Berdych short low ball running forehand (52.5 fps)

[toly]

IMO Berdych demonstrates very good technique.
What do you think of this forehand?

See also video http://youtu.be/n4TsWDQBbrY.

 

[hawk eye]

Waay too much arm.

 

[Nevarin]

way too much arm? I don't want to be an ***, but to me he seems to go for a high topspin, short crosscourt angle. the ball is pretty short and low, so he can't take a huge cut at it like on a hip high baseline rally ball. I doubt his technique is flawed in such a simple way as "arming the ball".
we are talking about a guy who's been consistently in the top 10....

 

[hawk eye]

Pun intended.. just have a look at the picture.

 

[hieu1811]

Just watched him live at Bangkok final, got crushed by Raonic low ball and hit errors many many times on both wings. So no I don't think he is good at low balls. Against Simon yesterday he was pretty good with waist height balls and above

 

[boramiNYC]

jeez no spoilers pls. I'm watching semis now.

 

[UCSF2012]

Pun intended.. just have a look at the picture.

nm.
10 char

 

[RetroSpin]

Waay too much arm.

LOL. Many here are humor-challenged.

 

[Chas Tennis]

..............................

See also video http://youtu.be/n4TsWDQBbrY.

I'm currently interested in the angle of the upper arm (shoulder adduction?) and if and how it contributes to the forehand. I guess I can infer it from the height of his elbow in the pictures?

The stretch shortening cycle is utilized by the body turn - and possibly the shoulder adduction(?) of the upper arm - causing stretching (wrist extends?) probably of the bottom forearm muscles and pec and some other muscles. This causes the phase where the butt of the racket points at the ball.

(I am trying to understand where a Golfer's Elbow injury is most likely to occur during the forehand. I have a light GE injury now and have been off for 6 weeks so far. Ugh!)

 

[thisiscrazy]

Just watched him live at Bangkok final, got crushed by Raonic low ball and hit errors many many times on both wings. So no I don't think he is good at low balls. Against Simon yesterday he was pretty good with waist height balls and above

Not really a surprise that someone 6'5 is better with waist-high or above shots than shin-high or below shots.

 

[mntlblok]

low balls

Thanks so much for posting this, Toly! IMO it shows almost perfectly how one must modify his stroke in order to put topspin on a low ball to the forehand. It shows that you must put at least as much "sidespin" as topspin on such a ball. The racket head is pointing (in the last "arm" before contact) to around 6 o'clock. The racket head is pointing at around 4:30 at contact, and then at around 3:30 in the next "arm" after contact. Also, with so much "left-to-right", it pretty much requires a "reverse" finish.

If one were to try to go with straight topspin for such a shot, he'd either be unable to keep the racket face "on plane" (keeping the face close to vertical), or would have to find a way to make the racket head go under ground for a while. (Well, maybe he could keep it vertical if he just went straight "up" with the racket head - like one might sometimes have to do with some particularly troublesome half volleys).

That sidespin that goes with it also yields a ball that curves right-to-left.

Since I'm now forced to play with nothing but slice off both sides, I get to see a lot of "good" club players struggle mightily with this forehand. When I teach them to think of going "across" the ball like this (left-to-right) with the racket head, they are immediately able to make the shot work. It seems, however, that very few ever "remember" this tip when it next comes time to play against me.:mrgreen:

Got to play some doubles against a former D1 college girl recently. She was able to consistently roll this ball sharply crosscourt to where I couldn't volley it. She used precisely this swing path. I used lots of bad words.

 

[tennis_balla]

Berdych for his size and strength has 2 things that in my opinion are under-developed. His forehand and his serve. This is why he's never made a Grand Slam final, most likely never will and winning a GS....

 

[toly]

What motions move the racquet upward?

Thanks so much for posting this, Toly! IMO it shows almost perfectly how one must modify his stroke in order to put topspin on a low ball to the forehand. It shows that you must put at least as much "sidespin" as topspin on such a ball. The racket head is pointing (in the last "arm" before contact) to around 6 o'clock. The racket head is pointing at around 4:30 at contact, and then at around 3:30 in the next "arm" after contact. Also, with so much "left-to-right", it pretty much requires a "reverse" finish.

Berdych uses eastern grip (?), so he can apply wrist radius deviation. He also can use elbow and shoulder flexions, but because of his extreme wrist flexion he practically doesn’t exploit forearm pronation, right?

 

[mntlblok]

biomechanics

Berdych uses eastern grip (?), so he can apply wrist radius deviation. He also can use elbow and shoulder flexions, but because of his extreme wrist flexion he practically doesn’t exploit forearm pronation, right?

Biomechanics is so far over my head that I've mostly given up on trying to figure it out. I now just try see the (simple) physics that goes on between the string bed and the ball during those few milliseconds that they're in contact. Looking at the "just before" and "just after" also seem to help with figuring out what went on during that "contact time". That's why I *love* these composites that yer able to post here.

 

[dominikk1985]

Berdych for his size and strength has 2 things that in my opinion are under-developed. His forehand and his serve. This is why he's never made a Grand Slam final, most likely never will and winning a GS....

his FH and serve are his best shots. everything else is around average.
if he didn't have his serve and FH he would not be a top50 player.

he has served up to 140 mph and hit 100 mph FHs. size and strength is not an advantage in tennis, berdych has made it so far DESPITE his size and he did it because he can hit really hard.

at 6"5+ a players movement, stamina and probably injury resistance are severely compromised. most tall players fail and I think he has done very well for such a tall player.

if not for his serve and FH why did he become a top7 player? because of his movement and grinding ability?

 

[MurrayMyInspiration]

Berdych for his size and strength has 2 things that in my opinion are under-developed. His forehand and his serve. This is why he's never made a Grand Slam final, most likely never will and winning a GS....

Wrong. He has made a grand slam final. Wimbledon 2010.

 

[ricki]

Berdych for his size and strength has 2 things that in my opinion are under-developed. His forehand and his serve. This is why he's never made a Grand Slam final, most likely never will and winning a GS....

wimbledon 2010 final was not a grand slam final?

 

[tennis_balla]

Forgot about that, the rest of my argument I stand behind. The other thing that Berdych is weak is mental toughness. He and Kvitova are in the same boat there.

 

[dominikk1985]

Forgot about that, the rest of my argument I stand behind. The other thing that Berdych is weak is mental toughness. He and Kvitova are in the same boat there.

so why is a 6"5 guy with a bad FH, bad serve and mental issues a top 10 player?

can he even play tennis? I'm sorry to pick on you because I know that you know a lot more about tennis than I do but I wonder about that comment. especially because serve and FH is the only advantage that tall players have (see isner). if you take that away from them they are generally at a disadvantage.

 

[tennis_balla]

In my opinion the guy has severely under achieved. Him being 6'5 should have some huge weapons, but he doesn't. Yea he's got some good strokes but nothing in his game really stands out like with Delpo for example, or Safin before him. Berdych will pitter patter in the Top 10 and then fade out. To me his mental toughness is also lacking, much like with Kvitova.
No doubt Top 10 is an amazing achievement and the guy has made some serious $$, I'm not taking anything away from the guy. When ever I've watched him he's got some ridiculous unforced errors off that forehand side especially when things don't go his way and he should be getting a lot more aces and service winners with his strength and size. The guy was a top prospect in Czech Rep. but in my view the results haven't come in. I am being harsh on him but there's a reason. With his size, and pretty good movement he should of done a lot more. He and Murray should of been knocking on the Top 3's doorstep together. Instead it was Andy and Ferrer, a midget with a huge heart.

 

[MurrayMyInspiration]

In my opinion the guy has severely under achieved.

Truth! His serve is good but compared to Querrey, Raonic, Ljubicic, Janowicz it is poor. Delpo also has a rubbish serve. His movement is excellent for a big man. His forehand is a big weapon and he has a solid backhand. Problem is mental, he should have spent time as 4 or 5.

 

[hawk eye]

What i have noticed is that he can smack amazing winners from the baseline, but from midcourt he's not as effective as other top players and squanders a lot of opportunities from there. Same goes for Gulbis, with him it's even worse.

 

[WildVolley]

What i have noticed is that he can smack amazing winners from the baseline, but from midcourt he's not as effective as other top players and squanders a lot of opportunities from there. Same goes for Gulbis, with him it's even worse.

Gulbis's approaches are sometimes hilarious. I saw him hit two full into the back wall playing Llodra. He definitely was doing something wrong as you rarely see a pro hit a ball that long.

Gulbis admits that he prefers to hit high balls, which is why he loves to play Nadal (though Nadal beats him).

 

[5263]

Thanks so much for posting this, Toly! IMO it shows almost perfectly how one must modify his stroke in order to put topspin on a low ball to the forehand. It shows that you must put at least as much "sidespin" as topspin on such a ball. The racket head is pointing (in the last "arm" before contact) to around 6 o'clock. The racket head is pointing at around 4:30 at contact, and then at around 3:30 in the next "arm" after contact. Also, with so much "left-to-right", it pretty much requires a "reverse" finish.

If one were to try to go with straight topspin for such a shot, he'd either be unable to keep the racket face "on plane" (keeping the face close to vertical), or would have to find a way to make the racket head go under ground for a while. (Well, maybe he could keep it vertical if he just went straight "up" with the racket head - like one might sometimes have to do with some particularly troublesome half volleys).

That sidespin that goes with it also yields a ball that curves right-to-left.

Since I'm now forced to play with nothing but slice off both sides, I get to see a lot of "good" club players struggle mightily with this forehand. When I teach them to think of going "across" the ball like this (left-to-right) with the racket head, they are immediately able to make the shot work. It seems, however, that very few ever "remember" this tip when it next comes time to play against me.:mrgreen:

Got to play some doubles against a former D1 college girl recently. She was able to consistently roll this ball sharply crosscourt to where I couldn't volley it. She used precisely this swing path. I used lots of bad words.

I didn't realize we agreed so much...
Also Imo, the side aspect is important for great control of trajectory!

 

[5263]

so why is a 6"5 guy with a bad FH, bad serve and mental issues a top 10 player?
.

He didn't say bad...
and balla is right....those strokes should be better for him with his size, if he
wants to contend for every GS.

 

[dominikk1985]

In my opinion the guy has severely under achieved. Him being 6'5 should have some huge weapons, but he doesn't. Yea he's got some good strokes but nothing in his game really stands out like with Delpo for example, or Safin before him. Berdych will pitter patter in the Top 10 and then fade out. To me his mental toughness is also lacking, much like with Kvitova.
No doubt Top 10 is an amazing achievement and the guy has made some serious $$, I'm not taking anything away from the guy. When ever I've watched him he's got some ridiculous unforced errors off that forehand side especially when things don't go his way and he should be getting a lot more aces and service winners with his strength and size. The guy was a top prospect in Czech Rep. but in my view the results haven't come in. I am being harsh on him but there's a reason. With his size, and pretty good movement he should of done a lot more. He and Murray should of been knocking on the Top 3's doorstep together. Instead it was Andy and Ferrer, a midget with a huge heart.

well I don't think size qualifies for anything. there are millions of men being 6"5 and most of them are no good tennis players. I think being taller than 6"4 is a disadvantage or more players would be that tall.

I think "with his size he should dominate" is not really a good assertion. you could also ask why anderson or querry do not dominate.

berdych has been in the top10 for 3 straight years. I think he maximized his potential pretty well.

why should he be able to win slams other than his "size"? I don't see anything special in him other than him being able to hit hard. if anything I say he has overachieved.

you could also ask why tsonga has not achieved more. that guy has a huge game and still he has not won anything.

 

[tennis_balla]

I never mentioned anything about dominating

 

[5263]

I think "with his size he should dominate" is not really a good assertion. you could also ask why anderson or querry do not dominate.

THose guys do tend to dominate with their serve and Fh.

 

[hieu1811]

I didn't realize we agreed so much...
Also Imo, the side aspect is important for great control of trajectory!

Just tried this on a game today and man... i whip few winners down the line with these short low balls. I'm so happy.

Do the players do side aspect things when they hit sharp angle cross court balls to?

And if i hit one handed backhand, can i also do a right to left?

 

[mntlblok]

Physics

Just tried this on a game today and man... i whip few winners down the line with these short low balls. I'm so happy.

Do the players do side aspect things when they hit sharp angle cross court balls to?

And if i hit one handed backhand, can i also do a right to left?

To me, physics is physics. If the body parts allow it, it'll work.

For sharp, cross court shots, I like to think about simply rotating the clock face so that it is perpendicular to the line of the intended ball flight. (The clock face remains basically vertical - it's just no longer facing the net).

For example, one handed or two handed on the backhand, with my "turned" clock face, it'll feel almost like I'm going "back-to-front", or almost just "forward" with my racket head in order to zip one sharply cross court off a low ball, emphasizing spin rather than "hit".

Interestingly, something sort of similar goes for hitting slice off low balls - more of a "sideways" slicing action than "downward". It's fun to experiment. Part of that sideways thing with the slices, for me, is to make sure the racket head starts "outside" that low ball before slicing back across it. Can work on the forehand, too. I've been watching some *very* good practitioners of same here at the National 55's Clay Courts this week, and that seems to be a commonality (to me) with this shot (the sliced forehand off a low ball).

 

[tennis_ocd]

LOL. Many here are humor-challenged.

I don't see what's so impressive about a 52.5 fps forehand from an atp pro.

 

[user92626]

why should he be able to win slams other than his "size"? I don't see anything special in him other than him being able to hit hard. if anything I say he has overachieved.

you could also ask why tsonga has not achieved more. that guy has a huge game and still he has not won anything.

I agree with this poster that I don't see anything standing out about Berdych. To me, he's like the poorman's Federer. He can do everything and looks elegantly doing it but at a much lower intensity. He's going to become sloppy when the heat is turned up.