Automatic Drop Weight (ML 100, etc) vs Alpha Pioneer DC PLus

[GnRFan]

Hey,

Thanks for the reply Diredesire. I understand where you are coming from and I wish Il Monster or whatever he calls himself never came on here.

Just because someone is jealous that I am getting a free stringer from my gf doesn't mean they need to attack me.

In fact I don't understand the general attitude on this forum of so and so stringers being expensive and someone who has one being lucky. If you live in a 1st world country you can literally go out and make $3000 a month with 2 jobs and there you have your Star 5 in 1.5 months. Not too difficult.

Maybe I shouldn't have ragged on the DG. After reading about it with the upgraded Aria clamps it does sound like a good machine. I still don't understand the 1 year electronics warranty. When you compare that with the 10 year SW warranty, and the fact that it is all mechanical, to me it is a better decision to go with the SW.

I will probably only be stringing on average, year round including winter twice per month. I love the fact that it's an all mechanical design using the laws of physics. If I put the machine away for the winter, I know it will work just as good as I left it for next season. I don't want to have to worry about warranties and whether or not the electronics on a particular machine will work the next year.

Again, I stand corrected. I am sure the DG will tension just as accurately as the SW ML 100. You always have to look at things from my perspective. Most good electronic machines are $3000+. I seen that the DG was $1000 and figured it was just another low priced fancy machine that won't deliver.

If I wanted an electronic machine I would either get the DG or the Aria. In fact if I wanted my gf would buy me the Aria even, but again as I said I like the all mechanical design of the ML 100.

And lastly, yes I was a bit partial to the ML 100... Can anyone blame me? I read about it a bit before coming on here and posting this message, and everyone was enthusiastic about it. I knew it would be easier and faster to use than the Pioneer DC Plus. I was looking to get pushed towards buying one, but I also wanted to find out if there were any disadvantages like every machine has. I found out about the non 360 degree rotation, no table lock, and finally the small amount of drawback with the clamps (this is common on almost all machines I have read).

So thanks to Diredesire, James Bond, and anyone else that has come on here and mentioned their experience with the ML 100.

I have decided to go for the tabletop SW ML 100 with DA clamps. I can always upgrade to the single action if the DA aren't my cup of tea.

All the Best,

Cody

 

[superstition]

snip

You provide interesting information and make some good points. Why spoil that with personal attack?

...I wish Il Monster or whatever he calls himself never came on here.

That's not helpful, either.

 

[Il Mostro]

Hey,

Il Mostro... Don't get your panties in a bunch.

You own a DG so you obviously don't like it when someone says low end electric because that is what your machine is.

Is SP a good company? Yeah I want their Pro Ball Machine, and I am sure their stringers are pretty good. I don't string enough rackets to get an electronic and I trust an all mechanical system more than an electric one. No adjustments necessary.

You like the DG because you own one. You want to think you got a stringer that is exceptional but then you have to realize there is a reason the best electronic machines range from $3000 - $8000. Its common sense. And to say that the DG is better in every regard is silly. Every machine has some disadvantages and I have read about the DG's.

Stop going whacko because someone doesn't want your machine and wants something better.

Cody

Stating the facts and setting the record straight -- nothing more, nothing less. I have strung on the TF6000 and maintain that the functionality, ease of getting the job done and accuracy is the same. For commercial applications, there are obvious benefits to the $3-6,000 machines. BTW, I think most people would consider USRSA an objective and credible source, so I encouraged people to read their review. Please explain how this is whacko. You need a reality check.

 

[SethR]

December 2, 2005 - Invoice # 4801 - Laserfibre MS200tt w/DA clamps- $630.

August 2008 - $900

48% increase in price in two and a half years. Same machine. Enjoy your purchase.

 

[GnRFan]

Hey,

Il Mostro. I have already since stated that what I have said about the DG may have been a mistake. It actually sounds like it is a bargain machine for what you get. I am sure most if not all other companies offer what the DG is for that price, hence assuming is was a low end electronic machine.

You also stated that the DG outclasses the ML 100 in every matter. Have you used the ML 100. Can you really comment on that?

I don't want to get into endless bickering. If you want an electronic machine, you most likely made the right choice. If I wanted an electronic machine under 2k I would either go for the Aria or the DG with the upgraded clamps like you have.

Seth - You haven't done much with this conversation other than mention Laserfibre a few times. I am interested in getting an actual machine not a promise. If the quantum was actually out and being sent to people without backorder, then I might order if the machine was talked well about.

All the Best,

Cody

 

[1012007]

Cody where do you live? In EU??

 

[SethR]

GnRFan - I only mentioned my new machine once because as you mentioned to Il Mostro, you asked to hear from people who used a SW/LF ML100/200tt. I have, but your mind is closed. I offered other options that I thought for the money, were better options since I owned a 220tt. It's no problem if you want to circle everything back to the ML100.

The prices I listed above were for diredesire's reference. He said the machines always sold for around $800 - $900. He's wrong. I paid $629 for my 200tt. They cost 50% more today than 2 and a half years ago. Doesn't matter to me what you get. You're the angry one. I offered my best wishes. Enjoy it.

Too bad my vaykay ends Tuesday. I'm gonna miss you all on a daily basis.

 

[GnRFan]

Hey,

No hard feelings Seth, I have just seen you talking about a machine that doesn't seem purchasable in other threads. You offered a SP DG or a Neos. I don't want either crank or Electronic so I thought my best option was a drop weight.

If I wasn't going to get the ML 100 I would probably go for the DG with the upgraded clamps like Il Mostro has. You have said the clamps on the LF/SW are crap yet everyone else that has reported on this board (I have read as many threads about SW/LF as possible) have said the clamps are high end clamps that don't slip, and have a slight amount of drawback. Almost every machine has some amount of drawback.

Does anyone know what the actual difference between the DG and the Aria in terms of the tensioner? I know both are constant pull but the DG says: Electronic tensioner: microprocessor technology with potentiometer

And the Aria says: Ultra sensitive electronic linear tensioner uses load-cell microprocessor technology.

All the Best,

Cody

 

[diredesire]

December 2, 2005 - Invoice # 4801 - Laserfibre MS200tt w/DA clamps- $630.

August 2008 - $900

48% increase in price in two and a half years. Same machine. Enjoy your purchase.

That's incredible, I bought my machine used in that time frame for about $550. I had been looking at the laserfibre machines in that time period (earlier, even) and ALL prices I had seen were higher than what you got. See below for reference:
http://www.stringforum.net/mforum.php?show=stringway_ml100&model=Stringway ML100
http://www.stringforum.net/mforum.php?show=laserfibre_ms200tt&model=Laserfibre MS200 TT
(If I am to believe stringforum's reviews, someone bought theirs nearly a year earlier and paid $200+ more!)

This is only a year later:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=101929

(This isn't to discredit you, but to show where I'm coming from)

GnRFan - I only mentioned my new machine once because as you mentioned to Il Mostro, you asked to hear from people who used a SW/LF ML100/200tt. I have, but your mind is closed. I offered other options that I thought for the money, were better options since I owned a 220tt. It's no problem if you want to circle everything back to the ML100.

The prices I listed above were for diredesire's reference. He said the machines always sold for around $800 - $900. He's wrong. I paid $629 for my 200tt. They cost 50% more today than 2 and a half years ago. Doesn't matter to me what you get. You're the angry one. I offered my best wishes. Enjoy it.

Too bad my vaykay ends Tuesday. I'm gonna miss you all on a daily basis.

Yep, looks like I'm wrong, unless you received the "updated" 200TT, without the automatically locking arm. In that case, we had different machines, I had the old 200TT, which would now(?) be called the Premium. If that is the case, I've been talking about something completely (sort of) different this entire time, but my prices are approximately right for the premium (which used to be the 200TT).

 

[superstition]

The $1,000 ML 100 (or even $600 ML in a different currency exchange world) is more closely related to the good old Klippermate...

Hyperbole?

The OP keeps harping... He is like an old lady about accuracy, repeating this mantra over and over and over...

The OP came into this post with terminal myopia. He made up his mind that the ML100 was *it*. No problem, it's his money and his life. Well really, his GF's money.

But his statements, and the mod's (*who* should know better) made blanket statements regarding *low end* electronic machines when the SP DG was the *only* electronic recommended by more than one and, may I add, savvy poster.

Are you two twinkies nuts? Do your homework before opening your mouths. It pains me to have uninformed, uneducated wannabes throw the baby out with the dirty water.

I feel compelled to set the record straight for future reference -- *not* to sway twits like the the OP or the not-so-informed mod. ... who is paying for this yobbo's machine in the first place. You know the old saying? "Shut up, listen, learn".

Stating the facts and setting the record straight -- nothing more, nothing less.

You need a reality check

Indeed. Nothing more nothing less doesn't include calling people twits. More info, less swagger.

 

[JamesBond]

Stating the facts and setting the record straight -- nothing more, nothing less. I have strung on the TF6000 and maintain that the functionality, ease of getting the job done and accuracy is the same. For commercial applications, there are obvious benefits to the $3-6,000 machines. BTW, I think most people would consider USRSA an objective and credible source, so I encouraged people to read their review. Please explain how this is whacko. You need a reality check.

Here is a post written by you last June :
Quote :

06-13-2008, 03:28 AM #1 Il Mostro
Professional



Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sunny SoCal
Posts: 845

*Learn* more w/manual vs. electronic?
Sorry if this is off-the-wall, but is there any inherent benefit to learning how to string on a manually operated machine versus and electronic one?

I guess drop weights are at the extreme end of the spectrum, and I am wondering whether there is more to be learned via more tactile and physical involvement with the machine and a closer "connection" to the strings.

I am confident in my ability to learn stringing and I've zeroed in on a few mid level machines, including one electronic (SP DG), to save myself the angst of traveling on the upgrade road right away. But, will I actually learn more about the craft and develop more "feel" my using something basic in the beginning and moving on later?

This isn't about whether I want a drop weight to just dip my toe in the water and see if I like stringing, but whether I can get smarter using one at the start.

Thanks in advance.
________________
Unquote.

It's amazing how your attitude has changed in the last 2 months. Maybe you have learnt how to string now, you certainly don't have any respect for those of us who have been stringing for many years.

I find the contents of your posts to be unacceptable, full of uncalled for insults from someone who apparantly doesn't know much about what he talking about.

Your opinion could be interesting if correctly presented, why try to bring other posters down to your level, you too could listen and learn without having to "shut up".

This was an interesting topic and you've really done your best to make a mess of it. Only SethR has managed to stay in his usual bashing SW mode, but at least DD has shown that there is quite a difference in price between the LF TT ECO and the LF TT Premium, so we can forgive him for his errors of calculation.

It's interesting that every topic on stringing machines ends up in personal conflicts. It really is unpleasant, always the same crap and like a bad smell, it just doesn't go away.

 

[Il Mostro]

Actually, a lot has changed. I went into the process completely open minded and researched the heck out of it. I also made it a point to spend several hour-long sessions with a MRT and have been able to string on several machines as a result of this and the generosity of friends at pro shops once I got my chops down. There was clearly nothing to be gained by going the manual route, but I left it open as an early option. What's the problem with that? I'd hardly call this thread an interesting topic. Again, if going drop weight, the Alpha plus cash is the smart move. If looking for more features and flexibility, $1K electronics are a better buy. Or a good crank with a Wise. Again, just stating the facts. Are you that thick in the head that you don't get it?

 

[GnRFan]

Hey,

James Bond, I guess you have a thick head because you don't agree with Il Mostro. When you point the finger Il Mostro, look at where the other four are pointing.

Because you own a DG you are stating its a better buy. You are completely subjective.

BTW I was reading from one user that the motor on the DG didn't seem as active as other motors, say the Babolat Star 5. Has anyone done any tests on both machines or on rackets done by both machines to see what the results are. From everthing I have read about the ML 100 it strings pretty darn close to poundage chosen, and the string bed doesn't lose it's stiffness as fast as say with a crank. It would be interesting to see what the DG is like.

All the Best,

Cody

 

[Il Mostro]

Dude, it is true *constant pull*. It keeps continually adjusting and pulling as it should. It tested +/- 0.0 out of the box. It strings *exactly* at the poundage chosen, with tenth of a pound increments, not "pretty close". Also, it pulls at 3 different speeds, has variable pre-stretch and over tensioning for knots. Where did you read about the motor "not being active"? Not my experience -- and FWIW the motor feels, sounds and works like the TF or other up-line machines. Read USRSA if you want an objective and expert POV.

 

[Bud]

Hey man,

You shouldn't encourage me, I have too much to talk about if you get me started, there's no limit to my passion for stringing.

It all depends on what you want from your machine. At the time I bought my Stringway ML.100, there was an option for a stand, but I thought it was too expensive, because you couldn't change the height of the machine, I'm tall and stringing on a table or a work-bench is too low for me and I get tired in my back after a short time, but even with the SW stand it was not high enough for me. It didn't take long for me to regret the lack of a stand and a tool tray, it's really much easier to string if the machine is free standing.

About 2 years ago this optionnal stand was abandoned and SW introduced the ML.120 which has the same base (stand) as the MS.200, but once again it is not possible to change the height. Never-the-less, this machine is very good for a Pro Shop, free standing and very stable, it takes up a lot more place, is difficult to transport, but if you don't need to move the machine (or store it in a small place), I think that the extra US$300 is very worth while.

I went my own way, frustrated to not find exactly what I wanted for my machine I ended up getting one made especially for me. A lot of messing around to find the right solutions, but today I'm very happy with the result.

I don't mind showing you what I have had made :

but I doubt that you would be interested, if I wanted to make another stand like this it would cost about US$250. An English company is interested in selling the product if there is enough interest in the stand, but it's still very small scale and not available on the market yet.

On the good side, it's very light about 12lbs, very well made of polished nickel-chromed steel, satin finished, very compact and easy to put together and take apart, great for easy storage and for travelling. In fact with this stand I have managed to transform the ML.100 into a fantastic portable machine which I put into a small case on wheels that I can easily take with me when I string on tournaments. This was the main reason that I switched to SW flying clamps, my T.92 SA fixed clamps are quite heavy, by replacing them with the flying clamps I saved 8lbs on the total weight of my "portable machine".

It was my objective to have a complet stringing set-up that weighs less than 20kgs (44lbs) so that I could send it as checked baggage when I take a plane trip. Every kilo saved was a step closer to my goal, finally it's about 40lbs.

What's even better is that the machine does a fantastic job, the results are really great, I love stringing with the floaters.

Today, every time I set up my machine (it takes less than 10 minutes) people in the clubs can't believe their eyes, but I still need to make some improvements. I am in fact working on a tool tray and other small details to make it even more compact, I have a margin of 3-4lbs to play with and the motivation to find the best solutions. I will keep you updated if you are interested.

Sorry to go into so many details, I just get carried away . . .
JB.

That's a great looking machine! I love the SW machines with the floating clamps.

 

[Tobago]

That's a great looking machine! I love the SW machines with the floating clamps.

Hey Bud,
You and me both, I love my ML.100 with floaters, but to see it on a stand is really impressive. That's pretty costly, but if it's light, compact and easy to set up and take down then that should be an interesting solution to pack it away when not using it.

I've my machine on a small work-bench (cheap and nasty) which is a bit too low, but I leave it there all the time and it takes a lot of place that could be better used. If I could put it all in one of those plastic tool boxes and stick it on a shelf, my wife would be happier. (a bonus !!) :twisted:

That's cool JB, you've given me some new ideas. If it comes on the market give me a buzz, I might just be interested, as long as it's not too much.

 

[SethR]

James Bond, I am not bashing SW. I offered my opinion based on use of several machines. The SW machine was okay. Just okay. That makes them highly overrated based on your enthusiasm. Diredesire pointed nothing out. He is wrong. I paid $629 for the 200tt with the locking arm. For anybody to compare a ML100 or 200tt to a 3 grand machine needs their heads examined.

 

[Bud]

James Bond, I am not bashing SW. I offered my opinion based on use of several machines. The SW machine was okay. Just okay. That makes them highly overrated based on your enthusiasm. Diredesire pointed nothing out. He is wrong. I paid $629 for the 200tt with the locking arm. For anybody to compare a ML100 or 200tt to a 3 grand machine needs their heads examined.

It sounds like you're another one of the brainwashed who thinks the more something costs the better it is :roll:

 

[GnRFan]

Hey,

Yes, Seth, we have already discussed and it is common knowledge that a $3000 machine is going to be faster. I Babolat Star 5 isn't going to pull tension any better than an ML 100 based on simple physics. Also from all accounts the ML 100 inside mounting system is among the best in the business. The only place the Star 5 is going to win is in the cool factor, speed, and possibly drawback.

Cody

 

[SethR]

Bud, you missed my point. It was the opposite. I said I paid $600+ for a machine that now costs $1000 just a couple of years later. I said that it is not worth it to spend more. In the case of my experience with the 200tt, you could spend a lot less and get much more machine, like a Revo. Let's not kid ourselves, comparing a SW to a Babolat star5 or prince 5000 would have to be loony. Build quality the same? I'm sure it is not even close. Finished string job? Maybe if you work at it.

 

[diredesire]

Hey,

Yes, Seth, we have already discussed and it is common knowledge that a $3000 machine is going to be faster. I Babolat Star 5 isn't going to pull tension any better than an ML 100 based on simple physics. Also from all accounts the ML 100 inside mounting system is among the best in the business. The only place the Star 5 is going to win is in the cool factor, speed, and possibly drawback.

Cody

We're talking about "winning" in the sense that it will suit your needs/do something well. In terms of a comparison, the Star 5 is in a different class, just as the ML100 is compared to the Pioneer DC. The Star5 can do several things that you simply can't on a ML100.

The ML100 is a good machine, I think we can agree to that, but there is a lot more to a machine than simply pulling tension. I think the big picture here is that Seth thinks there is better places you can spend the money, and a few of us disagree. I agree with Seth that the cost/performance ratio is higher nowadays due to the exchange rates, and that sucks. However, I think that the ML100 is still a good machine that will give you years of solid performance, so if you can personally justify picking the machine up, it's all good.

 

[GnRFan]

Hey,

Yes the Star 5 is in a different class, hell the pro's string with. I am just saying for $1000 bucks you can get something that is relatively easy to use from reading peoples posts that will give you just as consistent as a string job as the Star 5.

I guess you could say the same thing about the Pioneer DC Plus but then again the bar would have to be perfectly horizontal on all the pulls.

Cody

 

[!Tym]

Bud, you missed my point. It was the opposite. I said I paid $600+ for a machine that now costs $1000 just a couple of years later. I said that it is not worth it to spend more. In the case of my experience with the 200tt, you could spend a lot less and get much more machine, like a Revo. Let's not kid ourselves, comparing a SW to a Babolat star5 or prince 5000 would have to be loony. Build quality the same? I'm sure it is not even close. Finished string job? Maybe if you work at it.

I think you got a bum 200TT. The build quality has been superb on my ML100 for nearly a decade now. It's given me rock solid professional results for all that time, I've strung for low level pros who loved the string jobs I produced with it and would come back for more whenever they were back in town training. The mounting system I prefer to six-pt, period, hands down, no questions asked. Maybe you just got unlucky, because by and large most of use Strungway owners have been more than satisified with our purchasing decision.

This said, I agree that for the money now, the DG with the upgraded clamps is the better choice. This said, were I to only be stringing my own rackets, I'd always prefer my rackets mounted on the Strungway mounting system.

I don't like rotational grippers personally, and also the Wise has been purported to have gripping problems after some use. I've never had such problems with my ML100 after nearly a decade, not even with gut, not with poly, not with nothing. That's one of the things I love about it. It's gripper system, so easy and dummy proof and effective. The pumping, if you have a bum shoulder like Diredesire, I could see it being bothersome; but personally it's not really something I notice or consider labor. To me, it's pretty effortless.

The reason I'd want to add a Wise to my ML100 is because I like having an automatic prestretch function on some strings (I think knot overtensioning is pointless and just a frills gimic personally), and I also think it'd be just a hair more accurate and easier...that and it simply looks cooler and is easier to sell to others as a feature than a "smart" dropweight. This said, the recent reports I've read on here about people having problems with the Wise gripping strings after some use is very concerning to me and has scared me away. The gripper part of the equation has always been very important to me when it comes to stringing. One of the reasons I love the Strungway clamps is that I pretty much NEVER have to adjust the clamping teeth pressure. Gut, multis, super thins, makes no difference; they've ALWAYS held for me 110% perfectly securely without damaging the strings. In this regard, the Strungway clamps are right up there with the very best on the market. The problem with them is that they have a little more drawback than some others. How much of a problem this really is, is debatable. The hiccupy movement of the double action Strungway's across the tracks is EASILY solved with a little silicon spray or teflon spray. After that, they glide along as if on ice with little to no resistance whatsoever. The positive locking lever gives a nice reassuring feel, and the lubricant sprays don't make any difference in the drawback that I've seen. If you're willing to accept the little extra drawback, I really don't see the downside to their clamps personally. Their single action clamps, for those looking to save a little time and gain a little convenience? What other options are there out there for single action designs that allow fan pattern stringing and full 360? Exactly. It fills a market niche.

The MS200 upright foot loaded tensioner? I think that also has a niche for people who want constant pull machine results but at lightning speed, with minimal foot print, and no having to be tethered to a power cord.

 

[souledge]

December 2, 2005 - Invoice # 4801 - Laserfibre MS200tt w/DA clamps- $630.

August 2008 - $900

48% increase in price in two and a half years. Same machine. Enjoy your purchase.

12/1/2005: 534.80 EUR
8/1/2008: 576.96 EUR

Apparently the whole world doesn't exist in USD alone.

God, I just can't stand people who don't understand anything about world currencies.