Back scratch on tennis serve

[razor]

I am trying to recreate my serve as it appears I back scratch on the serve and its now just become ingrained muscle memory. Essentially when I serve different coaches tell me i stop my racquet on my back and then serve from there instead of doing it all as one smooth motion (then they all go its muscle memory).

Anyone with any tips on how get myself to not touch my back on my serve?

I was thinking this might help - https://tennisevolution.com/tennis-serve-tip-the-trophy-position-hold-drill/

 

[ballmachineguy]

You are doing a lot wrong, if touching your back with the racquet is an issue.

 

[razor]

Well they say that I stop and then serve rather than doing it as one motion

 

[Dragy]

Well they say that I stop and then serve rather than doing it as one motion

If you had to throw a ball at high arc, how would it look? Do you have solid pitching mechanics?

 

[razor]

Think my serve just has bad habits and just after if anyone had ideas or good video to build it back up from scratch

 

[Dragy]

Think my serve just has bad habits and just after if anyone had ideas or good video to build it back up from scratch

This guy covers number of basics, explains in detail and shows some drills. It’s headed as “beginner’s..” but perfectly suits to rebuild, don’t get turned off.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Just to be clear, there should be no backscratch on the serve. Backscratch was a misleading term that coaches started using decades ago.

Are you using a Continental grip? Best to do so if you can. If that’s a bit too challenging, you might try the semi-Continental (Aussie) grip instead.

To rebuild your serve, I’d strongly suggest starting with a half-serve motion. The racket arm starts with a 90° bend at the elbow. You would start the racket and racket arm in a “salute” position — A little bit before the conventional trophy position. Do not move the racket from this position while you are tossing the ball.

Once you’ve tossed the ball and are ready to swing, move thru the trophy phase, racket drop phase, and upward swing without stopping the racket. Gradually picking up speed in those 1st two phases & then significantly accelerating it during the upward swing.

Check out the 1st video below for a good “salute” position (after the 1:14 mark). Also pay attention to his “comb the hair” instruction.

 

[nyta2]

Well they say that I stop and then serve rather than doing it as one motion

do the sock drill:

 

[TennisDawg]

When you do the racquet drop instead of bending your arm at a 90 degree angle go forless angle. General rule of thumb your hand (holding the racquet) should be positioned by your upper arm, not in scratch your back position. Then accelerate your arm from there.

 

[razor]

do the sock drill:

Thanks I think that’s exactly what’s wrong with my serve. Notice how he says you don’t want to stop, I think that’s what I’m doing!

Yes I use continental grip @previous poster been playing tennis for years just my serve fell apart (got the tips) years ago and I’m trying to make it work well again.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

When you do the racquet drop instead of bending your arm at a 90 degree angle go forless angle. General rule of thumb your hand (holding the racquet) should be positioned by your upper arm, not in scratch your back position. Then accelerate your arm from there.

Are you suggesting a smaller internal angle (more flexion)? Why would you do that? That's the way I was serving back in the '70s and '80s cuz of the misleading backscratch instruction.

At some time during the '90s, I got away from the backscratch and learned to keep the flexion angle pretty close to 90° for both the trophy phase & drop phase. This way I was able to get a better stretch of the internal rotators (with ESR) and less reliance on an excessive elbow flexion. This resulted an improved ISR (w/ pronation) during the upward swing.

There is still an elbow extension during the 1st "half" of the upward swing but not quite as much as there was with the exaggerated drop flexion. I found that the improved ESR/ISR more easily generated more RHS (& was a bit easier to time).

 

[Icsa]

do the sock drill:

The sock drill is a good starting point to learn a fluid motion from beginning to the end. You can follow up with doing the same drill but using your racquet without actually hitting the ball. Do this over and over again until you get the right rhythm. Eventually you will get to:

 

[nyta2]

The sock drill is a good starting point to learn a fluid motion from beginning to the end. You can follow up with doing the same drill but using your racquet without actually hitting the ball. Do this over and over again until you get the right rhythm. Eventually you will get to:

at some point i think the OP is going to be stumbling on the question of "lag serve" vs. "pause at trophy serve"... ;P
either are fine IMO... key is not to pause during the "back scratch".

 

[Icsa]

at some point i think the OP is going to be stumbling on the question of "lag serve" vs. "pause at trophy serve"... ;P
either are fine IMO... key is not to pause during the "back scratch".

The main reason people stop during back scratch is timing. They start the motion too early and then stop because the ball is not in the right place yet. To get to a fluid motion you need to time the toss and the racquet movement just right. And for that you need practice, practice, practice x 100s. Watching a youtube video and telling yourself what to do is not enough, in fact the more you think about what to do during a serve, the more trouble you have timing everything together.

 

[nyta2]

The main reason people stop during back scratch is timing. They start the motion too early and then stop because the ball is not in the right place yet. To get to a fluid motion you need to time the toss and the racquet movement just right. And for that you need practice, practice, practice x 100s. Watching a youtube video and telling yourself what to do is not enough, in fact the more you think about what to do during a serve, the more trouble you have timing everything together.

i think the main reason people stop at backscratch is cuz it's unnatural for many to let the racquet loop behind the back... much easier to do the "cast a fishing line" or "pull the sword from the sheath" motion AND time contact with the toss...
i find that motion unnatural when i serve lefty (non-dominant)... it's very conscious effort for me... i have to remind myself to stay loose during that phase to let the racquet loop... my tendency is to tighten my grip & guide the racquet to contact like i'm "casting a fishing line"... my right side is "automatic".

 

[razor]

The main reason people stop during back scratch is timing. They start the motion too early and then stop because the ball is not in the right place yet. To get to a fluid motion you need to time the toss and the racquet movement just right. And for that you need practice, practice, practice x 100s. Watching a youtube video and telling yourself what to do is not enough, in fact the more you think about what to do during a serve, the more trouble you have timing everything together.

This might actually be big part of the reason too but I often literally have the racquet fully touching my back and no pro servers do that

 

[razor]

The main reason people stop during back scratch is timing. They start the motion too early and then stop because the ball is not in the right place yet. To get to a fluid motion you need to time the toss and the racquet movement just right. And for that you need practice, practice, practice x 100s. Watching a youtube video and telling yourself what to do is not enough, in fact the more you think about what to do during a serve, the more trouble you have timing everything together.

Sounds like I need to pay someone to just stand behind me and watch me serve ball after ball.

 

[Icsa]

This might actually be big part of the reason too but I often literally have the racquet fully touching my back and no pro servers do that

My advice would be to forget all about "touching your back" and replace that with leading with your elbow when you start accelerating up towards the ball. This will automatically create a racquet drop that you should not need to think about.

 

[razor]

My advice would be to forget all about "touching your back" and replace that with leading with your elbow when you start accelerating up towards the ball. This will automatically create a racquet drop that you should not need to think about.

Yep I don’t even want to, it just happens - and from what someone mentioned above maybe it’s because of the timing of the ball toss. But I think that is only partly it and it’s must a bad habit also.

Thanks for the suggestions all

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Yep I don’t even want to, it just happens - and from what someone mentioned above maybe it’s because of the timing of the ball toss. But I think that is only partly it and it’s must a bad habit also.

Thanks for the suggestions all

A lot of rec servers will pause during the racket drop phase cuz they are trying to implement a Down Together, Up Together pendulum rhythm— both arms moving in unison. Becuz the racket + arm is longer than the balls + tossing arm and often moves thru a longer path, the racket arm moves much faster to keep up. This often results in overshoot— aka racket leak.

One way to overcome this is to delay the racket arm relative to the tossing arm. Often referred to as a Staggered serve rhythm.

Perhaps an easier way to resolve this is to employ an Abbreviated serve rhythm. This can also be achieved with a Stagger. Alternately, the server can pause at a Salute position or a Power position (a bit before the conventional trophy position).

The easiest way to avoid a racket leak pause might be to use the half-serve motion that I suggested previously.

 

[nyta2]

Sounds like I need to pay someone to just stand behind me and watch me serve ball after ball.

A lot of rec servers will pause during the racket drop phase cuz they are trying to implement a Down Together, Up Together pendulum rhythm— both arms moving in unison. Becuz the racket + arm is longer than the balls + tossing arm and often moves thru a longer path, the racket arm moves much faster to keep up. This often results in overshoot— aka racket leak.

One way to overcome this is to delay the racket arm relative to the tossing arm. Often referred to as a Staggered serve rhythm.

Perhaps an easier way to resolve this is to employ an Abbreviated serve rhythm. This can also be achieved with a Stagger. Alternately, the server can pause at a Salute position or a Power position (a bit before the conventional trophy position).

The easiest way to avoid a racket leak pause might be to use the half-serve motion that I suggested previously.

a drill i did with the hs students:
i have them do the swing continuously
i have they close their eyes and go through their motion
in the beginning they would swing under the ball
then they would eventually adjust their toss/swing timing until they make contact

side note i think it's ok to do up/down together, but need to pause at trophy.. but i prefer the lag rythm (to OP: toss, then a moment later, start the swing). some tennis.yt did a survey, and mentioned like 80-90% of atp do the lag... i think i changed my motion around the time of that video :

 

[TennisDawg]

Are you suggesting a smaller internal angle (more flexion)? Why would you do that? That's the way I was serving back in the '70s and '80s cuz of the misleading backscratch instruction.

At some time during the '90s, I got away from the backscratch and learned to keep the flexion angle pretty close to 90° for both the trophy phase & drop phase. This way I was able to get a better stretch of the internal rotators (with ESR) and less reliance on an excessive elbow flexion. This resulted an improved ISR (w/ pronation) during the upward swing.

There is still an elbow extension during the 1st "half" of the upward swing but not quite as much as there was with the exaggerated drop flexion. I found that the improved ESR/ISR more easily generated more RHS (& was a bit easier to time).

Yes, less than 90 degrees. I don’t like to get into measuring angles with a protractor. The angle will vary some between players but I believe not a lot.. Take a look at Serena’s serve posted in another post. It’s less than 90. I’ve looked at a lot of advanced serves they all do the same. It’s not a back scratch as there is spacing between your arm and back. Keeping your elbow fixed while still at 90 degrees as much as possible as you began your racquet drop helps prevent the back scratch. But, once you’re into the drop decrease the angle. It’s also an advanced serve so you supinate as you go into peak acceleration with elbow leading and into extension and contact.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Yes, less than 90 degrees. I don’t like to get into measuring angles with a protractor. The angle will vary some between players but I believe not a lot.. Take a look at Serena’s serve posted in another post. It’s less than 90. I’ve looked at a lot of advanced serves they all do the same.

This is an interesting topic and I agree that there is a certain type of serve that does what you say; a lot of "on edge" racquet droppers will fold the arm in as it enters that phase (Serena as you say, I posted a series of images with Samsonova doing something even more extreme, and Barty is another) but they all quickly come out of that position and when they are at the deepest part of the drop, their arm has returned to 90.

The open dropper on the other hand (Sampras, Becker, Raonic on first serves, Safin etc) do maintain an angle closer to 90 from trophy through the drop. Since the OP is a back scratcher by nature, it might be better to experiment with that method trying to maintain the 90, since it is more of an exaggeration. But maybe not.

Personally, since this is muscle memory, I don't think the full motion can be utilised until that undesired back scratch action is eliminated using a "half" serve, or some other method that helps do so.

Half serve drill to help with timing of leg drive and racquet drop:

Here is a video covering the "dangle" drop among other things; the concept of the two part swing (stopping at the correct place) might also help you eliminate the problem. I think this entire video could prove useful, starting at about 3:12 (timestamped).

 

[ballmachineguy]

There is no such thing as muscle memory. If you do something the same way over and over again the same way while trying to do it differently that’s just a lack of ability.

 

[TennisDawg]

This is an interesting topic and I agree that there is a certain type of serve that does what you say; a lot of "on edge" racquet droppers will fold the arm in as it enters that phase (Serena as you say, I posted a series of images with Samsonova doing something even more extreme, and Barty is another) but they all quickly come out of that position and when they are at the deepest part of the drop, their arm has returned to 90.

The open dropper on the other hand (Sampras, Becker, Raonic on first serves, Safin etc) do maintain an angle closer to 90 from trophy through the drop. Since the OP is a back scratcher by nature, it might be better to experiment with that method trying to maintain the 90, since it is more of an exaggeration. But maybe not.

Personally, since this is muscle memory, I don't think the full motion can be utilised until that undesired back scratch action is eliminated using a "half" serve, or some other method that helps do so.

Half serve drill to help with timing of leg drive and racquet drop:

Here is a video covering the "dangle" drop among other things; the concept of the two part swing (stopping at the correct place) might also help you eliminate the problem. I think this entire video could prove useful, starting at about 3:12 (timestamped).

Notice the decrease in the angle as Sampras goes from trophy to racquet drop. I’m not suggesting all advanced servers have exactly 90 degrees but instead that there is a decrease in the angle, some more, some less.This also appears to point the butt cap up which makes for a better racquet drop. I’m also suggesting a remedy for avoiding back scratch is to maintain the elbow position on the take back until you go into the forward/upward swing into full elbow extension with ESR to ISR.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Notice the decrease in the angle as Sampras goes from trophy to racquet drop. I’m not suggesting all advanced servers have exactly 90 degrees but instead that there is a decrease in the angle, some more, some less.This also appears to point the butt cap up which makes for a better racquet drop. I’m also suggesting a remedy for avoiding back scratch is to maintain the elbow position on the take back until you go into the forward/upward swing into full elbow extension with ESR to ISR.

Not really seeing it to be honest, and the angles in that video make an accurate analysis difficult, since parts of the motion appear to be hidden. Check this one out at 1:36.

Imo that gives a good camera angle of the hitting arm relationship, from trophy through to contact; to me it stays relatively the same, with no folding in (maybe a small amount?) or significant changing of the angle, and far more shoulder lay back. You may not agree. It happens!

But that doesn't matter either since some pros clearly do fold in, so on its own it can't be wrong to do that.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Yes, less than 90 degrees. I don’t like to get into measuring angles with a protractor. The angle will vary some between players but I believe not a lot.. Take a look at Serena’s serve posted in another post. It’s less than 90. I’ve looked at a lot of advanced serves they all do the same. It’s not a back scratch as there is spacing between your arm and back. Keeping your elbow fixed while still at 90 degrees as much as possible as you began your racquet drop helps prevent the back scratch. But, once you’re into the drop decrease the angle. It’s also an advanced serve so you supinate as you go into peak acceleration with elbow leading and into extension and contact.

Protractor not needed. The internal flexion angle may decrease a bit during the drop phase, for many elite servers, but it’s not very much at all. In looking at Serena’s serve, it might bend an additional 15°. Maybe less. But, for the most part, her elbow is pretty close to a right angle during the trophy and drop phases. The flexion angle can be rather deceptive when the serve is viewed from some (many) perspectives. It may look like it bends an additional 30° or more. But that’s an illusion.

Should not go out of our way to flex the elbow much more than 90° at any time during the drop. If it varies a bit, it’s probably not an issue. But if we tell a someone that it’s ok to bend the elbow more during the drop, they may very well bend it and additional 30° or 45°. This could work but it would not be at all optimal.

 

[Digital Atheist]

There is no such thing as muscle memory. If you do something the same way over and over again the same way while trying to do it differently that’s just a lack of ability.

Yes, that is probably true, but a lack of knowledge about how to make the change can, imo, be a major contributor. For instance, I believe it will be nearly impossible for OPer to make this particular racquet drop adjustment using a full motion, hence my post above.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

There is no such thing as muscle memory.

Muscle Memory is not a myth. It exists

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/ajpcell.00099.2023

Muscle memory - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The science behind muscle memory

Stanford Medicine researchers tracked memory formation in real time, watching how muscle memory is created.

scopeblog.stanford.edu

 

[TennisDawg]

Protractor not needed. The internal flexion angle may decrease a bit during the drop phase, for many elite servers, but it’s not very much at all. In looking at Serena’s serve, it might bend an additional 15°. Maybe less. But, for the most part, her elbow is pretty close to a right angle during the trophy and drop phases. The flexion angle can be rather deceptive when the serve is viewed from some (many) perspectives. It may look like it bends an additional 30° or more. But that’s an illusion.

Should not go out of our way to flex the elbow much more than 90° at any time during the drop. If it varies a bit, it’s probably not an issue. But if we tell a someone that it’s ok to bend the elbow more during the drop, they may very well bend it and additional 30° or 45°. This could work but it would not be at all optimal.

Protractor not needed. The internal flexion angle may decrease a bit during the drop phase, for many elite servers, but it’s not very much at all. In looking at Serena’s serve, it might bend an additional 15°. Maybe less. But, for the most part, her elbow is pretty close to a right angle during the trophy and drop phases. The flexion angle can be rather deceptive when the serve is viewed from some (many) perspectives. It may look like it bends an additional 30° or more. But that’s an illusion.

Should not go out of our way to flex the elbow much more than 90° at any time during the drop. If it varies a bit, it’s probably not an issue. But if we tell a someone that it’s ok to bend the elbow more during the drop, they may very well bend it and additional 30° or 45°. This could work but it would not be at all optimal.

This instructor from online tennis does a great job explaining the racquet drop and the elbow bend. The first part is continental grip etc Go to about 4:25 he demonstrates a significant elbow bend. He also has great advice on follow thru but that’s another topic.

 

[mental midget]

always thought the 'back scratch' was kind of misleading coaching advice.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

This instructor from online tennis does a great job explaining the racquet drop and the elbow bend. The first part is continental grip etc Go to about 4:25 he demonstrates a significant elbow bend. He also has great advice on follow thru but that’s another topic.

Sorry, not buying that part of his video (4:25, 4:39, … ) where he is showing an extreme flexion angle for his drop. He appears to be emphasizing elbow flexion rather than external shoulder rotation.

What he demonstrates is pretty much the way I was serving 30+ years ago. It was a serviceable serve motion but not ideal. I was able to more easily achieve a greater RHS when I emphasized ESR and did not allow my elbow to bend much more than thr right angle that I had during the trophy phase.

I am certainly not seeing that extreme racket drop flexion on Serena’s serve. Have not seen any modern elite servers who employ that degree of elbow flexion either.

 

[Dragy]

he demonstrates a significant elbow bend.

This is the most glaring mistake in all their demonstrations in serve videos. Don’t follow it, don’t bend elbow past 90 deg to achieve racquet drop, it actually spoils and weakens the motion.

Some pros go slightly more bent, but no single one good server does it as he shows.

It’s possible that this error creeped in as there is no way to demonstrate good drop statically, without executing full motion with acceleration: because racquet drop is a consequence of shoulder (pec and lat most important) stretch.

Anyway, it makes me cringe every time I see those demonstrations.

 

[TennisDawg]

Sorry, not buying that part of his video (4:25, 4:39, … ) where he is showing an extreme flexion angle for his drop. He appears to be emphasizing elbow flexion rather than external shoulder rotation.

What he demonstrates is pretty much the way I was serving 30+ years ago. It was a serviceable serve motion but not ideal. I was able to more easily achieve a greater RHS when I emphasized ESR and did not allow my elbow to bend much more than right angle that I had during the trophy phase.

I am certainly not seeing that extreme racket drop flexion on Serena’s serve. Have not seen any modern elite servers who employ that degree of elbow flexion either.

That’s fine but there is some flexion to varying degrees and that was my whole point. As he goes into contact he demonstrates ESR, although he may not say it the motion results in ESR.

 

[TennisDawg]

This is the most glaring mistake in all their demonstrations in serve videos. Don’t follow it, don’t bend elbow past 90 deg to achieve racquet drop, it actually spoils and weakens the motion.

Some pros go slightly more bent, but no single one good server does it as he shows.

It’s possible that this error creeped in as there is no way to demonstrate good drop statically, without executing full motion with acceleration: because racquet drop is a consequence of shoulder (pec and lat most important) stretch.

Anyway, it makes me cringe every time I see those demonstrations.

Okay my whole point was that there is elbow flexion in varying degrees in the racquet drop. I’ve looked at quite a few slow mo videos of elite servers and didn’t see one with a 90 degree elbow at racquet drop. Maybe there out there. When I try maintaining 90 degrees it feels awkward. Like all instruction we can take it or leave it

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

That’s fine but there is some flexion to varying degrees and that was my whole point. As he goes into contact he demonstrates ESR, although he may not say it the motion results in ESR.

In videos of elite servers that I’ve studied, there is sometimes a SLIGHT decrease observable in the elbow angle during the drop. Certainly nothing as extreme as James Ludlow demonstrates in that particular video.

In another OTI video from James L from last month, he talks about a lot of the same serve motion concepts. He is showing the server from a view from the back fence. As the server moves from the Power Position thru the Trophy Position and the drop, he indicates that the hand passes over the biceps and the elbow angle decreases SLIGHTLY. But then he draws in a 2D elbow angle they can be interpreted as a 45° angle. Kinda misleading = Easy to misinterpret.

It’s an artifact of the chosen perspective. If he had shown the same elbow angle from a side fence perspective, we’d see that it is still very close to a right angle bend.

 

[TennisDawg]

In videos of elite servers that I’ve studied, there is sometimes a SLIGHT decrease observable in the elbow angle during the drop. Certainly nothing as extreme as James Ludlow demonstrates in that particular video.

In another OTI video from James L from last month, he talks about a lot of the same serve motion concepts. He is showing the server from a view from the back fence. As the server moves from the Power Position thru the Trophy Position and the drop, he indicates that the hand passes over the biceps and the elbow angle decreases SLIGHTLY. But then he draws in a 2D elbow angle they can be interpreted as a 45° angle. Kinda misleading = Easy to misinterpret.

It’s an artifact of the chosen perspective. If he had shown the same elbow angle from a side fence perspective, we’d see that it is still very close to a right angle bend.

When I decrease the elbow angle some I get an easier racquet drop. The most helpful for me is the right to left movement of the serving arm while maintaining the elbow position. Keeping the elbow in that position until you’ve started the racquet drop and began uncoiling prevents a racquet drop from occurring on right side of the body(for righties).

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

When I decrease the elbow angle some I get an easier racquet drop. The most helpful for me is the right to left movement of the serving arm while maintaining the elbow position. Keeping the elbow in that position until you’ve started the racquet drop and began uncoiling prevents a racquet drop from occurring on right side of the body(for righties).

I had also found my hyper-flexion racket drop style easier to implement. But after a while, I became comfortable with my newer drop (less flexion, more ESR). And once I learned to properly time my leg drive, the racket drop was much better.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Sorry, not buying that part of his video (4:25, 4:39, … ) where he is showing an extreme flexion angle for his drop. He appears to be emphasizing elbow flexion rather than external shoulder rotation.

An interesting topic that the @Serve Doc could possibly weigh in on (maybe even discuss in his thread?).

 

[Digital Atheist]

Watch Barty or Samsonova and tell me they don't fold in quite a lot at the start of the drop? But that's obviously NOT the same thing as the demo above, where the elbow is bent into and through the trophy position).

From:

Samsonova is another that is at least the same, if not worse.

 

[Dragy]

Samsonova is another that is at least the same, if not worse.

You are right they do it. But not sure if it’s optimal. Good angle to see:

But Gauff does keep 90 deg and serves harder than Samsonova being smaller:

 

[Digital Atheist]

You are right they do it.

Not sure why but there seemed to be some kind of resistance to this actually happening (maybe it is rare but I can name other wta servers who do this but I can't think of any men) and both the women I referenced have bombs. I would say it is uncommon, but as far as optimal goes, I just don't understand how they can generate such pace doing that and I know I certainly can't. Barty, who is considerably smaller than Gauff, was often in the 112 to 115 range with spin, and thats for a chick that's 5' 6". Imo this has something to do with her full motion and the angle in which she enters the drop (coming in on edge way past the head using a full take back). Dunno what Samsonova's excuse is. Also, Barty and Samsonova apparently have (had) excellent kick serves and Gauff still occasionally struggles in that area, but not as much as she used to.

Also, I agree the elbow bending demo in the OTI video is not how this should be taught and that could actually create a sub optimal back scratch if not careful.

 

[Crocodile]

The best and most simple way to get out of an extreme backscratch situation is to simply practice throwing over arm and try to keep your arm more on the right side of your body ( if you are right handed ). In tennis coaching circles - we call this the inside channel. Using this method allows you to accelerate more efficiently.