Question for Will Hamilton (& others who promote laid back wrist on forehand contact)

pushing_wins · Jun 14, 2013

boramiNYC said:
^^^
since 2hbh uses both hands like golf the comparison would be closer. most dominant 2hbh stance is the closed and the front foot pointing the sideway of the target. there is similarity imo. all arm swinging motions uses the many common biomechanical principles.

that point has been raised many many times. i do realize that.

forehand backhand open or closed stance. the whip will cannot crack unless there is an anchor to hold the handle back which is the strong left side.

we are not sure about the wrist, leaning back, stepping in, push pull, closed stance or open stance, using your legs, early or late racket back etc etc.

so what can we say conculsively are necessary conditions of a open level fh?

5263 · Jun 14, 2013

pushing_wins said:
open stance or closed stance ...the left leg has to be firm and straight

this is necessary for the head to stay behind the shot

sorry don't agree. I don't even have to have the left foot on the ground or
straight to keep my head behind the ball.
Don't really want to get caught up in you saying this and me countering, so
let just say you see some strong similarities, ok?
I'm less convinced, but maybe that is my lack of golf experience.

pushing_wins · Jun 14, 2013

5263 said:
sorry don't agree. I don't even have to have the left foot on the ground or
straight to keep my head behind the ball.
Don't really want to get caught up in you saying this and me countering, so
let just say you see some strong similarities, ok?
I'm less convinced, but maybe that is my lack of golf experience.

its not about golf. could you give it some serious thought? its physics.

the right side is coming around really fast, the left side has to brace (to pull the whip back) for the racquet to release properly. if the right side collapses, all the energy from the legs and rotation would be wasted.

each link in the chain has to brace of stop before the subsequent link is released.

rkelley · Jun 14, 2013

pushing_wins said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RcxYFBOehU#t=28s

feds head is turning to the his right thru contact

His head turns to track the ball, but it's stationary at contact, focused on the contact point.

pushing_wins said:
when he starts his racquet forward all his weight has already completely shifted to his left foot

I'm not seeing that.

pushing_wins said:
open stance or closed stance ...the left leg has to be firm and straight

this is necessary for the head to stay behind the shot

5263 said:
sorry don't agree. I don't even have to have the left foot on the ground or straight to keep my head behind the ball.

I agree with 5263. You see pros hit fhs all the time with their left foot in the air. I do it too, usually when I don't get quite set-up the way I needed to. I can still generate good rhs. When I can what I want to do is plant my right foot, not my left (right handed) on my fh. I think about getting that back/outside foot behind the ball.

This isn't to say you can't or shouldn't hit off the front foot. But I don't see that it's required from how pros play or in my own playing.

pushing_wins · Jun 15, 2013

rkelley said:
His head turns to track the ball, but it's stationary at contact, focused on the contact point.

I'm not seeing that.

I agree with 5263. You see pros hit fhs all the time with their left foot in the air. I do it too, usually when I don't get quite set-up the way I needed to. I can still generate good rhs. When I can what I want to do is plant my right foot, not my left (right handed) on my fh. I think about getting that back/outside foot behind the ball.

This isn't to say you can't or shouldn't hit off the front foot. But I don't see that it's required from how pros play or in my own playing.

Do you track the ball by swing your head around? Or do you track it with your eyes?

rkelley · Jun 15, 2013

pushing_wins said:
Do you track the ball by swing your head around? Or do you track it with your eyes?

Well, we weren't talking about what I do, but what Federer was doing in the video. I try to do what he does.

So what do I think that is? Fair question. I (try to) watch the ball off my opponent's racquet all the way to the contact point. I can't do this without moving my head, and neither can Fed apparently. At contact you always see pictures of him with his head to the side looking right at the contact point. He's obviously turned his head by that point.

The thing I don't see him do, however, is continuously move his head to follow the ball right up to contact. He is the master of the quiet, still head at contact. What I do to achieve that quiet, still head - and what I think Fed (and other pros) are doing - is that as the ball nears the contact point I take my focus off the ball and focus on the contact point, or really my best estimation of where that will be. This point isn't moving, and now neither is my head. I can still see the ball, and I continue to update my estimation of where the contact point will be based on what I see the ball do, but I'm focused on that stationary contact point for that last bit of the ball's flight, not the moving ball.

When I do this it works great. I always hit better.

pushing_wins · Jun 15, 2013

rkelley said:
Well, we weren't talking about what I do, but what Federer was doing in the video. I try to do what he does.

So what do I think that is? Fair question. I (try to) watch the ball off my opponent's racquet all the way to the contact point. I can't do this without moving my head, and neither can Fed apparently. At contact you always see pictures of him with his head to the side looking right at the contact point. He's obviously turned his head by that point.

The thing I don't see him do, however, is continuously move his head to follow the ball right up to contact. He is the master of the quiet, still head at contact. What I do to achieve that quiet, still head - and what I think Fed (and other pros) are doing - is that as the ball nears the contact point I take my focus off the ball and focus on the contact point, or really my best estimation of where that will be. This point isn't moving, and now neither is my head. I can still see the ball, and I continue to update my estimation of where the contact point will be based on what I see the ball do, but I'm focused on that stationary contact point for that last bit of the ball's flight, not the moving ball.

When I do this it works great. I always hit better.

i m not sure. lets move on

when should you make contact with the ball? at the end of rotation? beginning? or as you rotate your body?

pushing_wins · Jun 15, 2013

Anton said:
Yep that full rotation before contact has been a big focus for me lately

so before, you were rotating as you hit the ball?

rkelley · Jun 15, 2013

pushing_wins said:
i m not sure. lets move on

when should you make contact with the ball? at the end of rotation? beginning? or as you rotate your body?

Rotation of the body you mean? You rotate your body (i.e. core) first to drive your hand out in front and load up energy in your arm and wrist. I just love this video of a Fed fh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk

It shows how he keeps his head so still, racquet pointing to the side in the ptd position, then he rotates his body which drives his hand (and butt of the racquet) out front, stores up all of that energy in his wrist and forearm, and then the racquet just whips into and over the ball with tons of pace and spin.

Anton · Jun 16, 2013

pushing_wins said:
so before, you were rotating as you hit the ball?

Yea, I was rotating and hitting at the same time.

But now I simply concentrate on 1. pushing forward with stoke side foot, 2. rotating torso/shoulders and 3. just let racket fly out from behind all that without trying to muscle it.

It feels really light and easy once you get the timings right, but you still get very solid spin/pace.

newpball · Jun 16, 2013

rkelley said:
Rotation of the body you mean? You rotate your body (i.e. core) first to drive your hand out in front and load up energy in your arm and wrist. I just love this video of a Fed fh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk

It shows how he keeps his head so still, racquet pointing to the side in the ptd position, then he rotates his body which drives his hand (and butt of the racquet) out front, stores up all of that energy in his wrist and forearm, and then the racquet just whips into and over the ball with tons of pace and spin.

Yes this is great.....,

but,

watch how far away from the body he actually hits the ball!

What I see on the court a lot is people trying this (or something that looks like it) and then hitting much to close to the body with a result that they are actually using the wrist and that is a fast way towards a TE.

pushing_wins · Jun 16, 2013

Anton said:
Yea, I was rotating and hitting at the same time.

But now I simply concentrate on 1. pushing forward with stoke side foot, 2. rotating torso/shoulders and 3. just let racket fly out from behind all that without trying to muscle it.

It feels really light and easy once you get the timings right, but you still get very solid spin/pace.

i have the same problem. so difficult to change since i have hit a million balls the wrong way.

toly · Jun 17, 2013

The most powerful stroke in tennis is a serve. Next picture demonstrates Stosur actions during arm pronation phase.

The arm pronation rotates the racquet more than 180°. The arm extension rotates more 30°. The body and even left arm are doing virtually nothing. IMO a server must take care mostly about arm parts actions. Using the body is important as the frame to direct the arm into proper arm pronation phase and provide some starting relatively slow acceleration. The same should be true in case of FH, otherwise you just waste a lot of energy with very low efficiency.

pushing_wins · Jun 18, 2013

toly said:
The most powerful stroke in tennis is a serve. Next picture demonstrates Stosur actions during arm pronation phase.

The arm pronation rotates the racquet more than 180°. The arm extension rotates more 30°. The body and even left arm are doing virtually nothing. IMO a server must take care mostly about arm parts actions. Using the body is important as the frame to direct the arm into proper arm pronation phase and provide some starting relatively slow acceleration. The same should be true in case of FH, otherwise you just waste a lot of energy with very low efficiency.

so using your body is over rated and is just a myth?

i have heard players serve at over 100 mph from a kneeling down position, so it all arm.

sureshs · Jun 18, 2013

Isn't there a famous table which breaks down which parts of the kinetic chain contribute how much to the serve?

Chas Tennis · Jun 18, 2013

There are two very distinct issues:

1) During the entire service motion certain muscle or joint motions have contributed the most power, energy, muscle stretching, .....??, etc., to the serve? This is usually poorly described and I have never seen a clear discussion with percentages.

2) For the final racket head speed - which is near 0 after the leg thrust - some joints can be seen in high speed video. These joint motions are largely driven by stretched muscles from the previous phases of the serve. For final racket head speed at impact the percentages that are often quoted are those from the Elliott paper and possibly others. These discussions are much clearer to follow - stretched muscles shorten very rapidly and produce very high racket head speeds. There are probably several other joint motions also contributing using non-stretch muscle shortening.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/

This paper lists wrist flexion as contributing 30% to final racket head speed, right behind internal shoulder rotation at 40%. I believe that the wrist flexion is a by-product of ISR and other body motions and is probably not occurring because of force produced by shortening of muscles that flex the wrist. But I don't understand what is going on with "wrist flexion" and have not seen it explained.

My simplified view is that large, strong but slow muscles and joint movements (such as leg thrust) stretch smaller but faster muscles used for the final racket head speed.

pushing_wins · Jun 18, 2013

Chas Tennis said:
There are two very distinct issues:

1) During the entire service motion certain muscle or joint motions have contributed the most power, energy, muscle stretching, .....??, etc., to the serve? This is usually poorly described and I have never seen a clear discussion with percentages.

2) For the final racket head speed - which is near 0 after the leg thrust - some joints can be seen in high speed video. These joint motions are largely driven by stretched muscles from the previous phases of the serve. For final racket head speed at impact the percentages that are often quoted are those from the Elliott paper and possibly others. These discussions are much clearer to follow - stretched muscles shorten very rapidly and produce very high racket head speeds. There are probably several other joint motions also contributing using non-stretch muscle shortening.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/

This paper lists wrist flexion as contributing 30% to final racket head speed, right behind internal shoulder rotation at 40%. I believe that the wrist flexion is a by-product of ISR and other body motions and is probably not occurring because of force produced by shortening of muscles that flex the wrist. But I don't understand what is going on with "wrist flexion" and have not seen it explained.

My simplified view is that large, strong but slow muscles and joint movements (such as leg thrust) stretch smaller but faster muscles used for the final racket head speed.

so the conventional idea or visualisation of using your body to hit the ball is entirely wrong. as you contact the ball, the only moving part should be the wrist.

Chas Tennis · Jun 18, 2013

pushing_wins said:
so the conventional idea or visualisation of using your body to hit the ball is entirely wrong. as you contact the ball, the only moving part should be the wrist.

You can see where the racket head speed comes from. Stop action on the last few frames before contact. Compare the forward wrist movement to the forward racket head movement which is produced by internal shoulder rotation rotating the entire arm.
https://vimeo.com/65434652

The other serve videos, especially those that mention 'internal shoulder rotation' in the descriptions, show the same thing.
https://vimeo.com/user6237669

Viewed from the side, by eye or with standard video, it looks like a forward arm swing but it's really very rapid axial arm rotation.

B. Elliott & others bimechanical research for tennis.

Anton · Jun 18, 2013

pushing_wins said:
so the conventional idea or visualisation of using your body to hit the ball is entirely wrong. as you contact the ball, the only moving part should be the wrist.

The part moving fastest at the point of impact is the forearm/wrist, because at that moment racket is coming around.

But before that racket comes around, legs torso and shoulders provide the tension build up that launches the racket, not entirely unlike what happens during the strokes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvrFuCEJPJQ

pushing_wins · Jun 18, 2013

Chas Tennis said:
You can see where the racket head speed comes from. Stop action on the last few frames before contact. Compare the forward wrist movement to the forward racket head movement which is produced by internal shoulder rotation rotating the entire arm.
https://vimeo.com/65434652

The other serve videos, especially those that mention 'internal shoulder rotation' in the descriptions, show the same thing.
https://vimeo.com/user6237669

Viewed from the side, by eye or with standard video, it looks like a forward arm swing but it's really very rapid axial arm rotation.

B. Elliott & others bimechanical research for tennis.

could you elaborate? do you mean pronation?

pushing_wins · Jun 18, 2013

Anton said:
The part moving fastest at the point of impact is the forearm/wrist, because at that moment racket is coming around.

But before that racket comes around, legs torso and shoulders provide the tension build up that launches the racket, not entirely unlike what happens during the strokes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvrFuCEJPJQ

conventional teaching - use your legs, load and explode etc. so you see a lot of low to intermediate level players rotating thru the contact zone which is very inefficient stroke mechanics. spinning around and around with the whip in your hand without ever cracking it.

so....i feel its just as important to focus on how to stop the body from rotating. thus releasing the stored energy efficiently to the arm, racket and to the ball.

since the core and legs are much stronger than the arms and wrist...this is not easy to do. the core and legs end up crowding out the effect of the arms and wrist which breaks down the kinetic chain.

Chas Tennis · Jun 18, 2013

Pronation is a term badly misused in tennis discussions of the serve. (Its misuse preceded the Elliott research publications on internal shoulder rotation.)

Pronation involves only axial rotation of the forearm by a joint at the elbow (radioulnar joint). It is driven by small muscles in the forearm.

Internal shoulder rotation involves rotation of the upper arm bone (humerus) at the shoulder joint. ISR is driven by large muscles such as the lat and pec, the largest muscles attached to the arm by far, and the ones used for a pull up.

When the arm is straight both pronation and ISR both cause the forearm & wrist to rotate in the same direction.

To distinguish one from the other when the arm is straight watch to see if the bones of the elbow axially rotate. If they do, that much of the forearm rotation is ISR. Pronation can also add to this rotation.

This dated FYB video describes pronation correctly as a forearm movement. But the part played by ISR on the serve is obscured.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1C6V_3s4nA

I keep hoping for an update...................

CharlieFedererer pretty much favors the current "pronation' usage because he believes that it is so ingrained that it can't be changed without having tennis players learn something new....

pushing_wins · Jun 18, 2013

Chas Tennis said:
Pronation is a term badly misused in tennis discussions of the serve. (Its misuse preceded the Elliott research publications on internal shoulder rotation.)

Pronation involves only axial rotation at the elbow (I'll look up the proper joint name) of the forearm. It is driven by small muscles in the forearm.

Internal shoulder rotation involves rotation of the upper arm bone (humerus) at the shoulder joint. ISR is driven by large muscles such as the lat and pec, the largest muscles attached to the arm by far, and the ones used for a pull up.

When the arm is straight both pronation and ISR both cause the forearm & wrist to rotate in the same direction.

To distinguish one from the other when the arm is straight watch to see if the bones of the elbow axially rotate. If they do, that much of the forearm rotation is ISR. Pronation can also add to this rotation.

This dated FYB video describes pronation correctly as a forearm movement. But the part played by ISR on the serve is obscured.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1C6V_3s4nA

I keep hoping for an update...................

CharlieFedererer pretty much favors the current "pronation' usage because it is so ingrained that it can't be changed without having tennis players learn something new....

in other words, turning a door knob counter clockwise?

Anton · Jun 19, 2013

pushing_wins said:
conventional teaching - use your legs, load and explode etc. so you see a lot of low to intermediate level players rotating thru the contact zone which is very inefficient stroke mechanics. spinning around and around with the whip in your hand without ever cracking it.

so....i feel its just as important to focus on how to stop the body from rotating. thus releasing the stored energy efficiently to the arm, racket and to the ball.

?

your body does not need to be stopped, it stops all by itself when it reaches maximum rotation range.

pushing_wins · Jun 19, 2013

Anton said:
?

your body does not need to be stopped, it stops all by itself when it reaches maximum rotation range.

i see a lot of intermediate players rotating their body as they are hitting the ball. maybe its due to their lack of flexibility, they can hold the maximum rotation position.

rkelley · Jun 19, 2013

pushing_wins said:
i see a lot of intermediate players rotating their body as they are hitting the ball. maybe its due to their lack of flexibility, they can hold the maximum rotation position.

I think it's more likely due to them not doing it right, or at least optimally. There's some timing involved. I've personally found it really easy to wait too long before you start the swing and then kind of sweep through the contact zone instead of turning, getting the feeling of loading up, and then letting the racquet whip through the contact zone.

pushing_wins · Jun 19, 2013

rkelley said:
I think it's more likely due to them not doing it right, or at least optimally. There's some timing involved. I've personally found it really easy to wait too long before you start the swing and then kind of sweep through the contact zone instead of turning, getting the feeling of loading up, and then letting the racquet whip through the contact zone.

the harder you load the more flexible you have to be

pushing_wins · Jun 19, 2013

guys, whats your take on the backswing? inverted or not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF890aX6zpo

interesting

pushing_wins · Jun 20, 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxUPDHegz98

across?! do not go across!

rkelley · Jun 21, 2013

pushing_wins said:
guys, whats your take on the backswing? inverted or not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF890aX6zpo

interesting

I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. There are many important differences between Sharapova and Djokovic's forehand. The difference noted in the video, in my mind, is a result of other, more significant issues.

Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0uCQBiH2Ko

It's long, but it's worth your time.

pushing_wins said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxUPDHegz98

across?! do not go across!

On the Oscar video:

- Yes, pull across the ball, but you have to have done some other things first to get to that point.

- Don't sweat the side spin for now. As you get better at this the side spin gets into the shot and it's one of the aspects of a modern fh that messes with your opponents, but I wouldn't worry about it for now.

- Do not try to hit off center. Just hit in the center of the racquet. For most of us that's hard enough.

- Especially do not try to roll your racquet over the ball. The ball and racquet are in contact for about 5 ms. If you can time a rolling motion of the racquet in a 5 ms window then you're from a different planet. Seriously, there's no way to consciously do this. If you want topspin, the racquet has to be going up at contact. In the video at around 3:50, see how the student hits the ball - do that. His racquet makes an upward path that stays in a plane before and through contact. No rolling or carving.

sureshs · Jun 21, 2013

Re: pulling across, I was watching Hampton-Woz just before leaving home now, and Jamie hit one DTL backhand winner with the follow through extending straight ahead and then coming across just to her right hip, and then a cross court backhand winner with the follow through straight towards the target and then up, and then not even coming across. As Peter Burwash said in Tennis mag a few months ago, this swinging scross deliberately is not a good idea for rec players. It should happen naturally when the player swings very fast and rotates his upper body, just like jumping up on the serve should happen naturally only if the whole kinetic chain supports it. I think it should be considered an "advanced" concept and not a basic requirement.

pushing_wins · Jun 21, 2013

rkelley said:
I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. There are many important differences between Sharapova and Djokovic's forehand. The difference noted in the video, in my mind, is a result of other, more significant issues.

Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0uCQBiH2Ko

It's long, but it's worth your time.

On the Oscar video:

- Yes, pull across the ball, but you have to have done some other things first to get to that point.

- Don't sweat the side spin for now. As you get better at this the side spin gets into the shot and it's one of the aspects of a modern fh that messes with your opponents, but I wouldn't worry about it for now.

- Do not try to hit off center. Just hit in the center of the racquet. For most of us that's hard enough.

- Especially do not try to roll your racquet over the ball. The ball and racquet are in contact for about 5 ms. If you can time a rolling motion of the racquet in a 5 ms window then you're from a different planet. Seriously, there's no way to consciously do this. If you want topspin, the racquet has to be going up at contact. In the video at around 3:50, see how the student hits the ball - do that. His racquet makes an upward path that stays in a plane before and through contact. No rolling or carving.

i didnt watch it, is he stealing ideas from TT?

you dont pull across..what ntrp are u?

rkelley · Jun 21, 2013

pushing_wins said:
i didnt watch it, is he stealing ideas from TT?

you dont pull across..what ntrp are u?

Yes, I pull across. I wouldn't recommend it (as you bolded) unless I did it.

pushing_wins · Jun 21, 2013

rkelley said:
Yes, I pull across. I wouldn't recommend it (as you bolded) unless I did it.

alrite. and i will also forget about the side spin for now.

so are you a decent player?

rkelley · Jun 21, 2013

pushing_wins said:
alrite. and i will also forget about the side spin for now.

so are you a decent player?

I don't totally suck, but watch the pros and learn from some of these coaches who have put their stuff on youtube.

Regarding the side spin, I wouldn’t say forget it. I would say don’t worry about it right now if you’re just learning a modern fh. Just focus on the basics first. The side spin will come fairly naturally if you’re doing the other stuff correctly. Watch that video. It says it better than I ever could. That same guy has some great stroke videos. I love his bh slice vid. 2hbh vid is maybe a bit lacking - I think because he hits a one hander. 1hbh vid is great.

Question for Will Hamilton (& others who promote laid back wrist on forehand contact)

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