1970-1974 who was the best?
- Thread starter KG1965
- Start date
"Geist" means "ghost" in German...perhaps we are dealing with a ghost writer?
It may be Kenny the best .... I would be happy ....
Who is Poltergeist?
Another old "expert" ?
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Well, from 70-74, Ken won 3 slams, reached three other finals, won 2 WCT titles. As for the 72 AO, Newk did compete and lost to Mal Anderson in the semis. Newk won 3 slams, 1 WCT. Smith won 2 slams, 1 WCT. Laver won 0 slams, reached 0 slam finals, lost 2 WCT finals to you know who. Of course he did win several one night stand matches on the TCC tour.
However, slam = slam = slam = slam, is a myth.
Some slams are more important than others.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Newk's 3rd slam is is considerably worth more than Rosewall's 3rd -- AO 72, which was a depleted slam.
Also Laver was the best player in 70 by far.
If we're including AO 72, include AO 73 as well for Newk. So Newk has 4 slams.
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NATF, Your arrogance aand insulting skills are even greater than Rosewall's backhand.
Geist is right. Rosewall was the best in that period. See Flink's world comparisons. See Rosewall's great achievements in that time.
Please tell me and Geist which player had a better balance!
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Geist is at least a writer. You are even not able to write reasonable sentences...
thrust, You are right but Anderson beat Newcombe in the QFs.
NatF
Bionic Poster
I think Newcombe was the best.
NatF
Bionic Poster
If you include the AO 1972 for Rosewall you should include the AO 1973 for Newcombe. Newcombe's slam titles have to each be valued more highly than Rosewall's AO 1971 as well which didn't have the same status as Wimbledon or the USO. Newcombe was clearly the best IMO.
If you look at majors, Newombe comes high. For the overall play, you could also make a case for Nastase. In the Richard Evans book on Nastase, McCauley made the stats section. Overall he has probably the most tournament and match wins in that period. He didn't play the WCT circuit uintil 1974 however, but the Grand Prix circuit, but won two significant majors, Forest Hills 1972 and French open 1973, and 4 Masters till 1975.
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
The mustachioed master, John Newcombe, was the top player of this period.
Ilie Nastase second.
Not sure who would come third - there are a few contenders.
Ilie Nastase second.
Not sure who would come third - there are a few contenders.
Fact is though Newk did compete in the 72 AO, which Rosewall won. You are right that Newk has 4 slams to Ken's 3, but between 70-74 Ken was 35-39 years old. Ken though does have one more WCT in that period, so that when it comes to major wins they are even. Overall, I suppose Newk is #1, Ken- 2. In 70, Laver was best in the one night stands but nowhere in the slams, 70-74, and lost two WCT to Ken. Rosewall is ranked higher than Laver in 70 according to most experts, including Laver.Newk's 3rd slam is is considerably worth more than Rosewall's 3rd -- AO 72, which was a depleted slam.
Also Laver was the best player in 70 by far.
If we're including AO 72, include AO 73 as well for Newk. So Newk has 4 slams.
Though you may hate it, the Bud Collins Book shows that Rosewall out ranks Nastase in 70,71,72 and 74. During that period they only played once, in Cincinnati, which Rosewall won easily. During that period, Ken won 3 slams to Ille's 2. As for Grand Prix Masters, did Rosewall compete in that event? As for WCT, Ken won 2, Ille- 0 in that period.The mustachioed master, John Newcombe, was the top player of this period.
Ilie Nastase second.
Not sure who would come third - there are a few contenders.
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
I don't hate it.
Main thing is Newcombe's supremacy in the early 1970s. Recognised by all objective tennis historians.
I will concede that, but Newk was lucky that Ken was 35-39 during that period.I don't hate it.
Main thing is Newcombe's supremacy in the early 1970s. Recognised by all objective tennis historians.
thrust, Rosewall also has more big SFs than Newcombe plus has a positive balance against Newk in direct big confrontations. Thus a slight advantage for Muscles. Newcombe leads at tournament wins though.
thrust, Rosewall played in the 1970 Masters and finished third behind Smith and Laver.
jaggy
Talk Tennis Guru
All you need to know.
1970-1974:1- Newcombe,2- Rosewall, 3-4 Smith or Nastase.
Now going by the Richard Evans Book from 1978, Nastase won singles tournaments:
1970: 4
1971: 11
1972: 12
1973: 16
1974: 9
1975: 10
These are 62 singles titles in 6 years, 52 in 5 years 1970-1974. I doubt, that any other player won that amount of singles titles in this period. Maybe the number by Tennis Base now is eben higher.
1970: 4
1971: 11
1972: 12
1973: 16
1974: 9
1975: 10
These are 62 singles titles in 6 years, 52 in 5 years 1970-1974. I doubt, that any other player won that amount of singles titles in this period. Maybe the number by Tennis Base now is eben higher.
Ken was lucky that Newk was still developing in the late 1960's, and was tired at Wimbledon in 1974, and....and....
But of course, Ken never lost a tournament when he was healthy, only crippled by injury, everyone knows that.
Nastase won every two-bit tournament in that period....(yawn)
T
Pathetic and stupid statements, even by your standards. Newk was about 10 years younger than Rosewall, so in that you have taken great pleasure in trumping Newk's easy win over Rosewall in 71 after Ken had a very tough 5 set match the day before, it makes NO honest sense for you to complain that the much younger Newk was tired against a near 40 year old man. Also, in case you forgot we are talking about 70-74, not the late 60's in which Newk was already a two time slam champion. Again, I have already stated that Newcombe was, overall the best player in the 70-74 period, but not by as much as you probably think.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Laver won all of these tournaments in 1970. Only TCC consisted of one night stands.
29. 155. 2 February 1970 *Philadelphia Indoor Open WCT, Pennsylvania, U.S. (2) Carpet
Tony Roche (5) 6–3, 8–6, 6–2
30. 156. 16 March 1970 *Dunlop Slazenger International WCT, Sydney Carpet
Ken Rosewall (9) 3–6, 6–2, 3–6, 6–2, 6–3
31. 157. 30 March 1970 *South African Open, Johannesburg (2) Hard
Frew McMillan 4–6, 6–2, 6–1, 6–2
32. 158. 25 May 1970 *Rawlings Classic WCT, Saint Louis, Missouri, U.S. (2) Carpet
Ken Rosewall (10) 6–1, 6–4
33. 159. 15 June 1970 *Rothman's Open, Queen's Club, London (2) Grass
John Newcombe (5) 6–4, 6–3
34. 160. 16 July 1970 (final) Tennis Champions Classic, Madison Square Garden, New York (final) Indoor
Ken Rosewall (11) 6–4, 6–3, 6–3
35. 161. 29 July 1970 *First National Classic, Louisville, Kentucky, U.S. Clay
John Newcombe (6) 6–3, 6–3
36. 162. 10 August 1970 Bretton Woods (4 man), U.S. Clay
Roy Emerson (2) 6–3, 6–3
37. 163. 10 August 1970 *Rothman's Canadian Open, Toronto Clay
Roger Taylor (2) 6–0, 4–6, 6–3
38. 164. 17 August 1970 *National Invitation Tournament WCT, Fort Worth, Texas, U.S. (3) Hard
Roy Emerson (3) 6–3, 7–5
39. 165. 24 August 1970 *Marlboro Open, South Orange, New Jersey, U.S. (2) Grass
Bob Carmichael 6–4, 6–2, 6–2
40. 166. 21 September 1970 *Pepsi Pacific Southwest Open, Los Angeles, U.S. (2) Hard
John Newcombe (7) 4–6, 6–4, 7–6(7–5)
41. 167. 28 September 1970 *Rothman's International WCT, Vancouver, Canada Carpet
Roy Emerson (4) 6–2, 6–1, 6–2
42. 168. ?? October 1970 Invitational Round Robin (4-man), Berlin, Bonn, & Saarbrücken, West Germany Carpet
Tom Okker (finished 2nd) N/A
43. 169. 16 November 1970 *Embassy British Indoor Championships, Wembley Arena, London (5) Carpet
Cliff Richey 6–3, 6–4, 7–5
15 in total, many of these were important ones.
29. 155. 2 February 1970 *Philadelphia Indoor Open WCT, Pennsylvania, U.S. (2) Carpet
Tony Roche (5) 6–3, 8–6, 6–230. 156. 16 March 1970 *Dunlop Slazenger International WCT, Sydney Carpet
Ken Rosewall (9) 3–6, 6–2, 3–6, 6–2, 6–331. 157. 30 March 1970 *South African Open, Johannesburg (2) Hard
Frew McMillan 4–6, 6–2, 6–1, 6–232. 158. 25 May 1970 *Rawlings Classic WCT, Saint Louis, Missouri, U.S. (2) Carpet
Ken Rosewall (10) 6–1, 6–433. 159. 15 June 1970 *Rothman's Open, Queen's Club, London (2) Grass
John Newcombe (5) 6–4, 6–334. 160. 16 July 1970 (final) Tennis Champions Classic, Madison Square Garden, New York (final) Indoor
Ken Rosewall (11) 6–4, 6–3, 6–335. 161. 29 July 1970 *First National Classic, Louisville, Kentucky, U.S. Clay
John Newcombe (6) 6–3, 6–336. 162. 10 August 1970 Bretton Woods (4 man), U.S. Clay
Roy Emerson (2) 6–3, 6–337. 163. 10 August 1970 *Rothman's Canadian Open, Toronto Clay
Roger Taylor (2) 6–0, 4–6, 6–338. 164. 17 August 1970 *National Invitation Tournament WCT, Fort Worth, Texas, U.S. (3) Hard
Roy Emerson (3) 6–3, 7–539. 165. 24 August 1970 *Marlboro Open, South Orange, New Jersey, U.S. (2) Grass
Bob Carmichael 6–4, 6–2, 6–240. 166. 21 September 1970 *Pepsi Pacific Southwest Open, Los Angeles, U.S. (2) Hard
John Newcombe (7) 4–6, 6–4, 7–6(7–5)41. 167. 28 September 1970 *Rothman's International WCT, Vancouver, Canada Carpet
Roy Emerson (4) 6–2, 6–1, 6–242. 168. ?? October 1970 Invitational Round Robin (4-man), Berlin, Bonn, & Saarbrücken, West Germany Carpet
Tom Okker (finished 2nd) N/A43. 169. 16 November 1970 *Embassy British Indoor Championships, Wembley Arena, London (5) Carpet
Cliff Richey 6–3, 6–4, 7–515 in total, many of these were important ones.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Rosewall won only 6:
8 14 February 1970 Hollywood Pro Championships (United States) Clay
Andrés Gimeno 3–6, 6–2, 3–6, 7–6, 6–3
9 22 February 1970 Corpus Christi / WCT South Texas Pro (United States)2 Hard
John Newcombe 6–2, 6–0
10 19 June 1970 Eastbourne Rothmans Open (United Kingdom)2 Grass
Bob Hewitt 6–2, 6–1
11 10 July 1970 Newport Green Shield Welsh Open (United Kingdom)2 Grass
John Newcombe 6–4, 6–4
12 26 July 1970 Cincinnati Western Championships (United States)2 Clay
Cliff Richey 7–9, 9–7, 8–6
13 13 September 1970 U.S. Open, Forest Hills (United States)2 Grass
Tony Roche 2–6, 6–4, 7–6, 6–3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Rosewall_career_statistics
Newk won only 3 :
Winner 4. 1970 Casablanca WCT, Morocco Other
Andrés Gimeno 6–4, 6–4, 6–4
Winner 5. 1970 Wimbledon, London Grass
Ken Rosewall 5–7, 6–3, 6–3, 3–6, 6–1
Winner 6. 1970 Hoylake, U.K. Grass
Owen Davidson 4–6, 9–7, 6–4
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Newcombe_career_statistics
The one and only reason why Laver was not ranked #1 was because he under-performed at Wimbledon and USO, going out early.
Even if you penalize him more than what we have now (to keep in touch with the importance given to them at those times), given the rest of the year, there's no way Laver shouldn't be ranked #1 in 1970.
8 14 February 1970 Hollywood Pro Championships (United States) Clay
Andrés Gimeno 3–6, 6–2, 3–6, 7–6, 6–39 22 February 1970 Corpus Christi / WCT South Texas Pro (United States)2 Hard
John Newcombe 6–2, 6–010 19 June 1970 Eastbourne Rothmans Open (United Kingdom)2 Grass
Bob Hewitt 6–2, 6–111 10 July 1970 Newport Green Shield Welsh Open (United Kingdom)2 Grass
John Newcombe 6–4, 6–412 26 July 1970 Cincinnati Western Championships (United States)2 Clay
Cliff Richey 7–9, 9–7, 8–613 13 September 1970 U.S. Open, Forest Hills (United States)2 Grass
Tony Roche 2–6, 6–4, 7–6, 6–3https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Rosewall_career_statistics
Newk won only 3 :
Winner 4. 1970 Casablanca WCT, Morocco Other
Andrés Gimeno 6–4, 6–4, 6–4Winner 5. 1970 Wimbledon, London Grass
Ken Rosewall 5–7, 6–3, 6–3, 3–6, 6–1Winner 6. 1970 Hoylake, U.K. Grass
Owen Davidson 4–6, 9–7, 6–4https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Newcombe_career_statistics
The one and only reason why Laver was not ranked #1 was because he under-performed at Wimbledon and USO, going out early.
Even if you penalize him more than what we have now (to keep in touch with the importance given to them at those times), given the rest of the year, there's no way Laver shouldn't be ranked #1 in 1970.
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pc1
G.O.A.T.
And course if Newk didn’t go beer drinking late night and did not have major injuries...
Subjectively I felt Newk at his best was better than MANY all time greats. Kramer compared players like Rosewall, Connors, Vilas, Laver, Ashe, Borg among others and felt Newk was perhaps the most complete player of all of them. I would think Kramer was comparing of all them at their top levels.
I may not necessarily agree but it is something to be considered.
I felt Newk at his best was awesome.
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pc1
G.O.A.T.
This was in 1976 so I think the views were of 1975 so at that point I’d rank Newk as more complete than Borg. Peak Borg I would say no.
I’m honestly not sure Rosewall was more COMPLETE than Newk if you compare them at their best levels. The key element to me is that Newcombe had the far superior service. He also had clearly superior forehand but with a clearly inferior backhand. Ken was a superior mover but Newcombe had good anticipation.
The volleys were close and stamina I’d rank Newk as better.
Newk was in many ways similar to Sampras.
Of course for career Rosewall wins easily.
I’m think Kramer wasn’t saying Newk was the best player of that bunch but the one with the least weaknesses.
And yes Kramer did have odd views at times.
Of course, that's it, Ken was an exhausted old man whenever he lost in the early 70's, he was okay when he won, but every time Ken lost there was some special reason....I get it.
Lobb, YOU know nothing. But you do know that Newcombe was "tired" at Wimbledon...
thrust, I especially like your golden first sentence.
Of course there was no reason for Newcombe to be tired at Wimbledon. He won Dallas on May,12. Wimbledon was played at end-June/early July. Rosewall had a tough match in the round before their QF match (against Tanner) while Newcombe had a clear win over Van Dillen.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Maybe it was already a thread so ...
I do not remember.
... the first part of 70 years; the second part of 70 years (1975-1979) is easy: Borg.
70'-71' is easy, Laver.
72' - 74' Smith, Nastase, Newcombe, depending on the alignment of the stars, then Connors.
Rosewall won only 6:
8 14 February 1970 Hollywood Pro Championships (United States) Clay
9 22 February 1970 Corpus Christi / WCT South Texas Pro (United States)2 Hard
10 19 June 1970 Eastbourne Rothmans Open (United Kingdom)2 Grass
11 10 July 1970 Newport Green Shield Welsh Open (United Kingdom)2 Grass
12 26 July 1970 Cincinnati Western Championships (United States)2 Clay
13 13 September 1970 U.S. Open, Forest Hills (United States)2 Grass
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Rosewall_career_statistics
Newk won only 3 :
Winner 7. 1970 St. Louis WCT, U.S. Carpet
Winner 8. 1970 Wimbledon, London Grass
Winner 9. 1970 Louisville, U.S. Hard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Newcombe_career_statistics
The one and only reason why Laver was not ranked #1 was because he under-performed at Wimbledon and USO, going out early.
Even if you penalize him more than what we have now (to keep in touch with the importance given to them at those times), given the rest of the year, there's no way Laver shouldn't be ranked #1 in 1970.
abmk, I don't understand why you give us these lists. We know these statistics. (But your Newcombe stats are wrong!). I also don't understand your conclusion. Laver was not ranked among the top 2 by most experts because of his terrible performance when it mostly mattered.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
The question is not who was the best player from 70' - 74' for his age. The quesiton is, who was the best player.
Lobb, I must contradict a bit, alas! You NEVER get it! You never get anything! Please write about music!
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Limpin, You missed the point: The discussion is about the 1970-1974 PERIOD. Period.
abmk
Bionic Poster
and those experts were wrong for 1970.
apart from the 2 most important tournaments, Wimby and USO..Rod did so much better elsewhere than Rosewall and Newk, it wasn't even remotely close.
He's #1 clearly for 1970.
For a sensible ranking, you can penalize Laver heavily for those performances at Wimby and USO, but can't disqualify him. Even with a heavy penalty for under-performance in those 2 tournaments, he'd still be far and away #1 in 1970.
abmk
Bionic Poster
pc1
G.O.A.T.
Agree with you.
I will say that Newk’s return was very good but Rosewall had a clearly better return.
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pc1
G.O.A.T.
I guess I’m influenced when I’ve seen how solid Newk was in matches against peak Connors, young Borg, peak Ashe and Smith in watching him in person.
RacquetAbuse101
Semi-Pro
I agree with your views on Newcombe and the comparison with Sampras is a good one.
The video I have posted below is off-topic, except for this observation from the comm at 33:00.
"5-4 and this is where the champions can put the hammer down. I know, it has been said to me, that John Newcombe was probably the best player of all time to be able to close a match out, or close a set out."
Another thing Newk and Sampras had in common, arguably the most important one.
As I have explained many months ago, Laver could have won 39 tournaments (instead of 15) in 1970 and yet would most probably not have gotten the No.1 place by the experts. The method of ranking was as it was back then.
You have not corrected your wrong Newcombe stats.
abmk
Bionic Poster
You don't need to frickin' repeat it. I know it very well.
It was wrong to rate that way.
Learn to deal with it.
You think experts can never be wrong ?
Get over yourself.
big whoop, I hadn't logged into TennisBase.
Instead of going on about it, you could've given it yourself.
From TennisBase,
In 1970, Newk won Wimbledon and 3 other smaller tournaments - Victorian Open, Casablanca WCT and North Of England Championships.
Doesn't change the main point.
