-1 (with one game won in two sets). Nothing about those results say 4.5 singles player, though his 4.0 singles results show he's probably a mid-level 4.0 singles player (he rarely gets blown out and has lost some very competitive matches, so he might also be a higher than average 4.0).

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Velvet Ga el said:

I thought I'd revisit this because I have now played the TTer in question and because both him and I represent cases where the USTA rating, even when match result-based, doesn't necessarily get it right.

We're both relative newbies to the sport (him 3 1/2 years, but only recently taking lessons from a local pro on modern strokes, me 2 years and a month) who have been blessed with big serves. And I think because of that our USTA ratings lag a bit, to the point that we're probably both a half-point above where we're rated (I'm 14-2 this year in 4.0 singles, with losses to the top 2 guys in my district, both of whom swing up to 4.5 singles; despite me "winning" yesterday, the TTer was a much tougher matchup than either of those guys). He has a huge serve, and being a lefty, it makes it that much worse; he's also blessed with a heavy forehand and a solid two-handed backhand. With a bit more consistency from the baseline and some work on the transition footwork in the volley game, he'll be a bear to deal with at 4.5 as well.

Our match was basically a serve fest. I won 7-6 (11-9) and I'd say because of our serves, we might have had fifteen or so good rallies in the entire set. He got an early break to go up 5-3, I held and broke back to get to 5-5, and then we both held to 6-6. I hit a backhand return "winner" that caught the back edge of the baseline for the win. I get the sense that he served much better than the first few games he played you (there were a few double faults, but rarely two in one game and certainly not enough to lose a service game outright because of them), but he had difficulty returning my serve as well.

It would be interesting to see a match between the TTer and me when both of our serves are off; he's more solid off his backhand than I am, but I get to the net a bit better and play a bit more of an all court game. And if one of us is off with his serve, it'll be a blowout in favor of the other player. Glad I got to him at 20 and not 25 because he'll be impossible by that age.

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dizzlmcwizzl said:

This .... I can serve that fast. I often hear my serve is impressive. However, in competition I rarely hit it my hardest in favor of consistency, spin and placement.

There is no way I would say I (or most I regularly play with) serve it at an average clip of 100 mph. The only guy that I know who does regularly hit serves that hard is a former division I player that is awesome ..... Average hard servers are in the 90-95 MPH range at best.

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gameboy said:

You would be the only 3.5 (hell even a 4.0) with that serve in the entire country...

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shazbot said:

Cool story. So OP goes from saying he is a 3.0, to you saying he would be a tough opponent for a 4.5.

I'm all for a good troll, but this is lame now. Yawn

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OrangePower said:

Only in TT-land.

I think I've probably said this 20 times in various posts, so forgive me for repeating it yet again...

105mph is much faster than people realize. We sometimes bring a radar gun out to our 4.5 team practice. More than half the guys struggle to break 100mph at all, let alone at 50% success rate. There are probably only 1 or 2 guys (out of about 20) that can serve 105mph @ 50% rate.

So at levels lower than 4.5, I would be very skeptical of such claims. Not impossible of course, but highly unlikely.

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shazbot said:

Cool story. So OP goes from saying he is a 3.0, to you saying he would be a tough opponent for a 4.5.

I'm all for a good troll, but this is lame now. Yawn

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josofo said:

why is everyone assuming that he is not beating 4.0s. seems just as likely that he is underrating himself. for example he said he was serving 50 percent on 105 mph first serve, i dont really know how a 3.0 could do that and remain a 3.0 that long.

in my local league the 3.0 are rather bad however some of the 4.0s aren't that great and are just doubles players. for example the better 3.5 would be at least even money vs 6-8 of the doubles only 4.0 players. using me as an example i just lost a 3.5 match to a pretty solid 3.5.

at 4.0 one team has 11 players. they have 1 guy who beat me 6-1 6-0 both times he played me. one guy who beat me 6-1 7-6 and another guy i hear is rather solid. besides that id probably beat everyone in singles and be live in doubles. on the other team the "seasoned" doubles players are all a little better so id say about 4 guys are significantly better doubles players than me. (though a couple of them have a bit of a gut so maybe i would be live in singles) and the other 5 guys i am either a bit of a favorite vs or a lock to beat in singles. maybe 2 of them are slightly better doubles players than me.

now i am a 3.5 who lost a match 6-0 6-0 at 3.5 at regional championships. so you can say well you must have a bit of a weak 4.0 league (which we do) but still it demonstrates a lot of the 3.5 vs 4.0 stuff you are talking about. however like i said i have not really seen any talent in the 3.0 league.

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Velvet Ga el said:

I thought I'd revisit this because I have now played the TTer in question and because both him and I represent cases where the USTA rating, even when match result-based, doesn't necessarily get it right.

We're both relative newbies to the sport (him 3 1/2 years, but only recently taking lessons from a local pro on modern strokes, me 2 years and a month) who have been blessed with big serves. And I think because of that our USTA ratings lag a bit, to the point that we're probably both a half-point above where we're rated (I'm 14-2 this year in 4.0 singles, with losses to the top 2 guys in my district, both of whom swing up to 4.5 singles; despite me "winning" yesterday, the TTer was a much tougher matchup than either of those guys). He has a huge serve, and being a lefty, it makes it that much worse; he's also blessed with a heavy forehand and a solid two-handed backhand. With a bit more consistency from the baseline and some work on the transition footwork in the volley game, he'll be a bear to deal with at 4.5 as well.

Our match was basically a serve fest. I won 7-6 (11-9) and I'd say because of our serves, we might have had fifteen or so good rallies in the entire set. He got an early break to go up 5-3, I held and broke back to get to 5-5, and then we both held to 6-6. I hit a backhand return "winner" that caught the back edge of the baseline for the win. I get the sense that he served much better than the first few games he played you (there were a few double faults, but rarely two in one game and certainly not enough to lose a service game outright because of them), but he had difficulty returning my serve as well.

It would be interesting to see a match between the TTer and me when both of our serves are off; he's more solid off his backhand than I am, but I get to the net a bit better and play a bit more of an all court game. And if one of us is off with his serve, it'll be a blowout in favor of the other player. Glad I got to him at 20 and not 25 because he'll be impossible by that age.

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Aurellian said:

One thing I will say and have said all along: I am not a good tennis player but my style (hitting harder than everybody I have faced save the pros, a "hot damn" serve, and movement upon desire) allow me to beat players of much more greater experience than myself.

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Velvet Ga el said:

Maybe I wasn't clear in my post, but I wasn't trying to say anything about the OP or his game. I'm talking about Talk Tennis user "Kahlz," which is who I played. That kid has a big serve and though he's rated 4.0, I think by now with his lessons he's a bubble 4.5 player. Once he gets a bit more consistent, he'll be a handful at the 4.5 level.

As for OP, I have trouble believing he's anything more than a mid 3.5. However, he does move well, and I can see him running down enough balls to give a low 4.0 some trouble if the 4.0 was having a bad day. If the 4.0 was built around a serve and not much else, I can also see OP giving him some difficulty before ultimately losing.

And quite frankly, I though we have already established that OP self-rated too low at 3.0; you pull up his USTA results and you can see that he should be rated a 3.5.

I'm not sure where the "troll" is unless I was unclear in my original post and you thought I had played the OP.

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souledge said:

Not the majority of the time, maybe about 10%?

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Aurellian said:

25-30% is likely more accurate. As I said before, not many dudes around here benching 280 so the players don't see the hard flat James Blake style ball. It's not that its wow or anything, but it's just not seen too often.

the serve is fast but not that fast, it's all muscle, no lower body, so some players who know how to serve properly can do so faster. I have seen people serve as fast as I do but never strike the ball as violently as i do at the club level. My pro, who is a former touring pro, says the only other guy (I assume client) who hits the ball as hard as I do was former NFL strong safety.


I think that players like me have to change styles because as we get older we can't keep this type of game up. It's just not sustainable. Also, flat hitters need the speed of their legs to get into proper position because our margin of error with our shots is so small. That's why Blake can flash at times but cant do it consistently while Haas is still puttin it down day in and day out.

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souledge said:

So you're saying that at a full NTRP Computer rated difference of 1.0 point, because of a style difference that favors the 3.0, the 3.0 will win 25%-30% of the time when competing with a 4.0? (Say the 3.0 is 2.75 and the 4.0 is 3.75 for example.)

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souledge said:

So you're saying that at a full NTRP Computer rated difference of 1.0 point, because of a style difference that favors the 3.0, the 3.0 will win 25%-30% of the time when competing with a 4.0? (Say the 3.0 is 2.75 and the 4.0 is 3.75 for example.)

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