The modern game

L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Lots of league 4.0's have real solid strokes, and some even use them for matchplay, but they often fall apart when the going get's tough.
Most 4.5's can apply solid strokes against their peers and below, but often fall apart against better players.
I've seen A/Open level guys, college Div1 singles levels, have their strokes fall apart when they are pressured by better players.
 
H

hawk eye

Hall of Fame
LeeD said:
Lots of league 4.0's have real solid strokes, and some even use them for matchplay, but they often fall apart when the going get's tough.
Most 4.5's can apply solid strokes against their peers and below, but often fall apart against better players.
I've seen A/Open level guys, college Div1 singles levels, have their strokes fall apart when they are pressured by better players.
Click to expand...

I guess its a matter of footwork then. The pace it higher than they re used to, and then are out of postion more often than not. Result: weak replies and errors.
 
bad_call

bad_call

Legend
LeeD said:
Lots of league 4.0's have real solid strokes, and some even use them for matchplay, but they often fall apart when the going get's tough.
Most 4.5's can apply solid strokes against their peers and below, but often fall apart against better players.
I've seen A/Open level guys, college Div1 singles levels, have their strokes fall apart when they are pressured by better players.
Click to expand...

my strokes fell apart when those young things came over to watch play and chatted about how terrible my strokes looked but amazed at the heavy ball hitting. ;)
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Did you just hit the nail on the head?
Nobody watched our first set.
Nobody watched our third set.
I got TWO games the second set.
 
D

dknotty

Semi-Pro
Power Player said:
http://www.tennisresources.com/inde...idid=3549&ATT=&basicsearch=1&media_name=&rv=1


Here you go.

Yes, coiling the body and then swinging to contact properly. Both are very important and rarely done right on the rec level.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much.

LeeD said:
Lots of league 4.0's have real solid strokes, and some even use them for matchplay, but they often fall apart when the going get's tough.
Most 4.5's can apply solid strokes against their peers and below, but often fall apart against better players.
I've seen A/Open level guys, college Div1 singles levels, have their strokes fall apart when they are pressured by better players.
Click to expand...

So true, and this is where folks need to practice practice practice practice practice practice practice. Work on the technique slowly then up the tempo until you can do it faster and more naturally.

I'd be interested in learning about how to get muscle memory to "take" faster.
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
"Take faster"....
More reps.
Some people acquire new things quickly, while other's are dinosaurs when it comes to adapting new levels of play, stroke techniques, or strategy.
 
D

dknotty

Semi-Pro
LeeD said:
"Take faster"....
More reps.
Some people acquire new things quickly, while other's are dinosaurs when it comes to adapting new levels of play, stroke techniques, or strategy.
Click to expand...

I've been playing recently with a guy, he's given me lots of pointers, one of which is to practice strokes with the racket but without the ball. I find this very helpful, doing it completely on the court with footwork.

Its a bit like how we learn kung fu in our school - you learn the points along the movement first, then learn the forces involved, then we add various body techniques (weight, the bow string and then body rotation). This takes approximately 1.5 years for the first form!
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
Power Player said:
I dont see many people do it when rallying even.

Also when the points count now it is much easier for me to incorporate. It takes a lot of practice, but I am so much more consistent that the pressure points are easier for me to deal with since I am confident in my technique.
Click to expand...

THis is one of several reasons MTM starts out new students in Open or semi
open stances....it gets them started with the coil and on balance.
Imo if you start with something, it tends to stick...like in the first learned principle.
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
We used to think shadow swinging is a good way to learn certain strokes hitting to a certain spot.
You have to be deligent to practice only those strokes to those spots, as brainless swinging doesn't help at all.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
dknotty said:
I'd be interested in learning about how to get muscle memory to "take" faster.
Click to expand...

What I use is drills having a rt hander step out with the right foot and coil for
Fh feeds....
then when they do it well with one step, I mix in where they have to move a
couple of yards, THEN step out with the rt foot and coil for the Fh.
Using two hands for the takeback coil.
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Even back in 1976, the taught way to takeback is to use both hands, one on the throat to turn until dead sideways, then release the throat hand, and continue back with the rackethand.
We watched ChrisEverts do it the old way, and had to suffer thru endless successions of WTA players who took the racket back with ONE hand.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
dknotty said:
Thanks very much.



So true, and this is where folks need to practice practice practice practice practice practice practice. Work on the technique slowly then up the tempo until you can do it faster and more naturally.

I'd be interested in learning about how to get muscle memory to "take" faster.
Click to expand...

First of all, you don't need to go faster and faster. Everyone reaches his/her limit. That's fine. The key is strength. If you have strength, then load up on weight. You can hit at your limited speed but with enough weight supported by your strength, each blow is as devastating as some one swinging fast with a light racket.

Probably only the top ATP guys could hit with shots that out pace your running. As far as recreational tennis is concerned everyone's shot pace is within most people's running. It's usually exhaustion after some time that does people in! So, my freind, it's all about strength.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
dknotty said:
The bulk of which comes from coiling the body?
Click to expand...

It comes from doing everything properly, and coiling / loading up the body is one of them. I just played with a girl who's pretty new to this (modern) tennis -- lol funny it's probably appropriate to use the word "modern" here cuz her last hitting was almost 10 years ago in college and she uses conti grip! -- after each session she said her back ached. She swings by coiling and twisting her upperbody!

You gotta hit by planting your foot and sprinting up/forward and hitting what I call with the whole side.
 
Tight Lines

Tight Lines

Professional
Shroud said:
Trying to get my head wrapped around some things and hopefully this is an ok place for these questions.

Heard these claims but never seen an explanation. Can anyone explain:

1. Smaller handles produce more spin.

2. Racket head speed is a more important factor in creating spin than racket weight.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Getting back to OP's original question no. 2, you might want to read the following article in Tennis Warehouse Univ.

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/racquetcontribution.php

Th relevant section is the following:
"The faster the racquet speed compared to the incoming ball, the less influence the innate properties of the racquet have on the ball. And contrariwise, the slower the racquet speed compared to the incoming ball speed, the more contribution the racquet has to ball speed. So, bunters, pokers, and patty-cakers rejoice! You get more out of your racquet than do the swing-for-the-fence animals using the same racquet. You get much more for your money! "


Harry
 
D

dknotty

Semi-Pro
user92626 said:
It comes from doing everything properly, and coiling / loading up the body is one of them. I just played with a girl who's pretty new to this (modern) tennis -- lol funny it's probably appropriate to use the word "modern" here cuz her last hitting was almost 10 years ago in college and she uses conti grip! -- after each session she said her back ached. She swings by coiling and twisting her upperbody!

You gotta hit by planting your foot and sprinting up/forward and hitting what I call with the whole side.
Click to expand...

My last hitting was 20 years ago, I did use an SW grip back then :shock: I'm now learning more theory and getting the practical stuff much better than I had 20 years ago!

tennis_balla said:
What are we gonna call tennis in 20 years the way its played? Post-modern? Ultra-modern?
Click to expand...

Chances are polys will be banned and we'll be back to 'old school' tennis.
 
tennis_balla

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
In "modern" tennis, you don't get the bulk of your power from your upper body, no wonder your friends' back hurts. It comes from the legs and core working together.

Edit: spelling error, supposed to be legs not leg.
 
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D

dknotty

Semi-Pro
tennis_balla said:
In "modern" tennis, you don't get the bulk of your power from your upper body, no wonder your friends' back hurts. It comes from the legs and core working together.

Edit: spelling error, supposed to be legs not leg.
Click to expand...

Any hints on how to get the legs and core working together?

What do you think is ruining tennis?
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
dknotty said:
My last hitting was 20 years ago, I did use an SW grip back then :shock: I'm now learning more theory and getting the practical stuff much better than I had 20 years ago!
Click to expand...
I guess you were more advanced than me and most people I know. I still remember 5 years ago I came to the court and guys literally laughed at me for using a continental grip.

I like theory and stuffs but I'm practical and simply reason and go with what is comfortable and efficient. Everybody learns differently :)
 
D

dknotty

Semi-Pro
user92626 said:
I guess you were more advanced than me and most people I know. I still remember 5 years ago I came to the court and guys literally laughed at me for using a continental grip.

I like theory and stuffs but I'm practical and simply reason and go with what is comfortable and efficient. Everybody learns differently :)
Click to expand...

I don't know about advanced :) I'm not sure I really know what I was doing back then and only just beginning to understand what I should be doing now.
 
tennis_balla

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
dknotty said:
Any hints on how to get the legs and core working together?

What do you think is ruining tennis?
Click to expand...

Less variety of different court surfaces but this will change again sooner or later. Whats fun about tennis is watching the different playing styles, strategies, techniques going head to head. Isn't as common these days.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
tennis_balla said:
In "modern" tennis, you don't get the bulk of your power from your upper body, no wonder your friends' back hurts. It comes from the legs and core working together.

Edit: spelling error, supposed to be legs not leg.
Click to expand...

balla,

Where do you locate and do you coach?
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
Tight Lines said:
Getting back to OP's original question no. 2, you might want to read the following article in Tennis Warehouse Univ.

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/racquetcontribution.php

Th relevant section is the following:
"The faster the racquet speed compared to the incoming ball, the less influence the innate properties of the racquet have on the ball. And contrariwise, the slower the racquet speed compared to the incoming ball speed, the more contribution the racquet has to ball speed. So, bunters, pokers, and patty-cakers rejoice! You get more out of your racquet than do the swing-for-the-fence animals using the same racquet. You get much more for your money! "

Harry
Click to expand...

Imo that is a terrible interpretation of the data, lol.
Seems that in each case, all the RHS is influencing the ball to the full extent,
and that % really has no place in this discussion.
All you had to do to keep the % constant was to raise the incoming ball speed.
Or what if you increase the ball speed and keep the RHS the same? Then
by this interpretation, that ball speed would have a smaller and smaller %,
but I don't see where % is relevant to the interest of the hitter.

According to their data, swing slower to get a higher %, but you will end up
with a much weaker shot for your effort....or should I say lack of effort.
 
D

dknotty

Semi-Pro
tennis_balla said:
Only because of Rafa and Fed, contrasting styles and 2 amazing guys on and off court. Once they retire, it'll be very different. IMO
Click to expand...

Also there is such a huge difference between the big 3/4 and the rest of the pack.

Personally I'd like to see a bit more variety in the game but it is really good watching as it is.
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
dknotty said:
My last hitting was 20 years ago, I did use an SW grip back then :shock: I'm now learning more theory and getting the practical stuff much better than I had 20 years ago!



Chances are polys will be banned and we'll be back to 'old school' tennis.
Click to expand...

Only if Breakpoint is voted to power
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
tennis_balla said:
Only because of Rafa and Fed, contrasting styles and 2 amazing guys on and off court. Once they retire, it'll be very different. IMO
Click to expand...

Do you think that will be the case only in the US, or will their exit reduce tennis popularity worldwide? I think tennis popularity is growing worldwide.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
tennis_balla said:
Only because of Rafa and Fed, contrasting styles and 2 amazing guys on and off court. Once they retire, it'll be very different. IMO
Click to expand...

I get you, but really, it just seems that way. The void will always be filled.
Del Potro, Dj and Murray are ripe to fill any void and seemed to have forced
their way in in spite of those awesome players you cite.
Then there always the others who come out of no where.
Take away the top 20 and some 2 or 3 will stand out and look great against
their peers, as it is always sooo relative.
 
tennis_balla

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
5263 said:
I get you, but really, it just seems that way. The void will always be filled.
Del Potro, Dj and Murray are ripe to fill any void and seemed to have forced
their way in in spite of those awesome players you cite.
Then there always the others who come out of no where.
Take away the top 20 and some 2 or 3 will stand out and look great against
their peers, as it is always sooo relative.
Click to expand...

We have it so good right now with those two, Roger and Rafa, that we will realize what sort of era we were actually able to witness once they are gone. Its beyond huge shoes to fill, its legendary.

There will be others and I'm thrilled that Canadian tennis is coming up so fast right now. Raonic just won a title beating Berdych and might actually make Tour Finals, Pospisil had an amazing summer and Bouchard has some serious potential. Peliwo is next to make his stand. Now its up to the coaches, tournament organizers and Tennis Canada to keep this wave going, keep the money flowing into the sport and open up more opportunities for all levels of the sport.
I agree with ya, tennis has a very good popularity right now and once again I believe its because of Roger and Rafa. I don't think it'll make a drastic drop once those two retire but it'll definitely be very different.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
It's probably all relative. Rafa and Fed look so good maybe because the rest suck (against them). Once they're gone, by chance some blokes will show up, just have to be better than most but not necessarily be as good as Rafa and Fed, we'll see the same scenario again.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
user92626 said:
It's probably all relative. Rafa and Fed look so good maybe because the rest suck (against them). Once they're gone, by chance some blokes will show up, just have to be better than most but not necessarily be as good as Rafa and Fed, we'll see the same scenario again.
Click to expand...

Yep, can you imagine how good DJ would look right now if you took Fed, Rafa, and Andy out of the mix?
 
S

suryanaga

New User
Getting back to OP's questions, racquet weight only affects the amount of spin imparted to the ball via the effects of swingweight on a player's swing. Racquet Head Speed plus technique determines the amount of spin applied to the ball (strings are important too).

The racquet's static weight contributes to the momentum when the swing is not angular (i.e. Volleys). The racquet's weight distribution contributes to the racquet's stability and angular momentum.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
5263 said:
Yep, can you imagine how good DJ would look right now if you took Fed, Rafa, and Andy out of the mix?
Click to expand...

Actually, DJ is genuinely good, Nada/Fed-caliber. It's Andy who's interesting and fits my point. Andy consistently makes to semi and finals almost all the time but always loses to these three (except the last 2 against DJ). Without Nadal, Fed, and DJ, Andy is going to look like Federer of the last decade. He'd clean up everything.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
user92626 said:
Actually, DJ is genuinely good, Nada/Fed-caliber. It's Andy who's interesting and fits my point. Andy consistently makes to semi and finals almost all the time but always loses to these three (except the last 2 against DJ). Without Nadal, Fed, and DJ, Andy is going to look like Federer of the last decade. He'd clean up everything.
Click to expand...

Andy is genuinely very good too Imo.
 
Shroud

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
suryanaga said:
Getting back to OP's questions, racquet weight only affects the amount of spin imparted to the ball via the effects of swingweight on a player's swing. Racquet Head Speed plus technique determines the amount of spin applied to the ball (strings are important too).

The racquet's static weight contributes to the momentum when the swing is not angular (i.e. Volleys). The racquet's weight distribution contributes to the racquet's stability and angular momentum.
Click to expand...

Thanks for keeping with it.

I was thinking more of not just producing spin but of counterbalancing incoming spin. When I played with light racket the rackets would get pushed around even if I swung really fast. With a heavy racket it doesnt get pushed around as much so wouldnt that weight help in countering spin?

Asked another way if I can get more RHS and spin with a light racket how come especially facing massive topspin the light racket gets pushed around and it is much harder to counter the incoming sping??
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Could it be a combo of both, AND the player wielding the stick?
Heavier weight should counter the spin of an incoming ball easier than lighter weights.
For some, heavier sticks are slower to swing.
Perhaps to counter a heavier ball with a light racket, fast swing speed is NOT the answer, but maybe a slower, more controlled, firm grip SOLID ball strike. That same kind of swing with a heavier racket can be more effective.
The lighter racket is not to play against the big strong shots, but to offensively play against the weaker, slower moving, less spinny shots.
At least as applied to my case.
Remember, more than ONE factor is at play here.
Heavier rackets promote more direct ball striking, so less mishits also.
 
G

GuyClinch

Legend
We have to decide what the old fashion game is before we claim to know what the modern one is like. :p

On the forehand side - i know of two basic forehands. One is a linear step in - finish mostly over the shoulder kind of forehand. Think Agassi, Berydch. And the other is a Spanish style kinda of like Nadal forehand..

I think both of these quality as modern - and both will sometimes 'steal' aspects from eachother. So which one is old fashioned?

Spanish style:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/...ewit/building_the_spanish_forehand_exercises/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX1e_akPk24

Berdych style..
 
Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
I wouldn't say either one is old-fashioned. The Spanish guys play on clay a lot, so they like to hit more topspin whereas Berdych is a tall guy who doesn't move great, so he has to penetrate the court more with his shots. They both use modern technique, and remember, Nadal does hit off his front foot at times, and Berdych does hit off his back foot out of an open stance at times too.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
Topspin Shot said:
I wouldn't say either one is old-fashioned. The Spanish guys play on clay a lot, so they like to hit more topspin whereas Berdych is a tall guy who doesn't move great, so he has to penetrate the court more with his shots. They both use modern technique, and remember, Nadal does hit off his front foot at times, and Berdych does hit off his back foot out of an open stance at times too.
Click to expand...

Virtually all male pros are going to use predominately modern strokes... just mainly the difference is traditional instruction puts you sideways with the racket back and stationary, pointing to back fence; then having you hit thru 3-5 balls with the idea any of those 5 balls would go to the target. This side stance gives you no coil to release into the shot as when you are already sideways, the shoulders are sideways as well unless you go WTA with it & wrap clear around the back side.

Modern instruction acknowledges that pro strokes don't go thru even 3 balls unless you are only hitting the last ball. Semi and open Fh stances when available give a nice coil for the core and facilitate working a diagonal...up and across the contact. Pros mostly use compensation moves for same effect when hitting from neutral and closed on the Fh, but not a problem for the Bh since the shoulders normally turn further away from the net, to get coil even from closed and neutral Bh shots.

Main different instructional points are working for the coil on the Fh along with the diagonal, up and across stroke thru the ball at the contact point.
 
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