At The Racket Drop Position: Is the wrist in a neutral position? Or supinated?
- Thread starter Raul_SJ
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
The forearm should be supinated for the racket drop. (The forearm supinates the wrist, hand and racket). Failure to supinate might, possibly, result in a Waiter's Tray error.
Agree with SA, that forearm should be supinated. Basically, your palm should be facing your ear as you start to pull up out of drop.
I am guessing the question might also be asking the position of the wrist as it relates to the forearm. Is the wrist flexed forward, neutral or extended during the drop and as the foreward swing starts?
My guess is it is best to not muck with the wrist a lot but I think mine is neutral - not flexed forward or extended back very much in either direction.
I am guessing the question might also be asking the position of the wrist as it relates to the forearm. Is the wrist flexed forward, neutral or extended during the drop and as the foreward swing starts?
My guess is it is best to not muck with the wrist a lot but I think mine is neutral - not flexed forward or extended back very much in either direction.
Found this site with a few slow mo video of Federer, Sampras, Roddick and Scud serving. There are 5 pages and each page has slow-mo video with some of the drop and start of forward swing. It looks like they all have a fairly neutral wrist position. Maybe a very slight bit of extension as the forward upward portion of the swing out of the drop starts.
http://www.active.com/tennis/articles/federer-s-serve-a-model-of-perfection-879136
http://www.active.com/tennis/articles/federer-s-serve-a-model-of-perfection-879136
My impression is the wrist is somewhat to extremely extended, ie folded back, at drop, but neutral wrt supination. As they start up the wrist goes to a fully supinated position. Another way of putting it is that at drop, the racquest is parallel to their back but then it goes to edge on to the net.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Frank Salazar serve from above.
link no longer works
I don't know how carefully 'racket drop' has been defined but it looks as if the butt points up during racket drop and that supination occurs during the time that the butt points up. That is, at least for this Frank Salazar serve.
link no longer works
I don't know how carefully 'racket drop' has been defined but it looks as if the butt points up during racket drop and that supination occurs during the time that the butt points up. That is, at least for this Frank Salazar serve.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Yes, wrist extension happens during the racket drop phase. I believe that there is also a bit a radial deviation occurring. The shoulder is also externally rotated (ESR). If the racket drop included ESR and wrist extension w/o forearm supination, I believe that the palm would be facing skyward rather than facing more toward the ear. I don't believe that the racquet face would be parallel to the back (hitting face more or less toward the back), as you suggest, if the forearm was not supinated. It would be oriented in some other direction.
Dave Smith (Tennis Mastery), discusses supination in the following article at Hi-TechTennis:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/develop_kicker.php
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
It is hard to tell but it appears that Salozar's forearm is basically neutral when racket is pointing straight up (first pic above), and supinates slightly on the way up (second pic).
If I relax and just let the racket drop happen, the sensation I have is that the forearm is not supinating (palm is in a neutral position, facing towards the net).
If I experiment and actively supinate slightly (palm facing slightly more downwards towards the court) , I feel a bicep muscle stretch, and possibly more power.
Supination gives the feeling that I am going to hit the ball with the opposite side of the racket face, before it finally twists around to the front side.
Could this slight supination be storing and then releasing energy?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
^ Still believe that the palm would be facing more upward (in the 1st pic) if is wasn't supinated. Possibly further supination in the 2nd pic (above). I believe that the palm (forearm) is fairly neutral at the trophy but is rotated as the racket head drops. I feel that I get a much better racket drop with supination -- deeper and increased loading in the forearm.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
It is hard to tell but it appears that Salozar's forearm is basically neutral when racket is pointing straight up (first pic above), and supinates slightly on the way up (second pic).
If I relax and just let the racket drop happen, the sensation I have is that the forearm is not supinating (palm is in a neutral position, facing towards the net).
If I experiment and actively supinate slightly (palm facing slightly more downwards towards the court) , I feel a bicep muscle stretch, and possibly more power.
Supination gives the feeling that I am going to hit the ball with the opposite side of the racket face, before it finally twists around to the front side.
Could this slight supination be storing and then releasing energy?
The video was of a slice serve. These points might vary for kick and flat serves.
The forearm looks around fully supinated, near the end of its range of motion. Therefore, any additional lengthening of muscles stretches them and stores elastic energy. The second frame is hyper-supinated. The muscles stretched by hyper-supination can be used for pronation or possibly other joint motions.
The racket is perpendicular to the upper arm for full supination.
If you look at the features of the court in the background you can see accurately how the elbow, forearm and racket, etc. have moved from one frame to the next. See forearm relative to the baseline. The elbow accelerated forward and up. (up does not show well from the above view, it's produced by the shoulder-over-shoulder 'Cartwheel' motion). The upper body and upper arm do not appear to have accelerated much in rotation. In the two frames, the racket head seems to have lagged when the handle moved forward - the racket head stayed back - as the body moved forward and up. The racket head inertia appeared to cause the supination.
"If I experiment and actively supinate slightly (palm facing slightly more downwards towards the court) , I feel a bicep muscle stretch, and possibly more power." -- The biceps muscles shorten to cause supination so you should not feel a stretch near the end of supination's range of motion. When do you feel a biceps stretch?
Thank you Fuzzy Yellow Balls for these rare overhead views that are very informative. (Was a Cherry Picker used?)
It is too bad that we do not have more of these informative overhead views for the serve. Do other servers have more upper body rotation from trunk & pelvis motions than Frank Salazar. ?
Toly has paid attention to supination on the serve. Where is he lately?
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Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
I think you are right. Forearm supination occurs on the way down to racket drop... and I believe I get to a similar position as pic #1.
Was wondering whether to incorporate the "hyper supination" on the way up as in pic #2. If I do, I definitely feel the stretch in the muscles, but don't know if this runs counter to the idea of staying loose and relaxed with minimum tension... I believe I get more RHS with this extra supination as it causes the racket to rotate
more quickly up to contact.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I have not studied supination very much. My first thought has been that supination just happens with a relaxed arm as part of the service motions. From videos, I thought that it was mainly produced by centrifugal force from Trunk Twist/Turn, that is, from upper body rotation. But this Frank Salazar serve overhead video brings up some doubts on my centrifugal view. I'd like to see other high level servers from above to make sure that Frank Salazar serve is typical of high level serving techniques regarding upper body turn and supination.
Do you take high speed videos of your serves?
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
My tennis court has a balcony . That may be the best perspective? I still need to get a tripod for my Ipad 2.
Here is a video of other players that I took:
https://vid.me/yP4S
Take a look at this:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/tw_serve.php
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/tw_serve.php
Looking at the above video of Raonic, you can see how the phrase "racket drop" is a misleading phrase used all the time in instruction.
As the shoulders rotate upwards (the see-saw motion) and the elbow drives upwards, the racket is lagging behind. When people hear the phrase "racket drop" they stop in a drop position and then go upward. And this ruins the dynamic nature of the motion - where the shoulders and elbow are driving the stroke with the racket lagging behind. A previous post correctly identified the drop as "a moving position".
But of course there is a position where the racket is "dropped" and I think all the comments previously are absolutely right on the money.
As for Raul's post, "supination gives the feeling that I am going to hit the ball with the opposite side of the racket face, before it finally twists around to the front side. Could this slight supination be storing and then releasing energy?" - YES! In the Raonic clip above look how much how much twisting occurs coming into contact. That massive twist with wrist extension is an incredible release of energy.
Great posts guys - I am going through them all more closely.
Jeff
As the shoulders rotate upwards (the see-saw motion) and the elbow drives upwards, the racket is lagging behind. When people hear the phrase "racket drop" they stop in a drop position and then go upward. And this ruins the dynamic nature of the motion - where the shoulders and elbow are driving the stroke with the racket lagging behind. A previous post correctly identified the drop as "a moving position".
But of course there is a position where the racket is "dropped" and I think all the comments previously are absolutely right on the money.
As for Raul's post, "supination gives the feeling that I am going to hit the ball with the opposite side of the racket face, before it finally twists around to the front side. Could this slight supination be storing and then releasing energy?" - YES! In the Raonic clip above look how much how much twisting occurs coming into contact. That massive twist with wrist extension is an incredible release of energy.
Great posts guys - I am going through them all more closely.
Jeff
One more thing - this whole dynamic is so similar to a baseball pitch. Check this out and see the same "twist and release" Raul mentioned:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/high_speed/baseball.php
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/high_speed/baseball.php
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
I've tried both and both worked.
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