federer modeled his serve from borg, becker or sampras?

taurussable · Sep 22, 2013

or someone else? why doesn't he have a high elbow finish like sampras or becker?

not attempting a high elbow finish at my weekend amateur level. just for the sake of understanding more about the serve.

Say Chi Sin Lo · Sep 22, 2013

Sampras, I think he said so himself a while back.

Bobby Jr · Sep 22, 2013

His serve is absolutely nothing like Becker's.

He's got some similar traits to Sampras without doubt - moreso than most others. It worked out well I guess.

taurussable · Sep 22, 2013

why doesn't he have a high elbow finish like sampras?

Fedinkum · Sep 22, 2013

His serve always reminded me of Pete.

Becker's serve was very different. Boris started with his weight on the back foot then transfer to front as he toss. Both his feet were almost aligned perpendicular to the base line whereas Pete and Fed's right foot are way out to the left. Boris landed on his right foot to give him that extra steps to the net. He also had a slightly more forehand grip and a much deeper knee bend.

Topspin Shot · Sep 22, 2013

taurussable said:
why doesn't he have a high elbow finish like sampras?

No one has a high elbow finish like Sampras. The high elbow isn't something you should shoot for on your serve. It is a result of Sampras's extreme flexibility. The internal shoulder rotation that leads to a (somewhat) high elbow on a good serve is a consequence of using a proper throwing action and tossing the ball well out into the court. To show how tossing out in a front leads to internal shoulder rotation, reach straight out as far as you can with your right arm to grasp something in front of you. Notice how your palm begins to rotate outward. In summary, don't focus on the ridiculously high elbow. It is a red herring, and it will seriously screw up your serve if you try to attempt it, not to mention your shoulder.

Roger Wawrinka · Sep 22, 2013

Say Chi Sin Lo said:
Sampras, I think he said so himself a while back.

Yeah, he's said before that in his younger days that he modeled his whole game after Sampras.

taurussable · Sep 22, 2013

becker seems to have a pretty high elbow too.

Topspin Shot · Sep 22, 2013

Not quite like Sampras though. And anyway, Becker also had an extremely flexible shoulder too. The vast majority of pros get a fairly high elbow, but not a super high elbow, and they certainly don't consciously try to get a high elbow.

Fedinkum · Sep 22, 2013

Taurussable's pic shows the classic serve volleyer scissor cross leg landing, which differs to Samprass and Fed. Cash had it when he won Wimbie, not sure why he let go the scissor kick towards the end.

Say Chi Sin Lo · Sep 22, 2013

taurussable said:
why doesn't he have a high elbow finish like sampras?

Why does he need to have a high elbow finish like sampras?

JoelDali · Sep 22, 2013

Fed modeled his serve after LeeD.

TennisCJC · Sep 23, 2013

Sampras' high elbow finish is fairly unique. Federer's serve is similar to Sampras' in the long full wind-up, and both hit lots of spin. Both have excellent 2nd serves too.

Sampras' was different in that Sampras' delayed the racket hand low in the take back. Pete tossed first and then completed wind-up. Federer has a very small pause in his wind-up but not the delay Pete had.

Sampras' had the bent high elbow finish. Federer does not. Neither do any of the top 4 - Murray, Djoko, or Nadal.

Becker had a bit of bent elbow too but not as much as Pete.

Does anyone know the advantage of the bent elbow? Why did Pete use it? Why do most current and past pros not use it?

andreh · Sep 23, 2013

Edberg --> also high elbow finish.

Topspin Shot · Sep 23, 2013

TennisCJC said:
Does anyone know the advantage of the bent elbow? Why did Pete use it? Why do most current and past pros not use it?

There is no advantage to having the extreme bent elbow. Pete did not use it. It was a result of his shoulder flexibility and nothing else. If you try to do what Pete did, you will screw up your shoulder. There is no free lunch on the serve.

Roddick85 · Sep 23, 2013

There's many similarities between the Federer and Sampras serve, even Fed himself said Pete was an inspiration to him when he was younger. They do share similarities, but they aren't exact replica from one another as no one is built the same. The similarities I can observe is the platform stance, the racket take back is similar. However, Sampras gets more knee bend and arches his back more than Federer.

sureshs · Sep 23, 2013

JoelDali said:
Fed modeled his serve after LeeD.

The copy was never as good as the original, though.

taurussable · Sep 23, 2013

Roddick85 said:
the racket take back is similar.

Federer's take back is
1, much longer
2, more delayed

does anyone has a longer take back than fed?

OTOH, he has a medium/short back swing in forehand though.

MurrayMyInspiration · Sep 23, 2013

taurussable said:
Federer's take back is
1, much longer
2, more delayed

does anyone has a longer take back than fed?

OTOH, he has a medium/short back swing in forehand though.

Feliciano Lopez

Fedinkum · Sep 23, 2013

And Fed doesn't stick out his tongue

BevelDevil · Sep 23, 2013

Sampras' upper body moves forward into the shot more than most players. This creates slack in his arm since both his racket and torso are moving in the same direction.

Federer stops his body momentum abruptly (and has a slight leftward tilt) while his racket is still going forward. This pulls his arm straight.

Even when Fed S&Vs, he still has the abrupt stop. Whereas Sampras always moves his head into the court, whether or not he's S&Ving.

Say Chi Sin Lo · Sep 23, 2013

Fedinkum said:
And Fed doesn't stick out his tongue

Crucial for bombing aces and bamboozling people with your 2nd serves.

taurussable · Sep 23, 2013

BevelDevil said:
Sampras' upper body moves forward into the shot more than most players. This creates slack in his arm since both his racket and torso are moving in the same direction.

Federer stops his body momentum abruptly (and has a slight leftward tilt) while his racket is still going forward. This pulls his arm straight.

Even when Fed S&Vs, he still has the abrupt stop. Whereas Sampras always moves his head into the court, whether or not he's S&Ving.

This is very interesting, would you care elaborate?

LeeD · Sep 23, 2013

I do agree with BevelDevil on Sampras's body moving forwards while Fed's tend to stop.
But in no way should this affect high elbow finishing.
Fed is more baseline player, while Sampras more net charger.
Possibly, Sampras just pronates stronger than most fellow tennis players.

SystemicAnomaly · Sep 23, 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npxP6Jej9iE

Topspin Shot said:
There is no advantage to having the extreme bent elbow. Pete did not use it. It was a result of his shoulder flexibility and nothing else. If you try to do what Pete did, you will screw up your shoulder. There is no free lunch on the serve.

Jeff Salzenstein and others have suggested that the high bent elbow after contact is performed to minimize stress to the shoulder and, possibly, other body parts during the follow-thru. Jeff refer's to the position as "the dirty diaper".

http://www.jeffsalzensteintennis.com/tennis-kick-serve-drill/

taurussable · Sep 23, 2013

SystemicAnomaly said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npxP6Jej9iE

Jeff Salzenstein and others have suggested that the high bent elbow after contact is performed to minimize stress to the shoulder and, possibly, other body parts during the follow-thru. Jeff refer's to the position as "the dirty diaper".

http://www.jeffsalzensteintennis.com/tennis-kick-serve-drill/

just tried shadow swing with two finishes. High elbow finish forces me to elevate the right shoulder more.

with a straight arm finish I felt a bit more shoulder pull..

the theory has its merit looks like.

LeeD · Sep 23, 2013

High elbow also reinforces finishing your stroke as you hit the ball, not after you hit the serve. The delay in the elbow forces the rackethead to come thru on the stroke, finishing the swing at the moment of contact, instead of using excess energy still swinging after you have already hit the ball.

Topspin Shot · Sep 23, 2013

SystemicAnomaly said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npxP6Jej9iE

Jeff Salzenstein and others have suggested that the high bent elbow after contact is performed to minimize stress to the shoulder and, possibly, other body parts during the follow-thru. Jeff refer's to the position as "the dirty diaper".

http://www.jeffsalzensteintennis.com/tennis-kick-serve-drill/

But there is no extreme internal shoulder rotation in the dirty diaper finish. I was referring solely to Pete Sampras's high elbow finish, not the dirty diaper finish. You are right in saying that the dirty diaper will not hurt your shoulder.

taurussable · Sep 23, 2013

LeeD said:
High elbow also reinforces finishing your stroke as you hit the ball, not after you hit the serve. The delay in the elbow forces the rackethead to come thru on the stroke, finishing the swing at the moment of contact, instead of using excess energy still swinging after you have already hit the ball.

sounds so correct to me..

Topspin Shot · Sep 23, 2013

If you get the ball toss out in front, you won't have to worry about wasting energy swinging after you hit the ball. Google shoulder impingement. Forcing a Pete Sampras elbow finish when you don't have Pete Sampras's range of motion will impinge your shoulder.

HackersRUs · Sep 23, 2013

I think there comes a point in every good player's development when they start to become unique to themselves.

I remember Lleyton Hewitt saying once that, when he was a kid, he was always switching between various styles, never sure if he wanted an Agassi forehand, or a Courier one, or an Edberg volley (nice choice!) etc etc.

Lleyton said he only started to make progress when he realised what he really needed was a Hewitt forehand and a Hewitt backhand etc etc.

I think the same is true of Fed. Sure, I reckon he started off using Sampras as a model (well, why wouldn't you?) but evolved to become, well, Roger Federer.

martini1 · Sep 23, 2013

Fed's technique is based on the straight arm theory. And I bet this has carried over to his serve finish as well.

Another great point on saying copying someone's serve frame to frame is useless. If anybody could have carbon copy Pete's serve, it would be the teen Fed. But he (and his coach) came up with something better for him.

SystemicAnomaly · Sep 24, 2013

Topspin Shot said:
But there is no extreme internal shoulder rotation in the dirty diaper finish. I was referring solely to Pete Sampras's high elbow finish, not the dirty diaper finish. You are right in saying that the dirty diaper will not hurt your shoulder.

Do not understand the distinction that you are making. To my mind the Sampras follow-thru technique and the Jeff's "dirty diaper" are pretty much the same thing. Note that the left shoulder had dropped so that shoulder line is tilted when the elbow is raised. This left shoulder drop should prevent impingement.

http://jeffsalzensteintennis.blogspot.com/2012/10/tennis-kick-serve-drill-story-behind.html

taurussable · Sep 24, 2013

SystemicAnomaly said:
Do not understand the distinction that you are making. To my mind the Sampras follow-thru technique and the Jeff's "dirty diaper" are pretty much the same thing. Note that the left shoulder had dropped so that shoulder line is tilted when the elbow is raised. This left shoulder drop should prevent impingement.

http://jeffsalzensteintennis.blogspot.com/2012/10/tennis-kick-serve-drill-story-behind.html

Jeff mentioned in many videos he modelled sampras serve, so should be pretty similar

BevelDevil · Sep 24, 2013

Look at how Federer is fading off to the left, almost away from the ball (slide #10, Federer). Seems like that would "pull" the arm straight. Compare that with slide #14, Sampras.

What's causing him to fall to the left? Seems like the combination of two things: Compared to Sampras, Federer arches his back more, and he lines up to the baseline at a less acute angle.

SystemicAnomaly · Sep 24, 2013

^ A couple of other possible answers to that question. Federer's left foot lands pointing off more to the left than Sampras' left foot. Roger's right leg kicks off to the right moreso than Pete's right leg. These factors can be causes or they can symptoms. It is difficult to say for certain.

Raul_SJ · Sep 26, 2013

Does Sampras always finish on the right side of the body?

Jeff Salzenstein recommends finishing on the right side for the kick serve ala Stosur.

taurussable · Sep 26, 2013

It's hard to tell if he is serving a first or second serve.. both have much spin..

SystemicAnomaly · Sep 26, 2013

Raul_SJ said:
Does Sampras always finish on the right side of the body?

Jeff Salzenstein recommends finishing on the right side for the kick serve ala Stosur.

I believe that Sampras finishes on the left side of the body for all serves. Might be wrong about that tho'. Some pros finish on the right for the kick, others on the left. Here is a thread from last year that you might recall:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=445436

Topspin Shot · Sep 26, 2013

SystemicAnomaly said:
Do not understand the distinction that you are making. To my mind the Sampras follow-thru technique and the Jeff's "dirty diaper" are pretty much the same thing. Note that the left shoulder had dropped so that shoulder line is tilted when the elbow is raised. This left shoulder drop should prevent impingement.

I've never actually seen Jeff model the dirty diaper like that. In all his DD videos that I've seen, he goes out of his way to explain that the DD finish is not a "pronation" (i.e. extreme ISR) finish. For example, he has a video called "Should you pronate on the kick serve?"; the answer to that question, according to him is no.

You are correct in saying that the shoulder tilt should prevent impingement, but I can guarantee you from looking at the OP's serve videos that he is nowhere near flexible enough to get that shoulder tilt. If he tries to model Sampras's high elbow, he will get the high elbow and extreme ISR, but he will not get the shoulder tilt or the proper mechanics and will hurt his shoulder.

MasturB · Sep 26, 2013

Federer's serve actually reminds me more of Agassi's platform. With Agassi the timing is more fluid, while Federer certainly has more more pop.

Raul_SJ · Sep 28, 2013

SystemicAnomaly said:
I believe that Sampras finishes on the left side of the body for all serves. Might be wrong about that tho'. Some pros finish on the right for the kick, others on the left. Here is a thread from last year that you might recall:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=445436

I have the Jeff Salzenstein "Tennis Serve Secrets" instructional video, and Jeff specifically mentions that the right-side finish is used by Stosur and Sampras...

Jeff says he likes to teach the high elbow right-side finish for kick serve to his students. (And in his experience, it has not caused shoulder problems to students.)

I am thinking that as long as one gets to that high elbow position (similar to Sampras below, but probably not that extreme) one can either hold that right-side finish or come around across the body.

The important thing is to get to that high elbow position, and after that, you can either stay on the right side or come around across the body...Would that be correct?

Say Chi Sin Lo · Sep 28, 2013

If you watched Federer when he was coming up the rankings in the early 2000's, he even adopted Sampras' "left-foot-up" routine.

taurussable · Sep 28, 2013

Raul_SJ said:
I have the Jeff Salzenstein "Tennis Serve Secrets" instructional video, and Jeff specifically mentions that the right-side finish is used by Stosur and Sampras...

Jeff says he likes to teach the high elbow right-side finish for kick serve to his students. (And in his experience, it has not caused shoulder problems to students.)

I am thinking that as long as one gets to that high elbow position (similar to Sampras below, but probably not that extreme) one can either hold that right-side finish or come around across the body.

The important thing is to get to that high elbow position, and after that, you can either stay on the right side or come around across the body...Would that be correct?

Did Jeff advocate high elbow on flat/slice serve?

Raul_SJ · Oct 2, 2013

taurussable said:
Did Jeff advocate high elbow on flat/slice serve?

As I recall, Jeff advocates a different finish for slice serve...

What is not entirely clear to me is whether "finish" actually means the final ending position.

For example, it looks like Sampras gets to the high elbow position and then sometimes eventually comes around to the left side of the body... but Jeff still refers to the "high elbow right side finish" made famous by Sampras.

SystemicAnomaly · Oct 3, 2013

^ With the Sampras finish I think that it depends where the finish is finished. While he appears to follow-thru on the right side, his racket eventually comes across the body. I do not recall him ever finishing as Fabrice Santoro does in the following image:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=445436

Here is a serve from Sampras where the arm/racket follows-thru to the right and then finishes in front of him (altho' his hand finishes on his right side). On this serve he does not actually finish on the left side of his body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6E3vPigzxI

The Salzenstein slice serve is a bit different. It looks like he carves around (the outside of) the ball and it "appears" that he does not pronate. He does not finish with a high elbow but it does bend a tad later during the follow-thru. Upon close inspection of his "no-pronation" slice serve in slow-motion, he actually does rotate outward (pronate) slightly before coming around with the "carving" finish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-55rCazxA4

Say Chi Sin Lo · Oct 3, 2013

SystemicAnomaly said:
^ With the Sampras finish I think that it depends where the finish is finished. While he appears to follow-thru on the right side, his racket eventually comes across the body. I do not recall him ever finishing as Fabrice Santoro does in the following image:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=445436

Isn't that how how Stosur finishes? I've had shoulder surgeries, and it's actually quite horrifying to watch her serve. :?

taurussable · Oct 3, 2013

Say Chi Sin Lo said:
Isn't that how how Stosur finishes? I've had shoulder surgeries, and it's actually quite horrifying to watch her serve. :?

yes stosur, this finish ..., OTOH, the sampras/edberg finish nice to watch

Topspin Shot · Oct 3, 2013

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Stosur/Santoro finish either, but "ugly" is a strong word.

Ten_is · Oct 3, 2013

^ With the Sampras finish I think that it depends where the finish is finished. While he appears to follow-thru on the right side, his racket eventually comes across the body. I do not recall him ever finishing as Fabrice Santoro does in the following image:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=445436

Terrible serve. Terrible finish.

federer modeled his serve from borg, becker or sampras?

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