A Singles Ladder? I Must Be Out Of My Mind

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I don't think I can send off my rackets, but maybe I could take a picture. I have this new Droid phone, so maybe I will learn to take and upload a pic?

You'll be disappointed, though. It's just a beat up APD with frayed strings and a grimy overgrip . . .
 

rufusbgood

Semi-Pro
No, no Cindy. I know what your racquet looks like. I mean I want to test the string bed to see how loose it's gotten. And I'd like to string it because if you can't tell the difference between new strings and old strings it makes me wonder at the skill level of your stringer. Oh, and just send one please, so you can compare.

Everybody else here, raise your hand if you think Cindy deserves a free stringing for the most entertaining posts on TW.
 
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MrCLEAN

Rookie
seeya.gif
 

rufusbgood

Semi-Pro
C'mon, we're all friends here. Do I look like a racquet kidnapper to you? What if I said Jolly had been to my house? Would Jolly associate with racquet kidnappers? Huh? Jolly? I think not!
 

JoelDali

Talk Tennis Guru
Well its either funny or its not. I'm glad you scored a chuckle.

Looks like the ban hammer is coming on me, I'm getting tons of hate mail today and my posts being reported.

Goodbye TT, time to move on...sad face.
 

rufusbgood

Semi-Pro
Cindy, I would only ship your racquet out to rufus if he promises to string it with a full VS.

Personally, I think a full set of gut makes a lot of sense especially if she's going to insist on stringing that racquet at 58 lbs. One of the reasons I want to see the racquet is that I don't think a gut/poly hybrid at 58 makes any sense unless it was strung on a lockout machine. The whole point of doing a gut/poly hybrid is that it would allow her to drop the tension and get a larger sweetspot without sacrificing any control. But, it doesn't seem that anyone bothered to drop the tension. So, if this was done on a constant pull machine, I'd expect her to end up with a racquet that feels like a board. Fine for doubles perhaps since she'd probably never hit a volley long, but terrible for singles.

My own recommendation would be gut/fluoro at 53 lbs.
 

skraggle

Professional
Rufus said he would count my life savings for me, so I sent it off to:

Precision Cash Counting
PO Box 486
Franklin Square NY 11010

That was four years ago.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Personally, I think a full set of gut makes a lot of sense especially if she's going to insist on stringing that racquet at 58 lbs. One of the reasons I want to see the racquet is that I don't think a gut/poly hybrid at 58 makes any sense unless it was strung on a lockout machine. The whole point of doing a gut/poly hybrid is that it would allow her to drop the tension and get a larger sweetspot without sacrificing any control. But, it doesn't seem that anyone bothered to drop the tension. So, if this was done on a constant pull machine, I'd expect her to end up with a racquet that feels like a board. Fine for doubles perhaps since she'd probably never hit a volley long, but terrible for singles.

My own recommendation would be gut/fluoro at 53 lbs.

We are way above my pay grade at this point! :)

My old pro strung my rackets at the club. They have a shiny machine there. I have no idea what kind of machine it is. He chose 58 because . . . I have no idea. I know that his general take on these things is that control is more important for players like me than power.

He made the decision to use the gut on the mains, FWIW. I think the rackets feel terrific, so I figure that's good enough for me.

I may switch to full gut after I use up my poly inventory. Which will probably be a couple of years from now!
 

dlk

Hall of Fame
We are way above my pay grade at this point! :)

My old pro strung my rackets at the club. They have a shiny machine there. I have no idea what kind of machine it is. He chose 58 because . . . I have no idea. I know that his general take on these things is that control is more important for players like me than power.

He made the decision to use the gut on the mains, FWIW. I think the rackets feel terrific, so I figure that's good enough for me.

I may switch to full gut after I use up my poly inventory. Which will probably be a couple of years from now!

What will gut do for your game? Stringing is one of my biggest questions in tennis. I just tell the stringer to string at recommended level, & take advice from sales person on what string to try.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
^I will never know until I try. My pro didn't think I'd feel much difference between the current set-up and all gut to justify the extra cost, however.
 

Maui19

Hall of Fame
Well its either funny or its not. I'm glad you scored a chuckle.

Looks like the ban hammer is coming on me, I'm getting tons of hate mail today and my posts being reported.

Goodbye TT, time to move on...sad face.

I sure hope not.

There is a sure way to stop email complaints. Uncheck the profile option that allows other members to email you!
 

rufusbgood

Semi-Pro
What will gut do for your game? Stringing is one of my biggest questions in tennis. I just tell the stringer to string at recommended level, & take advice from sales person on what string to try.

For someone who doesn't break strings, natural gut offers the longest playing life, meaning it doesn't go dead as quickly as synthetics. And it holds tension better than synthetics. It offers more feel and more comfort and the sense of holding the ball on the strings longer particularly at the net.

Nevertheless, if you've been playing with a typical synthetic gut and have your racquet re-strung with a full set of a high quality gut at triple or quadruple the price, chances are you are not going to walk out on the court and experience a revelation or see your game move up a half level. When the gut breaks though and you reach into your bag for your back up racquet with the synthetic gut in it, you will hit a few balls and realize it feels like cheap, plastic crap.
 

rufusbgood

Semi-Pro
We are way above my pay grade at this point! :)

Que?

It costs $5 to send a racquet by Priority Mail.
I hope you're not thinking that I expect you to provide the string.
Heck, I'll even pick up the return postage.

BTW, if it would make you more comfortable, I can ship it to a male
friend/relative/colleague/neighbor of yours. Preferably a business
address so it doesn't sit out in the cold all day.
 
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Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
OK, I had another match. I lost, -2 and -4.

The opponent was a 4.0 teammate. She's a singles player all the way. She went 5-2 in the 4.0 singles league this fall, including two wins at Districts. Doesn't come to net, doesn't volley or hit overheads, gets everything back. Very fast. Solid off of both sides.

Based on that, I formulated a game plan. I would take my FH crosscourt to hers, using lots of topspin to hit the side T, knowing she likely wouldn't approach. I would also sneak into net if I got it high to her BH.

So of course I did none of those things.

No, it was SOS ("Starting Off Stupid") yet again. I made a series of heinous, inexcusable errors and fell behind 0-4. I just couldn't figure out what to do to put more than couple of consecutive balls in the court.

And then I figured it out. My mistake was that I was trying to take the very first ball in the rally and do something special with it. I decided to just get the rally started with one deep ball and see what she gave me to work with.

I quickly discovered that she loved to hit her FH crosscourt, but my FH was much better. I started running "plays." I would take the first ball up the middle deep. She would invariably hit to my FH. I would then topspin the next ball off the side T to her FH. She would run over to get it, leaving the whole court open. She would hit it crosscourt and recover. So I would hit another ball right back to the T. I would repeat this until she missed or the court was so wide open I could hit an easy winner down the line. Bonus: This started to make her a little tired.

The other play I started to run was I would wait for a ball that I was confident I could lob and then spin the crap out of it high and deep. I would sneak into the net. My reward was an easy put-away.

I lost the first set, and we stayed on serve in the second set until 4-4. Then I made a couple of dumb mistakes on her serve and then made more mistakes to lose my serve.

Still, I think I am finally getting it. Singles points are kind of like when you drive and you are sitting at a red light. When it changes to green, you don't stomp on the gas. No, you calmly and slowly accelerate. In singles, I usually won the point when I simply started the point off neutral and waited for the type of ball I like to hit -- Xcourt FH. Also helpful was when I was in trouble was to simply hit a ball that allowed me to re-start the point instead of going for the impossible winner.

For the next matches, I still need to clean up my BH because I have no idea what I should do with it and am very tentative. Ironically, I lost some crucial points by backing off of easy mid-court balls when I should have just thumped them.

And I *really* need to stop hesitating about coming to net. I did not miss an overhead or volley until mid-way through the second set, and I only missed two the whole match.

I seriously need to figure out how to serve with fewer DFs. I am hitting 1-2 DFs per service game, partly because I am not used to serving when I am so winded!

Afterward, my teammate said that I need to hit that topspin lob and sneak in way more often. She said it surprised her every time. I felt OK about hitting that lob this time because I felt like I was doing it strategically rather than just lobbing because I can.
 

OrangePower

Legend
(snip snip)
we stayed on serve in the second set until 4-4
(more snipping)
I seriously need to figure out how to serve with fewer DFs. I am hitting 1-2 DFs per service game
(lots more snipped)

Just curious - how much is it an advantage to be serving in ladies 3.5/4.0 singles tennis?

If both of you were holding serve until 4-4, then seems like serving is an overall advantage. Even though you were DF a lot. Are you getting a lot of free points off your serve?

In general do you find yourself holding serve more often than not? And why?

From my very limited exposure to women's tennis (a bit of mixed play with 4.0/4.5 ladies), I have not seen many that have a serve that is a weapon, but maybe this is more the case with women who play mostly singles?
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I haven't played anyone whose serve I thought was really good. Like, today's opponent hit the same basic serve to the middle of the box, with some ability to go for placement sometimes. On her second serve, it was so slow that I stood over toward my Bh and hit all FH returns. In other words, when I miss the return it is because I am trying to go for a lot off of a weak serve.

As for me, I found that when I hit a good serve, I got a short reply or a miss into the net. For me, a "good" serve was one that had a lot of slice or bounced high to her BH. I can't aim my serve at all these days (too cold for practice), so I can never be sure where it is going. I hit a lot of ad courts serves wide to her BH, but I wasn't really aiming. That's just how it went today.

Pro says he is going to work with me on getting a kicker so I get more net clearance on my second serve. Most of my DFs were into the net. He promised I would have the kicker by April. :)
 
I haven't played anyone whose serve I thought was really good. Like, today's opponent hit the same basic serve to the middle of the box, with some ability to go for placement sometimes. On her second serve, it was so slow that I stood over toward my Bh and hit all FH returns. In other words, when I miss the return it is because I am trying to go for a lot off of a weak serve.

As for me, I found that when I hit a good serve, I got a short reply or a miss into the net. For me, a "good" serve was one that had a lot of slice or bounced high to her BH. I can't aim my serve at all these days (too cold for practice), so I can never be sure where it is going. I hit a lot of ad courts serves wide to her BH, but I wasn't really aiming. That's just how it went today.

Pro says he is going to work with me on getting a kicker so I get more net clearance on my second serve. Most of my DFs were into the net. He promised I would have the kicker by April. :)[/QUOTEI

If your with the right coach , you should learn a kick serve in a week or so. I am around a 4.5 so i know this from experince. My coach told me to toss above my nose hit up and pronate down. Good Luck! Sounds Like you have been playing good tennis acording to all of the posts ahead of mine! Cheers
 

waves2ya

Rookie
Dispassionate stroke self diagnosis key to improvement and winning matches...

Serve DF's into the net for someone who knows how to serve (that's you) almost always a toss too low Ms. Sphinx...
 

SweetH2O

Rookie
She should just make a contract with herself to allow only one DF per set, like she did with her doubles partner a while back.

Not so easy when you are the one with the serving yips, is it? :)
 

Sherlock

Rookie
My problem has always been the tossing arm coming down too soon. I rarely get nervous playing tennis, I just love it too much :eek: Congrats on figuring some things out Cindy. I think you'll find that as long as your body can handle it, singles is much more fun.
 

NLBwell

Legend
Slow racket head speed due to nerves.

That's the nice thing about a kick serve. You get more margin for error (more spin) when you swing harder. Therefore, it forces you to up ther racket head speed on crucial points, which helps eliminate nerves (body/mind connection).
 

Larrysümmers

Hall of Fame
That's the nice thing about a kick serve. You get more margin for error (more spin) when you swing harder. Therefore, it forces you to up ther racket head speed on crucial points, which helps eliminate nerves (body/mind connection).

man, idk. when i firststarted kicking the ball in instead of slices for 2nd services. i would get nervous and and bad things happen. although, now it isnt bad because i am more confident in it so i swing faster than i do a first serve, and it is muchhh better. i think once you get over the nerves and realize that you can hit it hard, then things come together very nicely
 

NLBwell

Legend
man, idk. when i firststarted kicking the ball in instead of slices for 2nd services. i would get nervous and and bad things happen. although, now it isnt bad because i am more confident in it so i swing faster than i do a first serve, and it is muchhh better. i think once you get over the nerves and realize that you can hit it hard, then things come together very nicely

Agree, you do have to get proficient and confident in the kick serve first. Like any stroke it will break down when you are still learning it.
 

athiker

Hall of Fame
I seriously need to figure out how to serve with fewer DFs. I am hitting 1-2 DFs per service game, partly because I am not used to serving when I am so winded!

Pro says he is going to work with me on getting a kicker so I get more net clearance on my second serve. Most of my DFs were into the net. He promised I would have the kicker by April. :)

Toss too far out in front.

Slow racket head speed due to nerves.

Tossing arm coming down too soon.

Yeah, I have it all.

One more thing to add to the list...when winded think about more knee bend.

Yeah, I've read all the stuff about 120 mph serves while on one's knees and thus using no legs, but still...think bend the knees more when tired (actually probably just gets one bending them the same as when not tired!) and you will be hitting up on the ball more as you rise to it, at least vs less bend, and should get better net clearance.

Same for basketball when one starts hitting the rim short after getting tired...gotta bend the knees more to get the ball there.




...................................
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Tomorrow I play another match. And this one is gonna get interesting fast.

My opponent is a 4.0. She is the Queen of Lob Queens. I am told she will hit 1-2 medium-paced groundies and she will then start lobbing everything.

My 4.0 teammate friend just lost to this lady. She said that each lob gets deeper and deeper until finally the last one bounces so high that you run out of real estate. She said this opponent will under no circumstances come to net, and she said the opponent gets winded easily (which simply increases the extent to which she will lob).

My teammate, bless her heart, does not play the net, lacks an overhead, cannot hit on the rise, cannot hit a swinging volley, and has no drop shot. She said she lost by trying to do all of those shots and missing.

I have a lesson that morning, followed by the match.

Any ideas on what I should try to learn in my lesson and what tactics I should employ?

Several people told me that I should be able to win this match with my net play, but I am not so sure . . .
 

esgee48

G.O.A.T.
I would try hitting sharp angled groundstrokes to move her from side to side. Hit them low, hit them high to disrupt her timing. Come into the net on short balls for put aways. Move her forwards and backwards. Sounds like your team mate knew what to do, just could not execute the shots.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I need to be careful. There are a lot of shots I don't have also.

It is hard to lob well off of low slices, but I don't yet trust my slice.

It would be great to hit drop shots, but this is not possible off of lobs, and I don't have a reliable drop shot.

What I can do is hit swinging volleys and (maybe) overheads. The thing with my overhead is that even if I miss a few early, it gets better the more often I hit it in a match. So I will look for chances to come in.

What I will need to decide early is whether I can win lob wars. If she is mostly a pusher, I doubt she will have Serious Topspin on those lobs of hers, so maybe I can bother her by putting good topspin on mine.

I'll be interested to see what my pro says . . . .
 

North

Professional
Is she bothered by those moonball type lobs? Many pushers cannot handle those. Other than that I would run her ragged and be a stickler for time between points, games, etc.

Also - how does she do when drawn to the net and then lobbed by her opponent?
 

magmasilk

New User
My opponent is a 4.0. She is the Queen of Lob Queens. I am told she will hit 1-2 medium-paced groundies and she will then start lobbing everything ...

Any ideas on what I should try to learn in my lesson and what tactics I should employ?

Perhaps hit short (ideally slice) and try to entice her to be overly aggressive ... at the very lease she may tire from moving fwd and back?

Also, I think out lobbing a lob queen might be playing into her strengths unless are committed to grinding her down with your superior stamina.

Alternatively you can try being very aggressive; she will probably give you slow balls you can setup for and really go after. You probably won't win but you can work on hitting winners.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Good lord. What a nightmare.

I showed up for my lesson, hoping to fix my serve (so many DFs lately!!) and work on overheads/swinging volleys/other tactics. My pro sees me standing there and realizes he has forgotten I was supposed to have a lesson. He has no time for me, so no lesson.

I go the match with my hideous mess of a serve. Sure enough, I can't put a serve in the box to save my life. I DF'd at least once every game, often twice. Not to mention how I wasn't able to actually achieve anything with a serve that normally gives people a lot of trouble.

Anyway. We get started, and sure enough her strokes are a mess. She is a pusher, her lobs do not have topspin, and she struggles with transition and net play.

We start playing, and I figured it out. I would hit my regular shots, but when I got a ball I could lob I would try to spin it deep and follow it in, stopping at the service line. Sure enough, this worked! I was able to hit overhead and volley winners almost every time. When I lost points, it was DFs or the many times I should have taken one of her lobs out of the air but bounced it like an idiot instead.

Despite all of the DFs, I win the first set 6-4.

[Allow me to pause and bask in that for just a minute. It wasn't so long ago I couldn't beat a 3.5, and now I won a set over a computer-rated 4.0 -- and I did it without a serve. I'm getting the hang of this!]

The second set was a problem for me. I started trying to take more balls as swinging volleys, but I missed too many. I didn't hit my approaches hard enough, and I was too hesitant in moving forward -- literally moving forward for lobs and changing my mind, only to see it bounce over my head!! Very dumb indeed. She won the second set 1-6, with 12 minutes to go in our 2-hour block of time.

We go sip some water, and we have the following conversation:

Me: OK, we'd better get the tiebreak started.

Opponent: What tiebreak?

Me: A 10-point tiebreak because we split sets. The ladder rules say that when there's less than 20 minutes left you play a tiebreak, and you play the third set out when there's more than 20 minutes.

Opponent: No, the rules say that we have to agree, and I don't agree to play a tiebreak. I want to play a third set.

Me: If we start a third set, we will never finish in 12 minutes. So let's do a tiebreak so we can finish the match. Besides, I think the rules require us to play the tiebreak. Won't they kick us off the court when time is up?

Opponent: Yes, they'll kick us off. Let's just start the third set anyway.

Me: Well, I guess I'll have to check the rules when I get home, because I thought the tiebreak was mandatory. But if you are refusing to play a tiebreak, then I see no point in starting a third set. I guess I will gather my things and leave. I do think that if you were going to insist on a third set, you might have said something at the outset rather than bringing it up now. And I can tell you if the situation were reversed I would play the tiebreak because I like to finish matches whenever possible. So. Goodbye.

***********

So I go home and check the rules, and sure enough the decision is left to the players, although players are advised to play the tiebreak when time is short, as I said. Which means she gets the W.

And I will complain to the organizer that the rules for this ladder are stupid and should be changed to require the players to agree on the tiebreak issue before play begins, and to *require* the tiebreak when time is short. Or if they cannot agree, then they should have to come back and play the third set another time.
 

lethalphorce

New User
Me: Well, I guess I'll have to check the rules when I get home, because I thought the tiebreak was mandatory. But if you are refusing to play a tiebreak, then I see no point in starting a third set. I guess I will gather my things and leave. I do think that if you were going to insist on a third set, you might have said something at the outset rather than bringing it up now. And I can tell you if the situation were reversed I would play the tiebreak because I like to finish matches whenever possible. So. Goodbye.

***********

So I go home and check the rules, and sure enough the decision is left to the players, although players are advised to play the tiebreak when time is short, as I said. Which means she gets the W.

And I will complain to the organizer that the rules for this ladder are stupid and should be changed to require the players to agree on the tiebreak issue before play begins, and to *require* the tiebreak when time is short. Or if they cannot agree, then they should have to come back and play the third set another time.

I agree that she should have played the TB. . . but Cindy, why would you just forfeit the match like that? That seems a bit unsportsmanlike to just up & leave. She was within her rights to choose to play the 3rd set. If I were you, I wouldn't like the decision, but I would have played out the match.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I agree that she should have played the TB. . . but Cindy, why would you just forfeit the match like that? That seems a bit unsportsmanlike to just up & leave. She was within her rights to choose to play the 3rd set. If I were you, I wouldn't like the decision, but I would have played out the match.

Nope, sorry. I don't waste my time.

If she is not willing to make a good faith attempt to play a match to its conclusion given the time constraints placed upon us in the manner recommended by the organizers, then I am done. I mean, if we don't agree on the format, then what would we be playing in that last 10 minutes? She wins a point and says 15-love, and then I say, no, it's 1-0?

I think she pulled a fast one, sort of. A little fast one (really, who cares?), but a fast one nonetheless.

At the end, she said something about how this had happened to her before and she had lost the match that time. "This" had happened before to her? So she knew there can be an issue about what the match format will be but opted to say nothing until she was sure she was ahead on games? Me, I would never do that.

I dunno. If I know there can be confusion, I feel obligated to clarify it with my opponent. If I know they have misunderstood a rule, I don't take advantage of it. If I am ahead and time is running out, I play at a normal pace rather than stall. If there's only five minutes left, I wouldn't take a five minute bathroom break even though the rules allow it.

Anyway, my main gripe is with the organizers. Their rules are insane -- there has to be a default on all scoring questions, with the players able to change it if both agree. Having no default position on how split sets are handled (and having nothing in the rules on when this should be decided) is poor management.

Eh, whatever.
 

OrangePower

Legend
Nope, sorry. I don't waste my time.

If she is not willing to make a good faith attempt to play a match to its conclusion given the time constraints placed upon us in the manner recommended by the organizers, then I am done. I mean, if we don't agree on the format, then what would we be playing in that last 10 minutes? She wins a point and says 15-love, and then I say, no, it's 1-0?

I think she pulled a fast one, sort of. A little fast one (really, who cares?), but a fast one nonetheless.

At the end, she said something about how this had happened to her before and she had lost the match that time. "This" had happened before to her? So she knew there can be an issue about what the match format will be but opted to say nothing until she was sure she was ahead on games? Me, I would never do that.

I dunno. If I know there can be confusion, I feel obligated to clarify it with my opponent. If I know they have misunderstood a rule, I don't take advantage of it. If I am ahead and time is running out, I play at a normal pace rather than stall. If there's only five minutes left, I wouldn't take a five minute bathroom break even though the rules allow it.

Anyway, my main gripe is with the organizers. Their rules are insane -- there has to be a default on all scoring questions, with the players able to change it if both agree. Having no default position on how split sets are handled (and having nothing in the rules on when this should be decided) is poor management.

Eh, whatever.

It's an unfortunate situation, but I think both you and your opponent are equally at fault for letting it get to that point.

Since the league rules leaves the decision to the players, the players should agree prior to the start of play what they will do in the event of it being 1 set all. You could even make your mutual up-front decision conditional on the amount time remaining at the start of the 3rd set / tiebreak.

One or both of you should have brought this question up before starting the match.

But I agree that the league rules should be tighter.
 

MrCLEAN

Rookie
Shame it ended that way, but if nothing else, I'm sure that in future matches, you'll get it talked out before the match starts. For the life of me, based on your description, I can't understand how she's rated 4.0.
 
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