Calling footfault at 5-6 15-30 2nd set is dumb and unprofessional

FiveO

Hall of Fame
I agree common sense would say only blatant footfaults should be called, especially at the end of a match.

Of course it is easy to criticise and say "What does blatant mean?" You could question everything. In a criminal trial where proof is required "beyond reasonable doubt", you might ask, what does "reasonable" mean? If a jury can use judgment and commonsense to work out "reasonable", I don't think it is too much of a stretch to work out "blatant".

The NBA can work out what is a flagrant foul.

Common Sense? COMMON SENSE?

A criminal trial requires assessments of difficult to quantify elements of an offense, i.e. of intent and mental state of the accused or emotional response of the victim such as "fear".

However it also considers questions of fact, i.e. the respective ages of the victim and offender, what type of structure was involved, was a handgun operabable, loaded and/or licensed in a particular jurisdiction. Those issues are not subject to the "reasonable man" test, et al. They are or they aren't, period. Something IS or ISN'T.

A footfault is completely defined, there's no abiguity. It is a question of fact. The only "fan based" question is whether the rule was or wasn't violated. In that the section of the footfault rule that applies in Serena's case is probably the "easiest" footfault to call, for that matter the easiest call that any linesperson is charged with the responsibility to make in that it involves a very slow movement of a large object v. a fixed object all happening a a very narrow field of view, we have to accept the call as it is made.

In that there has been no more definitive video available to REFUTE the linesperson's call, the call stands. PERIOD.

The player's know the rule, the linespeople know the rule, HELL, most of us know the rule. Additionally, Serena knows the rule, has been called for footfaults in the past, in this tournament, and more specifically by another linesperson in this match, shame on her for not moving a 1/2" further away from the baseline, which would have about as much impact on her ability to make a serve, as bending the rule would.

Yeah, most NBA fouls, NFL penalties and MLB calls are subjective, which only raises the emotions of fans who feel cheated or benefitted by a call or non-call.

But, how about the NFL back that barely touches the sideline with one step, on his way to a game winning touchdown with no time left on the clock. The NBA'er who's size 13's were ONLY 1/32nd of an inch on the 3 point line instead of behind it when he hit what would have been a game tying or winning, last second shot.



There are rules in golf which seem unreasonably harsh which if violated seem to have little impact outcomes, such as the ball moving when a player soles a club behind it. But the rule exists, not only does it exist the player is expected to make the call against him/herself if it occurs. It is a question of fact, not subject "awe, come on, it hardly moved" judgement call. And it doesn't factor in the player's intent. It moved, it's a stroke. PERIOD.

Further, any suggestion to simplify the rule, or relax its enforcement would only serve (excuse the pun) to complicate it. What's reasonable? Why was
the same or very similar call made against player A and not player B? What's reasonable to one linesperson as opposed to the second or third linesperson who relieves them during the course of the same match?

It IS or it ISN'T. It's the easiest call for a linesperson to make. It isn't a secret. It's not some obscure rule that has never been enforced before.

The only thing that I would deem within reason, stemming from all the attention this rule has gotten for reasons truly unrelated to it, is having video to confirm the call. I don't think it's necessary, but if it would serve to end the nonsense that stemmed from it, I wouldn't object.

This other nonsense, is nonsense. Unnecessary rationalizations most which I believe are motivated by the desire to blame the victim or system, rather than hold the offender accountable for what, particularly in this specific instance, is totally within their control, with an equally miniscule adjustment on their part.

5
 

goober

Legend
in the NBA, in the final seconds, fouls are rarely called cause they don't want the game decided by freethrows. that is what happened here.

Why do people keep bring up foul calls in the NBA? Foul calls in team contact sports are not the same as line calls and foot faults. As been stated a bazillion times these are discretionary calls.

How about this example which is a lot closer analogy. In the final seconds of an important NBA game a players foot touches the out of bounds line. It just barely touches it, but to the official who has the best view it clearly touched it in his mind. Should that official not call that player out of bounds and let the players play? Of course not. I bet everyone on this board would say he should call that 100% of the time even it is game 7 of the NBA finals.

edit: doh just read FiveO's response. He basically laid it all out.
 
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chess9

Hall of Fame
I don't think you understand the definition of foot fault. Does it matter if Serena's toe touched the line or not? Of course not.

WHAT IS A FOOTFAULT

When the linesperson says "footfault".

WHAT IS NOT A FOOTFAULT

When the linesperson does not not say "footfault".


Do you really believe that every 1mm footfault has been called? Of course not. So by definition, they were not footfaults.

According to the video replay, Serena did not touch the line, but yet it was a footfault by definition (I clearly heard the linesperson yell "footfault").


So by definition, Serena footfaulted. Also by definition, a footfault could happen at anytime. After all, this is the linesperson's job.

Yes, this is analogous to the Constitution meaning what the Supremes say it means. We all agree to be bound by the rulings of the linespeople. We also know that linespeople make mistakes. We also know that a tennis game cannot be called perfectly. If you do not agree to these pre-conditions for a tennis match, then go to the NBA or wrestling, where rules rarely matter. But, please, don't call your game tennis.

-Robert
 
This is a quote from section 8 of the USTA rules of Tennis.

USTA Comment: This rule covers the most decisive stroke in the game, and there is no justification for its not being obeyed by players and enforced by officials. No official has the right to instruct any umpire to disregard violations of it.
 

pmerk34

Legend
Why do people keep bring up foul calls in the NBA? Foul calls in team contact sports are not the same as line calls and foot faults. As been stated a bazillion times these are discretionary calls.

How about this example which is a lot closer analogy. In the final seconds of an important NBA game a players foot touches the out of bounds line. It just barely touches it, but to the official who has the best view it clearly touched it in his mind. Should that official not call that player out of bounds and let the players play? Of course not. I bet everyone on this board would say he should call that 100% of the time even it is game 7 of the NBA finals.

edit: doh just read FiveO's response. He basically laid it all out.

Foot faults have never been treated like line calls. Players are all over line calls. they directly affect the outcome of a match. I've never seen a pro match with players arguing if an opponent foot faulted or not.
 

Tshooter

G.O.A.T.
"the list goes on and on, and nobody holding a rule book seems to be upset about this use of discretion and many many others"

None of your examples are of the same nature as a foot fault. The better example of similar "discretion" would be not calling the ball out.

Which make about as much sense. There can be no more discretion to not calling a foot fault then to calling the ball out.
 

pmerk34

Legend
"the list goes on and on, and nobody holding a rule book seems to be upset about this use of discretion and many many others"

None of your examples are of the same nature as a foot fault. The better example of similar "discretion" would be not calling the ball out.

Which make about as much sense. There can be no more discretion to not calling a foot fault then to calling the ball out.

Except there always has been.
 

goober

Legend
Foot faults have never been treated like line calls. Players are all over line calls. they directly affect the outcome of a match. I've never seen a pro match with players arguing if an opponent foot faulted or not.

Players never argue about opponents footfaults because they are not in a good position to see them and they rely on the lines person to make the call. If someone steps an inch on the line it is almost impossible for the opposing player to see it, but it is an easy call for the linesperson.

Sure line calls directly affect the outcome of a match so do footfaults. :confused:
 

Tshooter

G.O.A.T.
"Except there always has been."

I personally find arguments develop more persuasively when assertions are not presented as facts.

But I am open to hearing the actual supporting facts. What, I presume, is your gut feeling that linespeople decide when they will and will not call a foot fault is not a supporting fact.

Something that might actually support your assertion would be the name of an ATP level linesperson willing to state that they use discretion to determine at what stage of the match they do and do not call a foot fault. Some example matches of when they've used this discretion would be helpful as well.
 

pmerk34

Legend
"Except there always has been."

I personally find arguments develop more persuasively when assertions are not presented as facts.

But I am open to hearing the actual supporting facts. What, I presume, is your gut feeling that linespeople decide when they will and will not call a foot fault is not a supporting fact.

Something that might actually support your assertion would be the name of an ATP level linesperson willing to state that they use discretion to determine at what stage of the match they do and do not call a foot fault. Some example matches of when they've used this discretion would be helpful as well.

It's not possible to prove wither way. Either you believe Serena Williams is the only player in the last 40 years to foot fault in the semis of a Grand
Slam to lose a point where it could determine the match or you believe lines people used their discretion and never called it before when it could determine the match.

I believer the latter.
 
It's not possible to prove wither way. Either you believe Serena Williams is the only player in the last 40 years to foot fault in the semis of a Grand
Slam to lose a point where it could determine the match or you believe lines people used their discretion and never called it before when it could determine the match.

I believer the latter.

Or you believe that it did indeed happen before (as has been mentioned at Wimbledon with Edberg, among others), and those examples have been ignored because they weaken the argument that it has to be one of the two extreme choices mentioned.
 
My final line call: This thread is BS

You said it very well!!! This thread is the Grassy Knoll for tennis buffs..."Let's not call a rules violation if the match is close or the point is important,"makes as much sense as saying the devil got into Serena and made her behave like an ass.
It's called EVASION OF RESPONSIBILITY, people. Repeat after me: LET'S GROW UP.
 

Rob_C

Hall of Fame
Or you believe that it did indeed happen before (as has been mentioned at Wimbledon with Edberg, among others), and those examples have been ignored because they weaken the argument that it has to be one of the two extreme choices mentioned.

He said called in the semis at a point in the match where it could have been a deciding factor in the match. I'd say giving Clijsters match point was a deciding factor.
 

pmerk34

Legend
He said called in the semis at a point in the match where it could have been a deciding factor in the match. I'd say giving Clijsters match point was a deciding factor.

Correct Edberg magically never foot faulted when it could determine the outcome of the match. Neither did all the other serve and volleyers in the past 40 years according to the "rules are rules" crowd. Do I beleive Serena was singled out by some vindictive line judge? No I can;t prove that nor do I think that. Do I think this line judge broke the unspoken rule of not having a foot fault be deciding factor in the outcome of a match such as that? yes I do.
 

Rob_C

Hall of Fame
I suppose footfaults are easier to call.. unlike a 100+ km/h serve..

They're not infallible. And they are a few feet off the court. The court at Ashe Stadium is one of the biggest, so the linespeople would be farther away than on one of the outside courts.

I just looked at a freeze frame of the court and the linespeople are all the way at the side of the court which looks to be slightly bigger than 1/2 the width of the court, including the doubles alleys, which is 18 ft.

So they would be about 36 feet away trying to call an encroachment of maybe 1/4 - 1/2 inch. Not sure how easy of a call that is.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
.... in particular when there wasn't a footfault. Serena's rage was entirely understandable.

As a spectator and tennis fan I felt robbed. This could easily have been a legendary three-set thriller between two great players near the height of their game. A dumb lineswoman and an even dumber top official -- who apparently thought he should run the show and not the players -- prevented this from happening.

I agree 100%. On the slow mo replay, I couldn't see any footfault at all + the linejudge had that strange extatic smile plastered on her face during and after the call. I don't know how Serena refrained from actually shoving a ball down her throat instead of just threatening to do it!! In her place, I would have gone ballistic. To me this call was a provocation, of course it worked because Serena was in a state of extreme stress and tension in a match that was escaping her and in which she struggled to survive.
And who got robbed in this affair? The spectator who couldn't see a proper denouement to a captivating encounter.
A lot of people made a huge deal about how "evil" Serena was (notwithstanding that many players before her have totally lost it on a tennis court) but personally, I'm really looking forward to never seeing that linejudge officiate ever again. What she did was very deliberate and very shameful.
 
I agree 100%. On the slow mo replay, I couldn't see any footfault at all + the linejudge had that strange extatic smile plastered on her face during and after the call. I don't know how Serena refrained from actually shoving a ball down her throat instead of just threatening to do it!! In her place, I would have gone ballistic. To me this call was a provocation, of course it worked because Serena was in a state of extreme stress and tension in a match that was escaping her and in which she struggled to survive.
And who got robbed in this affair? The spectator who couldn't see a proper denouement to a captivating encounter.
A lot of people made a huge deal about how "evil" Serena was (notwithstanding that many players before her have totally lost it on a tennis court) but personally, I'm really looking forward to never seeing that linejudge officiate ever again. What she did was very deliberate and very shameful.

You are absolutely right, that woman should be deemed the antichrist for those wicked and unwarranted atrocities she commited against Serena that day. Who does she think she is? Doing her job...screw that
 

Baikalic

Semi-Pro
I agree 100%. On the slow mo replay, I couldn't see any footfault at all + the linejudge had that strange extatic smile plastered on her face during and after the call. I don't know how Serena refrained from actually shoving a ball down her throat instead of just threatening to do it!! In her place, I would have gone ballistic. To me this call was a provocation, of course it worked because Serena was in a state of extreme stress and tension in a match that was escaping her and in which she struggled to survive.
And who got robbed in this affair? The spectator who couldn't see a proper denouement to a captivating encounter.
A lot of people made a huge deal about how "evil" Serena was (notwithstanding that many players before her have totally lost it on a tennis court) but personally, I'm really looking forward to never seeing that linejudge officiate ever again. What she did was very deliberate and very shameful.

considering the drama of the situation, I'll bet that some of those spectators thought they got their moneys' worth :) to see a professional tennis player basically unwind.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
You are absolutely right, that woman should be deemed the antichrist for those wicked and unwarranted atrocities she commited against Serena that day. Who does she think she is? Doing her job...screw that

Calling a footfault that'll give 2 break/match points to the opponent because Serena's toes were tickling the line is doing her job? :shock:
I'm glad most linejudges don't do their job this way. The last thing we need in tennis is footfault fundamentalists waiting until match point to bring their death sentence. This is a very creepy way of doing one's job...
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
considering the drama of the situation, I'll bet that some of those spectators thought they got their moneys' worth :) to see a professional tennis player basically unwind.
Not me. The Serena's "unwind" was very short (compared to a Mcenroe tirade that was a full length "bring the popcorn" type show or even Fed's rant during the final that was pretty funny.)
It wasn't that clear at the moment what Serena was saying and it was maddeningly frustrating to see the match cut short as it was highly entertaining. I first thought Serena had defaulted because of the call!! It took me a few seconds to realize she had actually been disqualified. I kept expecting them to watch a replay of Serena's serve action and rule that there was no noticeable footfault. I thought that's what should have happened in a perfect world but of course the world is far from perfect and there's no rule in tennis allowing to question footfaults. Shame.
 

sfleming

New User
Think About It!!

Have you ever played a really important tennis match! If so, consider that you lost the first set and are serving at 5-6, 15-30 and your second serve is then called a foot fault. Please tell me: aren't you going to be furious with the linesperson? If you say no, he/she was just during their job--you are just plain LYING!!
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
)
Have you ever played a really important tennis match! If so, consider that you lost the first set and are serving at 5-6, 15-30 and your second serve is then called a foot fault. Please tell me: aren't you going to be furious with the linesperson? If you say no, he/she was just during their job--you are just plain LYING!!

Yeah and don't tell me that the linesjudge was surprised at Serena's reaction, that linejudge is not 5 years old, I'm sure she realized full well the impact of what she was doing. For those who believe she was "terrified" by Serena ( :roll:), you don't want to know what McEnroe would have said or done to her, she would have probably crawled off the court wailing... (ah the good old times :))
 
T

TennisandMusic

Guest
Have you ever played a really important tennis match! If so, consider that you lost the first set and are serving at 5-6, 15-30 and your second serve is then called a foot fault. Please tell me: aren't you going to be furious with the linesperson? If you say no, he/she was just during their job--you are just plain LYING!!

I'd probably be furious at myself for foot faulting.
 

FedererClone

Semi-Pro
damn this a long thread.... she foot faulted, got called for it, got real mad 'cause of it, got a penalty for her behavior, so lost the point, and subsequently lost the match 'cause it was match point... unfortunately she embarrassed herself by threatening a young, small Asian lady... had it been a guy I think she would have thought twice about sounding off...
 
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veroniquem

Bionic Poster
damn this a long thread.... she foot faulted, got called for it, got real mad 'cause of it, got a penalty for her behavior, so lost the point, and subsequently lost the match 'cause it was match point... unfortunately she embarrassed herself by threatening a young, small Asian lady... had it been a guy I think she would have thought twice about sounding off...

Young? She seemed older than Serena to me. Small? She also looked on the heavy side to me, short maybe but certainly not small. Asian? What does the race have to do with anything? Unless you have your own scale of values as how Black compare to Asian? hum... I don't think I want to go there really...
 

LPShanet

Banned
He said called in the semis at a point in the match where it could have been a deciding factor in the match. I'd say giving Clijsters match point was a deciding factor.

Yes, and it was called at Wimbledon to set up set point. We're splitting hairs now.
 

LPShanet

Banned
Correct Edberg magically never foot faulted when it could determine the outcome of the match. Neither did all the other serve and volleyers in the past 40 years according to the "rules are rules" crowd. Do I beleive Serena was singled out by some vindictive line judge? No I can;t prove that nor do I think that. Do I think this line judge broke the unspoken rule of not having a foot fault be deciding factor in the outcome of a match such as that? yes I do.

With all due respect, PMerk, that just isn't true. As Tens pointed out, it happened with set point on the line to Edberg. If we're going to quibble about relative importance of critical points, we're really splitting hairs.
 

pmerk34

Legend
With all due respect, PMerk, that just isn't true. As Tens pointed out, it happened with set point on the line to Edberg. If we're going to quibble about relative importance of critical points, we're really splitting hairs.

After a week of discussion all we can come up with is a set point for Edberg? Who was a chronic foot faulter.

Seriously I'd love to to know how many foot faults serve and volleyers like Mac and Navratilova got away with in big matches near match point.

Somehow, a baseliner who toes may have touched the line a bit on a second serve is the only one.
 
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DNShade

Hall of Fame
It's not possible to prove wither way. Either you believe Serena Williams is the only player in the last 40 years to foot fault in the semis of a Grand
Slam to lose a point where it could determine the match or you believe lines people used their discretion and never called it before when it could determine the match.

I believer the latter.

The reason it probably hasn't happened more is because most top pros have learned to serve without FFing! Especially when the score is tight or on an important point. And by the way - I've seen plenty of FF called not only in semis but in finals of GS events. So that point goes right out the window.

It's called learning how to not FF on your serve. These are pros - they should (and most do) learn how to serve without FFing. I've been as close as you can get courtside at MANY ATP matches with Mac, Martina, Stephan, etc...and with Mac and Martina - never saw them FF once. Not - not be called on it - not doing it. Now Edberg was known to push it and FF a lot - and he got called on it all the time. I mean ALL THE TIME. He just moved on to the next point.

Now if you want to bring in a system to do away with the human factor - fine. But let's stop talking about how it shouldn't be called - that is just plain and simple BS. It's called all the time - and if any of you went to actual matches and saw stuff on the outside courts or challenger levels instead of just watching it on TV now and then with the top players, you'd know this.

As for Serena - she was being called on FF the entire US Open - so should have made the adjustment to not FF - he11 she was called on a FF already by a different line judge in that same exact match! How can you possibly complain about this? And as they showed the next day in the dubs - she was still FFing. It's either a rule and we play by it or it's not and you can just serve anywhere. Maybe on big points the server should get first one in huh? Would that make you people happy?

And comparing other sports - I can't tell you how many times games in the NFL or NBA have been totally decided by calls by the ref in the last few seconds or minutes - so that argument is totally out the door - and these calls are judgment calls not cut and dry in or out calls such as a FF. Get over it people.

Maybe we are seeing this kind of reaction because all of you FF and feel it shouldn't be called on you?
 
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pmerk34

Legend
The reason it probably hasn't happened more is because most top pros have learned to serve without FFing! Especially when the score is tight or on an important point. And by the way - I've seen plenty of FF called not only in semis but in finals of GS events. So that point goes right out the window.

It's called learning how to not FF on your serve. These are pros - they should (and most do) learn how to serve without FFing. I've been as close as you can get courtside at MANY ATP matches with Mac, Martina, Stephan, etc...and with Mac and Martina - never saw them FF once. Not - not be called on it - not doing it. Now Edberg was known to push it and FF a lot - and he got called on it all the time. I mean ALL THE TIME. He just moved on to the next point.

Now if you want to bring in a system to do away with the human factor - fine. But let's stop talking about how it shouldn't be called - that is just plain and simple BS. It's called all the time - and if any of you went to actual matches and saw stuff on the outside courts or challenger levels instead of just watching it on TV now and then with the top players, you'd know this.

As for Serena - she was being called on FF the entire US Open - so should have made the adjustment to not FF - he11 she was called on a FF already by a different line judge in that same exact match! How can you possibly complain about this? And as they showed the next day in the dubs - she was still FFing. It's either a rule and we play by it or it's not and you can just serve anywhere. Maybe on big points the server should get first one in huh? Would that make you people happy?

And comparing other sports - I can't tell you how many times games in the NFL or NBA have been totally decided by calls by the ref in the last few seconds or minutes - so that argument is totally out the door - and these calls are judgment calls not cut and dry in or out calls such as a FF. Get over it people.

Maybe we are seeing this kind of reaction because all of you FF and feel it shouldn't be called on you?


You missed the point. They've never been called when it could determine the match. And Edberg was never called anywhere near match point down in grand slam semi to my knowledge.
 

NamRanger

G.O.A.T.
With all due respect, PMerk, that just isn't true. As Tens pointed out, it happened with set point on the line to Edberg. If we're going to quibble about relative importance of critical points, we're really splitting hairs.


How many times was Edberg called for a FF on match point or the point before match point? 0. Same with pretty much every top professional tennis player.
 

pmerk34

Legend
How many times was Edberg called for a FF on match point or the point before match point? 0. Same with pretty much every top professional tennis player.

These people seriously believe it's because it NEVER happened before. They can't fathom the real reason is the official used discretion
 
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FiveO

Hall of Fame
"It never happened before."

And?

Edberg? While I don't recall anyone being called for footfaulting on a second serve to reach match-point, where's the evidence that Edberg did and wasn't called for it? Let's see the video tape of him foot faulting and not being called for it in that big spot.

Does that mean he did and he wasn't called for it, in other pivotal if not what turned out to be penultimate stages of a match?

No. Produce some evidence that indicates he wasn't. But, let's accept the premise for the moment and ask why go back that far?

How about other players? In big spots? And much more recently:

But the momentum switched in the sixth game of the second set as Hewitt was called for a harsh foot fault, losing his serve for the first time.

Federer took full advantage to level the match and as his game improved, the errors flowed from Hewitt as he failed to win a game in the third set.

"Maybe I got a little lucky with that foot-fault call, but I still felt like I started to play better and better," Federer said. "I was playing much more aggressive."

Hewitt, to his credit, refused to blame the poor call for his defeat.

"It's obviously disappointing when you hit an ace and get a foot-fault called," he said.

....That was in '04 AO SF then in the Final of the '05 AO....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/australian_open_2004/3428151.stm

The flare-up occurred during the seventh game of the third set - with the score at one set apiece and Hewitt leading 4-2 - after the Australian was called for a foot-fault while serving at 30-love.

Later in the game, after winning a point, Hewitt walked towards the linesman and appeared to abuse him. He was then hit with a code violation by the chair umpire Carlos Ramos for unsportsmanlike conduct.

The incident proved pivotal to the fortunes of both players, and possibly the outcome of the match. Safin ended up breaking Hewitt's serve in that game and in the Australian's next two service games to take control of the final, while Hewitt became unusually deflated.

Both players identified the seventh game as the crucial one in the match, which was eventually won by Safin 1-6, 6-3, 6-4, 6-4. But the Russian sympathised with Hewitt, saying the official was wrong to trigger the turning point in the match.

..."And I understand why Lleyton was pissed with the linesman. With all the respect to the linesman that are in Australia, you don't call foot-fault on first serve on an ace. But thanks to him, I had a chance like to break Lleyton."

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Tennis/The-turning-point/2005/01/31/1107020327134.html

Leading American Vince Spadea two sets to one but trailing 4-5 and 40-40 in the fourth, Safin footfaulted on his second serve by apparently having his back foot partly across the center line at the beginning of his serving motion.

The resultant double fault gave Spadea set point, which he clinched, but Safin bounced back well to win 3-6, 6-2, 6-3, 4-6, 6-4.

"It's stupid rules that somebody made in, I don't know, 1850," Safin said. "Now they give me the problems with these things and it shouldn't be that way."...

"I think the people in tennis are missing some rules," the Russian added. "It's really, really disappointing in the fourth set because [after] a foot fault on the second serve, you're facing set point.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/usopen08/news/story?id=3554203

An isolated incident?

Q. Have you had problems with that before?

MARAT SAFIN: No, I never. I started here in the states for some reason. I had the same thing in Cincinnati. Same thing in Cincinnati. For some reason ‑‑ I explain them, you should make, first of all, a warning. It's the same thing.

It's like talking to the wall, the same thing. Doesn't make any difference, so what I can do? They want me to be happy and they want me to be great in the press room, like be nice, speak nice and all these things. Why should I?

http://www.tennis-x.com/story/2008-08-26/l.php

Wait, doesn't that sound almost identical to the rationalizations offered in a much more recent and much, much more publicized presser?

And in just these few articles we've learned which elements of the foot fault rule that another player would prefer not called and at what times:

  • starting one's motion with one foot on the wrong side of the center mark
  • old rules
  • second serves to reach break point
  • at pivotal points in the match
  • on a first serve ace
  • up 30-0

I'll also point out that that's two other players and at 3 other venues, two of them being different Majors.

While not at the specific and literally (as it played out) penulitimate point of the match, foot faults have been called at what were "pivotal" and/or "turning points" of big matches, as described by both the onlookers and the participants, up to and including Men's Major Finals.

Does that mean they committed foot faults that weren't called later? Simply because they weren't called? Hewitt didn't learn from mistakes of prior years evidently and I'll point out that his racially charged comments during the '01 US Open match v. Blake came after a black linesperson who he refered to with his ugly comments had just called 2 footfaults against him.

So there's no reluctance on the part of linespersons to call footfaults on what the players perceive as pivotal points in matches, and viewed a pivotal whether they or their opponent were called for it and whether they won or lost.

So to me that indicates that linespersons are not reluctant to call it in big moments. But some interpret that guys like this, simply because they hadn't been called for it at 15-30 in the second in a best of 3 Major final that means that f.f.s aren't called in bigger spots. Why?

I would submit that if Serena vented a little, regathered herself, hit a service winner, an ace and went on to hold serve and then lost in a tie-break or went on to win the match, this ain't such big deal. It was made far bigger by what followed.

Why hadn't it happened earlier? I dunno, maybe other chronic offenders realized that if they continued to be called in big spots that they sensed at least in the short term of a single match, that they would call it on a second serve, down 15-30, 5-6 on the way to a straight set loss, a final set of a best of 3, in a 4th set in a position to win or lose, or in a deciding 5th set and became more cautious, again at least in the short term. But as their records indicate neither Hewitt nor Safin seemed to retain that message from event to event or even year to year in the same events. Far-fetched?

What's funny is that a lot of familiar names making the claim that prior offenders "must have" foot faulted in similar spots but weren't called for it are the same names saying that there is no evidence Serena did.

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Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
Edberg? While I don't recall anyone being called for footfaulting on a second serve to reach match-point, where's the evidence that Edberg did and wasn't called for it? Let's see the video tape of him foot faulting and not being called for it in that big spot.

Bud Collins said that Edberg was footfaulting on basically every serve during the '89 FO. And he said the same about Curren during '85 Wimbledon.

During the '85 W final they showed closeups of Curren's feet a few times. looked like he was clearly footfaulting to me. NBC's cameras weren't as close to the players during the FO though.

I'll try to make a note of it if I see Edberg getting called for it at a crucial time(have a lot of his matches on dvd, don't know how to put stuff on youtube though)

Think he may have been called for it on break point vs Courier in the '93 AO final. But he was rarely called on a 2nd serve foot fault.
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
Bud Collins said that Edberg was footfaulting on basically every serve during the '89 FO. And he said the same about Curren during '85 Wimbledon.

During the '85 W final they showed closeups of Curren's feet a few times. looked like he was clearly footfaulting to me. NBC's cameras weren't as close to the players during the FO though.

I'll try to make a note of it if I see Edberg getting called for it at a crucial time(have a lot of his matches on dvd, don't know how to put stuff on youtube though)

Think he may have been called for it on break point vs Courier in the '93 AO final. But he was rarely called on a 2nd serve foot fault.

Moose,

I'll accept your recollections on face value.

I'll ask though why are we going back in time 15 to 24 years to cite Edberg?

Let's accept for the moment that in Edberg's day late match f.f.'s were "discretionary".

It's not possible that making such a farce of a rule was addressed later?

Aren't the examples of Hewitt and Safin being called on it, and called on it in big spots, more applicable to the situation at hand, even if we accept that there was a period in which enforcement of the rule was lax or discretionary prior to the last ten years.

Which is more applicable? The last 10 years of rulings or 15 to 24 years ago?

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pmerk34

Legend
Bud Collins said that Edberg was footfaulting on basically every serve during the '89 FO. And he said the same about Curren during '85 Wimbledon.

During the '85 W final they showed closeups of Curren's feet a few times. looked like he was clearly footfaulting to me. NBC's cameras weren't as close to the players during the FO though.

I'll try to make a note of it if I see Edberg getting called for it at a crucial time(have a lot of his matches on dvd, don't know how to put stuff on youtube though)

Think he may have been called for it on break point vs Courier in the '93 AO final. But he was rarely called on a 2nd serve foot fault.[/QUOTE]


Of course he wasn't and never near any match point. Foot fault judges have been smart enough not to to call it on second serves thereby forfeiting points especially near match point in a Grand slam semi.
 
USTA rules couldn't be more clear that it is NOT a discretionary call. Lines people MUST call it if they see it. Further, no official is allowed to tell them otherwise.

If you really believe that a foot fault is not cheating and does not give the server an unfair advantage in a match then you ought to concede that a
smart player will stand back a half an inch or so as to avoid touching it.

The possibility of a foot fault makes a match more interesting in my opinion because there is yet one more variable and one more thing that might happen. As this discussion clearly indicates, it adds a lot of drama.

I have to say, with all the tantrums in this last tournament I'm a bit disappointed. Professional tennis players shouldn't be trying to get away with points they didn't earn. And to throw such tantrums on top of it is just embarrassing to watch. At least Serena finally admitted she was wrong. Not sure if anyone else has though.
 

pmerk34

Legend
USTA rules couldn't be more clear that it is NOT a discretionary call. Lines people MUST call it if they see it. Further, no official is allowed to tell them otherwise.

There are lots of rules that are clearly written and then enforced differently

If you really believe that a foot fault is not cheating and does not give the server an unfair advantage in a match then you ought to concede that a smart player will stand back a half an inch or so as to avoid touching it.

Then Edberg must have been stupid.

he possibility of a foot fault makes a match more interesting in my opinion because there is yet one more variable and one more thing that might happen. As this discussion clearly indicates, it adds a lot of drama.

It;s fun these boards yes but I can;t imagine anyone saying I can't wait for a foot fault call to help determine this match.

I have to say, with all the tantrums in this last tournament I'm a bit disappointed. Professional tennis players shouldn't be trying to get away with points they didn't earn. And to throw such tantrums on top of it is just embarrassing to watch. At least Serena finally admitted she was wrong. Not sure if anyone else has though.

Her behavior was inexcusable.
 
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FiveO

Hall of Fame
Bud Collins said that Edberg was footfaulting on basically every serve during the '89 FO. And he said the same about Curren during '85 Wimbledon.

During the '85 W final they showed closeups of Curren's feet a few times. looked like he was clearly footfaulting to me. NBC's cameras weren't as close to the players during the FO though.

I'll try to make a note of it if I see Edberg getting called for it at a crucial time(have a lot of his matches on dvd, don't know how to put stuff on youtube though)

Think he may have been called for it on break point vs Courier in the '93 AO final. But he was rarely called on a 2nd serve foot fault.

...also, and this is not directed at you Moose, but to ALL, "rarely", is not synonymous with "never".

Further, I would ask that if a player were to be called for a footfault on a first serves, with some regularity, who is:

  • willing to risk the slight edge he perceives it my give him or her to be a little closer, or
  • because of the moment trying to do just a little more with that particular first serve or get to net that millisecond quicker in a big spot, or
  • simply as a result of just plain inattention to detail,

(The Safin v. Spadea example (cited previously) aside where it was called on a second serve in a big spot.)

There's no possibility that the same player takes pause on a second serve and says to him or herself:

"I'm not going to repeat that mistake here, and just hand the opponent a point without making him/her hit a ball"

That can't be the explanation?

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Serena's behavior that night was wrong and she even realizes this, though I also feel she has already had any due punishment and it is time to move on now. However I also agree it was not appropriate at that juncture in such a huge match to call a foot fault, particularly when it was very close. I cant recall ever at 5-6, 15-30 in the potential losing set in a slam semifinal a player being called for a foot fault, or anything close to that.
 

pmerk34

Legend
Serena's behavior that night was wrong and she even realizes this, though I also feel she has already had any due punishment and it is time to move on now. However I also agree it was not appropriate at that juncture in such a huge match to call a foot fault, particularly when it was very close. I cant recall ever at 5-6, 15-30 in the potential losing set in a slam semifinal a player being called for a foot fault, or anything close to that.

Well that's of course because before Serena no one has ever foot faulted before in that situation. :)
 
Well that's of course because before Serena no one has ever foot faulted before in that situation. :)

Which of course is a little hard to believe to say the least. :lol: Add to that what happened to Serena 5 years earlier in that infamous Capriati match and it is easy to understand how the frusteration could have been boiling up at that moment.
 

jeansain

New User
I wouldn't say that the call was unprofessional, but it certainly was unfair. Calling it at that moment in a semi-final match against the favourite!!?? Either the lines woman purposely wanted to screw Serena, or she was stupid and didn't realize what a critical moment it was, nor the importance of the call. I think it was the latter.

I don't think there was foot fault either. So I can understand Serena, although I don't condone the outburst.
 

Mkie7

Rookie
.... in particular when there wasn't a footfault. Serena's rage was entirely understandable.

As a spectator and tennis fan I felt robbed. This could easily have been a legendary three-set thriller between two great players near the height of their game. A dumb lineswoman and an even dumber top official -- who apparently thought he should run the show and not the players -- prevented this from happening.

My question is... .. when is the perfect time to call a foot fault and who's job is it and who has the best view? Can the lines person decide when to call it at different stage of a match? Why have that rule if its not enforced? A player can also challenge that call right?
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
Certain TV commentators have taken umbrage to foot-fault violations at key times in matches. It seems to me that the rule is there for a reason, and to not call it would be wrong. However, it is viewed like traveling in the NBA: The official is vilified in the rare case that he or she actually makes the correct call. Any thoughts on the rule and its enforcement?
—Colin West, Rochester, Minn.

I'm with you. If the infraction occurs, call it, no matter what the stage of the match. I always get a kick out of fans who boo the foot faults. There's a guy a seated on the court whose sole job is to stare at a player's feet to make sure they don't touch the baseline. Yet some yutz in Row Z is sure he has a better angle.


Now, of course I agree with this sentiment. On topic. On point. Timely.

Of course the comments were written in 2002.

An Open to remember

Posted: Monday September 09, 2002 12:51 PM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/jon_wertheim/news/2002/09/09/mailbag/

The point is, it's not a new debate. Why?

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DNShade

Hall of Fame
1 point away from match point!!?? Proof?

How about on a second serve on match point to loose the match? There's that video that's been posted all over the place of that very thing happening and the looser going apesh!t afterwards. And that was at a challenger just recently. Just look back in this thread - I'm sure someone posted it.

In a GS - I don't have a log of every match I've seen - and on close points - players are usually a bit more careful about FFing - even more so when they have already been called multiple times on it.

By the way - this is sport. Just because something hasn't happened before doesn't mean that it won't or can't. That's actually the reason people show up and pay money.

But the point is that most pros learn how to serve without FFing - especially on important points - and most FF are on first serves because that's when the server is going for more and less likely to be moving forward etc - that's the reason you don't see more second serve FF - not because they aren't being called.

And people keep bringing up basketball and how refs don't call traveling etc. Well again - that is a judgement call by the ref on what constitutes traveling. FF are NOT JUDGEMENT CALLS!!!!!!!!!!! You either touch or go over the line or you don't. Period. The applicable comparison would be if a ref decided to let a player dribble the ball out of bounds and into the stands for a quick sec...do you think that a ref would just let that go and "let them play?" Especially if that same player had dribbled the ball out of bounds earlier in the game? Or maybe in game four of the world series the ump should call a foul ball fair because it was just barely foul and he should just let the players play in that late point of a game...Come on.

Bottom line is that it is a rule - and it is a rule that is enforced. They players know this and break the rule at their own risk. The reason you may have not seen it because these are top pros who usually know how to serve without FFing on important points. Not that they just weren't called on it. What is so hard to wrap your heads around this?

It's like you people are arguing that someone shouldn't have lost the match because they hit the ball long on the second serve on match point down. Same thing. She didn't get the ball in play on two tries - no judgement call - Serena herself admitted as much.

And all of you who watched the replay and said that you can't see the FF...well if you guys actually played tennis as opposed to just watching it on TV you'd see that she has a classic FF service motion - she moves her left foot forward as she goes into her motion - that is a classic tendency for someone who FFs all the time. The foot moves forward and pivots - I don't see how that can't possibly not be a FF judging on how close she starts to the line. To be honest I'm surprised she isn't called on FF more with that front foot movement as part of her motion.
 
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Baikalic

Semi-Pro
Surely, doing your job as a linesman/woman is professional, regardless of the call is at a critical juncture. If you call it the way the rulebook does, is that not professional?
 
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