solving the kick serve constraint satisfaction problem

Gentlepeople,

I am a new member. Been lurking since last Fall when I started playing tennis regularly. I am 42, 189cm (6"2 1/2). I now play with the Wilson Juice 100s strung with the Federer blend at 56/52. I am right handed and I serve with a continental hammer grip.

I have a very hard and fast flat serve both down the T and out wide on both courts that hits the back curtain about chest high in an indoor court. With practice I have upped the percentage to around 40%. My first serve is practically un-returnable to most of the folks I play with. They usually stand way back, by the back curtain and just try to get a racquet on the ball and get it in play. I ace around half the time when the first serves land. I win a majority of the ones that the opponents do make contact.

I have a good pure slice/top-spin slice serve with a 10-15% reduction in pace on both ends as well using the continental grip. I can get the ball to move 4-7 feet laterally (discounting angle) from where it lands in the service box as measured at the point of impact at the back curtain. I can get more movement if I use the eastern backhand with a 20-30% reduction in pace. I use the top-slice as my second serve when I am leading. It is still not a safe serve for me. I get it in around 60% of the time and win a majority of the points when the serve goes in.

These two serves have come relatively easily to me and in time I think I can improve the percentages.

I sorely need a good twist kick serve or a pure kick serve. Things have become a bit predictable on my second serve and I am having to rely placement to keep my opponents guessing which reduces the service percentage when under point pressure.

Here is where things stand with my quest to develop a good kick and then hopefully a good twist kick. I have no issues getting a big kick. I can get it to bounce anywhere between 6 feet and 14 feet depending on where the ball lands and how high the ball goes before it lands, when I get the ball to drop in the service box.

The problem I have is for a 95% error free rate, I have to drastically trade off either

i. how hard I hit the ball on depressed trajectories while still getting the ball to drop into the service box. When I do this, it kicks up about 6 feet and gets to the baseline about stomach high at about half the pace of my flat serve and dropping quickly. My opponents usually drop back and bit and handle the serve without much discomfort. For some match ups, the ball sits nicely in the wheelhouse and I get a hard ball back.

ii. the distance it travels after it drops, if I hit the ball mostly straight up in an elevated trajectory where the ball goes very high drops in and kicks up at least ten feet, but is waist high and less than half the pace of the flat by the time it reaches the baseline. This confuses my opponents initially but they adjust quickly wait for the ball to drop and then take hard cuts.

I have recently learnt the mechanics of the twist top spin somewhat. Using a continental grip, I can get the ball to move about 3-4 feet (discounting angle) with a 10-15% reduction in pace to my flat serve, in a direction opposite to my slice as measured at the back curtain (while serving from close to the center of the baseline). But the percentage is woeful, about 20%. The wrist motion at contact does not come as easily to me, as the top slice and I miss long.

The high speed videos out there (that were pointed out in related threads) give me a reasonable understanding of what is happening from the back and the front. But what happens in a twist/pure-kick when it comes to the side on view, especially the mechanics that control pace, is not very clear to me. I assume the delayed pronation adds to the pace. When I try to exaggerate that aspect I do get pace while retaining height, but I miss long.

I would appreciate any suggestions to help me achieve a good high percentage kick/twist kick serve.

Video?
It sounds like you need more topspin to get your percentages up.

If we're lucky, you'll have another feather in your cap. Tie for fastest ban ever.

without a video to disseminate your strokes, we can just throw any youtube serve videos out there to fix your strokes.

I was under the mistaken assumption that as a new member I cannot post links. I guess I cannot post attachments but links are ok.

I will create, edit and upload a video to youtube soon. I will not be able to play until tomorrow evening PST. That is the latest when I can record footage. I will try to have a friend help me film. Plan to use a Canon T2i and shoot at 1080p in the sports mode setting.

I am here to learn. I have achieved a lot in a short amount of time from information on this forum. Especially "Chas Tennis".

So you say your current kick serve bounces 6' high and sometimes 14 feet high? I didn't understand that part.
Isner can kick it up around 7' at his maximum, measured around 6' behind the baseline.
NOBODY comes close to 14' so I must have misunderstood your humble brag.
EVERY serve need precise placement or it comes back harder and faster than you can handle. EVERY.
Sure, you can go out and play your grandmother, who never played tennis ever before, and she can't return your blind serves, but everyone else can.

Sorry, I think the 14' bounce threw people off. I was just pointing out the extreme that one can achieve by imparting top spin.

I am able to hit up on the ball some what like a top spin lob, where the ball goes nearly to the roof an indoor court falls in without much pace and bounces 14'. It does not travel very far. It does not stay up very long.

I am able to hit both forehand and 1HBH top spin lobs that go very high and bounce over an outstretched jumping 5' 10 man. The balls go over an indoor curtain. The 100s and the poly strings do allow for a large amount of top spin.

I am an engineer. I am trying to understand the limits of what is possible with the equipment that is available and try to maximize for the effects that I want.

OK, you clarified it.
Yes, a 6' high bounce on a kick serve, measured just behind the baseline, is a nice high bounce. Any lower, the serve needs more speed to be effective.
If your opponent starts to stand farther back to return your serves, you should hit wide slice serves instead of high or fast serves at them. The slice keeps the ball low, and coupled with wide placement, it's hard to hit a hard, well directed return.
IF the returner can handle you low wide slices, they are usually standing IN near the baseline, so hit a few hard flat right into their hip pockets.
If the returner is a rabbit who stand well back, but runs over to return your wide slice serves, learn a drop volley so they would need to run an additional 30% more distance to get to your second shot.
If your returner is 6'10" tall, learn to hit right into his body, to jam him and prevent him from using his reach to his advantage.

LeeD I used to be a pace bowler in cricket in my youth.

The thing that gives me a lot of pleasure is hitting a hard serve or a forehand right at an opponent and make them miss with pace, bounce and movement. This is what pace bowling in cricket is about.

Since I play recreationally and don't make a living out of playing tennis, I would like to learn to hit the way that gives me the most pleasure. I think I am on my way there.

Sooner or later, at some level around 4.0, you will start to meet players who can handle your fastest serves with ease, just blocking them back to your forehand or backhand side. No matter how much harder you hit, it's easy for them to return.
The key to Raonic's serve is PLACEMENT. Same with Groth's, Roddick's, Ivo's, and Isners.
Pure speed get's you to higher 4.0 levels, but that's all.
Now for sure, 150 mph will get you up to 5.0 levels, but I don't think you can approach that.
As a rec player, you might top out around 130, but believe me, 130 is nothing at 5.0 levels, as every player beyond 4.5 has faced serves that speed plenty of times.
So, basically, you need precise PLACEMENT of your serves to win at anything better than pickup recreational level, which is 3.5.

LeeD yes I understand placement is necessary. I do use it successfully. But for me to increase the spaces that I can hit and make my opponent miss is decreasing because people I play with frequently are getting used to the "righty" slice movement that I generate with my serve. They guess correctly that it will move from right to left. I do not have a serve that goes straight and bounces high with pace or one that moves the other way with pace.

When I bowled pace in cricket, I had a good out swinger, a good in swinger and and good bouncer all wit

all with good pace.

You can develop a pure topspin serve that bounce high, and straight upwards.
You can develop a top/slice serve that bounces high, out to your left.
You can develop a twist serve, that bounces high, out to your right.
You can even develop a slice serve that skids towards your right.
And of course, a flat serve that bounces straight ahead.
Those are your options, and every 4.0 has seen them all, especially from a rightie, which is 70% of the tennis population.
I can safely assume you are a 3.5 level player.

LeeD, yes the pure topspin and the twist is what I want to develop as I mentioned in first posting. I have developed a top slice and a pure slice that work well in match play.

I assume by a slice serve that skids to the right you mean a reverse slice hit with the opposite face. I don't think I am up for that yet. I toyed with it. The mechanics seem to be very injury inducing.

I have beaten 4.0 players consistently for pace and movement. I am good at getting to the net and have soft hands at the net. So am able to deal with weak returns.

The thing that is hurting me is that my highest percentage serve the pure top spin is very slow and sits up nicely asking to be hit. I would like to fix that. I resort to flatter or sliced top spin serves as second serves with strong opponents and my service games end up as toss ups because of double faults. Lots of multiple deuce games.

Yes I am a high 3.5.

OK, develop a top/slice serve that clears the net by TWO feet, that's 5' above the court surface, with lots of spin and 8/10ths as fast as you can swing. Saving the 2/10ths of effort, you should be consistent and almost never double fault. Use a continental grip with a slight twist towards eBackhand. Did I mention...swing 8/10th speed to begin with and to develop consistency. I swing full 10/10th for my topspin and top/slice second serves, and double fault maybe ONE in 3 sets. Some guys on here say my second serve bounces well over their heads, but they allow it to, not cutting off the angles of bounce height.
For a pure topspin second serve, toss the ball so it lands atop your head, but a bit into the court.
For a twist serve that arcs left, hit's the ground, then breaks off RIGHT, toss the ball so it lands on the back of your head, and swing out 45 degrees to your right side and up, finishing on your RIGHT side of your body. Aim this one 3' above the netcord.
So, your first fast flat serve might go 120mph.
Meaning, your top/slice first serves go 100.
Meaning, your second serve topspins, go 80mph.
Meaning, your twist serves go 70 mph.

Aiming a certain height above the net cord is something that I have had trouble visualizing. My eyes either tend to focus on the net cord or the receiver. When I focus on the receiver it helps to change serve mid course based on the direction they commit to. People usually tend to move to their right expecting a slice. I then tend to slice into their body rather than try to get it away from them. Sometime I go for the twist and the times I have gotten in it, it is a clear ace. I feels great when that happens. I know I can do it but my percentage is low.

Is there a way to visualize how to hit a certain height above the net cord?

Do you bowl? Notice the little arrows 20" from you on the lanes?
Targeting. You can't target out at 75+ feet. A closer target is easier to hit. Look at net cord. VISUALIZE a point in space 2' above. Keep the vision in your mind as you toss the ball up and swing at the ball.

This post is ridiculous. The guy says he is a 3.5, but talks like he is a 6.0. This is a troll post.

Harry

So, YOU can't hit flat serves.
YOU can't hit twist serves.
YOU can't hit top/slice serves.
I"m 4.0, I can hit all those serves, so I believe OP. AND, I guessed his rating, and he verified it.

More than one person accused me of being a troll.

I certainly am not a troll.

I was a middle class kid growing up in India. Tennis was a rich person's sport. I used to watch tennis on TV because the slam finals were televised. I always aspired to play tennis. The only tennis I got to play in India was occasionally with wooden racquets on cow dung courts.

Now after a school, graduate school, a career in high tech, marriage, kids - I am in a place where I can indulge in a sport that I have always loved. I have to money to pay for the equipment and some time to devote, now that my kids don't need constant attention. My hope is that my nine year old youngest child will pick up tennis and we can enjoy this sport together. She is enjoying it so far. My older child who is going to be twelve has no interest in sports let alone tennis.

I do not have the time to play competitively at least till my kids are older. This will give me time to make up for lost time and get better.

I have a well developed game in some ways - the hardest first serve of the people I have played with so far (which has mainly been mixers where people of all levels show up), a very powerful forehand, good hands at the net, good top spin lobs and good drop shots.

I also have a lot of weaknesses. Till recently I had only a slice backhand that could not take a lot of pace. My slice backhand returns would sit up, so I developed a good drop shot with a lot of under spin which does not have a lot of disguise after repeated use. I have in the past month and a half developed a top spin one handed backhand. It is still primarily defensive and the fast drives are still low percentage, but it has lifted my game on that wing substantially coupled with the drop shot that I don't need to use as often and a top spin 1HBH lob, I perfected using a ball machine. Another big weakness is prioritizing winning less than hitting winners. I don't like winning points off others errors as much. So my game tends to be mostly offensive - hard hits, drop shots, top spin lobs ...

I don't have a USTA membership yet. I don't play in any tournaments or leagues. Don't have time for that. I have time to go play at a scheduled pre-arranged time two or three times a week for two to three hours and some late nights to go practice, if it has not been a hard work or a busy family day. I have been doing this regularly since last fall and have seen a lot of improvement. A number of people I have played with have said I have the potential to be very good. They ask me to take lessons, but they tend to be during work hours or inconvenient times. The lesson, I did take did not give me much confidence because the pro was not up to date with the latest bio-mechanical discoveries in tennis that high speed photography has thrown up and was giving bad outdated advise.

I need to declare a rating to play in some of the mixers and I put in 3.5. I have played with folks who play USTA tournaments as 3.5 and 4.0 and have won both singles and doubles matches. I joined a 5.0 friendly doubles match to fill in for a player who fell ill. I held my serves in both sets, but we lost both closely contested sets (the second in tie breaks) in part due to the opponents targeting my weaker backhand.

I will post a video soon so you can see that I am a real person. Am willing to meet any other TT member based in the Portland, Oregon area if that helps.

LeeD, I tried to see if I could focus on a point in space and do something that involved that point. I tried some base ball style throws on tennis balls in the back yard over lawn chairs. I can do it if I am constantly looking at the top of the lawn chairs. However if I simulate a tennis serve where I look at the ball being served as long as possible and then shift gaze then I don't have time enough to find the edge of lawn chair and then find a point three feet higher while I am at the end of fast pitch.

Is there a way to quickly find a particular point in space in the split second you have while serving?

Practice? Muscle memory?
How about, can you fly a multi engined airplane right now? NO? But after two years of PRACTICE, you can.
Consider....you are 6'2" tall. That's 3 feet higher than the net.
You can go to a wall, tape a line 5' off the ground, stand back 40 feet and hit your serves at that line. Second serves.
For first serve practice, maybe aim 16" above the 36" mark.

LeeD, Yes that sounds reasonable. Thanks.

I don't have a wall that meets that requirement. I will see if I can find a way to jury rig a cord higher than the net cord while i am practicing and get rid of that crutch once it is burnt into muscle memory.

I think this movable target cord over the let cord will help me with my first serves. Over half my first serve misses are due to the ball hitting the net cord because that is what comes into focus after striking the ball and the little time I have to aim. I need to adjust the first serve trajectory a little bit higher but not too much higher. I need to do the reverse on my top spin serves. I have plenty of clearance. I need to reduce the clearance just enough to keep them in while preserving as much pace as I can.

NEVER ever never look at where you want to hit, or avoid hitting.
You serve and groundie, volley and overhead thru mechanics and muscle memory, not targeting with your eyes and then transmitting info to your brain and then over to your muscles.
NEVER look at your target, or the net!
From playing tennis, our strokes get grooved to clear the net, and to drop inside the baseline. Looking at the target limits you to 3.5 levels of tennis.
Your target doesn't move, so it's in place throught your physical movements.
You NOTICE where your opponent is located, you don't look at him. You look at the ball, period.
Even in high level doubles, you don't look at the netperson or the other partner, or your partner, you look only at the ball and you are aware of where to hit it based on our spatial awareness of the court and your positioning.

That is what I try to do. Keep an eye on the ball through contact and then follow it to the opponents court. Both for serves and ground strokes. Movements of opponents is through peripheral vision.

I was trying to find a way to create something tangible to iterate over to arrive at an optimal net clearance for my serves. This is so I could make the fine adjustments and then burn that into muscle memory through practice. I guess I can try and do that without anything physical and just keeping track of the clearance visually.

Hard to keep track of the clearance.
Much easier to note the landing based on your swing speed and angle of attack.
In time, it get's engraved in your mind. However, at stress moments, you can completely miss your target, even thinking about it and knowing where to hit it.
More practice ...

Tight Lines said:

This post is ridiculous. The guy says he is a 3.5, but talks like he is a 6.0. This is a troll post.

Harry

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Yup. Big-time troll. But has good storytelling skills. I think I know who he is, but the mods don't want me making accusations. So to everyone, please just report him.

That has been my experience as well. At least from my serving vantage it is very hard to tell net clearance with any accuracy unless it is a slow waiter serve.

I don't want to give up on swing speed. That is one variable I would not like to compromise on. I want to be able to swing as hard and freely as I smoothly can without undue exertion and still keep it in. I am willing to change others like leg drive, angle of attack, swing path, racquet face angle, wrist flexion, shoulder rotation etc to get the desired result.

Topspin_Shot, I do not know what will get you to stop making these unfounded accusations. Will posting a video tomorrow suffice?

I swing faster on second serves than I do on first flat serves.
However, I do change the face angle and swing as fast as I can on first spin serves, except for twists, that I can't swing fast at the up and out swingplane.
First serves maybe lowest 100's.
Second serves, with a faster swing, maybe mid 70's, unless it's a twist, which go maybe 62 mph.

bigservesofthands said:

Topspin_Shot, I do not know what will get you to stop making these unfounded accusations. Will posting a video tomorrow suffice?

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If you get a video on here, I'll apologize. Luckily this will never happen.

Topspin Shot.
I find it plausable that someone 6'2" can hit some hard serves, bounce some high twists, and basically hit harder than most 3.5's can handle.
Heck, I'm 5'10" and 65 years old, gimpy lame, and can hit serves hard enough to bother just about any 4.0 including the top 4.0's in California.
But it's possible, 4.0's in New York are better than 4.0's in Northern California.
Most 4.0's here resort to lobbing my serves back. And lots of mishit lucky short angles I can't reach.

Gentlepeople,

I am a new member. Been lurking since last Fall when I started playing tennis regularly. I am 42, 189cm (6"2 1/2). I now play with the Wilson Juice 100s strung with the Federer blend at 56/52. I am right handed and I serve with a continental hammer grip.

I have a very hard and fast flat serve both down the T and out wide on both courts that hits the back curtain about chest high in an indoor court. With practice I have upped the percentage to around 40%. My first serve is practically un-returnable to most of the folks I play with. They usually stand way back, by the back curtain and just try to get a racquet on the ball and get it in play. I ace around half the time when the first serves land. I win a majority of the ones that the opponents do make contact.

I have a good pure slice/top-spin slice serve with a 10-15% reduction in pace on both ends as well using the continental grip. I can get the ball to move 4-7 feet laterally (discounting angle) from where it lands in the service box as measured at the point of impact at the back curtain. I can get more movement if I use the eastern backhand with a 20-30% reduction in pace. I use the top-slice as my second serve when I am leading. It is still not a safe serve for me. I get it in around 60% of the time and win a majority of the points when the serve goes in.

These two serves have come relatively easily to me and in time I think I can improve the percentages.

I sorely need a good twist kick serve or a pure kick serve. Things have become a bit predictable on my second serve and I am having to rely placement to keep my opponents guessing which reduces the service percentage when under point pressure.

Here is where things stand with my quest to develop a good kick and then hopefully a good twist kick. I have no issues getting a big kick. I can get it to bounce anywhere between 6 feet and 14 feet depending on where the ball lands and how high the ball goes before it lands, when I get the ball to drop in the service box.

The problem I have is for a 95% error free rate, I have to drastically trade off either

i. how hard I hit the ball on depressed trajectories while still getting the ball to drop into the service box. When I do this, it kicks up about 6 feet and gets to the baseline about stomach high at about half the pace of my flat serve and dropping quickly. My opponents usually drop back and bit and handle the serve without much discomfort. For some match ups, the ball sits nicely in the wheelhouse and I get a hard ball back.

ii. the distance it travels after it drops, if I hit the ball mostly straight up in an elevated trajectory where the ball goes very high drops in and kicks up at least ten feet, but is waist high and less than half the pace of the flat by the time it reaches the baseline. This confuses my opponents initially but they adjust quickly wait for the ball to drop and then take hard cuts.

I have recently learnt the mechanics of the twist top spin somewhat. Using a continental grip, I can get the ball to move about 3-4 feet (discounting angle) with a 10-15% reduction in pace to my flat serve, in a direction opposite to my slice as measured at the back curtain (while serving from close to the center of the baseline). But the percentage is woeful, about 20%. The wrist motion at contact does not come as easily to me, as the top slice and I miss long.

The high speed videos out there (that were pointed out in related threads) give me a reasonable understanding of what is happening from the back and the front. But what happens in a twist/pure-kick when it comes to the side on view, especially the mechanics that control pace, is not very clear to me. I assume the delayed pronation adds to the pace. When I try to exaggerate that aspect I do get pace while retaining height, but I miss long.

I would appreciate any suggestions to help me achieve a good high percentage kick/twist kick serve.

bigservesofthands said:

I was under the mistaken assumption that as a new member I cannot post links. I guess I cannot post attachments but links are ok.

I will create, edit and upload a video to youtube soon. I will not be able to play until tomorrow evening PST. That is the latest when I can record footage. I will try to have a friend help me film. Plan to use a Canon T2i and shoot at 1080p in the sports mode setting.

I am here to learn. I have achieved a lot in a short amount of time from information on this forum. Especially "Chas Tennis".

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bigservesofthands said:

Sorry, I think the 14' bounce threw people off. I was just pointing out the extreme that one can achieve by imparting top spin.

I am able to hit up on the ball some what like a top spin lob, where the ball goes nearly to the roof an indoor court falls in without much pace and bounces 14'. It does not travel very far. It does not stay up very long.

I am able to hit both forehand and 1HBH top spin lobs that go very high and bounce over an outstretched jumping 5' 10 man. The balls go over an indoor curtain. The 100s and the poly strings do allow for a large amount of top spin.

I am an engineer. I am trying to understand the limits of what is possible with the equipment that is available and try to maximize for the effects that I want.

Click to expand...

bigservesofthands said:

LeeD I used to be a pace bowler in cricket in my youth.

The thing that gives me a lot of pleasure is hitting a hard serve or a forehand right at an opponent and make them miss with pace, bounce and movement. This is what pace bowling in cricket is about.

Since I play recreationally and don't make a living out of playing tennis, I would like to learn to hit the way that gives me the most pleasure. I think I am on my way there.

Click to expand...

The stuff highlighted in red is pure trollery and gives away who this poster is.

Topspin Shot,

I am sorry you feel that recounting my experiences come across as trollery. I will have to take it as a complement that what I have said came across as fantastical to you. What I have achieved must be fantastic at least to you and a few others - my wife and kids sure don't seem to understand the obsession. I will post a video here soon.

I assure you, I am a new member. I tried registering in Oct '13 when I got into tennis in earnest as "fulliautomatix" a character name I like from the Asterix comics series. My membership was rejected before it was ever approved by the TT automatic spam filter. So technically this is the first time I was allowed in. I have never posted in this forum before.

I must be missing some context here. So once things are cleared up maybe you can let me know what the person I am being associated with did to offend you and others, so I can avoid doing that.

Family (in charge of a slumber party tonight) and responsibilities (working on an important release at work) come first. I will get to the video by this weekend. I have never filmed myself playing tennis or filmed any sport, nor do I know anyone who does. So it will be a first and might take a few tries getting the right angles/settings and the kindness of fellow tennis players, who I am sure would rather be playing tennis than filming me.

If you're ever in Vegas, be sure to look up Aurellian.

Set the camera on a tripod or other solid object BEHIND you, around 5' off the ground, so the pic takes in you at the center of your baseline, and the whole court of your hitting partner, so we can see where the ball lands on his side of the court.
Without wide angle, we cannot see your alleys deeper than service line, but that's OK.

Topspin Shot said:

Yup. Big-time troll. But has good storytelling skills. I think I know who he is, but the mods don't want me making accusations. So to everyone, please just report him.

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This guy and LeeD are made for each other...

Except that LeeD has hit with President, Shroud, RobFl. all of whom have already said I am exactly as I mentioned I am, a hobbling and aging 4.0 with all the shots and none of the shots.
Already have set a hitting day with Matt Lin. Can YOU say the same for yourself?

I would like to hit with Matt Lin.

Please film when you guys play. It will be TToatally Awesome.

LeeD, Charged the battery on my Canon T2i. Made space on the camera card. Hunted and found the tripod (I rarely use it). Don't have a wide angle lens. Just an old ultrasonic 28-80 mm lens from the Canon SLR that I bought in graduate school. Plan on shooting some footage later this evening when the indoor courts thin out, after the mens night that I go to is done. Hopefully I can get one of the guys that show up to shoot some footage with my iphone 5 as well. Created a tennis specific youtube account. Will try to figure out how to edit out the chaff and if everything goes well, will post something late in the night PST. I have seen countless videos of pros and others this past eight months while trying to get better. I am excited that I get to see mine now.

Cool, except all that is over my head.
I don't own a camera of any sort. Never owned video EQ, barely operate this computer.
I DO know, do NOT allow a living human to operate the camera. Instead, turn the camera ON, set it DOWN, never ever PAN the action.

bigservesofthands said:

I have seen countless videos of pros and others this past eight months while trying to get better. I am excited that I get to see mine now.

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Prepare yourself for disappointment. We all look like Federer in our heads, and then the harsh Carl Zeiss lens of reality brings the ego back to Earth.

LeeD said:

Except that LeeD has hit with President, Shroud, RobFl. all of whom have already said I am exactly as I mentioned I am, a hobbling and aging 4.0 with all the shots and none of the shots.
Already have set a hitting day with Matt Lin. Can YOU say the same for yourself?

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Huh? I was referring to your "delightful" forum banter, not who you've hit with. Context and self-awareness, man. Get some.:-?

Don't I post just like an aging, hobbled, old fart who's playing ability has been slipping for the past 30 years?

LeeD said:

Already have set a hitting day with Matt Lin. Can YOU say the same for yourself?

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Am I the only one who thinks hitting is completely crap and nothing to write home about? Virtually everyone I've ever met at courts can hit. Except for a very few and very good hitters, hitting is generally very boring and likely meaningless (in that you can't tell anything).

Playing sets is much better. Playing anything with rules and structure is always better.

Gotta be flexible when you go on court.
Some days, everyone shows and you gotta play doubles.
Some days, nobody shows and you're there by yourself.
Ever show up at the courts injured. Today I showed up, but after needing both hands to shave and brush my teeth, knew my rotator cuffs weren't up to tennis serves or overheads, so we just played bad doubles.
And what about the days when only 3 guys show up?
There is no need for Matt to post a vid, since he knows, as a strong 4.5, he will beat an old crippled 4.0. The vid is only for YOU guys, and me of course.

HotCarl, I am no Federer. I understand there will be a let down when I see the actual video. Especially all the form breaks. To me this is a journey of self improvement. It is good to be among birds of a feather who are on similar journeys.

Less than three and a half hours left. I put the odds that we'll see a video at no way.