Rules Question. For A Friend. Really.

Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
A friend texted me the following question:

"What's the call: I serve the ball, receiver calls it out as her partner calls it in. Does serve stand, is it second serve, what?"

I answered:

"They disagree, so it is your point. Exception is if it was a net cord. I don't know why they make that exception, but they do. Maybe it is because the ball was never in play?"

Having given advice whilst being waaaay too lazy to just go look it up, what is the correct answer per the rules?
 
OnTheLine

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Had that happen a few months ago in a league match (I played the part of receiver), my partner overruled me and we gave them the point.

(BTW it bothers me not at all to be overruled ... If I was wrong, I was wrong and I would prefer to be corrected as I still believe there is such a thing as True Fairness to aspire to)

Be curious to see if it was the right call ... I think so, but also too lazy ;)
 
esgee48

esgee48

G.O.A.T.
9. Either partner may make calls in doubles. Although either doubles partner may
make a call, the call of a player looking down a line is more likely to be accurate than that
of a player looking across a line.

14. Partners’ disagreement on calls. If one partner calls the ball out and the
other partner sees the ball good, the ball is good. It is more important to give
opponents the benefit of the doubt than to avoid possibly hurting a partner’s
feelings. The tactful way to achieve the desired result is to tell a partner quietly of
the mistake and then let the partner concede the point. If a call is changed from out
to good, the principles of Code § 12 apply.

25. Service calls in doubles. In doubles the receiver’s partner should call the
service line, and the receiver should call the sideline and the center service line.
Nonetheless, either partner may call a ball that either clearly sees.

You're both right. I try to adhere to Rule 25 so there is less drama, but I will overrule if I see it good and partner calls it out.

Regarding the Let exception: Ball is served and there is a Let call; then changed to Out Call; then partner says it was Good. Server gets 2 serves. Point has not started due to Let Call and subsequent disagreement re Good/Out.
 
M

Max G.

Legend
Cindysphinx said:
A friend texted me the following question:

"What's the call: I serve the ball, receiver calls it out as her partner calls it in. Does serve stand, is it second serve, what?"

I answered:

"They disagree, so it is your point. Exception is if it was a net cord. I don't know why they make that exception, but they do. Maybe it is because the ball was never in play?"

Having given advice whilst being waaaay too lazy to just go look it up, what is the correct answer per the rules?
Click to expand...

You gave the correct answer.

Since one person called it out, the point is over. Since the second opponent called it in, there's clearly doubt and so the ball is not out, it's considered in, so server gets the point since the receivers stopped play.

If the ball hits the net and lands in (where, as before, two partners disagreeing means it counts as in), it's a let. It's not really an exception...
 
T

TNT34

Rookie
There's an interesting variation of this question in Tennis magazine this month. In that case the receivers disagreed but not until after the returner had hit a return winner, so the receivers/returners won the point even though they disagreed.
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
TNT34 said:
There's an interesting variation of this question in Tennis magazine this month. In that case the receivers disagreed but not until after the returner had hit a return winner, so the receivers/returners won the point even though they disagreed.
Click to expand...

Well that would be true as long as they continued the point. In that case even the partner that saw the ball as "out" wasn't sure and did not make a prompt call. All calls are to be made promptly.

Cindysphinx said:
A friend texted me the following question:

"What's the call: I serve the ball, receiver calls it out as her partner calls it in. Does serve stand, is it second serve, what?"
Click to expand...

My question is: Who calls a ball in?

When I play doubles if I see a ball as "in" or "possibly in", I don't say anything. If my partner proceeds to call such a ball as "out", I will only disagree with them and award the point to the opposition if I clearly saw the ball as "in". If I wasn't sure, I will assume my partner was and defer to their judgement. If the opponents question me, I will simply say "I didn't see it clearly so I defer to my partner". Then the onus is back on the partner to be sure of their call. If they state it clearly was out, then our point.

Both partners do not have to agree on a call. They just can't disagree. One being certain and the other uncertain is not a disagreement.

TBH it's a rare thing to have one partner certain of "out" and the other certain of "in". More commonly you are both uncertain, and in that situation, call goes to the opponent.
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
kylebarendrick said:
"In" calls tend to get made on point ending shots (winners and aces).
Click to expand...

True. That doesn't happen often in my world of old guy serves. Usually the serve gets returned and the point gets played out or someone makes an "out" call. Rarely on a first serve do i here someone call "in" and someone else call "out".

Anyways bottom line is:
Partners are both certain of different things: Ball is in
One partner certain, Other unsure: Go with certainty
Both partners uncertain: Ball is in
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
OrangePower said:
Ha! I came to say this...

... and this!


Context of OP was on a serve at 3.5 ladies dubs, so ace is unlikely... so why would receiver's partner have made an 'in' call?
Click to expand...

Hey now. A 3.5 lady can ace a 3.5 lady. Happens now and then, especially since a lot of people try to smoke their first serve. Besides, it wouldn't have to be an ace. A tipped ball could also be a situation where one partner is calling it in and the other out.

I think what tends to happen is I will be at the service line and my partner is returning. Serve clips back of the line, so I say nothing. Partner misses return or gets aced and says out. I would immediately put my palm down. I wouldn't be "overruling my partner," I would be making a line call on a point-ending shot. If the opponents see this, so be it.

Also common in my world is I am playing with a new partner and she starts calling the service line when she is returning. Serve looks like it caught the back of the service line, but I am not 100% sure and would normally not make a call. But partner calls it deep. In that case I would not overrule (I am not 100% sure), but I know that my partner's belief that she should call the service line puts us at risk of having us disagree on a call. So I will tell her to call the center and side line and I will call the service line so we don't risk disagreeing on a close call.
 
OnTheLine

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
OrangePower said:
Ha! I came to say this...

... and this!


Context of OP was on a serve at 3.5 ladies dubs, so ace is unlikely... so why would receiver's partner have made an 'in' call?
Click to expand...

Ditto-ing Cindy here .... Hey Now! ... yes, there are aces, especially a hard flat serve to the T when you have changed up from hitting body or wide shots the rest of the service game. I expect to serve a minimum of 2 aces per match in dubs, more in singles at "ladies' 3.5". FWIW, in mixed I can get at least one per match, even against you men-folk.

As receiver it can be hard to call those balls near the service line or near the T ... usually I am thinking they are good when in fact they are out. I fear in singles, I play a lot of out serves ...

Cindy, I agree with you fully in dubs ... have non-receiving partner call that service line!
 
OrangePower

OrangePower

Legend
Cindysphinx said:
Hey now. A 3.5 lady can ace a 3.5 lady. Happens now and then, especially since a lot of people try to smoke their first serve.
Click to expand...

OnTheLine said:
Ditto-ing Cindy here .... Hey Now! ... yes, there are aces, especially a hard flat serve to the T when you have changed up from hitting body or wide shots the rest of the service game. I expect to serve a minimum of 2 aces per match in dubs, more in singles at "ladies' 3.5". FWIW, in mixed I can get at least one per match, even against you men-folk.
Click to expand...

Ok, I stand corrected.
In 4.5 men's dubs I only see about 3 or 4 aces total a set (across all 4 players), and was assuming there would be even less in ladies 3.5.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I would say I get about one ace per doubles match. I am 5'4" and Of A Certain Age, so I can't easily overpower most ladies. They've often seen much more pace in mixed.

What I can do is hit slice, which messes up some people. It's all or nothing, though. Either my slice bothers them not at all, or it bothers them *a lot.* For the latter group, I can rack up a lot of unreturned (or very poorly returned) serves.

Funny. That one ace will get "oohs" and "ahhs" from my partners, but the many shanked returns barely get a notice.
 
OnTheLine

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Cindysphinx said:
Funny. That one ace will get "oohs" and "ahhs" from my partners, but the many shanked returns barely get a notice.
Click to expand...

I have a few partners (who I really love!) who are more impressed with the shanked returns or the serve that sets up the pop-up for their overhead, and tend to say "thank you that set me up perfectly".

In terms of messing with someone's head or throwing people off their game, I think the shanked return does more damage. They blame that on themselves, rather than an ace which is just "too good".
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
OrangePower said:
Ok, I stand corrected.
In 4.5 men's dubs I only see about 3 or 4 aces total a set (across all 4 players), and was assuming there would be even less in ladies 3.5.
Click to expand...

I play men's 3.5 and see about one ace a set. I've played a lot of 3.5 mixed and have never seen a lady ace another lady unless they hit one of those weird shanked serves that lands short and wide.
 
OrangePower

OrangePower

Legend
Dartagnan64 said:
I play men's 3.5 and see about one ace a set. I've played a lot of 3.5 mixed and have never seen a lady ace another lady unless they hit one of those weird shanked serves that lands short and wide.
Click to expand...
Yeah that was kinda my expectation, but since Cindysphinx and OnTheLine both actually play 3.5 ladies, I defer to them.
It's not just about the quality of the serve but also the abilities of the returner (reflexes, agility, mobility, etc), so maybe it all evens out.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Dartagnan64 said:
I play men's 3.5 and see about one ace a set. I've played a lot of 3.5 mixed and have never seen a lady ace another lady unless they hit one of those weird shanked serves that lands short and wide.
Click to expand...
Um. Some of us can hit short and wide (topspin slice) serves without shanking. It has more to do with my receiver misjudging the ball badly than my Mad Serving Skillz.

I think some men hear the word "ace" and think about speed only. In fact, the receiver has something to do with whether they get aced. If a receiver is cheating toward the middle on the deuce court to protect a weak BH (or use a FH weapon), a decent sliced wide serve can ace them.

Also, a lot of 3.5 women aren't experienced with spin serves and do not move closer to the service line to cut off the serve. These ladies can be aced with a good slice serve.

FWIW, I also play socially in mixed. One guy is 3.5, and the other two are 4.0s. The 3.5 guy has a hard flat serve for first; a push for second. He gets aces off of the 4.0 guys from time to time, so I am surprised that the 3.5 male servers Dartagnan sees cannot ace their peers.

Anyway, for purposes of this discussion, whether 3.5 guys can ace one another doesn't tell us much about whether 3.5 women can ace each other. I assure you, they do.
 
AlxThm

AlxThm

Rookie
I think the one who's returning the serve has the last call on that one even if the partner suggested that the ball was in or visceversa
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Cindysphinx said:
Um. Some of us can hit short and wide (topspin slice) serves without shanking. It has more to do with my receiver misjudging the ball badly than my Mad Serving Skillz.

I think some men hear the word "ace" and think about speed only. In fact, the receiver has something to do with whether they get aced. If a receiver is cheating toward the middle on the deuce court to protect a weak BH (or use a FH weapon), a decent sliced wide serve can ace them.

Also, a lot of 3.5 women aren't experienced with spin serves and do not move closer to the service line to cut off the serve. These ladies can be aced with a good slice serve.

FWIW, I also play socially in mixed. One guy is 3.5, and the other two are 4.0s. The 3.5 guy has a hard flat serve for first; a push for second. He gets aces off of the 4.0 guys from time to time, so I am surprised that the 3.5 male servers Dartagnan sees cannot ace their peers.

Anyway, for purposes of this discussion, whether 3.5 guys can ace one another doesn't tell us much about whether 3.5 women can ace each other. I assure you, they do.
Click to expand...

Not so much that I don't see aces, it's that I don't see them that much.

Most of the hard fast servers in male 3.5 serve to the middle of the box. If they could place their serves reliably to the corners, they'd a) get more aces and b) be moved up to 4.0. Additionally all the 3.5 guys at our club kind of know each other so everyone knows the serve tendencies and sets up appropriately for returns.
And finally, I play a lot on clay which makes aces a lot harder unless you hit the lines dead on.

It's a lot easier to get service winners than outright aces. Most guys are quick enough to get a racket on something if they've set up properly.

I play against and with a lot of 3.5 women in mixed dubs at the club. Really rare to see an outright ace from any of the women on anything but a shanked or drop serve. I'm racking my brain right now and can't recall even a single instance. Definitely seen the 3.5 men ace the women, somewhat apologetically.
 
OnTheLine

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Startzel said:
Those are offset by the increased speed of the men's game.

The biggest difference I see between the genders is the reaction time.
Click to expand...

Possible but in reflex volley work, I see women performing a little better than men in mixed clinics at the 3.5-4.0 level, that is all I have to judge on in adult rec land ... prime Pro world, you may be right. .... but if I could have another 5" of reach (from 5'7" to 6'), I think that would make an insane difference.

Nearly very ace I get is from the same scenario: hard serve to the T after I had been feeding them wide or body shots until then. If anyone figured out my pattern i wouldn't get the ace, or would have to change my pattern .... If I go a match without getting at least 2 aces, I feel a little like a failure even if I win the match.

I think the other key difference is that it appears to me as though men practice their serves regularly (religiously?) and women, a lot of them, just don't or even don't care.
 
S

Startzel

Hall of Fame
OnTheLine said:
Possible but in reflex volley work, I see women performing a little better than men in mixed clinics at the 3.5-4.0 level, that is all I have to judge on in adult rec land ... prime Pro world, you may be right. .... but if I could have another 5" of reach (from 5'7" to 6'), I think that would make an insane difference.

Nearly very ace I get is from the same scenario: hard serve to the T after I had been feeding them wide or body shots until then. If anyone figured out my pattern i wouldn't get the ace, or would have to change my pattern .... If I go a match without getting at least 2 aces, I feel a little like a failure even if I win the match.

I think the other key difference is that it appears to me as though men practice their serves regularly (religiously?) and women, a lot of them, just don't or even don't care.
Click to expand...

I find the reflex volley thing hard to believe. Maybe it’s women are more likely to take clinics so they have more practice at the drill?

I don’t know many men at the 3.5/4.0 level that take lessons/clinics or practice much. They mostly just play. So I would doubt more service practice is the reason.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Yes, if you are playing on clay and I am playing on hard courts smoothed out by non-stop use by county rec players, you will see far fewer aces than I do. I don't play on clay that much, but I don't get aced as much on that surface (but I get destroyed by the spin and height of the bounce, sadly).

In my experience -- if we are going to compare the genders -- women tend to be better at doubles positioning and "reflex volleying" like OnTheLine suggests and probably have more "book learning" about doubles (like, I don't meet many 3.5 guys who are experienced at things like Aussie formation, but I do run into 3.5 woman who are). This is because women take more instruction than men at the rec level based on what I have seen. There's plenty of awful volley technique to go around though, for both genders.

But the men *think* they are positioning correctly. So they're happy . . . :)
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Cindysphinx said:
Yes, if you are playing on clay and I am playing on hard courts smoothed out by non-stop use by county rec players, you will see far fewer aces than I do. I don't play on clay that much, but I don't get aced as much on that surface (but I get destroyed by the spin and height of the bounce, sadly).

In my experience -- if we are going to compare the genders -- women tend to be better at doubles positioning and "reflex volleying" like OnTheLine suggests and probably have more "book learning" about doubles (like, I don't meet many 3.5 guys who are experienced at things like Aussie formation, but I do run into 3.5 woman who are). This is because women take more instruction than men at the rec level based on what I have seen. There's plenty of awful volley technique to go around though, for both genders.

But the men *think* they are positioning correctly. So they're happy . . . :)
Click to expand...

At our club there is a ton of awful positioning from both genders. Women tend to get set up right but often move poorly, getting too often stuck on the service line, setting up to swing volley at slow paced shots. They become prey for dipping topspin shots that they rarely see in ladies dubs but are a main weapon in men's dubs. Men tend to crowd the net too much, avoiding the dipper and hoping for the smash, only to get nailed in the chest or lobbed.

But I'd definitely agree that women seek coaching more than men. I just wish it would stick a bit better. It's all well and good to know positioning and strategy, but if you don't move your feet, it's all for naught.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Ha!! So true. You don't get points in tennis for knowledge.

BeyondTheTape, yes, I am definitely posting much more than I did last year. I didn't play league at all after around March of last year, so I didn't have a whole lot to say.

I will say that our discussions at TT have helped make tennis interesting again. There are definitely some fun and clever people here, like S&V, Jolly, and OnTheLine. And you, BeyondTheTape!! :)
 
OnTheLine

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Cindysphinx said:
Ha!! So true. You don't get points in tennis for knowledge.

BeyondTheTape, yes, I am definitely posting much more than I did last year. I didn't play league at all after around March of last year, so I didn't have a whole lot to say.

I will say that our discussions at TT have helped make tennis interesting again. There are definitely some fun and clever people here, like S&V, Jolly, and OnTheLine. And you, BeyondTheTape!! :)
Click to expand...


Yes!! Fun AND Clever! After a long week, totally needed that! :D
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
kevrol said:
Actually not true. If you know the rules better than your opponent you can claim quite a few points.
Click to expand...

That is true. I recall claiming a free point when my partner's first serve flew wild and hit the opposing team's net player on the fly. He didn't realize that it was our point and I had to show him the rule after the match before he stopped whining about us taking the point.
 
OnTheLine

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Dartagnan64 said:
That is true. I recall claiming a free point when my partner's first serve flew wild and hit the opposing team's net player on the fly. He didn't realize that it was our point and I had to show him the rule after the match before he stopped whining about us taking the point.
Click to expand...

I nailed the net player with my serve last week. I refused to take the point ... knew the rule, just didn't feel like being a ninny.

Hit an unreturnable 2nd serve so got the point no matter what, as I knew I would ... I was serving well that day and they could not return it to save their lives.
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
OnTheLine said:
I nailed the net player with my serve last week. I refused to take the point ... knew the rule, just didn't feel like being a ninny.

Hit an unreturnable 2nd serve so got the point no matter what, as I knew I would ... I was serving well that day and they could not return it to save their lives.
Click to expand...

I take the point as a lesson to the receiver's partner to stay sharp. Unless the person is less likely to invite me for beers because of it. Then I'll keep my mouth shut.
 
OnTheLine

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Dartagnan64 said:
I take the point as a lesson to the receiver's partner to stay sharp. Unless the person is less likely to invite me for beers because of it. Then I'll keep my mouth shut.
Click to expand...

Ladies' league ... they are upset enough that you hit them, then taking point on top ... suddenly everything within a foot of a line is "out" for the rest of the match!
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
OnTheLine said:
Ladies' league ... they are upset enough that you hit them, then taking point on top ... suddenly everything within a foot of a line is "out" for the rest of the match!
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the funny thing about ladies leagues. The assumption that if you get hit, it's the opponents fault. If I get hit in men's league, it's my fault or my partner's fault. Either he put up a lame duck or I didn't pay enough attention to turn away or bail.

Women on the other hand will get into screaming matches over being hit. And of course the women that take the greatest offence are the ones that never try to get out of the way. They just stand there as you wind up for a smash. It's quite disconcerting in mixed doubles.
 
OnTheLine

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Dartagnan64 said:
Yeah, that's the funny thing about ladies leagues. The assumption that if you get hit, it's the opponents fault. If I get hit in men's league, it's my fault or my partner's fault. Either he put up a lame duck or I didn't pay enough attention to turn away or bail.

Women on the other hand will get into screaming matches over being hit. And of course the women that take the greatest offence are the ones that never try to get out of the way. They just stand there as you wind up for a smash. It's quite disconcerting in mixed doubles.
Click to expand...

Or worse, they scream as you are hitting that smash ... don't get it at all.

And yes, my fault if I get hit with all but the rarest of instances.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Dartagnan64 said:
Yeah, that's the funny thing about ladies leagues. The assumption that if you get hit, it's the opponents fault. If I get hit in men's league, it's my fault or my partner's fault. Either he put up a lame duck or I didn't pay enough attention to turn away or bail.

Women on the other hand will get into screaming matches over being hit. And of course the women that take the greatest offence are the ones that never try to get out of the way. They just stand there as you wind up for a smash. It's quite disconcerting in mixed doubles.
Click to expand...

Maybe that author can write a sequel entitled *Women Are From Wimbledon, Men Are From Melbourne* [no offense to either locale; just trying to work the alliteration angle].
 
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