Video of me playing 4.5 all court player

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LeeD

Bionic Poster
I use both high and low tosses, depending on feel and needs of the day.
I love serving into the morning sun, me lefty, which confounds everyone else on the courts. I use an extremely low toss, lots of fast slices, and a higher IN percentage.
But, it's fun to rear back and let one fly once in a while, so that is saved for serving with the sun at my back, when I can actually see where I tossed the ball.
I find, quick motion low toss favors a more aligned stance, and higher toss can have any stance.
 

Spin Doctor

Professional
Ya I don't know where a couple of these guys play that questioned if he is a legit 4.5 player or not, but it must be on another planet.

Actually I think it was just one person who questioned it, but he posted twice and has since disappeared, presumably in shame over his inaccurate assessment. I think everyone else agrees he is a solid 4.5 at minimum, probably higher in doubles. You did well just to get his serves back in play.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Actually I think it was just one person who questioned it, but he posted twice and has since disappeared, presumably in shame over his inaccurate assessment. I think everyone else agrees he is a solid 4.5 at minimum, probably higher in doubles. You did well just to get his serves back in play.

Yes he is at least 4.5. And Ya I know a lot of people suggested I need to return better which is true. But I am doing everything I can just to get his serve back in play.
 

ultradr

Legend
I've seen 4.5s with worse serves and 1 handed backhand than his.
But actual match toughness of 4.5, of course, is strictly by his match record in USTA. :)
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I've seen 4.5s with worse serves and 1 handed backhand than his.
But actual match toughness of 4.5, of course, is strictly by his match record in USTA. :)

Yes it is and this guy has played at Indian wells and many places all over the country in national tournaments.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Okay here is a forehand from match play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2vVPJ1oFS4

Looks like arming to me.

I think the tip off is what happens to your left arm. Look where it ends up. If you are using the core and not arming well I don't think the left arm ends up there or not as across your body as in the vid. But if you are arming then the left arm can end up there as a counterbalance.

Do you have another clip from a different angle that might be more conclusive?
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Looks like arming to me.

I think the tip off is what happens to your left arm. Look where it ends up. If you are using the core and not arming well I don't think the left arm ends up there or not as across your body as in the vid. But if you are arming then the left arm can end up there as a counterbalance.

Do you have another clip from a different angle that might be more conclusive?

Well maybe it is still arming the ball. Did you notice the way that shot came off the court? It gave by buddy a hard time and he misfired on it, that shot had some decent pop off the court. Not sure if it can be all arm and generate that much force.
 

President

Legend
Looks like arming to me.

I think the tip off is what happens to your left arm. Look where it ends up. If you are using the core and not arming well I don't think the left arm ends up there or not as across your body as in the vid. But if you are arming then the left arm can end up there as a counterbalance.

Do you have another clip from a different angle that might be more conclusive?

Didn't toly (seriously) discover that "arming" the ball actually produces the best results or something like that? I remember there was some controversy around his findings on the forum, but he is very well versed in biomechanical matters.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=491718&page=7
 
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tlm

G.O.A.T.
Didn't toly (seriously) discover that "arming" the ball actually produces the best results or something like that? I remember there was some controversy around his findings on the forum, but he is very well versed in biomechanical matters.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=491718&page=7

That's an interesting discussion, that's the first person that I have ever heard say that it is good to arm the ball. Wow toly might like my forehand. LOL
 

President

Legend
^I don't think you arm the ball as much as people are saying tlm, I am no biomechanics expert but I definitely see some rotation there. You get some good power into the ball too.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
^I don't think you arm the ball as much as people are saying tlm, I am no biomechanics expert but I definitely see some rotation there. You get some good power into the ball too.

That's what I thought to when I see my body rotate like it does on some of my shots, I am sure I am still arming to much but don't think it is all arm, but maybe I'm wrong.
 
On that arming debate: You do have shoulder rotation, but your problem is that your swing is not powered AT ALL by hips. You basically keep the upper body stiff, create the force with the upper body, and the hips and legs follow. But it should be the other way around: You should keep the body relaxed, and create most of the power from the big hip muscles.

TBH, "arming" is not the right word. Stupid word, but "shouldering" is what happens. So loosen up, and try to create almost all the power from the hips, like this: http://youtu.be/EMNtq393tvo
 

Merlin703

Rookie
On that arming debate: You do have shoulder rotation, but your problem is that your swing is not powered AT ALL by hips. You basically keep the upper body stiff, create the force with the upper body, and the hips and legs follow. But it should be the other way around: You should keep the body relaxed, and create most of the power from the big hip muscles.

TBH, "arming" is not the right word. Stupid word, but "shouldering" is what happens. So loosen up, and try to create almost all the power from the hips, like this: http://youtu.be/EMNtq393tvo

Rights, here is a exercise to loose those hips. He can do it before his match to ensure those hips are loose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSKPwueqBIk
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
On that arming debate: You do have shoulder rotation, but your problem is that your swing is not powered AT ALL by hips. You basically keep the upper body stiff, create the force with the upper body, and the hips and legs follow. But it should be the other way around: You should keep the body relaxed, and create most of the power from the big hip muscles.

TBH, "arming" is not the right word. Stupid word, but "shouldering" is what happens. So loosen up, and try to create almost all the power from the hips, like this: http://youtu.be/EMNtq393tvo

Here is a slow motion clip that looks like I am using the hips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhyHIVQewEw
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Hi Tlm, I wanted to give an example .....

As you can see my contact point is all bunched up because of late prep work. Having recognized this made me really focus on setting up earlier so as to give myself more time to relax and hit the ball cleaner and out in front.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtoWn-0Gmfw

you could say late prep given your current style, or you could look more at the ATP flip, which helps to not get caught as far back in your loop.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
"I could say late prep"?... I did say late prep.

My point was that there is more than one way to look at it. I disagree with your calling it late prep and would term it different. Imo the key is not the timing on your prep as much as the type of prep you used in the "late" version video.

Yes, I thought it was better in this video with cleaner technique.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
My point was that there is more than one way to look at it. I disagree with your calling it late prep and would term it different. Imo the key is not the timing on your prep as much as the type of prep you used in the "late" version video.

Yes, I thought it was better in this video with cleaner technique.

This was a discussion myself and Tlm were having (within his thread). Why am I on your radar? Were you just sitting around waiting for a video of me in order to jump on me?
What's next, your NTRP rating of me?
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
This was a discussion myself and Tlm were having (within his thread). Why am I on your radar? Were you just sitting around waiting for a video of me in order to jump on me?
What's next, your NTRP rating of me?

You are not on my radar and I'm not jumping on you, lol. This is a thread I'm interested in, so I commented....Politely I might add, unless you were reading it in a defensive mindset. I merely pointed out there are two ways to perceive the stroke prep you shared.

I thought both videos of you looked pretty good, and clearly good enough that I could only develop a NTRP opinion via your match play and results.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
No you are not! Check what initiates the rotation. It's shoulder, hips are just travelling along!

I would say hips tend to drive shoulder action, with some exceptions of course. Just because the shoulder is what you see mover first, does not mean it initiated it.
 
I would say hips tend to drive shoulder action, with some exceptions of course. Just because the shoulder is what you see mover first, does not mean it initiated it.

And check how hard he muscles the stroke with the shoulder. No chance of the power coming from hips.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
No you are not! Check what initiates the rotation. It's shoulder, hips are just travelling along!

just watched the slowmo video and I agree with torpan. The shoulders are totally driving the swing. The hips are turning slighter after. The hips should initiate the core rotation, slightly ahead of the upper body.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
I would say hips tend to drive shoulder action, with some exceptions of course. Just because the shoulder is what you see mover first, does not mean it initiated it.

how does that make any sense?

if you watch Tims slowmo video, you can clearly see that the hips are only turning because the shoulders are turning first. The "driver: is clearly the shoulder/arm. Not the hips.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
That's what I thought to when I see my body rotate like it does on some of my shots, I am sure I am still arming to much but don't think it is all arm, but maybe I'm wrong.

It's not only about the body rotating....it's about winding up the core like a rubber band and then uncoiling it and unwinding in the correct sequence. When done properly, you will get more power with less effort. If it feels to you like you are working hard and physically swinging hard, then it's not quite there yet.
 

mightyrick

Legend
It's not only about the body rotating....it's about winding up the core like a rubber band and then uncoiling it and unwinding in the correct sequence. When done properly, you will get more power with less effort. If it feels to you like you are working hard and physically swinging hard, then it's not quite there yet.

^ This +1^e+100

In all of his video threads, this is the absolute simplest and best suggestion given to tlm. If tlm simply activates the kinetic chain in the correct order, it should fix a ton of these issues. Hips first, then torso, shoulder, which pulls the arm.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
how does that make any sense?

if you watch Tims slowmo video, you can clearly see that the hips are only turning because the shoulders are turning first. The "driver: is clearly the shoulder/arm. Not the hips.

It doesn't make any sense, and that's the issue.
It's just a pathological need to argue about everything and anything, even if it makes no sense.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
how does that make any sense?

if you watch Tims slowmo video, you can clearly see that the hips are only turning because the shoulders are turning first. The "driver: is clearly the shoulder/arm. Not the hips.

I just watched it again Jack and I take a small step forward and it sure looks like my hips move before or at the same time as my shoulder. It does not appear that the shoulder is the driver. If anything the step forward looks like the driver, but I am not sure.
 
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monomer

Rookie
So far you have gotten advice to change almost all of your strokes, your equipment, and your strategy. Luckily you are only 22, have no job and can work on this for several hours a day. :)

I would approach this from the viewpoint of trying to maximize your results to be as competitive as possible at age 60, 65, 70, etc. You aren't going to like my suggestion, but what you really need is to start playing doubles. Not because you like doubles or want to become a great doubles player, but to improve your singles game against a player like this.

At the moment your game is completely 1-dimensional (me too so no offense intended). If you are only comfortable at the baseline hitting hard groundstrokes you have no chance against someone like this. Even a 4.0 with this type of game will make it miserable for you. You can take the advice of people here and completely rework your strokes, but a guy like this will just chip / slice you short balls and draw you to the net.

You have to be able to finesse the ball and have good volleys and overheads. I know you have mocked doubles in other threads and view it as tennis for old guys that can't move or play singles. That is the case for many but I'm guessing the guy that is running you all over the court here is an outstanding doubles player.

I am closer to your age and have the same issues as you. I have excellent fitness, movement and groundstrokes for my age. Once someone figures out to stop hitting hard shots that sit up, it gets tougher for me. If they can keep the ball low and get me to the net then my advantages are gone and my game becomes a big liability.

Maybe this won't work for you but you should really think things over before you decide to change all of your strokes, your strings, your racquet, etc.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
So far you have gotten advice to change almost all of your strokes, your equipment, and your strategy. Luckily you are only 22, have no job and can work on this for several hours a day. :)

I would approach this from the viewpoint of trying to maximize your results to be as competitive as possible at age 60, 65, 70, etc. You aren't going to like my suggestion, but what you really need is to start playing doubles. Not because you like doubles or want to become a great doubles player, but to improve your singles game against a player like this.

At the moment your game is completely 1-dimensional (me too so no offense intended). If you are only comfortable at the baseline hitting hard groundstrokes you have no chance against someone like this. Even a 4.0 with this type of game will make it miserable for you. You can take the advice of people here and completely rework your strokes, but a guy like this will just chip / slice you short balls and draw you to the net.

You have to be able to finesse the ball and have good volleys and overheads. I know you have mocked doubles in other threads and view it as tennis for old guys that can't move or play singles. That is the case for many but I'm guessing the guy that is running you all over the court here is an outstanding doubles player.

I am closer to your age and have the same issues as you. I have excellent fitness, movement and groundstrokes for my age. Once someone figures out to stop hitting hard shots that sit up, it gets tougher for me. If they can keep the ball low and get me to the net then my advantages are gone and my game becomes a big liability.

Maybe this won't work for you but you should really think things over before you decide to change all of your strokes, your strings, your racquet, etc.


I can compete fine at 4.0 because I have never seen a 4.0 that can play like the strong 4.5 guy in this video. I have opponents hit short and pull me in and I have no problem with that. I have had guys chip short shots and have worked on being able to attack them, so that does not work very well agains me.

The guy running me all over the court is closer to 5.0 than he is 4.5 so Ya he makes me look bad like he would 90% of the players here. As far as working on getting better at the net and volleying I agree that would help my game. And I do play more doubles than I used to so that is a good suggestion.
I am just a little older than 22 LOL and I do have a job and am working on improving but not changing everything.
 
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JackB1

G.O.A.T.
I just watched it again Jack and I take a small step forward and it sure looks like my hips move before or at the same time as my shoulder. It does not appear that the shoulder is the driver. If anything the step forward looks like the driver, but I am not sure.

Yes you step first, but what's key here is what is leading the way of the core rotation into the shot? Like I said before, it should feel to you like the hips are pulling everything else along for the ride and you shouldn't feel like you are working hard to swing.

Watch this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYtS0jAbW4U
It's a simple dril, but it really works. Also those 8-Boards are
great for learning to use your hips more. I actually have one
and it feels weird at first, but you can use it at home without
hitting balls and it teaches you balance and how to lead the
body with the hips.

More on the 8-board: Watch at :45 into this video.
I think this would help you a lot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-W1WWfI0eU
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
Well that's 5263's MO. He just argues to argue.

That is totally untrue. Just because I have a different opinion, there is no reason to make a rude comment like that. Maybe I'm wrong about the K-chain on some level, but in Martial Arts and every other level I've learned sports, power comes from the ground up. Could he be more efficient?? Sure, but Imo, he can't drive from the shoulders with it coming thru the core from the hips. Maybe I'll learn something new, but so far, I'm not buying what you guys are saying.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
That is totally untrue. Just because I have a different opinion, there is no reason to make a rude comment like that. Maybe I'm wrong about the K-chain on some level, but in Martial Arts and every other level I've learned sports, power comes from the ground up. Could he be more efficient?? Sure, but Imo, he can't drive from the shoulders with it coming thru the core from the hips. Maybe I'll learn something new, but so far, I'm not buying what you guys are saying.

It starts from the ground, if he was in a proper loaded position (which was what Tlm and me were discussing about early prep) and he were to push from his right leg (straightening his bent knee) it would push his right hip, rotating it forward slightly...and that would initiate and precede the core rotation and finally the shoulder turn, if the racquet arm has been stationary, up until this point it can't help but drag as all of that energy has been released, and finally, it too comes forward to meet the ball.
Pretty much the same thing in #262 that I posted on page 14.
 
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tennis_ocd

Hall of Fame
The guy running me all over the court is closer to 5.0 than he is 4.5 so Ya he makes me look bad like he would 90% of the players here.


Let's not get too carried away.... 4.5 and he doesn't look to be running you as much as feeding you.
 
Well regarding level, tlm's opponents seems better than the poster Maximaqq based on videos. Max claims he's a 5.0, so I don't see why tlm's opponent couldn't also be a 5.0, especially given he's not giving his all in the video.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Well regarding level, tlm's opponents seems better than the poster Maximaqq based on videos. Max claims he's a 5.0, so I don't see why tlm's opponent couldn't also be a 5.0, especially given he's not giving his all in the video.

Exactly he is being nice and playing more to my level. I have seen him at full throttle unlike some of the critics here and I would love to see these doubters face him and then see what they think.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Well maybe it is still arming the ball. Did you notice the way that shot came off the court? It gave by buddy a hard time and he misfired on it, that shot had some decent pop off the court. Not sure if it can be all arm and generate that much force.

My 2 cents it that its far too early to break out the party hats.

LeeD has many posts talking about the "Heavy Ball" that seem contrary to what we all seem to think of...which is a spin loaded ball. He talks about placement mostly iirc.

IMHO that video is a great example of what LeeD means. What is more of an issue for the opponent is the fact that you had excellent placement and because of where you hit it from, you robbed him of a bunch of time. That hurt him more than any kind of spin I think.

Said another way the vids I have seen the better players seem non-plussed by the spin, certainly this guy seems to handle your spin most of the time.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
My 2 cents it that its far too early to break out the party hats.

LeeD has many posts talking about the "Heavy Ball" that seem contrary to what we all seem to think of...which is a spin loaded ball. He talks about placement mostly iirc.

IMHO that video is a great example of what LeeD means. What is more of an issue for the opponent is the fact that you had excellent placement and because of where you hit it from, you robbed him of a bunch of time. That hurt him more than any kind of spin I think.

Said another way the vids I have seen the better players seem non-plussed by the spin, certainly this guy seems to handle your spin most of the time.


Yes he does handle my spin very well, he has excellent timing at taking the ball off the rise which can nullify topspin. Plus we play all the time so he is used to it.
That's just the point he does handle my shots well but this one had more pop off the court, not just spin but spin with power and he caught it late.
 

Maximagq

Banned
Well regarding level, tlm's opponents seems better than the poster Maximaqq based on videos. Max claims he's a 5.0, so I don't see why tlm's opponent couldn't also be a 5.0, especially given he's not giving his all in the video.

Just because a guy plays attacking tennis and looks good hitting winners doesn't mean he is better than Maximagq. Put Maximagq against a guy who hits short, attackable balls and see how the results play out. However, tlm's opponent is quite good, but not sure if he is Maximagq-level.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Yes he does handle my spin very well, he has excellent timing at taking the ball off the rise which can nullify topspin. Plus we play all the time so he is used to it.
That's just the point he does handle my shots well but this one had more pop off the court, not just spin but spin with power and he caught it late.

maybe, so hit like that more often:)

But IMHO "LATE" has everything in this case to do with the time you took from him by stepping up and placing it well taking his TIME away. See late is a time thing. Sure the pace and spin has something to do with it, but if you hit that same shot from the back court down the middle well he would have no problem...
 
Here is a slow motion clip that looks like I am using the hips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhyHIVQewEw

^ This +1^e+100

In all of his video threads, this is the absolute simplest and best suggestion given to tlm. If tlm simply activates the kinetic chain in the correct order, it should fix a ton of these issues. Hips first, then torso, shoulder, which pulls the arm.

Knee bend, where art thou?

Knee bend, kinetic chain, hip rotation, unit turn. Lots to be fixed.

And check the angle of hips and shoulders on that slowmo. Hips/shoulders are at level before the forward swing starts, and after that shoulders are always ahead of the hips. That 100% indicates no hip drive.

Hips should be ahead of the shoulders at the early stages of the forward swing, IF you use the hips at all to drive the stroke.
 
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