Essential Tennis Mark S. has huge serve but he does not land inside the court.
- Thread starter Raul_SJ
- Start date
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
750% of serve speed comes from the arm action and not the legs...
racquet head speed is what matters
racquet head speed is what matters
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J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
J
Occasional 110 isn’t huge for athletic, well-trained male player, is it? Likely he could serve bigger if he cleaned up his execution
This. Maybe he serves 115 with a toss inside the court. Guy is short though - so probably can't do that effectively.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
First serve contact needs to optimally happen inside the court. This of course will vary with player's height. But there is no way Mark should be landing on the baseline.
Landing on the baseline indicates that he is contacting behind the baseline.
www.popularmechanics.com
Landing on the baseline indicates that he is contacting behind the baseline.
A high, confident toss made 1 to 2 ft. inside the baseline allows the server to uncoil both upward and forward into the court, making contact at 1.5 times body height. For Roddick, at 6 ft. 2 in., that is roughly 9.5 ft. off the ground.
Tennis Physics: Anatomy of a Serve
No. 5 ranked Andy Roddick has the world's fastest tennis serve his 155-mph scorcher in 2004 set the record but he doesn't like to talk about it.
www.popularmechanics.com
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
2nd serves?
J
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
This is his first serve. His contact point should be farther into the court.
I'm more concerned about why his arm is five feet long and has two elbows.
J
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
He is also landing waaay off to the left. His landing foot orientation appears to be 45°, maybe more. Perhaps this over rotation is diminishing his ability to drive both upward and forward. Probably not really tossing into the court either.This is his first serve. His contact point should be farther into the court.
jdawgg
Semi-Pro
Hi Mark, I know you're reading this.
ETs calculations were definitely off on serve speeds. Mark said his fastest serve was 137MPH out wide on one of ETs videos according to their calculations. We know that is just not true when some of the greatest ATP players of all time that were around Marks height have fastest all time serves in the low 120s.
I noticed ET stopped doing the serve speeds as much (probably because they realized they were way off and it's misleading) and they seem toned down so maybe they were adjusted more recently?
That said Marks serve looks pretty solid for his height and level. I'm guessing with a radar gun he would probably be in the low 100s on his fastest serves. This is coming from someone who has taken lots of video of players around his level (which happens to be my level as well). We also had a radar gun serving event once a year at a tennis club I worked at. Would be curious to see actual radar gun footage from him to see if I am right (not just one doctored serve either, but a grouping of 20 serves in a row or something).
Mark looks like he took Kovacs advice on back leg loading to heart but also took it a bit too far.
ETs calculations were definitely off on serve speeds. Mark said his fastest serve was 137MPH out wide on one of ETs videos according to their calculations. We know that is just not true when some of the greatest ATP players of all time that were around Marks height have fastest all time serves in the low 120s.
I noticed ET stopped doing the serve speeds as much (probably because they realized they were way off and it's misleading) and they seem toned down so maybe they were adjusted more recently?
That said Marks serve looks pretty solid for his height and level. I'm guessing with a radar gun he would probably be in the low 100s on his fastest serves. This is coming from someone who has taken lots of video of players around his level (which happens to be my level as well). We also had a radar gun serving event once a year at a tennis club I worked at. Would be curious to see actual radar gun footage from him to see if I am right (not just one doctored serve either, but a grouping of 20 serves in a row or something).
Mark looks like he took Kovacs advice on back leg loading to heart but also took it a bit too far.
ZanderGoga
Semi-Pro
Where you're tossing and the degree of leg contribution are real, but fairly trivial factors in overall serve speed and success.
A good motion from the hips to the point of contact will get you 90-95% of the way there. The rest is just trying to eke out every last mph. At his level, Mark is right to be focused on developing good technique where it matters.
There's no such thing as a 4.5 with a perfect serve. "Working on it," and developing all the most important parts well is as good as can be hoped for. And I'd say he's doing a nice job with that.
A good motion from the hips to the point of contact will get you 90-95% of the way there. The rest is just trying to eke out every last mph. At his level, Mark is right to be focused on developing good technique where it matters.
There's no such thing as a 4.5 with a perfect serve. "Working on it," and developing all the most important parts well is as good as can be hoped for. And I'd say he's doing a nice job with that.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
It's just that good players and pros know that foot faults get called in real tourneys. The "take two steps into the court" TW serves are a no-no.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
See updated pics above for first and second serve landing point. His shallow landing point on kick serve is less of a concern but he has an issue with first serve contact point.
According to Bruce Elliott, servers should be tilting their trunk some 30 to 40 degrees forward at contact on first serve. @Chas Tennis. He is vertical or even leaning back at contact.
Ian has clocked his serve at 110 mph, which is pretty amazing given his sub-optimal technique. How many mph he is sacrificing is not particularly relevant as even 5 mph can be significant. But suspect he is giving up far more mph than that.
The bottom line is that there is no reason he should be landing short of the baseline on first serve.
Just because pros can serve 100 mph second serve kicks with foot landing on the baseline is not a justification for 4.5 rec players to employ sub-optimal technique.
First Serve Contact Point
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J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
We are not talking four feet into the court.
One does not need to be Superman to make contact one or two feet into the court. It is actually far more comfortable and natural for an average 3.5 to contact bit inside the court (the challenge is getting a reliable toss into the court).
It is far more awkward to be contacting as he is currently doing. And he is a 4.5/5.0. And an instructor.
Compare and contrast with his opponent.
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Well he isn't a pro - so his tech
Serena has a bit of a hitch on her serve.. Her racquet drop is not optimally timed - Ric Macci pointed this out. So even pros have imperfect technique - never mind 5.0 teaching pros.
Serena has a bit of a hitch on her serve.. Her racquet drop is not optimally timed - Ric Macci pointed this out. So even pros have imperfect technique - never mind 5.0 teaching pros.
RyanRF
Professional
I can't understand why you are so worked up about this. He has a good serve for his level and height.
A 4.5-5.0 uses technique that deviates from 'ideal'? - not surprising
A 'non-ideal' shot is still pretty effective? - not surprising
One individual finds something to be comfortable that another person considers 'awkward'? - not surprising
More detail please.
Harry_Wild
G.O.A.T.
People will be fearful of playing you too!
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
It works for Mark. That is fine. He is the rare exception. Perhaps he is arming it.
Rec players need to practicing contacting a bit inside the court on first serve . This is as fundamental as avoiding waiter's tray. I notice a huge increase in power when tossing forward and contacting just two feet into the court versus contact at baseline. It is the difference between a 70 mph serve and a 90 mph serve. It is effortless power.
It is not physically difficult at all to contact slightly inside the court.
The challenge is getting the toss forward after coiling the upper body away.
Pro Tip:
DO make contact a bit forward into the court for effortless power.
The Kinetic Chain will thank you.
Rec players need to practicing contacting a bit inside the court on first serve . This is as fundamental as avoiding waiter's tray. I notice a huge increase in power when tossing forward and contacting just two feet into the court versus contact at baseline. It is the difference between a 70 mph serve and a 90 mph serve. It is effortless power.
It is not physically difficult at all to contact slightly inside the court.
The challenge is getting the toss forward after coiling the upper body away.
Pro Tip:
DO make contact a bit forward into the court for effortless power.
The Kinetic Chain will thank you.
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J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
It works for Mark. That is fine. He is the rare exception. Perhaps he is arming it.
Rec players need to practicing contacting a bit inside the court on first serve . This is as fundamental as avoiding waiter's tray. I notice a huge increase in power when tossing forward and contacting just two feet into the court versus contact at baseline. It is the difference between a 70 mph serve and a 90 mph serve. It is effortless power.
It is not physically difficult at all to contact slightly inside the court.
The challenge is getting the toss forward after coiling the upper body away.
Pro Tip:
DO make contact a bit forward into the court for effortless power.
The Kinetic Chain will thank you.
I would like to see your 90mph serve.
J
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Side views of the serve would be more informative. For ATP, the trunk and arm tilt forward at impact for flat and slice serves. Raonic is an example of a server with a foot (toe) that can land far in (3 feet?). Federer is an example, whose foot may land less than a foot in. Guessing some lengths.
The distance the foot lands in is one variable with considerable range for ATP servers. One foot to 3 feet may apply to many servers. Toe not reaching baseline, I don't think that you see any/many there.
It would be nice to have stats on where the foot lands in the court, how far in the court to impact, etc..
Check also that when you see a picture - especially when cherry picking - that the landing position is typical of an identified serve type.
For most issues looking at 8-10 randomly picked servers, or known strong servers, gives some indication of what you might find.
Injuries can make servers modify their serves over some months or years. Federer had back issues 2013-2015 I believe.
They have lists of ATP players by rank. To pick randomly you could pick top 10 or 20. Or every 3rd or 4th player in top 100. Or compare top 10 to 90-100 ranking. Find slow motion videos from the side camera view.
The distance the foot lands in is one variable with considerable range for ATP servers. One foot to 3 feet may apply to many servers. Toe not reaching baseline, I don't think that you see any/many there.
It would be nice to have stats on where the foot lands in the court, how far in the court to impact, etc..
Check also that when you see a picture - especially when cherry picking - that the landing position is typical of an identified serve type.
For most issues looking at 8-10 randomly picked servers, or known strong servers, gives some indication of what you might find.
Injuries can make servers modify their serves over some months or years. Federer had back issues 2013-2015 I believe.
They have lists of ATP players by rank. To pick randomly you could pick top 10 or 20. Or every 3rd or 4th player in top 100. Or compare top 10 to 90-100 ranking. Find slow motion videos from the side camera view.
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J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I stood exactly on the baseline and took video of a bunch of servers.
Let me see what I have.
J
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The serves show the racket about vertical at impact from the side camera view. (the behind camera view shows the racket tilts to the left for the right handed server. So the racket is not really vertical). The trunk and arm tilt forward usually for the ATP serve. The side camera view should show Mark S. is more upright with less forward trunk and arm tilt.
Nobody knows how less arm and trunk forward tilt might affect the serve pace or consistency. ?
I'd bet that if we had a list of differences between ATP servers and other servers the more differences - the less pace. A few percent (?) per difference. ?
For the kick serve, I've posted that the racket shaft should show a 12-15 degrees racket face closed tilt at impact and that the slice and flat serves don't have that closed tilt. This considerable angle has been observed a few times, but not enough times as of now. All that is necessary to observe it is to have a high speed video camera viewing the side of a good kick serve that bounces high and to the side.
closed means the highest edge of the racket is forward of a vertical line.
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Mixeddubskickserve
Rookie
Sadly we can't really use any reliable serve speed data unless it's coming from a legit source such as what you'd find at a pro event. I mean the serve gun at my club has told me I have clocked 120mph before which is just laughable!This is Ian's sidekick Mark S. Has a huge 110 mph serve.
But how does he do it without tossing into the court?
Left foot lands on the baseline.
In terms of his contact it would probably be more appropriate to measure how high his contact point is off the ground instead of where he is landing after he serves
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
That makes sense. We were taking Ian's speed gun on faith -- maybe he's only at 95 mph. This only bolsters our point that the contact point should be slightly in front of the baseline. We are not talking Isner. Contact point about two feet into the court, with toss landing about five feet (if you were to let the toss drop) is sufficient to transfer tremendous momentum and weight into the ball.
Contact height in and of itself is not as meaningful . Must contact into the court as well on a first serve. Contact point at the correct height but at the baseline will be sub-optimal for a first serve.
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Mark_Sansait
New User
I agree with a lot of you guys are thinking with my first serve against Cole in that example (September 2020 I believe when it was recorded), I have talked with friends, students, and coaches about my serve (specifically first serve contact point), and I believe I have started to fix it the right way... but there is always room to improve!
Also my fastest "recorded" (on a crappy indoor tennis radar gun) is 127mph (yes, take that with a grain of salt)... and it was during a King of the Court drill (ad side up the T). Obviously I would NEVER attempt that in a competitive situation.
Also my fastest "recorded" (on a crappy indoor tennis radar gun) is 127mph (yes, take that with a grain of salt)... and it was during a King of the Court drill (ad side up the T). Obviously I would NEVER attempt that in a competitive situation.
yossarian
Professional
take what people say here with an extreme grain of salt.
Federer was once rated as a 4.5+
Mixeddubskickserve
Rookie
I used to think the same until I looked at alot of slow motion footage of pros hitting serves in matches and it was interesting that the height of the contact point was something they all had in common whereas the degree of contact inside the court had a much wider variance.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying I'm just sharing what I have seen that's all
Mixeddubskickserve
Rookie
Thanks for the input Mark
Since we have seen your serve on video would you care to share with us what drills/exercises you are doing in an attempt to fix the issue you said you are working on
Mark_Sansait
New User
Honeslty, just tossing the ball in front (where if I let the ball land, it would land towards the net and not at the baseline).
Do that about 10 times before serving that day and then start hitting first serves only.
Do that about 10 times before serving that day and then start hitting first serves only.
Mixeddubskickserve
Rookie
Okay fair enough that makes sense. When you do that do you find then it's harder to adjust for the second serve or does that toss come alot easier?
Also have you managed to figure out a good distance the ball needs to land within the court as you are practicing the toss? Sorry for the questions I just struggle with the same thing since I find it difficult to get my hips into the court more from the toss
Also have you managed to figure out a good distance the ball needs to land within the court as you are practicing the toss? Sorry for the questions I just struggle with the same thing since I find it difficult to get my hips into the court more from the toss
Mark_Sansait
New User
No, my second serve toss is a lot more natural to me.
For being 5'8, a good distance for the ball to land into the court is 6-9 (nice) inches inside of the baseline.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
A foot or so inside the baseline sounds acceptable for a kick serve.
For a flat serve, I am trying to get the toss to land about four to five feet into the court with the goal of making contact about two feet into the court.
I observe that a toss landing on the baseline results in a 70 mph flat serve but a toss landing into the court results in a 90 mph serve that feels effortless due to momentum and weight transfer.
The challenge is getting the toss consistent and into the court. I am coiling upper body away first and then releasing with tossing arm roughly parallel to baseline. This will require a J toss to get inside the court.
For a flat serve, you must toss into the court and land inside the court to generate proper momentum and weight transfer.
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Mixeddubskickserve
Rookie
4-5 feet inside the court? I can't tell if you are trolling or being serious but either way I'm loving it!
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Yes you are understandably excited and confused. We will help you.
4-5 feet inside the court is where my toss LANDS if I let it drop. Making contact about one and a half to two feet into the court.
I am six feet tall with long arms. And I am not even lifting up off the ground on the serve. Maybe lifting two inches off the ground.
Feel more comfortable grounded. Only when you get the toss and contact right should you think about lifting higher.
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ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Mixeddubskickserve
Rookie
Question! Since I am only 5 10 myself with average length arms can you recommend how far into the court my toss should be landing? Also should I attempt a 2 foot contact point past the baseline or should I scale things back due to my mediocrity on the serve
RyanRF
Professional
Don't you know you're not allowed to show examples of variation in pro technique? It's totally not fair to all the armchair purists out there! Also Dimitrov shouldn't count because he uses eastern forehand and we all know that's wrong.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Stan lands inside the court. Makes contact inside the court. With forward trunk flexion and momentum into the court.
Everything that Mark does not quite do yet. But he says he is working on it.
First shadow swing comfortably into the court and estimate where your contact point is for the flat serve.
After that you will have to figure out where your toss must land in order to accomodate that contact point.
Get a partner to stand to the side and feed you tosses.
Watch this video from TwoMinuteTennis. He says he likes to toss into the court and , as a rough guide, check if the ball rolls to the service line.
He is not a tall guy but his toss looks to be landing at least 4 feet inside the court.
Look where his toss lands!!
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Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Ryan is not tall and can serve 100 mph by tossing into the court. He lets the toss drop here.
Look where the toss lands!! That is the exact moment of the bounce.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
If it's far more comfortable and natural, why don't more 3.5s do it?
Is the toss the only reason? I'm not sure tossing into the court is that much more difficult, if at all, than tossing straight up, given how much trouble players can have with the supposedly simpler toss.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
That is the reason Nikola cites for rec players not employing the "tossing arm roughly parallel to the baseline" style ala Fed and Sampras. Nice natural coil before toss release but it is then difficult to get the toss forward accurately into the court.
Nikola advises rec players to toss diagonal style. Tossing arm going out to right net post.
