Can a 4.0 beat a 5.0 ?

G

geissner

Guest
I know this sounds kind of ridiclous, but do you think on a given day
a very good 4.0 player can beat a 5.0 player?

I have been a top 5 4.0 player (#1 in 2005, #2 in 2006 ) , but I have started
playing the age group tournaments (the 50's). I am playing a big State tournament and should get by my first round and then I would play the #1
seed in the quarters. He is a former college player currently rated 5.0.

I have beaten some decent 4.5 players this year, but have never played a 5.0.

I don't have a power game. My strengths are a very hard,low slice backhand
groundstroke and approach and a very good reach at the net (6'2" and playvery tall).
The other thing I do well is fight and dig and get just about any ball back. I will literally leave my guts on the court.

I know you should never go on the court thinking you do not have a chance, but is realistic to think that on a given day and under the right conditions, that I could take several games or even win a set ot even the match?

What strategy would you use in this situation?

thanks for the advice
 
S

spot

Hall of Fame
If you have been the #1 4.0 player that long then it seems to me that if you were bumped up to 4.5 you would be in the middle of the pack. I am guessing there are lots of 4.0 players that you just crush. So start thinking of yourself as a 4.5 player and then the difference is manageable.
 
bluegrasser

bluegrasser

Hall of Fame
Yes, There are 5.0 teachers who feed balls all day long, but play few matches & if your not match tough you can lose to a player with inferior strokes, it happens all the time. There's a chapter in " Winning Ugly" that calls attention to this paradox.
 
G

grizzly4life

Professional
basically, you can if the people are misrated, as it sounds like you are. once you have huge success at your rating level, shouldn't you move up?

and there are lots of older and female 5.0's that good 4.0's can beat that i know.

brings up a question: are male/female supposed to be the same? because i don't see it that way at all in practice, but i'd think the descriptors would the same (of course, the descriptors don't take into account power or especially speed. i know 3.5 men with good forehand, great wheels and everything else pretty shaky, but "better" women will seldom hit a winner against them)
 
cam2

cam2

Rookie
It can happen but is unlikely. The 4.0 can also be playing out of his skull one week other than just the 5.0 playing badly.
 
K

kevhen

Hall of Fame
I am a strong 4.0 and have played some very strong 4.5s and usually lose like 6-2, 6-0. I have beaten weaker 4.5s in both singles and doubles. If the guy is legit 5.0 then you will lose pretty badly but maybe he hasn't played for awhile and is not really 5.0 anymore.
 
K

Kevo

Legend
I would expect a 5.0 player to hold his serve fairly easily against you. So the trick to me would be can you manage to break his serve. If not, even if you are on, I wouldn't expect you to win. That's not to say that you couldn't make a darn good match of it, and under the right pressure anyone can choke. So I would say just give it your best shot and enjoy the discovery process. I haven't had the chance to hit with anyone 5.0 or above in a long time, I'm sure it would be quite enjoyable.
 
10s talk

10s talk

Semi-Pro
I love how ratings are stated as if they are facts. If you dominate a level you should have been bumped up.
 
U

Urza187

New User
Just don't get intimidated by the fact you are playing a 5.0 and just play YOUR game. Don't try and rush or force something that is out of your comfort zone. Believe that your strokes can keep up with him and make sure that you give a good fight. Most of all, just have fun. Don't get too stressed out about it. I've seen a D1 college player romp the crap out of a good D3 player and the D3 player just had to laugh about it. He was hitting with someone extraordinary and it was fun for him to have a chance to play someone really good. Maybe you'll learn something from watching or playing this guy and elevate your game. You don't get better by beating up on players weaker than you. You get better by playing players better than you(well, not significantly better, but you get my point).
 
Fedace

Fedace

Banned
geissner said:
I know this sounds kind of ridiclous, but do you think on a given day
a very good 4.0 player can beat a 5.0 player?

I have been a top 5 4.0 player (#1 in 2005, #2 in 2006 ) , but I have started
playing the age group tournaments (the 50's). I am playing a big State tournament and should get by my first round and then I would play the #1
seed in the quarters. He is a former college player currently rated 5.0.

I have beaten some decent 4.5 players this year, but have never played a 5.0.

I don't have a power game. My strengths are a very hard,low slice backhand
groundstroke and approach and a very good reach at the net (6'2" and playvery tall).
The other thing I do well is fight and dig and get just about any ball back. I will literally leave my guts on the court.

I know you should never go on the court thinking you do not have a chance, but is realistic to think that on a given day and under the right conditions, that I could take several games or even win a set ot even the match?

What strategy would you use in this situation?

thanks for the advice
Click to expand...

Yea Of course, those USTA 4.0's that are really 5.0's that are just pretending to be 4.0. sure they can beat 5.0's;)
 
Mick

Mick

Legend
>> Can a 4.0 beat a 5.0 ?<<

Sure:

a 5.0 fell and injured himself and is unable to continue.

The 4.0 wins by default.

=> a 4.0 beats a 5.0
 
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Reactions: tlm
H

hasema

Rookie
Well, considering he's the number 1 seed he probably plays quite a bit and has alot of tourney experience. It might be a tough one for you but if you catch him on an off day then you might have a chance. But given that you guys will have a couple matches under you and your opponent i would think those chances are slim. Let us know how it turns out.
 
K

kevhen

Hall of Fame
Agree in that 1/1000 chance for 4.0 vs 5.0 if both legit and average for there level. Typical score would be like 6-1, 6-0.
 
Doc Hollidae

Doc Hollidae

Hall of Fame
Ratings are irrelevant. Anyone can beat anyone on any given day. Also with the USTA rating system, many players often underrated or overrated with their ranking.
 
LuckyR

LuckyR

Legend
First of all, you aren't a 4.0
The #1 4.0 is a 4.5 by definition, and should be bumped up.

As a 4.5, you can beat a 5.0 but it will be less than 50% of the time, perhaps way less.
 
S

shindemac

Hall of Fame
No. The higher rated player should win almost every time (like 99% even if he is having a bad day.) But this assumes they are both correctly rated. It sounds like your case is different and you might only be 1 ntrp away from him. In this case, yes. One lower ntrp can and do beat the higher rated player. In other words, just ignore ntrp and do the best you can.

It sounds simple, but the strategy is to use your strengths against their weaknesses as much as possible. For example, it could be using your forehand to attack their backhand. It's up to you to discover his weaknesses, and he will have some.
 
R

rocketsk8s

New User
I read this post before going into my match today... looking for some hope. I'm a strong 4.0 singles player. I had the opportunity to play a USTA rated 5.0 who is around 30yo and match tough. I don't think it's possible to close the rating gap. In my experience, which is none having played a 5.0, it felt like an experiment. Constant probing looking for something to exploit and realizing too late that 1. It either does not exist or 2. By the time you've chipped away at it, the stronger player cinches the gap. Like others here have called correctly the score was 1 and 2. While there is opportunity to show better with some more exposure to a higher level game, I don't think it's possible for a 4.0 to win a match against a 5.0 in match playing shape.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls

FuzzyYellowBalls

Legend
If it is 50 and above, maybe. If it is a former division 1 college and you have no college experience, probably not. An 18+ 5.0 in a big city might have played on the tour a bit.

A distinction should always be made between age level ratings and regular in my opinion, especially singles. Most of the responses aren't considering the age bracket of 50 plus.
 
tlm

tlm

G.O.A.T.
geissner said:
I know this sounds kind of ridiclous, but do you think on a given day
a very good 4.0 player can beat a 5.0 player?

I have been a top 5 4.0 player (#1 in 2005, #2 in 2006 ) , but I have started
playing the age group tournaments (the 50's). I am playing a big State tournament and should get by my first round and then I would play the #1
seed in the quarters. He is a former college player currently rated 5.0.

I have beaten some decent 4.5 players this year, but have never played a 5.0.

I don't have a power game. My strengths are a very hard,low slice backhand
groundstroke and approach and a very good reach at the net (6'2" and playvery tall).
The other thing I do well is fight and dig and get just about any ball back. I will literally leave my guts on the court.

I know you should never go on the court thinking you do not have a chance, but is realistic to think that on a given day and under the right conditions, that I could take several games or even win a set ot even the match?

What strategy would you use in this situation?

thanks for the advice
Click to expand...

Let see can a 4.0 beat a 5.0? Uh no, no and no.
 
A

Acegame

Rookie
Everything is possible if you manage to stay close to him till the end of the set. Even the best players get tight. Keep that in mind. Be a wall at the important points and mistakes will come.
 
tlm

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Acegame said:
Everything is possible if you manage to stay close to him till the end of the set. Even the best players get tight. Keep that in mind. Be a wall at the important points and mistakes will come.
Click to expand...

The 4.0 can try and be a wall all he wants and will still get spanked. Stay close until the end of the set now that’s hilarious, a 4.0 is never going to be close in a set against a 5.0 level player. It seems like many have not watched many 5.0 level players. I’ve never seen a 4.0 beat a 4.5 let alone a 5.0.
 
Last edited:
D

Daniel Andrade

Hall of Fame
tlm said:
The 4.0 can try and be a wall all he wants and will still get spanked. Stay close until the end of the set now that’s hilarious, a 4.0 is never going to be close in a set against a 5.0 level player. It seems like many have not watched many 5.0 level players. I’ve never seen a 4.0 beat a 4.5 let alone a 5.0.
Click to expand...
wow, using the USTA rankings, 0.5 means that huge difference? I'm trying to convert it to the rankings and categories from my country.
 
1HBHfanatic

1HBHfanatic

Legend
-i've strung rackets for a "5.0"! (told me himself, "i am a 5.0!"), who later complained that he hated polys and where hurting his arm !?!?!! :unsure:
-i later found out that he was in fact a 5.0 (AKA cop!) and not a 5.0NTRP
-but in regards to tennis, he was a 3.2 NTRP, not even a 3.5NTRP :eek:
-so yeah, a 4.0NTRP can in fact beat a 5.0(COP that's only a 3.2NTRP) o_O:-D
 
Last edited:
A

Acegame

Rookie
I just said that when you are able tot stay close in the set till the end, there is a chance he will get tight. Of course that will be very hard, but i have been it happen.
 
socallefty

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Acegame said:
I just said that when you are able tot stay close in the set till the end, there is a chance he will get tight. Of course that will be very hard, but i have been it happen.
Click to expand...
It is usually the lower ranked player who gets tight in close sets. The player who believes he is better and has more confidence usually plays relaxed in close sets because he expects to win. A 5.0 will feel no threat from a 4.0 and will play freely.
 
tlm

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Daniel Andrade said:
wow, using the USTA rankings, 0.5 means that huge difference? I'm trying to convert it to the rankings and categories from my country.
Click to expand...

It’s a pretty big difference in singles play. There are doubles specialists that are 4.5 level in doubles but would not play at that level in singles. I’m referring to guys that regularly play singles in their 4.0 or 4.5 leagues. In this scenario it is possible for the 4.0 to maybe get a win but I’ve never seen it happen, would have to be a bad day for the 4.5 guy.

But a 4.0 facing a 5.0 is going to be a total beat down like 1and 1 and done in around 45 minutes. Again this is comparing guys that play singles regularly, not some older guy that play doubles only and is still good enough to play at a high level.
 
D

Daniel Andrade

Hall of Fame
tlm said:
It’s a pretty big difference in singles play. There are doubles specialists that are 4.5 level in doubles but would not play at that level in singles. I’m referring to guys that regularly play singles in their 4.0 or 4.5 leagues. In this scenario it is possible for the 4.0 to maybe get a win but I’ve never seen it happen, would have to be a bad day for the 4.5 guy.

But a 4.0 facing a 5.0 is going to be a total beat down like 1and 1 and done in around 45 minutes. Again this is comparing guys that play singles regularly, not some older guy that play doubles only and is still good enough to play at a high level.
Click to expand...
How does one jump from 4.0 to 4.5?
Winning a tournament?
 
tlm

tlm

G.O.A.T.
A couple of years ago the best 4.0 player at my club was rated the top 4.0 USTA player in Chicago area. Occasionally the 4.5 team would have him play and the matches I saw he would lose like 1-1 or 2-2. A few years later this guy got good enough to play competitively at 4.5, but even then he mostly would just give a good battle and get an occasional win here and there.
 
D

Daniel Andrade

Hall of Fame
tlm said:
A couple of years ago the best 4.0 player at my club was rated the top 4.0 USTA player in Chicago area. Occasionally the 4.5 team would have him play and the matches I saw he would lose like 1-1 or 2-2. A few years later this guy got good enough to play competitively at 4.5, but even then he mostly would just give a good battle and get an occasional win here and there.
Click to expand...
Man that's a lot!

Here the category jump isn't as harsh.
Like yes, the other player would win more often than not, but I think enough for it to be like 6-3 6-3.
 
tlm

tlm

G.O.A.T.
In our club leagues there is no longer a 5.0 level and there are 4 doubles teams and only 1 singles player. The league’s are hard up for players so even if you win most of the time they will not bump you up.
 
shamaho

shamaho

Professional
geissner said:
I know this sounds kind of ridiclous, but do you think on a given day
a very good 4.0 player can beat a 5.0 player?
Click to expand...
If that wasn't the case then AT P rankings would be forever static !
Go into the court completely disregarding rankings... and just face the ball in front of you!
 
A

Acegame

Rookie
socallefty said:
It is usually the lower ranked player who gets tight in close sets. The player who believes he is better and has more confidence usually plays relaxed in close sets because he expects to win. A 5.0 will feel no threat from a 4.0 and will play freely.
Click to expand...

Good players have the ability to hit with more power and precision than lower ranked players. When they are loose at the beginning of a set this is much easier and they might outhit you. But when the score is even at the end of a set most players will be more carefull (less room for mistakes) so you get more chances in the rallies. That's all i'm saying.
 
tlm

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Acegame said:
Good players have the ability to hit with more power and precision than lower ranked players. When they are loose at the beginning of a set this is much easier and they might outhit you. But when the score is even at the end of a set most players will be more carefull (less room for mistakes) so you get more chances in the rallies. That's all i'm saying.
Click to expand...

The point you are missing is that a 4.0 player is never going to be in the set let alone close at the end of it.
 
tlm

tlm

G.O.A.T.
70sStrokes said:
If the 4.0 strengths go into the 5.0 weaknesses it may be 6-4, 7-5 but the 5.0 will still win.
Click to expand...

Lol sorry but that is not going to happen, the 5.0 basically has no weaknesses compared to a 4.0. The 4.0 would be lucky to get 2 games a set.
 
jdawgg

jdawgg

Semi-Pro
70sStrokes said:
If the 4.0 strengths go into the 5.0 weaknesses it may be 6-4, 7-5 but the 5.0 will still win.
Click to expand...

6-4, 7-5 would be a scoreline I expect to see of a 5.0 against a 5.0 lol.

Typical 4.0 against 5.0 scorelines are like 6-0, 6-1; 6-1, 6-1; 6-0, 6-0;

If you get more than 2-3 games consider it a win as a 4.0.
 
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