Does anyone here love volleying in doubles?
- Thread starter user92626
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MyFearHand
Professional
Yes I love volleying in doubles and whenever I can in singles. I don't understand why people love the baseline so much in doubles, you get so many free points off of the return just by serving and volleying. 1/4 the time I don't even have to hit a first volley and another 10% end after that first volley.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
That's because you CAN perform the volley whereas other players literally cannot. I know a few who can't even hit the ball with continental grip let alone anything else.
Volleying is a very special skill. I have a feeling mine is very underrated by my peers bc they have played with me since the day I didn't know how. Now I kinda love the volley.
Do you or anyone else think you have a special "trick" or cue or trigger that helps you to volley so well?
My challenge is I dread miss-seeing the ball and miss-hitting it. If that happens a lot, I'll feel lost on what to do.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Volleys are the most fun doubles has to offer. It's what sets it apart from singles. I love poaching and volleying to open court. Very satisfying. Winning volley wars at the net is also great fun. You don't get that in singles play.
i rarely serve and volley but rather serve and let my net partner volley. I have too many opponents that lob returns back, that I always stay back initially and then if they hit a good CC return, I'll take my CC deep and come in off that. I'm more likely to chip and charge a second serve return.
i rarely serve and volley but rather serve and let my net partner volley. I have too many opponents that lob returns back, that I always stay back initially and then if they hit a good CC return, I'll take my CC deep and come in off that. I'm more likely to chip and charge a second serve return.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
The more you practice, the better you get.
The better you get, the more enjoyable it becomes.
The more enjoyable it becomes, the more likely you are to practice it.
It's self-reinforcing, in both directions.
People also stick to their comfort zone; if they are extremely uncomfortable at the net, they will avoid it like the plague.
What's the likelihood you'll be able to convince them otherwise? Between Slim and None and Slim has left town.
I don't consider it a "very special" skill; it's a skill like any other. Some people have a knack for it; others don't. There are plenty of drills that can help improve the skill.
Reaction time plays a much bigger role, though, than for most shots, even the service return. That loss of 30+ feet makes a huge difference.
I think it is more frequently mangled than most shots, mainly because people try to do too much and think that every volley must be put away.
I try to say loose, even if I can see that the BL guy is about to unload right at me. Other than that, it's the standard stuff: don't overswing, keep the racquet somewhat out in front [I tend to favor the BH since that will cover all of the body volleys], and expect the ball might come back.
I've also been told that I keep my eye on the contact point better than most even though I don't consciously try to do this.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I actually got into a volley exchange playing singles the other day because I C&Cd when my opponent S&Vd.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I used to dislike volleying mainly because I was very successful with the ground strokes. I wasn't good at volleying.
But I changed. I accepted that dubs will always be our main staple. I forced myself to like it.
It's been taking me a loooooong time to make progress on the volley. There's no eureka moment. It's only tiny incremental improvement.
Today I feel very comfortable and even loving the volley. I really like a partner who runs up too. With two at the net somehow it feels very easy for me to volley.
But I changed. I accepted that dubs will always be our main staple. I forced myself to like it.
It's been taking me a loooooong time to make progress on the volley. There's no eureka moment. It's only tiny incremental improvement.
Today I feel very comfortable and even loving the volley. I really like a partner who runs up too. With two at the net somehow it feels very easy for me to volley.
I've had a bit of trouble poaching in the past, I think because I didn't go early enough and I'm not dynamic enough off the mark to go late. I also read Kathleen Krajco's "Operation doubles" and she seemed to really advocate hitting to "the hole" or the angular gap between the opposing up and back player, when you poach the return of serve. So I was too predictable as to where I was going to volley when I did poach and consequently had trouble putting the ball away, which in turn made me hesitant to poach, which often made me half go/go late. So I guess it was a bit of a vicious circle/cycle. I probably misinterpreted what Krajco was saying and/or didn't read the fine print, as sometimes there is no angular gap if you have to go far enough across and the returner's partner is central and relatively deep on the service line. The penny dropped for me when I read her section on how to beat the "both up" formation with the "both back" formation- she outlined the 5 lethal returns running forward from the both back formation to deal with an angled volley that a player from the both up formation has failed to put away. The diagrams clearly illustrated that as the both up players covered one option it always opened up another. This made me realise that creativity and unpredictability were also the key when poaching. The angular gap is a high percentage option when it's available, so you try to open that option up for the big points, by using a variety of other options when you can afford to lose a point.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Even simpler than aiming for a gap that may or may not exist by the time you contact the ball is to aim at the opposing net man.
I think the gap is a much better place to aim when you fake poach and remain roughly where you started or if the returner tries to go DTL. The closer to the alley you are, the bigger the gap will be.
MyFearHand
Professional
The biggest thing for me is just making sure everything stays very compact. Mistakes start happening when I'm trying to do too much with my hands and not enough with my feet.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Interesting. So, you're not worried about mis-reaching, mis-timing your volley, or poaching? That area (timing, reaching) is already very good, so all you have to do is focusing on having compact mechanics?
For me, if I can "catch up" to the ball, ie having it within reach, seeing it fairly well, I can volley it 10 different ways! Meaning, sometimes my motion can be compact, sometimes it can be long or whatever. It's not necessarily one way.
I agree, most of the time this is a very good option, however when the opposing net player has really good reflexes and good hands and if they're far enough back to have time to react then I'd say it isn't the best option.
Yeah it's definitely, more often than not, the place to aim in that situation.. For me it's a matter of setting this fake poach up by poaching more effectively/often prior to it.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
That's exactly the thought process i have.
Always thinking when it is good to jump in. And when i rally fr baseline, i wonder why my partner is so inactive!!!
I think how it should be is.... by default you always instinctively set yourself in motion. U only stop short of contacting the ball when it's out of reach. Again, by default you move, you slightly initiate the volleying form.
fuzz nation
G.O.A.T.
Story of my life as a high school coach. Need a crowbar to pry some of those kids away from the baseline.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Played a lot of competitive badminton in the 1980s. When I got back to competing in tennis in the late 80s, my ground strokes had atrophied but my volleys & overheads were fully intact. My game was serve and volley. And return and volley. For both singles and doubles. Spent as little time at the baseline as possible.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
It is, assuming the first premise is correct. I wonder what percentage of recreational players fail to meet premise 1 after they've gone through an initial learning curve?
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Same with me except my "other mistress" was volleyball.
bitcoinoperated
Professional
No doubles is boring af
Slowtwitcher
Legend
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
You're not doing it right. A lot of "singles" players don't really play it properly. Doubles play often requires quicker RT / reflexes.
Some ppl play it too statically -- esp at the net. A good net player should always be on the move -- left and right to follow the outgoing ball placement. Forward (offensive) and back (defense position, often while your partner is hitting). Poaching. Faking. Etc.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
6-man or doubs? Surface? Specialty?
I played recreationally a fair amount in the 1970s -- before I discovered badminton (and racquetball). Went back to school, Cal Poly SLO, at the start of the 80s. It was primarily a California school. Close to 40% from NorCal (esp the SF Bay Area) and another 40% from SoCal. There were so many good players there from SoCal, I felt like a novice (low int, at best). Started learning some real vball technique at that time.
Moved back to the Bay Area in the late 80s and started to take vball more seriously with more (community) college classes and open gyms. They refused to teach us how to dive in those classes so I had to teach myself.
Played mostly 6-man but also loved 4-man. Some triples or 2-man (indoors and outdoors) as well. Blocking was my best skill. Altho, I was not a stellar setter, I loved playing as a back-row setter (6-2 formation).
Occasionally played on sand but usually played on grass when playing outdoors. Played 6-man and 2-man grass tournaments.
In the early 90s, I had messed up my left shoulder so much, I switched to hitting right-handed (but still served primarily left-handed).
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Great showcase for the dynamic nature, constant movement, of doubs. Should be able to see the greater need for quick hands (and legs) in this kind of play. Even in solid (or high) intermediate levels, you'll see a lot of these elements.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
As someone who used to have **** volleys and slowly got better at it by playing doubles twice a week, my volleys are actually very good now and I love poaching and fading left-right / forward-back. Still need to work on drop volleys (need to stop thinking about trying to hit drop volleys and just think about catching the ball with my racquet, which gets the job done almost perfectly every time). Overheads are almost on point every time as well.
My only issue is that I have difficulty integrating this into my singles game.
My only issue is that I have difficulty integrating this into my singles game.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
That is a big part of what I love about dubs, is the fast, creative action of volley work. I wish I was better, but I do have my moments.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
As with anything, when you have more success you'll love it. Everybody loves winning and success.
I think it helps a lot in volleying if you can stay aggressive in your actions and feeling confident against perceived partner's scrutiny. Whether right or wrong, if you let your partner's feeling gets to you, you'll likely fail.
I think it helps a lot in volleying if you can stay aggressive in your actions and feeling confident against perceived partner's scrutiny. Whether right or wrong, if you let your partner's feeling gets to you, you'll likely fail.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Open gym was mainly doubles. Intramurals was 6-man. I usually set. All indoors.
League was co-ed 6. Played some grass dubs; rarely played sand - too darned hard to move and jump.
Played USVBA Nationals multiple years [anyone could join].
Got to play against some members of the US Olympic "B" team. Those guys don't know when to turn off their competitiveness: we're a decent rec team, they're near-Olympic caliber, and their MB is trying to shield us from seeing the server. I mean, come on!
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socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I would assume that if a player likes doubles, they would probably like volleying as it is hard to win in doubles without volleying. Are there any players out there who like doubles, but don’t like volleying?
If someone does not like volleying, they probably don’t like doubles and are mostly singles players.
If someone does not like volleying, they probably don’t like doubles and are mostly singles players.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Everything you think or assume is not necessarily true at all. There are probably those players like you describe.
However, I play with sooo many players who defy your thinking and assumption. Many older men and younger guys my age and women I know strictly stick to doubles and they can't volley at all. Their inability to hit a volley is so much that if you pull them to the net and hit the ball directly at them, you'll win the point. But they continue to come out every weekend so they do like doubles. I literally cannot find a single person to play singles with. Everyone has some sort of reason not to play.
How they handle doubles without volleying is they stay back at the baseline.
And how they win in doubles is they choose (or eventually find) the appropriate (or worse) level to play in. In rec, you can always find the right level to play. And there's no one correct definition of "right level" in recreational. Some people enjoy one-shot points and 6-0 score and think they're playing right. I know some.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I doubt that. Many people specifically choose dubs over singles to avoid vigorous exercise. For these people, they don't even bother to hide that fact.Doubles is popular because of the illusion it is vigorous physical exercise
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Do they play 2-back formations all the time? So, they are at the baseline even when their partner is serving or returning? I haven’t seen that too often in rec tennis unless an opponent has a 100+ mph serve and the returner is not able to get any return past the net guy in which case his partner plays 2-back so that he doesn’t get killed at the net.
Most often if both players don’t come to net quickly, I see 1-back formations and if the net guy can’t volley well, the opponents will direct many shots at him and his volley errors result in his team losing badly. Maybe, you are talking about a level that I don’t get to see if a bad volleyer can win often and enjoy doubles.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I play with this group of 8, 10 players twice a week. Only me and two other guys volley. Only me play the net sincerely, meaning I can't wait to get there and stay there, and try to find way to win points there.
The other two guys play it half baked. They start their positions at the net and either retreat to the baseline as soon as there's movement or stand still watching the rally or waiting for a ball accidentally coming their way.
The rest of the group play at the baseline.
Whether people play the net or not, or play it badly, they somehow can still play and enjoy rec tennis just fine. In this group I play the net best and although I win many more times than I lose, winning is still not easy because I play the net. They tend to assign me the weakest player.
Another thing, doubles is a team game. Your sole merits don't necessarily shine. You still need your partner's understanding and cooperation. Two players knowing each other well, gelling better with each other , both playing at the baseline is much better than two unknown strangers teaming up even if their individual skills are better. That's just the way doubles is.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Why don’t the baseliners hit most of their shots hard at the net guy if they are bad at volleying? Wouldn’t it be easier to win points rather than winning baseline rallies against similar level players?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
The players that are bad at volleying don't come to the net to get hit and lose point like you ask.
I don't know what makes you think volleying is always better than ground stroking to win points for a particular player. In a same level sometimes you get someone who's better at volleying than baseline ground stroking and other times you get the opposite or something in between.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
You wrote "They start their positions at the net...". If they are bad volleyers, I would think they would start at the BL.
That statement is more applicable to singles where you don't get a free pass to start at the net.
In doubles, you have that option and it makes sense to use it because it's way easier to hit a winner when you're 5-10' from the net than when you're 39' away.
Of course, as you point out, you have to balance this against the person's volleying skills. I just think the balance point isn't the same with doubles vs singles. I'm willing to take someone who might not come to the net much in singles and plant him near the net and tell him to attack anything that looks attackable [as long as he was copacetic].
user92626
G.O.A.T.
That's rational thinking. Rational thinkers don't usually get bad. Irrational thinkers do. Hence, they're bad.
Sure, IF you can do it.
Funny, I find it's very easy to play games and matches -- they are fun and full of drama -- but there are people avoiding games. They rather rally in the loosest manner.
Also, do you have a lot of success telling people what to do? I don't.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I think me and my doubles buddies had the worlds worst volleying performance this weekend. Rarely you have all 4 players uniformly blow easy volley after easy volley. It became comical after a while. Wish I had video.
still love volleying but we were all swearing at our rackets after the match.
still love volleying but we were all swearing at our rackets after the match.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Was it cold and humid? In those conditions, the ball travels very slow and racquet head speed (RHS) slows down. This messes up timing on volleys as you have to wait a bit longer for the ball and it also makes it harder to put away volley winners which makes players try too hard and miss due to the added stress. The slow conditions also make it easier for baseliners to hit harder shots and change their shot late to hit alley-shots DTL. In these conditions, I feel like serves are also neutralized more and the balance switches a bit more in favor of 1-back or 2-back formations rather than aggressive net play. I don’t like playing doubles on rainy, windy winter nights when it is cold and humid.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Absolutely love it. After playing competitive badminton for much of the 1980s, my tennis groundstrokes had atrophied. Or, at least, they had deteriorated. However, my volleys, overheads and serve for all pretty much still intact -- since badminton incorporates strokes (drives, pushes, etc) that are similar to tennis volleys. And more than half of badminton is overhead strokes. So you got a ton of practice there. But it has nothing that is similar to a tennis ground stroke.
In the late '80s and early '90s, I came to the net whether I served or I returned. I avoided engaging in baseline rallies if at all possible.
In the late '80s and early '90s, I came to the net whether I served or I returned. I avoided engaging in baseline rallies if at all possible.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
That's a good point, kinda what I found also.
Question for you and others,
Do you guys look at the opponent's racket or strictly at the ball when they make contact?
I wanna start the practice of looking at the racket as they swing. Maybe that will give me more info and give me more time to react.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Can't really tell very much from looking at what the ball is doing at contact since that event is only 4-5 ms. But you can hear it. We react to sound much quicker than we react to a visual stimulus since the latter takes the eye and brain more time to process. Something like a 50 ms diff in reaction times for sound and sight.
In addition, we have to visually track the ball for a while, after contact, before we can predict it's path and bounce location.
The sound should provide you with quite a bit of information. You can get some idea of how hard the ball was struck and how much spin has been imparted. You can also tell how well the ball was struck. Was it framed or was it hit close to the frame? This is important information.
Yes, you should definitely watch the swingpath of the racket prior to contact -- especially the forward swing (or upward swing for serves). Watching the forward swing, will tell you when to split step. You should probably initiate that SS during the forward swing shortly before contact so that you are already off the ground when you hear & see the impact.
The swingpath will also tell you what type of spin will be imparted. In addition, it will give you some idea of how much spin will be imparted (before you actually hear it).
Just before your opponent starts their forward swing, you should be able to see both the ball and your opponent preparing to hit that ball. You might be able to pick up some clues from their preparation what options they might have. If they appear to be late or not optimally set up, you can get a good idea of what options they have available to them. Foot position (stance), hip orientation, torso orientation, type of takeback, etc should provide clues. Will they be able to set up in a position to hit in any direction? Sometimes their options will be limited because they have not set up properly or optimally.
For watching a serve, I'll notice the toss placement / trajectory but my primary focus will not be really be on that. I'll put more focus on the hitting shoulder (and pec), the arm and the racket during the upward swing. This will tell me when to split step and what type of serve they appear to be hitting. Toss placement can also help with this determination. But I'm not really focusing on the toss go up and down so much.
Again, the sound of impact should provide useful information. Unless the server has a visual "tell", I might not be able to tell exactly where the server is serving the ball until I've track the ball for a while after contact. It will probably be too difficult to tell from the very small diff in racket face orientation which way the ball will go.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
TBH I think it was the lighting. We had usually been playing in the clay bubble which uses incandescent lighting but the courts were closed this weekend for maintenance. So we played on the indoor hard courts with flourescent lighting. I think we took a bit to adjust given our aging eyes.
Proper eye discipline is to look at your opponent both for setup clues and swing clues to determine where the ball is going to be sent. If you are following the racket it will meet the ball so there is little point in watching the ball until contact. Never watch you own outgoing ball. We all do it but it's far better to get an early bead on your opponent.
When I'm volleying I look at whether the opponent is setting up for an inside shot or an outside shot. If it's an outside shot I'll give up the alley as the outside-out shot is the lowest percentage shot in tennis. If he's setting up for an inside shot I'll cover the alley to take away the inside-in winner and let my partner handle the inside-out CC.
