Argements against Nadal to be GOAT
- Thread starter roysid
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DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
Nah not really. Once you win a slam you're effectively in your prime.
abmk
Bionic Poster
flashes of brilliance, not good enough for 7 best of 5 matches on clay. Not consistent/patient enough
Do I have to play the same card with Federer's slams like you did with Sampras?Why don't bring up some of Federer's French Open draws en route to Nadal? No I won't go there.
Baby Nadal in his 5th grass court tournament ever at wimbledon in 06. Zero slam mug Davydenko? Bum Gonzales? One dimensional 1 slam wonder Roddick? Phillipousis who couldn't even get a past a QF at wimbledon in the 90s? Broken Down post 2005 Hewitt? Elderly Andre with a broken back? Its a way to talk down Sampras' competition, but we can play the same card with Roger of course.
jeez, can you read ? I'm not comparing their competitions per se . I'm saying pete lost to pretty inferior players at the french, not just the FO champions
Set Sampras
Banned
I wouldn't categorize the start of Roger's prime in 2003 (even though he won wimbledon) . I would start it at 2004.
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
Roger's prime was 2003-2009. Roger's peak 2004-2007.
Pete's prime began in 1990. Peaked in the mid 90s.
Set Sampras
Banned
I don't agree to be honest . A prime should consist of consistent domination of the field or at least consistent top play through the entire season.. Pete was up and down and all over the place until 93.
Just like I wouldn't categorize as Nole's prime starting until this year. Before this year, he was up and down and all over the place. Just like prior to 2004, Fed was all over the place. You can still show flashes of brilliance and not be in a "prime". Fed's prime probably ended in 2008, though he still showed brilliance after of course.
Just like I wouldn't categorize as Nole's prime starting until this year. Before this year, he was up and down and all over the place. Just like prior to 2004, Fed was all over the place. You can still show flashes of brilliance and not be in a "prime". Fed's prime probably ended in 2008, though he still showed brilliance after of course.
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
Nole was the number 3 player in the world for what 5 years now,since 2007? How could he not be in his prime since 2008 when he won his first slam and maintained the #3 spot for so many more years? That's crazy. Were it not for Fedal he would have been #1 a long time ago. The presence of players betters than you doesn't mean you're not in your prime. Nole has now hit his peak.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Well, here they all are. The French Open records of Federer and Sampras.
Roger Federer's French Open record
1999 French Open
R128: Patrick Rafter def. Roger Federer (5-7, 6-3, 6-0, 6-2)
2000 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Wayne Arthurs (7-6, 6-3, 1-6, 6-3)
R64: Roger Federer def. Jan-Michael Gambill (7-6, 6-3, 6-3)
R32: Roger Federer def. Michel Kratochvil (7-6, 6-4, 2-6, 6-7, 8-6)
R16: Alex Corretja def. Roger Federer (7-5, 7-6, 6-2)
2001 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Stefano Galvani (6-3, 6-3, 6-3)
R64: Roger Federer def. Sargis Sargsian (4-6, 3-6, 6-2, 6-4, 9-7)
R32: Roger Federer def. David Sanchez (6-4, 6-3, 1-6, 6-3)
R16: Roger Federer def. Wayne Arthurs (3-6, 6-3, 6-4, 6-2)
QF: Alex Corretja def. Roger Federer (7-5, 6-4, 7-5)
2002 French Open
R128: Hicham Arazi def. Roger Federer (6-3, 6-2, 6-4)
2003 French Open
R128: Luis Horna def. Roger Federer (7-6, 6-2, 7-6)
2004 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Kristof Vliegen (6-1, 6-2, 6-1)
R64: Roger Federer def. Nicolas Kiefer (6-3, 6-4, 7-6)
R32: Gustavo Kuerten def. Roger Federer (6-4, 6-4, 6-4)
2005 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Dudi Sela (6-1, 6-4, 6-0)
R64: Roger Federer def. Nicolas Almagro (6-3, 7-6, 6-2)
R32: Roger Federer def. Fernando Gonzalez (7-6, 7-5, 6-2)
R16: Roger Federer def. Carlos Moya (6-1, 6-4, 6-3)
QF: Roger Federer def. Victor Hanescu (6-2, 7-6, 6-3)
SF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-3, 4-6, 6-4, 6-3)
2006 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Diego Hartfield (7-5, 7-6, 6-2)
R64: Roger Federer def. Alejandro Falla (6-1, 6-4, 6-3)
R32: Roger Federer def. Nicolas Massu (6-1, 6-2, 6-7, 7-5)
R16: Roger Federer def. Tomas Berdych (6-3, 6-2, 6-3)
QF: Roger Federer def. Mario Ancic (6-4, 6-3, 6-4)
SF: Roger Federer def. David Nalbandian (3-6, 6-4, 5-2 ret.)
F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (1-6, 6-1, 6-4, 7-6)
2007 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Michael Russell (6-4, 6-2, 6-4)
R64: Roger Federer def. Thierry Ascione (6-1, 6-2, 7-6)
R32: Roger Federer def. Potito Starace (6-2, 6-3, 6-0)
R16: Roger Federer def. Mikhail Youzhny (7-6, 6-4, 6-4)
QF: Roger Federer def. Tommy Robredo (7-5, 1-6, 6-1, 6-2)
SF: Roger Federer def. Nikolay Davydenko (7-5, 7-6, 7-6)
F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-3, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4)
2008 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Sam Querrey (6-4, 6-4, 6-3)
R64: Roger Federer def. Albert Montanes (6-7, 6-1, 6-0, 6-4)
R32: Roger Federer def. Mario Ancic (6-3, 6-4, 6-2)
R16: Roger Federer def. Julien Benneteau (6-4, 7-5, 7-5)
QF: Roger Federer def. Fernando Gonzalez (2-6, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4)
SF: Roger Federer def. Gael Monfils (6-2, 5-7, 6-3, 7-5)
F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-1, 6-3, 6-0)
2009 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Alberto Martin (6-4, 6-3, 6-2)
R64: Roger Federer def. Jose Acasuso (7-6, 5-7, 7-6, 6-2)
R32: Roger Federer def. Paul-Henri Mathieu (4-6, 6-1, 6-4, 6-4)
R16: Roger Federer def. Tommy Haas (6-7, 5-7, 6-4, 6-0, 6-2)
QF: Roger Federer def. Gael Monfils (7-6, 6-2, 6-4)
SF: Roger Federer def. Juan Martin del Potro (3-6, 7-6, 2-6, 6-1, 6-4)
F: Roger Federer def. Robin Soderling (6-1, 7-6, 6-4)
2010 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Peter Luczak (6-4, 6-1, 6-2)
R64: Roger Federer def. Alejandro Falla (7-6, 6-2, 6-4)
R32: Roger Federer def. Julian Reister (6-4, 6-0, 6-4)
R16: Roger Federer def. Stanislas Wawrinka (6-3, 7-6, 6-2)
QF: Robin Soderling def. Roger Federer (3-6, 6-3, 7-5, 6-4)
2011 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Feliciano Lopez (6-3, 6-4, 7-6)
R64: Roger Federer def. Maxime Teixeira (6-3, 6-0, 6-2)
R32: Roger Federer def. Janko Tipsarevic (6-1, 6-4, 6-3)
R16: Roger Federer def. Stanislas Wawrinka (6-3, 6-2, 7-5)
QF: Roger Federer def. Gael Monfils (6-4, 6-3, 7-6)
SF: Roger Federer def. Novak Djokovic (7-6, 6-3, 3-6, 7-6)
F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (7-5, 7-6, 5-7, 6-1)
Pete Sampras' French Open record
1989 French Open
R128: Pete Sampras def. Jorge Lozano (6-3, 6-2, 6-4)
R64: Michael Chang def. Pete Sampras (6-1, 6-1, 6-1)
1991 French Open
R128: Pete Sampras def. Thomas Muster (4-6, 4-6, 6-4, 6-1, 6-4)
R64: Thierry Champion def. Pete Sampras (6-3, 6-1, 6-1)
1992 French Open
R128: Pete Sampras def. Marc Rosset (7-6, 4-6, 6-4, 3-6, 6-3)
R64: Pete Sampras def. Laurent Prades (7-6, 6-4, 7-6)
R32: Pete Sampras def. Rodolphe Gilbert (6-3, 6-2, 6-3)
R16: Pete Sampras def. Carl-Uwe Steeb (6-4, 6-3, 6-2)
QF: Andre Agassi def. Pete Sampras (7-6, 6-2, 6-1)
1993 French Open
R128: Pete Sampras def. Andrei Cherkasov (6-1, 6-2, 3-6, 6-1)
R64: Pete Sampras def. Marcos Ondruska (7-5, 6-0, 6-3)
R32: Pete Sampras def. Jonas Svensson (6-4, 6-4, 6-2)
R16: Pete Sampras def. MaliVai Washington (6-3, 7-6, 6-1)
QF: Sergi Bruguera def. Pete Sampras (6-3, 4-6, 6-1, 6-4)
1994 French Open
R128: Pete Sampras def. Albert Costa (6-3, 6-4, 6-4)
R64: Pete Sampras def. Marcelo Rios (7-6, 7-6, 6-4)
R32: Pete Sampras def. Paul Haarhuis (6-1, 6-4, 6-1)
R16: Pete Sampras def. Mikael Tillstrom (6-4, 6-4, 1-6, 6-4)
QF: Jim Courier def. Pete Sampras (6-4, 5-7, 6-4, 6-4)
1995 French Open
R128: Gilbert Schaller def. Pete Sampras (7-6, 4-6, 6-7, 6-2, 6-4)
1996 French Open
R128: Pete Sampras def. Magnus Gustafsson (6-1, 7-5, 7-6)
R64: Pete Sampras def. Sergi Bruguera (6-3, 6-4, 6-7, 2-6, 6-3)
R32: Pete Sampras def. Todd Martin (3-6, 6-4, 7-5, 4-6, 6-2)
R16: Pete Sampras def. Scott Draper (6-4, 7-5, 6-2)
QF: Pete Sampras def. Jim Courier (6-7, 4-6, 6-4, 6-4, 6-4)
SF: Yevgeny Kafelnikov def. Pete Sampras (7-6, 6-0, 6-2)
1997 French Open
R128: Pete Sampras def. Fabrice Santoro (6-3, 7-5, 6-1)
R64: Pete Sampras def. Francisco Clavet (6-1, 6-2, 6-2)
R32: Magnus Norman def. Pete Sampras (6-2, 6-4, 2-6, 6-4)
1998 French Open
R128: Pete Sampras def. Todd Martin (6-4, 6-3, 6-3)
R64: Ramon Delgado def. Pete Sampras (7-6, 6-3, 6-4)
1999 French Open
R128: Pete Sampras def. Juan Antonio Marin (6-7, 6-4, 7-5, 6-7, 6-4)
R64: Andrei Medvedev def. Pete Sampras (7-5, 1-6, 6-4, 6-3)
2000 French Open
R128: Mark Philippoussis def. Pete Sampras (4-6, 7-5, 7-6, 4-6, 8-6)
2001 French Open
R128: Pete Sampras def. Cedric Kauffmann (6-3, 4-6, 6-2, 3-6, 8-6)
R64: Galo Blanco def. Pete Sampras (7-6, 6-3, 6-2)
2002 French Open
R128: Andrea Gaudenzi def. Pete Sampras (3-6, 6-4, 6-2, 7-6)
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Set Sampras
Banned
Fed's had some cakewalk draws to the Finals at the French. Thats undeniable. Of course he is superior to Pete on clay. No one is denying that. But looking at some of Fed's draws at the French over the years.. Hell I would like Pete's chances of reaching a finals too.
2005 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Dudi Sela (6-1, 6-4, 6-0)
R64: Roger Federer def. Nicolas Almagro (6-3, 7-6, 6-2)
R32: Roger Federer def. Fernando Gonzalez (7-6, 7-5, 6-2)
R16: Roger Federer def. Carlos Moya (6-1, 6-4, 6-3)
QF: Roger Federer def. Victor Hanescu (6-2, 7-6, 6-3)
SF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-3, 4-6, 6-4, 6-3)
I mean look at that draw.
2006 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Diego Hartfield (7-5, 7-6, 6-2)
R64: Roger Federer def. Alejandro Falla (6-1, 6-4, 6-3)
R32: Roger Federer def. Nicolas Massu (6-1, 6-2, 6-7, 7-5)
R16: Roger Federer def. Tomas Berdych (6-3, 6-2, 6-3)
QF: Roger Federer def. Mario Ancic (6-4, 6-3, 6-4)
SF: Roger Federer def. David Nalbandian (3-6, 6-4, 5-2 ret.) Dave had him beat here before he got hurt.
F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (1-6, 6-1, 6-4, 7-6)
Meanwhile if we compare it to Pete 96. Pete had to beat Bruguera and Courier. What if instead Pete had that draw?
2002 French Open
R128: Hicham Arazi def. Roger Federer (6-3, 6-2, 6-4)
2003 French Open
R128: Luis Horna def. Roger Federer (7-6, 6-2, 7-6)
..... Meanwhile Pete has to play Agassi and Bruguera? in 92 and 93?
2005 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Dudi Sela (6-1, 6-4, 6-0)
R64: Roger Federer def. Nicolas Almagro (6-3, 7-6, 6-2)
R32: Roger Federer def. Fernando Gonzalez (7-6, 7-5, 6-2)
R16: Roger Federer def. Carlos Moya (6-1, 6-4, 6-3)
QF: Roger Federer def. Victor Hanescu (6-2, 7-6, 6-3)
SF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-3, 4-6, 6-4, 6-3)
I mean look at that draw.
2006 French Open
R128: Roger Federer def. Diego Hartfield (7-5, 7-6, 6-2)
R64: Roger Federer def. Alejandro Falla (6-1, 6-4, 6-3)
R32: Roger Federer def. Nicolas Massu (6-1, 6-2, 6-7, 7-5)
R16: Roger Federer def. Tomas Berdych (6-3, 6-2, 6-3)
QF: Roger Federer def. Mario Ancic (6-4, 6-3, 6-4)
SF: Roger Federer def. David Nalbandian (3-6, 6-4, 5-2 ret.) Dave had him beat here before he got hurt.
F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (1-6, 6-1, 6-4, 7-6)
Meanwhile if we compare it to Pete 96. Pete had to beat Bruguera and Courier. What if instead Pete had that draw?
2002 French Open
R128: Hicham Arazi def. Roger Federer (6-3, 6-2, 6-4)
2003 French Open
R128: Luis Horna def. Roger Federer (7-6, 6-2, 7-6)
..... Meanwhile Pete has to play Agassi and Bruguera? in 92 and 93?
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abmk
Bionic Poster
Forget the peaks and primes for a moment. Sampras was a noob on grass till 92. However in 92 , he was getting comfortable and playing well.
He totally outclassed defending champ Stich in the QF of wimbledon - a match in which he played nearly as well as the overblown 99 wimbledon final, but doesn't get even 1% of the recognition ( except maybe by the most avid Sampras/tennis fans )
Goran beat a pretty good Sampras at wimbledon that year, although not quite the best Sampras
He totally outclassed defending champ Stich in the QF of wimbledon - a match in which he played nearly as well as the overblown 99 wimbledon final, but doesn't get even 1% of the recognition ( except maybe by the most avid Sampras/tennis fans )
Goran beat a pretty good Sampras at wimbledon that year, although not quite the best Sampras
Mustard
Bionic Poster
It would be better to compare Sampras with Djokovic in this particular instance. Both won a first major, and didn't win their second major until 3 years later.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
1992 Wimbledon was the best Ivanisevic. Sampras was playing his best at 1992 Wimbledon with the exception of having a lack of experience on the biggest stages there, whereas Ivanisevic had been in the Wimbledon semi finals before (1990).
Sampras at his best never loses to Goran except maybe once in a hundred times. That's not a knock on Goran's skill, but Sampras at his best is a better player, and far more mentally tough. The Sampras of 92 was simply not as mentally tough as the Sampras of later years. That's part of what made Sampras the best. Goran at his best vs Sampras at his best almost always will result in Goran choking at the most crucial points, with Sampras acing his way to victory.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Sampras lacked experience in 1992 in Wimbledon semi finals, and Ivanisevic was playing his best tennis. That's why Goran won. And your comment makes little sense. A few points in any of their 4 Wimbledon meetings would have changed the outcome. Name a player more of a threat to Sampras at Wimbledon than Ivanisevic, other than a peak Krajicek serving out of his mind?
The lack of "mental toughness" you're talking about with 1992 Sampras is a lack of experience of being clutch at the right moments in a Wimbledon semi final against peak Goran.
1) Goran won because he was playing close to his best/best and Sampras was not at his best yet.
2) Sampras at his best won the crucial points when he needed to, doesn't matter how much Sampras wins by especially when facing Goran. He just needs to win the ones that count, and that's what he did.
3) Ergo, Goran beat a Sampras that wasn't at his best, because Sampras didn't have the mental toughness to be the "best" incarnation of Sampras.
There weren't many threats to Sampras on grass, but Goran despite being able to push Sampras was never going to ever beat him with both at their peaks. Goran was ALWAYS going to choke at the key moments, and Sampras was ALWAYS going to come up with the goods when he needed to. When you watched Goran vs Sampras, you always felt that Goran in some form or fashion was going to blow it despite having the game to beat Sampras.
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Mustard
Bionic Poster
When did Federer lose to players like Schaller, Delgado and Blanco at the French Open? Horna in 2003 is probably the worst, but Federer was still an underachiever on the biggest stages at that point.
borg number one
Legend
Obviously, Sampras does not have stellar clay results, but there were many extremely good clay courters when he played. At that time, you had the variation in court speed, from red clay, to fast hard courts, fast indoor courts, and the faster courts at Wimbledon. You can point to weaknesses for any player in the argument as to the greatest player of all time, whether it's Nadal, Sampras, and any other all time great. I fully expect Nadal, once he's done, to be in that top tier of all time greats, which is an incredible accomplishment.
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
Great post. I think his dominance over Fed is doesn't need to be taken out of context. He has dominated Fed but the reality is when it's said and done, unless he gets past Sampras and Fed he will be number 3. I judge GOAT on dominance for a stretch of time. I don't think his style of play is going to allow him to dominate enough to come close in doing what Fed has done. Fed has done more for a far longer stretch of time. your numbers mentioned shows that.
NikeWilson
Semi-Pro
Trust me Novak fears an aging Fed now just as he did than
Nadal made it to the Finals of Indian Wells, Miami, and the US Open this year.
Are those not 3 of the top Hard Court tournaments that all the big names play at?
BULLZ1LLA
Banned
(The is no 25-year-old in history in contention for GOAT. You should make another thread "Argements against 25-year-old Federer to be GOAT"...)
C
celoft
Guest
Fact is current Prime Rafa (so called clay GOAT)would not have won a clay court title this year if Novak had played MonteCarlo and the true GOAT didn't give him the birthday gift of his life in defeating Novak at the French. Fed single-handedly gave Rafa his lone GS title this year. You can expect something similar if not worse to occur next year. So what does that tell you about Fed's clay court game vs Rafa's hard court game?
Federer is better at RG than Nadal is at the AO or USO.
Not really, Federer never has to beat Nadal at RG which IMO doesn't make his clay game better than Nadal's hard court game. Nadal had to play Federer at the AO and Djokovic (a respected hard court player) to get his titles.
C
celoft
Guest
Yes, really.
Wake me up when Nadal reaches 5 finals at the AO or at the USO like Federer reached 5 finals at RG.
BULLZ1LLA
Banned
(What had Federer won by age 25? Nadal has plenty of years left, and is now more consistent than ever on hardcourts)
C
celoft
Guest
Federer is not an early bloomer.
BULLZ1LLA
Banned
(And Nadal, while perhaps declining on clay, is only getting better on hardcourt. It's not as simple as one being an early bloomer and the other being a 'normal' bloomer. Nadal is peaking late on hardcourts, and maintaining his level on grass. Most unique player of all-time)
C
celoft
Guest
Nadal IS an early bloomer like Borg.
BULLZ1LLA
Banned
(Did Borg peak late on hardcourts? Nadal's best hardcourt slam is 2010, and followed that up with another US Open final this year and making the final of both Indian Wells and Miami [first time he's made both of those finals in the same year]. No connection with Borg)
No wonder you can't see, you were asleep
borg number one
Legend
Borg won about 23 indoor titles. So he could play extremely well on fast courts. In 4 hard court majors that he played in, he lost in three finals. He also won hard court titles. Nadal has evolved into a great player on all surfaces, but in Borg's time, the grass courts were faster, and you had fast indoor/hard courts as well. They didn't have a slower hard court major like the AO around either. Here's Borg in his last full year on tour, winnings indoors at Madison Square Garden in the YEC. He won in 1980 as well. Then, see him in the 1981 US Open SF vs. Connors. He was very tough on any surface, indoors, hard courts, clay, and grass. They had a nice variety of surfaces at that time, but the AO was not considered a big tourney, while the WCT and Masters tournaments were the fourth biggest tournament (depending on the years) during the time of Connors, Borg, and McEnroe. I don't think Nadal will necessarily decline on clay. I do think that he will contend for AO and US Open titles in the future.
(Borg vs. Lendl)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyuiEzBb7hk
(Borg vs. Connors)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOUb8m6-lH0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR_aYm-PyfA&feature=related
(Borg vs. Lendl)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyuiEzBb7hk
(Borg vs. Connors)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOUb8m6-lH0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR_aYm-PyfA&feature=related
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Manus Domini
Hall of Fame
Nadal's HC peak is matching Novak's peak.
Good luck to him in winning those titles...
Crisstti
Legend
He has three HC GS finals already. Him reaching 5 seems perfectly possible.
Clarky21
Banned
:lol: Not in a million years.
Manus Domini
Hall of Fame
5-1=4
5-2=3
So he'd have to make at least 3 AO finals or at least 4 USO finals to get that record...
_maxi
Banned
5+5 is 10, not 5
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