Weightlifting exercise for maximizing topspin?

Quadium

Quadium

Rookie
I've started weightlifting 4 months ago and i have noticed that while my arms and biceps have more mass, and i am able to hit harder...I don't have the function and flexibility to hit with more topspin. I think i have messed up my muscle memory with heavy weights & that has affected my form. I am just wondering if any of you guys have any specific weightlifting exercises that would benefit my topspin performance.

Thanks in Advance,
Quadium
 
N

NLBwell

Legend
Maximum topspin is achieved through whipping the racket through the ball. You want to increase the angle you translate/rotate your joints through (more angle of increasing racket head speed). Flexibility is what you want, not muscle mass. Try Yoga.
(you don't want a thicker whip)
 
WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
r2473 said:
Squat 2.5X your bodyweight and do HIIT.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it is safe to play tennis unless you can squat 2.5x your bodyweight.

In any case, I'd do shoulder and back work to maximize topspin. That means deadlifts, rows, pull ups, and shoulder work like throwers 10. This is because hitting heavy topspin requires a lot of racket head speed and usually the muscles contributing to internal rotation can get too strong and cause injuries to the rear shoulder girdle and all the rotator-cuff type muscularity.
 
P

Posture Guy

Professional
just a note, but if you're internally rotating your humerus to hit topspin, you're doing it wrong, and putting your shoulder at significant risk of injury.
 
D

DevilDog

Rookie
r2473 said:
Squat 2.5X your bodyweight and do HIIT.
Click to expand...

I spend a lot of time in the gym and most people cannot even squat 135lbs with proper form.

And it's really rare to see someone squatting 2.5 times their bodyweight. Now let's say they play tennis too, I would say never.

A 185lb guy would have to squat 462.5lbs, that is four 45lbs plates and one 25lbs plate on each side of an Olympic bar.

Unless you weigh 100lbs I would bet you cannot squat 2.5 times your body weight.
 
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
DevilDog said:
Unless you weigh 100lbs I would bet you cannot squat 2.5 times your body weight.
Click to expand...

What!!!!! That's heresy. I can squat 2.5 times my bodyweight.......some have claimed that I don't **quite** go down to full depth, but hey, my squat passes muster (or is it mustard) in Gold's Gym.

WildVolley said:
I'm not sure it is safe to play tennis unless you can squat 2.5x your bodyweight.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't recommend it.
 
D

DevilDog

Rookie
r2473 said:
What!!!!! That's heresy. I can squat 2.5 times my bodyweight.......some have claimed that I don't **quite** go down to full depth, but hey, my squat passes muster (or is it mustard) in Gold's Gym.



I wouldn't recommend it.
Click to expand...

Ok, now that we have weeded out the ridiculous posts.


OP, fully developed legs should be at the core of your training. All your power on serves, ground strokes, and volleys should come from your legs and core. Squats, Leg presses, and lunges are great for gaining mass and strength on your legs. Look at Nadal, Berdych, and Murray they all have huge quads.
Throw in an ab workout every other day and you should be crushing the ball in no time.

One of my favorite quotes from Agassi's book:
Gil Reyes " Strong legs obey, weak legs command."
 
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Bobby Jr

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
For power in tennis I'd think flexibility/range of motion exercises would be more beneficial than traditional weight training like bench pressing or squatting etc.

Forearm rotation and rotator cuff strengthening and loosening activities would be a good start. The throwers ten advised - it'll help you with more than just the serve.
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
It's a fact, 65% of your power comes solely from arm swing.
The other 35% is core, legs, all that kinetic crap.
 
Chotobaka

Chotobaka

Hall of Fame
I have found kettlebell training to be excellent for building functional strength without adding too much bulk. Rather than isolate muscles, most exercises work muscle groups in a synergistic, real-world fashion. If I had to pick only one exercise to perform because of time constraints, it would be kettlebell swings done in Tabata style intervals, throwing in some planks and push ups during the "rest" periods. Look into it.
 
P

Posture Guy

Professional
Kettlebell swings are a great exercise. Watch some videos from qualified instructors to ensure your form is sound, or better, book a lesson with a certified kettlebell instructor. You'll get more benefit from the exercise with less risk or injury.
 
Chotobaka

Chotobaka

Hall of Fame
Posture Guy said:
Kettlebell swings are a great exercise. Watch some videos from qualified instructors to ensure your form is sound, or better, book a lesson with a certified kettlebell instructor. You'll get more benefit from the exercise with less risk or injury.
Click to expand...

Yep, this is absolutely critical. Learning and sticking with correct form is paramount with this exercise. KB swings really translate well for tennis, or anything else for that matter.
 
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D

dominikk1985

Legend
r2473 said:
Squat 2.5X your bodyweight and do HIIT.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure there has never been a pro player who ever did a full ATG squat with 2.5 times their BW. I'm not saying that there was never a player able to do it, just sure that no one ever tried.


people always want to implement weightlifting methods like box squats or power cleans into sports, but very few pros train like that. I have seen videos mostly of them doing conventional machines, some dumbels and in newer times also some kettlebells or med balls.

But I have never seen one putting 300 pounds on their back and doing deep squats (maybe half squats).
 
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
^^ You've never seen the video of Federer and Nadal in the gym together squatting 475 side by side?
 
C

comeback

Hall of Fame
Posture Guy said:
just a note, but if you're internally rotating your humerus to hit topspin, you're doing it wrong, and putting your shoulder at significant risk of injury.
Click to expand...

Thanks PG, can you show us a link or explain further how this is done (incorrectly)? thanks
 
C

comeback

Hall of Fame
LeeD said:
It's a fact, 65% of your power comes solely from arm swing.
The other 35% is core, legs, all that kinetic crap.
Click to expand...

Agreed, i've seem some pretty effective "ARM" serves. Lots of very good players (even pros) don't bend at the knees or use their legs on every shot..It's all about the strings, racket head speed. (and a strong core)
 
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C

comeback

Hall of Fame
Quadium said:
I've started weightlifting 4 months ago and i have noticed that while my arms and biceps have more mass, and i am able to hit harder...I don't have the function and flexibility to hit with more topspin. I think i have messed up my muscle memory with heavy weights & that has affected my form. I am just wondering if any of you guys have any specific weightlifting exercises that would benefit my topspin performance.

Thanks in Advance,
Quadium
Click to expand...

My opinion is that exercise bands work the best..And all the pros use them
 
P

Posture Guy

Professional
comeback....hold your arm straight out in front of you, palm facing inward so the thumb is pointing straight up. Your arm is in a neutral position. Now bend at the elbow and pull your hand directly back to your shoulder so your thumb moves as close to your shoulder as possible while keeping the palm facing inward, no rotation. Then extend back out. That's what your service motion should be with respect to arm movement.

But what many want to do is pronate. To pronate, bend the arm back like described above, but as you extend it, rotate so the palm doesn't stay facing inward, it rotates inward so that the palm is now facing down when the arm is extended directly in front of you. That's pronation. A lot of people want to pronate when they serve in an attempt to generate more pace. It may do that, but doing that is death to a shoulder. If you pronate when you serve, it's not a question of if you'll have rotator cuff problems, but when and how severe.

And if on a forehand someone tries to use pronation to 'cover' the ball and generate spin, they're doing it wrong. It should be the wrist hinging, like the beauty queen wave, with the racquet brushing the ball. Djokovic has perhaps the best forehand in the game today and does not pronate. Pronation at speed and under load is very, very hard on the shoulder.
 
C

comeback

Hall of Fame
Posture Guy said:
comeback....hold your arm straight out in front of you, palm facing inward so the thumb is pointing straight up. Your arm is in a neutral position. Now bend at the elbow and pull your hand directly back to your shoulder so your thumb moves as close to your shoulder as possible while keeping the palm facing inward, no rotation. Then extend back out. That's what your service motion should be with respect to arm movement.

But what many want to do is pronate. To pronate, bend the arm back like described above, but as you extend it, rotate so the palm doesn't stay facing inward, it rotates inward so that the palm is now facing down when the arm is extended directly in front of you. That's pronation. A lot of people want to pronate when they serve in an attempt to generate more pace. It may do that, but doing that is death to a shoulder. If you pronate when you serve, it's not a question of if you'll have rotator cuff problems, but when and how severe.

And if on a forehand someone tries to use pronation to 'cover' the ball and generate spin, they're doing it wrong. It should be the wrist hinging, like the beauty queen wave, with the racquet brushing the ball. Djokovic has perhaps the best forehand in the game today and does not pronate. Pronation at speed and under load is very, very hard on the shoulder.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed explanation PD , I'm pretty sure i do pronate only when i hit a flat serve. I have had some very slight shoulder soreness but rarely...Possibly because i am very diligent in doing exercise bands for my shoulder. As far as the forehand i think I'm ok. No pain even after switching to full poly for the first time in my life..
 
Quadium

Quadium

Rookie
Thank you everyone for your helpful comments. Ive started doing quarter mile sprints, followed by leg press, squat, deadlift and leg extensions. Finishing up with lats, core & shoulders. Im getting great results. My shots are alot more fluid. I will be posting my exact workout routine soon with my before & after pics.
 
B

Boricua

Hall of Fame
lift low weight,push ups, pull ups, dips, squats, weight machines, abdominal exercises, some karate flex muscles and swim
 
Last edited:
D

DevilDog

Rookie
Posture Guy said:
comeback....hold your arm straight out in front of you, palm facing inward so the thumb is pointing straight up. Your arm is in a neutral position. Now bend at the elbow and pull your hand directly back to your shoulder so your thumb moves as close to your shoulder as possible while keeping the palm facing inward, no rotation. Then extend back out. That's what your service motion should be with respect to arm movement.

But what many want to do is pronate. To pronate, bend the arm back like described above, but as you extend it, rotate so the palm doesn't stay facing inward, it rotates inward so that the palm is now facing down when the arm is extended directly in front of you. That's pronation. A lot of people want to pronate when they serve in an attempt to generate more pace. It may do that, but doing that is death to a shoulder. If you pronate when you serve, it's not a question of if you'll have rotator cuff problems, but when and how severe.

And if on a forehand someone tries to use pronation to 'cover' the ball and generate spin, they're doing it wrong. It should be the wrist hinging, like the beauty queen wave, with the racquet brushing the ball. Djokovic has perhaps the best forehand in the game today and does not pronate. Pronation at speed and under load is very, very hard on the shoulder.
Click to expand...
So what you are saying is that every pro in the modern era will have to have shoulder surgery.? Pronation is an integral part of the modern serve.
 
P

Posture Guy

Professional
Not every pro pronates, but those who do are putting tremendous strain on their shoulders. My instructor has worked with a lot of tour guys and knows folks from most of the top guys' camps. He estimates that at least 60% of the top 50 guys in the world have serious shoulder issues right now, and the majority of the rest have issues at some stage of development.
 
D

DevilDog

Rookie
Posture Guy said:
Not every pro pronates, but those who do are putting tremendous strain on their shoulders. My instructor has worked with a lot of tour guys and knows folks from most of the top guys' camps. He estimates that at least 60% of the top 50 guys in the world have serious shoulder issues right now, and the majority of the rest have issues at some stage of development.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Can you give a name of a least one person in the top 500 that does not pronate? I would like to watch their serve and see how they follow through after making contact with the ball.
 
C

comeback

Hall of Fame
IMO i think most pros do pronate but do preventative maintenance with bands or something similar to prevent shoulder problems..i know that i have pronated for years with no shoulder issues
 
P

Posture Guy

Professional
the more well positioned and functional the entire shoulder girdle is, the less destructive pronating while serving will be. Still puts a LOT of rotational torque on the shoulder while in an overhead position, which some shoulders handle better than others. For sure.
 
TimeSpiral

TimeSpiral

Professional
DevilDog said:
Ok, now that we have weeded out the ridiculous posts.


OP, fully developed legs should be at the core of your training. All your power on serves, ground strokes, and volleys should come from your legs and core. Squats, Leg presses, and lunges are great for gaining mass and strength on your legs. Look at Nadal, Berdych, and Murray they all have huge quads.
Throw in an ab workout every other day and you should be crushing the ball in no time.

One of my favorite quotes from Agassi's book:
Gil Reyes " Strong legs obey, weak legs command."
Click to expand...

Alright, well, the reason you want strong legs and a strong core is so you can cover the court at a high level for the entire match. You have to be able to sprint, stop, change directions, jump, squat, lunge, and all sorts of stuff. All of these activities benefit from strong legs and core.

You probably get a little bit of power from leg drive or core rotation, but I'm inclined to think that the majority of the power comes from the racquet colliding with the incoming tennis ball. An energy transfer occurs, and as long as the racquet impart more energy to the ball than the other way around, the ball is propelled forward with a new velocity, trajectory, and spin profile.

Sure, maybe some of this comes from the legs. But that's not why you need a strong lower body to play tennis well.

LeeD said:
It's a fact, 65% of your power comes solely from arm swing.
The other 35% is core, legs, all that kinetic crap.
Click to expand...

I'm inclined to agree with the TT GOAT, LeeD, although I really wish he'd source his work. :twisted:

OP - there is no weightlifting exercise that has a direct relationship with topspin. Topspin is the effect of technique, not necessarily muscle strength.

You mentioned that you felt your form was being compromised while weight training. From what I understand, "strength training" (heavy weights) is not recommended while you're "in season." But what the hell do I know? I'm not a trainer. But as your muscles grow you do have to adjust how to handle the new body mass. Stretching / flexibility and training on the court are essential to maintaining form. Just know that proper weight training requires rest.
 
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
LeeD said:
It's a fact, 65% of your power comes solely from arm swing.
The other 35% is core, legs, all that kinetic crap.
Click to expand...

Do you mean this literally? As in you actually swing the racquet with the small muscles of your arm?

I know for me, it's all (mostly) kinetic chain. Big muscles move small muscles. I like to feel like I keep my arm "weightless". As little tension as possible. So when I fire my big muscles (hips and sometimes shoulders), my little muscles (arm/racquet) are pulled into the shot. It's impossible to "lead with the butt of your racquet" with an arm swing.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/...images/nick_bollet_killer_forehand_part1.html

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/...ollet_killer_forehand_part2.html?format=print

And this technique is what the OP needs to use to maximize topspin. If you use your arm/hand to generate topspin, it will never work. Your arm/hand is just the end of the whip.

Same goes for the serve. You shouldn't actively try to pronate your wrist to generate spin. This is something that "just happens" if you set up right and allow the big muscles to move the small muscles.

If this doesn't work, try doing pullovers with 2.5x your bodyweight and see if that helps.
 
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C

comeback

Hall of Fame
r2473 said:
Do you mean this literally? As in you actually swing the racquet with the small muscles of your arm?

I know for me, it's all (mostly) kinetic chain. Big muscles move small muscles. I like to feel like I keep my arm "weightless". As little tension as possible. So when I fire my big muscles (hips and sometimes shoulders), my little muscles (arm/racquet) are pulled into the shot. It's impossible to "lead with the butt of your racquet" with an arm swing.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/...images/nick_bollet_killer_forehand_part1.html

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/...ollet_killer_forehand_part2.html?format=print

And this technique is what the OP needs to use to maximize topspin. If you use your arm/hand to generate topspin, it will never work. Your arm/hand is just the end of the whip.

Same goes for the serve. You shouldn't actively try to pronate your wrist to generate spin. This is something that "just happens" if you set up right and allow the big muscles to move the small muscles.

If this doesn't work, try doing pullovers with 2.5x your bodyweight and see if that helps.
Click to expand...

Maybe Lee means racket head speed which is mostly your arm..It is possible to hit fast strokes/serves even topspin in some cases without using the kinetic chain it's just not as efficient
 
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
comeback said:
Maybe Lee means racket head speed which is mostly your arm..It is possible to hit fast strokes/serves even topspin in some cases without using the kinetic chain it's just not as efficient
Click to expand...

Racquet head speed isn't mostly your arm IMO. For me, it's very, very little arm. Little as possible.

And you won't have the consistency/repeatable action with an arm swing.

Also have a much better chance of getting overuse injuries to your small muscles (tennis elbow).
 
D

dominikk1985

Legend
Use the proper kinetic chain to generate RHS.

having strong arms is good but being out of sequence is severly limiting your RHS.

I do not believe in a passive "along for the ride" arm but you cannot use the arm before the legs and hips have been engaged.
 
P

Posture Guy

Professional
dominikk is right on. The term for this is "kinematic sequencing". If you put top player through such analysis where you put sensors on him and then use advanced motion analysis, you'll see a consistent pattern for both the setup and the swing where the hips begin to uncoil, then the trunk follows, then the arm follows from that. If you are trying to generate the racquet head speed from the arm and shoulder instead of the hips and trunk first, you're doing it wrong and you'll strain your arm and shoulder.

Ever ice skated or roller skated at a rink with a group of people where you put 10-20 people in a line holding hands and start going in circles? The folks towards the center are not moving very fast but the folks on the end start whipping around so quickly that eventually they have to let go. That's the principle you want to deploy.

When the hips and core lag behind the arm, your shot is robbed of power, you can just feel it.

Golf instructors are starting to use this analysis in a big way, becoming much more common. Not super common in tennis instruction yet. The equipment is pretty expensive to do it right.
 
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
dominikk1985 said:
I do not believe in a passive "along for the ride" arm but you cannot use the arm before the legs and hips have been engaged.
Click to expand...

I may or may not mean this literally, I'm actually not sure. But it is the "feel" I like to have in my swing/serve.
 
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