ball tossing arm!

[ptuanminh]

Yesterday I was playing a practice match. First set was smooth, my serve was good, double fault only once, crushing my opponent. 2nd set was not so smooth. First two serving games i double faulted 3 times, manage to come back to win the games. The serve was not working. I analyzed my serve to see what had changed. Apparently, maybe due to fitness level drop or just being cocky , I withdrew my arm right away once the ball is tossed in the air. Not sure how to describe it better. In first set, when i tossed the ball , my arm was kept straight in the air for a bit ( like when you do an overhead). in 2nd set, i didn't do that and the toss was erratic. I fixed it and started serving a lot better.
My question is: what is the point of keeping your ball tossing arm straight in the air like that? I see in videos, a lot of people do it.

 

[WisconsinPlayer]

better balance

 

[SinjinCooper]

The arm needs to be extended because its retraction as you begin to swing upward is an essential part of generating rotational momentum. Same reason you extend the arm in a forehand, same reason you see pitchers extend it in baseball. Any throwing motion where maximum speed of the throwing motion is the primary concern will feature this move. Sports where accuracy of the throwing vector trumps speed (e.g., American football) will see the extension truncated. (Tennis and baseball, having very limited ranges of "successful" targets available, allow more focused and aggressive motions.)

It's not about balance.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

3 reasons come to mind:

First, by extending the arm upward (nearly vertical), it helps to get the front shoulder higher than the rear shoulder for a good shoulder tilt for the trophy or power position. The power position, with a good shoulder tilt, will help to achieve good RHS (racket head speed). Second, the vertical arm with the outstretched tossing hand provides a better spatial reference to the position of the ball. It aids you in determining the exact location or trajectory of the ball toss relative to your body. This should help you develop greater consistency on your serve. By having a better sense of ball location/trajectory, it should improve the timing of your upward swing and help you to produce a suitable swingpath.

Third, by having the arm extended and then properly timing the retraction of that arm, it should facilitate a quicker uncoiling of the torso and/or a quicker shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheel action to produce good RHS. (EDIT: This 3rd reason is pretty much the same point that Sinjin makes above).

 

[UCSF2012]

ONLY REASON: ...consistency!!!

The more bends - bent elbow, bent wrist - the more things that can go wrong. The more inconsistent the toss. Keep your arm straight, wrist steady. Rotate from the shoulder, and open your fingers to let the ball go. Those are the only two movements!

Your arm swing determines the angle of the toss and how high you toss. The timing of your fingers determine where you toss (12 o'clock, 12:30, ...etc) Introduce nothing else into the equation!

Look at the golfer swing: everything's straight. all rotation. Many pro tennis players also have straight arm forehands and backhands. ....consistency and predictability.

 

[Curious]

When I take it a step further and elevate the tossing arm even further from vertical feeling the stretch on the left side of my chest, I get the most power in serve. It might be related to the forward movement of the hip described as stretching the body like a bow. Never fails in terms of serve pace.

 

[TennisCJC]

Post 3 and 4 above are excellent.

 

[TennisCJC]

By the way, I've notice my serve has a cycle. It takes me about 20 serves to get warmed up and then I serve well for awhile. Then, I've noticed a drop off say in the 3rd set. I am old and think it might be fitness related. I have a bad L ankle (archilles tendon sore and weak) and I think the L ankle and both legs generally get fatigued causing balance and rhythm issues. I need to work on this.

 

[ptuanminh]

Thanks everyone for explanation. Learn something new everyday .

 

[Chas Tennis]

Yesterday I was playing a practice match. First set was smooth, my serve was good, double fault only once, crushing my opponent. 2nd set was not so smooth. First two serving games i double faulted 3 times, manage to come back to win the games. The serve was not working. I analyzed my serve to see what had changed. Apparently, maybe due to fitness level drop or just being cocky , I withdrew my arm right away once the ball is tossed in the air. Not sure how to describe it better. In first set, when i tossed the ball , my arm was kept straight in the air for a bit ( like when you do an overhead). in 2nd set, i didn't do that and the toss was erratic. I fixed it and started serving a lot better.
My question is: what is the point of keeping your ball tossing arm straight in the air like that? I see in videos, a lot of people do it.

This was discussed in detail in the last month or two.

The tossing arm in a high level serve is often or nearly always used to speed up body forward bend and perhaps time things too. ? It is not simply brought down but brought down with acceleration and then suddenly stopped with timing related to the service motion.

But the first thing to determine is if you have a high level serving technique.

Compare serving motion to high level servers regarding how the arm is brought down, especially, speed. 30 fps should be fast enough for the tossing arm.

(The same arm acceleration and timed pull-in also happens on the forehand with the off arm. The arm rotates back. See forehand videos.)

 

[ptuanminh]

This was discussed in detail in the last month or two.

The tossing arm in a high level serve is often or nearly always used to speed up body forward bend and perhaps time things too. ? It is not simply brought down but brought down with acceleration and then suddenly stopped with timing related to the service motion.

But the first thing to determine is if you have a high level serving technique.

Compare serving motion to high level servers regarding how the arm is brought down, especially, speed. 30 fps should be fast enough for the tossing arm.

(The same arm acceleration and timed pull-in also happens on the forehand with the off arm. The arm rotates back. See forehand videos.)

I am not quite sure I understand. Are you talking about the phase of bringing the arm down? I guess thats the more advanced part. I am still working on extending my arm with the toss. But its good to know for the future , hopefully. Whats the name of that thread? Thanks.

 

[Tennisanity]

Third, by having the arm extended and then properly timing the retraction of that arm, it should facilitate a quicker uncoiling of the torso and/or a quicker shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheel action to produce good RHS. (EDIT: This 3rd reason is pretty much the same point that Sinjin makes above).

But doesn't actively using the off arm in the uncoiling counteract the kinetic chain? It's like actively using the arm during torso rotation - it would reduce RHS speed since arm is not loose. Same principle for actively using the off arm to twist the torso, blunts the passive uncoiling of the torso following hip rotation/drive. I thought the only active muscle action after initial coil was push off with the leg, and then everything that follows unfolds 'passively'.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I am not quite sure I understand. Are you talking about the phase of bringing the arm down? I guess thats the more advanced part. I am still working on extending my arm with the toss. But its good to know for the future , hopefully. Whats the name of that thread? Thanks.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...rm-height-after-release.585435/#post-11067974

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ct-service-motion.570141/page-2#post-10577387

will look for one or two more.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

But doesn't actively using the off arm in the uncoiling counteract the kinetic chain? It's like actively using the arm during torso rotation - it would reduce RHS speed since arm is not loose. Same principle for actively using the off arm to twist the torso, blunts the passive uncoiling of the torso following hip rotation/drive. I thought the only active muscle action after initial coil was push off with the leg, and then everything that follows unfolds 'passively'.

No, the action does not counteract the KC.

Sinjin had a bit more to say about this in post #3. Pulling the tossing arm in the body reduces the moment of interia (MOI) of the uncoiling torso. This should promote an increase in the angular momentum. This is what is going on with an ice skater who is spinning. When the arms (and leg) are extended, the MOI is higher than when the arms (and leg) are pulled in. When the arms and leg are pulled tight into the body, the skater's RPMs increases substantially.

 

[Chas Tennis]

But doesn't actively using the off arm in the uncoiling counteract the kinetic chain? It's like actively using the arm during torso rotation - it would reduce RHS speed since arm is not loose. Same principle for actively using the off arm to twist the torso, blunts the passive uncoiling of the torso following hip rotation/drive. I thought the only active muscle action after initial coil was push off with the leg, and then everything that follows unfolds 'passively'.

The off arm motion stops early to help start torso motion. The torso is massive and so any velocity increase from pulling the single arm in will be small. But the boost from pulling in the arm can be well timed. The feet and hips add by pelvis rotation.

The kinetic chain concept of sequential speeding up of body parts does a poor job of acknowledging the stretching of muscles. That was pointed out by researchers, Marshall and B. Elliott in their ground breaking 1995 & 2000 tennis publications.
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ntal-sequencing.pdf?origin=publication_detail