Can anyone verify this?

[Muppet]

I compared a full poly setup in one racquet to a full multi setup in another racquet. Otherwise the two frames are matched. I usually use poly/multi hybrids, so my form is geared toward poly technique with a unit turn and ATP eastern forehand and 2HBH strokes. I'm a self-rated 3.0.

It seemed to me that when I attempted to use my usual fast forehand stroke with the multi racquet that I was hurting my wrist. When I started my motion from the split step and used a continuous, slower stroke, I didn't need to make a timing adjustment with my wrist as I did when I swung faster. But I had to get a quicker jump on the ball and start my preparation sooner for a slower stroke. I just let the strings supply the power, but I couldn't generate as much spin.

With the poly string, I was using a fast stroke. So this gave me a little more time before swinging to track the ball and I could swing with the correct timing throughout the stroke and my wrist was safer.

So my question is, which is a more advanced string? Poly, which requires a high racquet speed and footwork to match, or multi, which requires early preparation and more skill to manipulate the ball without the aid of technology.

Or the question could become one of the following:

Is the more advanced string the one that is suited for more advanced players (requiring better skills?)
or
Is the more advanced string the one that employs modern technology the best to aid players' games?

But getting back to my experience of the two different strings, have others noticed the differences in preparation, stroke speed, ability to view the ball, and timing? I haven't seen any discussion of the difference in string selection, just that poly is a more advanced string for higher swing speeds.

 

[sureshs]

What tensions are you using? Swinging your usual forehand should not hurt the wrist, regardless of the string. Usually polys are strung at lower tension, and they are control strings, absorbing more energy. Maybe that is why you felt more pain with the multi. But regardless pain should not be there. You should look at your technique, tension, racket weight, and wrist strengthening exercises so that the problem does not become chronic.

 

[Muppet]

What tensions are you using? Swinging your usual forehand should not hurt the wrist, regardless of the string. Usually polys are strung at lower tension, and they are control strings, absorbing more energy. Maybe that is why you felt more pain with the multi. But regardless pain should not be there. You should look at your technique, tension, racket weight, and wrist strengthening exercises so that the problem does not become chronic.

I strung one MuscleWeave 95 with Gamma Gut 2000 17 @56 and the other one with a poly 10% less, probably 50 or 51. The polys I use are fairly soft for polys. Neither racquet felt harsh or solid to me. The pain in my wrist came from poor timing and trying to compensate for it with a bad habit. But when I slowed down the stroke for the multi the pain stopped and I felt much fuller and more satisfying contact.

I'm thinking that poly and multis require some very different techniques. And I was able to adjust. Multi @56 in a fairly heavy 95 18x20 really can't be considered too tight by anyone's measure. Dunlop's tension range for this racquet is 55-65.

I appreciate your input.

 

[sureshs]

A 12.2 oz 95 sq inch racket is quite demanding

 

[Muppet]

It's what I'm used to, but I have brought the weight down from 354g to 347g and I've decreased the HL balance from 8.5 to 8. I'm hoping this will be an improvement. I don't think I could learn to play with an 11.5 oz. racquet.

 

[sureshs]

Why do you prefer Eastern FH grip to SW?

 

[Shroud]

I strung one MuscleWeave 95 with Gamma Gut 2000 17 @56 and the other one with a poly 10% less, probably 50 or 51. The polys I use are fairly soft for polys. Neither racquet felt harsh or solid to me. The pain in my wrist came from poor timing and trying to compensate for it with a bad habit. But when I slowed down the stroke for the multi the pain stopped and I felt much fuller and more satisfying contact.

I'm thinking that poly and multis require some very different techniques. And I was able to adjust. Multi @56 in a fairly heavy 95 18x20 really can't be considered too tight by anyone's measure. Dunlop's tension range for this racquet is 55-65.

I appreciate your input.

Did you weigh the rackets? Multi should weigh less and you may be experiencing the pain due to less swing weight. If one is lighter, add some weight at 12 to compensate. Sometimes just a gram or two can mess up your timing and more importantly whether the racket is still, moving forward, or lagging at contact....the last two you have to adjust to and if you are using your wrist well that could cause some pain.

Sometimes the weight difference in strings can be fairly considerable especially if the gauges are different. My 2 cents is that some of the string craze is just a particular balance or sw because of the different weight of the strings.

 

[Shroud]

Sorry I don't see the point of multi and only used it twice in a hybrid, so I can't confirm exactly.

 

[GBplayer]

Sorry I don't see the point of multi and only used it twice in a hybrid, so I can't confirm exactly.

Full multi is nice on the arm with excellent accuracy, at least the Wilson NXT power at 59/55 in a 93 " frame is ! Would prefer full gut but to wet and damp where I live .

 

[Shroud]

Full multi is nice on the arm with excellent accuracy, at least the Wilson NXT power at 59/55 in a 93 " frame is ! Would prefer full gut but to wet and damp where I live .

Yeah yeah

Try some monogut zx! Gutlike softness with poly like spin

Its not the comfort i dont get, its the lack if snapback and durability

Glad it works for you

So what about Muppets wrist?

 

[fuzz nation]

It seemed to me that when I attempted to use my usual fast forehand stroke with the multi racquet that I was hurting my wrist. When I started my motion from the split step and used a continuous, slower stroke, I didn't need to make a timing adjustment with my wrist as I did when I swung faster. But I had to get a quicker jump on the ball and start my preparation sooner for a slower stroke. I just let the strings supply the power, but I couldn't generate as much spin.

With the poly string, I was using a fast stroke. So this gave me a little more time before swinging to track the ball and I could swing with the correct timing throughout the stroke and my wrist was safer.

Not a shock that things turned funky for you when switching to a string that lives in a significantly different range of the performance spectrum compared with the poly. With different strings comes different feel - that feedback and response at contact likely don't fit with your personal "normal" when you hit a decent shot with your poly. That can be confusing enough on its own - as though your racquet is sort of speaking an unfamiliar language and it's harder to tell the difference between good and bad contact.

Combine that different experience at contact with an altered swing tempo and now there's a LOT going on. I'd have to bet that before you relaxed and let the softer strings make your power, you could have been unconsciously steering the racquet a little more when you initially changed the speed of your stroke. Easier to be late to contact when deliberately trying to slow down, but that can force us to try to make last second adjustments with that late racquet to square it to contact. That means getting more wristy. I won't say that this is definitely what happened for you, but problems like this one have happened for me. Altering swing tempo is no quick and easy thing.

Considering that some pros use full beds of poly, others enjoy poly/natural gut hybrids, and a few others play full beds of gut, I wouldn't assert that one string is more advanced than another. Each type offers a typical sort of performance, but there are also some substantial variations within those groups. Some polys are much softer than others, some multis are much more firm or durable than others, etc. The good news is that because there's a wider range of options now than when I was a kid, there's a greater chance of finding a better fit with a certain string layout. Just be careful to not get bogged down with trying to sort through every single possibility.

Hopefully your wrist was only sore from trying to work the racquet a little too much (not actually injured). Sounds like you found your way to a proper adjustment in terms of loosening up. Just remember to stay loose in the future as you sample new equipment setups. Sampling different string layouts can be illuminating. You may find an alternative that you really like, but you may also appreciate your usual setup even more after comparing it with other options.

 

[sureshs]

I am still a little concerned about a 3.0 using such heavy equipment. I would like to see him use something more reasonable and see if the problem increases or decreases.

 

[Muppet]

Why do you prefer Eastern FH grip to SW?

It's more versatile. I can apply topspin to high balls and dig out low balls without a grip change. Also, on serve returns I can take a ball on either side without a grip change since I keep the same grip on my dominant hand when I hit a backhand (2HBH.) I've read and seen on videos that it's improper, but I've found that I don't get jammed on backhand body shots. My wrist is more pliable with my grip.

But mostly I hate grip changes while I'm supposed to be tracking the ball. When I have a high shot to my forehand side that I get a good look at, I am able to switch half way to semi western and hit good topspin. But adopting it as my standard grip wouldn't be as versatile.

 

[Muppet]

Did you weigh the rackets? Multi should weigh less and you may be experiencing the pain due to less swing weight. If one is lighter, add some weight at 12 to compensate. Sometimes just a gram or two can mess up your timing and more importantly whether the racket is still, moving forward, or lagging at contact....the last two you have to adjust to and if you are using your wrist well that could cause some pain.

Sometimes the weight difference in strings can be fairly considerable especially if the gauges are different. My 2 cents is that some of the string craze is just a particular balance or sw because of the different weight of the strings.

I took the strings' weights into account. I did a quick mod after stringing both to bring them to the same specs. But I can see your point that even 2g difference in the head would compromise my timing. The only other way I can think of to make the multi string play more like a poly would be to string the multi several pounds tighter. Maybe then I could use a faster stroke and still have control. But then it would be more fragile.

 

[sureshs]

I would rather that you don't listen to shroud and start messing with weight. At 3.0, equipment is seldom the issue. Any decent frame 10.5 to 11 oz unstrung and flex 65 or less should be good to determine if you are doing something wrong which causes wrist pain.

 

[Muppet]

Not a shock that things turned funky for you when switching to a string that lives in a significantly different range of the performance spectrum compared with the poly. With different strings comes different feel - that feedback and response at contact likely don't fit with your personal "normal" when you hit a decent shot with your poly. That can be confusing enough on its own - as though your racquet is sort of speaking an unfamiliar language and it's harder to tell the difference between good and bad contact.

Combine that different experience at contact with an altered swing tempo and now there's a LOT going on. I'd have to bet that before you relaxed and let the softer strings make your power, you could have been unconsciously steering the racquet a little more when you initially changed the speed of your stroke. Easier to be late to contact when deliberately trying to slow down, but that can force us to try to make last second adjustments with that late racquet to square it to contact. That means getting more wristy. I won't say that this is definitely what happened for you, but problems like this one have happened for me. Altering swing tempo is no quick and easy thing.

Considering that some pros use full beds of poly, others enjoy poly/natural gut hybrids, and a few others play full beds of gut, I wouldn't assert that one string is more advanced than another. Each type offers a typical sort of performance, but there are also some substantial variations within those groups. Some polys are much softer than others, some multis are much more firm or durable than others, etc. The good news is that because there's a wider range of options now than when I was a kid, there's a greater chance of finding a better fit with a certain string layout. Just be careful to not get bogged down with trying to sort through every single possibility.

Hopefully your wrist was only sore from trying to work the racquet a little too much (not actually injured). Sounds like you found your way to a proper adjustment in terms of loosening up. Just remember to stay loose in the future as you sample new equipment setups. Sampling different string layouts can be illuminating. You may find an alternative that you really like, but you may also appreciate your usual setup even more after comparing it with other options.

I guess I wasn't clear that I tested the two racquets against a wall. So when I had trouble with using a fast swing with multis, I was able to shift gears into my old familiar multi string stroke and had instant relief from the wrist pain. When I tried the poly racquet with my current fast stroke, the wrist didn't get worse. But when I was attempting to hit multis with a fast poly stroke my wrist had to play the translator. It didn't like that.

Now I know that I will need a very different technique to use multi strings. It's not just a matter of feel, spin, and durability. All of the elements of your motion need to change. And in the end, neither string is inferior or superior. It's just a matter of how you want to play and what results you want to get.

 

[Muppet]

I am still a little concerned about a 3.0 using such heavy equipment. I would like to see him use something more reasonable and see if the problem increases or decreases.

I've been a terminal 3.0 for decades. In 1990, I switched to one of the first tweeners, a Wimbledon put out by Prince. It was a lot lighter than my Dunlop Black Max II and I loved the way it made the ball rise over the net on my topspin 2HBH. It was also great for my serve. But it was stiffer and on my forehand it didn't allow for the massaging of the ball that I was used to doing with my very flexy Dunlop (note the connection to my problem above.) And the Wimbledon was lousy for volleys, which I love.

So the next time I got a racquet I went with a MuscleWeave 200G 95 18x20. That was about 1999. I had lost my form to the new technology and I wanted it back. The MW is pretty hefty, but like I said above it's what I'm used to. I use a good deal of leg loading and torque on the torso. So I use that stored energy to pull the racquet around. I'm sure that if I had more opportunity to play more frequently I'd be at a higher level.

 

[Shroud]

I would rather that you don't listen to shroud and start messing with weight. At 3.0, equipment is seldom the issue. Any decent frame 10.5 to 11 oz unstrung and flex 65 or less should be good to determine if you are doing something wrong which causes wrist pain.

You don't understand my post. Please re-read it until you do.

 

[Shroud]

I took the strings' weights into account. I did a quick mod after stringing both to bring them to the same specs. But I can see your point that even 2g difference in the head would compromise my timing. The only other way I can think of to make the multi string play more like a poly would be to string the multi several pounds tighter. Maybe then I could use a faster stroke and still have control. But then it would be more fragile.

Hey did I mention not getting multi?

Its a dead end for me at least.

Kudos for taking the weight into account. You are probably the only one...

 

[sureshs]

You don't understand my post. Please re-read it until you do.

I understood your post. That is why I cautioned him not to fall into the equipment fine-tuning trap at this point in his playing life.

 

[Muppet]

Hey did I mention not getting multi?

Its a dead end for me at least.

Kudos for taking the weight into account. You are probably the only one...

The only reason I strung up multifilament was scientific curiosity. My bachelors is in Physics and I had to get into my life lab to experience the difference between the two types of strings first hand. What really works best for me in this racquet is a lively silver poly main with a muted multi cross. I find that the multi cross works great with the frame's low twist weight and the feel of the poly main balances the feel of the cross and provides good spin. I've tried a synthetic gut cross and it really doesn't measure up to multi for me.

 

[GBplayer]

Yeah yeah

Try some monogut zx! Gutlike softness with poly like spin

Its not the comfort i dont get, its the lack if snapback and durability

Glad it works for you

So what about Muppets wrist?

Multi is not much good for a string breaker . I have no issue with durability.

As for the wrist problem Muppet needs to work out what he is doing differently. Over the years I have had many and various injuries and they are generally linked to changes in my game , which I am always trying to improve. If I try something new and it starts to hurt , I stop doing it and try something different.

 

[Muppet]

I think the problem with my wrist that I've had in the past came from transitioning to a stiffer equipment setup and continuing to play as if I was still using a flexy racquet and string that allowed me to use my wrist more.

With the multi setup in my comparison to poly, it was a matter of transitioning from my usual poly stroke to the same stroke with multi strings. The response of the ball on the strings was different and my wrist was trying to compensate to get the timing right. I'm just going to go back to poly/multi on my MuscleWeaves and be happy with it.

Has anyone else noticed that a plasticky poly like Pro Red Code will need two more lbs. tension than a metallic poly like Cyberflash? They have equal stiffness and power, but since the silver polys have a deadness to them they seem to need less tension.

 

[GuyClinch]

If we are comparing a fairly stiff tightly strung multi - to a softer 10% loser strung poly....(which is the logical change)..

+much better on string breakage.
+much better spin. (might only be 10% or whatever but its actually noticeable)..
+no signifcant technique change (maybe it does change but I don't have to think about it).
+no pain of any kind on a fresh strung racquet.
-much shorter useable 'life' of the string
-more cost.
-different sound..
-pain can crop up after 20 sets or so..(guessitmate).

I found power to be about the same and don't feel I need to change my technique alot.. Poly has a bad rep. But I think lots of rec players know it can help give you an edge - especially before a big match.. You just have to restring often and be careful about racquet choice.

The reason not to use Poly is that it makes too little a difference with regards to win losses with regard to cost. The reason to use it is if you want to win a close match at your level.

 

[Tight Lines]

If you are a true 3.0, then poly will not help you. By definition, your swing speed cannot take advantage of the extra spin you could get from poly. Poly is just a very stiff string that can grab and pinch the ball on impact to give you extra spin. But you will need a very high swing speed. I think you are way overthinking this. JMHO.

Harry

 

[Tight Lines]

II usually use poly/multi hybrids, so my form is geared toward poly technique with a unit turn and ATP eastern forehand and 2HBH strokes.....

And what does that mean? If you use a multi, then you don't have to do the unit turn and shouldn't use an ATP forehand?

Harry

 

[GuyClinch]

If you are a true 3.0, then poly will not help you. By definition, your swing speed cannot take advantage of the extra spin you could get from poly. Poly is just a very stiff string that can grab and pinch the ball on impact to give you extra spin. But you will need a very high swing speed. I think you are way overthinking this. JMHO.

That's way oversimplified.

#1) Some of the modern racquets that 3.0s might use like the ESP and Steam lines only function properly with Poly.

#2) Many 3.0 players are not bad at every aspect of tennis -often they just have some glaring errors. I knew a guy - 2 years ago now who was a legit 3.0. He had a huge serve and a good forehand - better then guys way above his level. But the rest of his game (including second serve) was not just bad - but comically bad. He has since advanced to 4.0 now. But guys on the rise like this frequently have good parts to their game.

#3) OP is a 3.0 who seems to play better with a Poly..

 

[Shroud]

I think the problem with my wrist that I've had in the past came from transitioning to a stiffer equipment setup and continuing to play as if I was still using a flexy racquet and string that allowed me to use my wrist more.

With the multi setup in my comparison to poly, it was a matter of transitioning from my usual poly stroke to the same stroke with multi strings. The response of the ball on the strings was different and my wrist was trying to compensate to get the timing right. I'm just going to go back to poly/multi on my MuscleWeaves and be happy with it.

Has anyone else noticed that a plasticky poly like Pro Red Code will need two more lbs. tension than a metallic poly like Cyberflash? They have equal stiffness and power, but since the silver polys have a deadness to them they seem to need less tension.

Not sure I get this. If you compensated for the weight of the strings, the timing should be the same and have nothing to do with the string. Now you may be compensating for less spin (caused by the multi locking) with your wrist, but I cant see that the contact point and swing timing would change, just the result.

If you are looking for a softer string with spin, try the zx, but I think you have right?

 

[Muppet]

Not sure I get this. If you compensated for the weight of the strings, the timing should be the same and have nothing to do with the string. Now you may be compensating for less spin (caused by the multi locking) with your wrist, but I cant see that the contact point and swing timing would change, just the result.

If you are looking for a softer string with spin, try the zx, but I think you have right?

I haven't tried ZX. And honestly I'm not looking for a softer string for my MW racquets. I'm very satisfied with a silver poly main with an inexpensive multi cross. The purpose of this thread is to compare a poly to a multi and see what difference in feel and what adjustments to my form I might have to make. With multi 10% higher tension and the racquets matched with the different strings, I found that with a fast stroke the softness of the multi still required me to fudge the timing with my wrist. Another variable that I could consider is stringing the multi another 5 lbs. tighter to see if I can match the timing and response of the poly. But even then the multi would have a quicker response than the poly and the multi would be more prone to breakage.

 

[Muppet]

And what does that mean? If you use a multi, then you don't have to do the unit turn and shouldn't use an ATP forehand?

Harry

What I am suggesting here is that since fast strokes match well to poly strings, a slower multi stroke needs to start earlier, preferably from the split step. With a fast poly stroke, the unit turn brings the racquet back to about head level and the racquet is held there while the player tracks the ball. Just before the ball bounces the stroke starts and with the racquet's speed it can hit the ball with more spin.

I think the soft multi string bed is not suited for this fast of a stroke and the wrist will be left to correct for the different timing. But I could be wrong. Maybe timing the impact with a unit turn and ATP stoke could be gotten used to with a soft string bed. If I try this again, I'll boost up the multi tension by 4 lbs. and monitor my wrist movement more closely.

 

[Muppet]

If you are a true 3.0, then poly will not help you. By definition, your swing speed cannot take advantage of the extra spin you could get from poly. Poly is just a very stiff string that can grab and pinch the ball on impact to give you extra spin. But you will need a very high swing speed. I think you are way overthinking this. JMHO.

Harry

I can't beat 4.0 players, but I can hit balls with high racquet speed in the sweet spot of my 95" racquets consistently. I hit hard enough to make good use of soft to medium stiffness polys. There are players out here who can hit with enough force to use polys but for other reasons don't have the game to be rated very high. For me, I think I'm focusing too much on stroke mechanics and movement and not enough on tactics and strategy. How does one do both at the same time?

 

[GuyClinch]

I think the soft multi string bed is not suited for this fast of a stroke and the wrist will be left to correct for the different timing. But I could be wrong. Maybe timing the impact with a unit turn and ATP stoke could be gotten used to with a soft string bed. If I try this again, I'll boost up the multi tension by 4 lbs. and monitor my wrist movement more closely.

Fed used to use all gut string beds - and he has fast strokes. So again no. Wrist should not hurt with any string material - and I don't even understand this 'wrist correct' theory..
Sounds like your forehand is broken.. You can swing fast with a soft string bed..

 

[Muppet]

That's way oversimplified.

#1) Some of the modern racquets that 3.0s might use like the ESP and Steam lines only function properly with Poly.

#2) Many 3.0 players are not bad at every aspect of tennis -often they just have some glaring errors. I knew a guy - 2 years ago now who was a legit 3.0. He had a huge serve and a good forehand - better then guys way above his level. But the rest of his game (including second serve) was not just bad - but comically bad. He has since advanced to 4.0 now. But guys on the rise like this frequently have good parts to their game.

#3) OP is a 3.0 who seems to play better with a Poly..

Thanks especially for #3). In addition to the durability and added spin of poly, I like the way the ball comes off the string bed. Less pop than with softer strings.

 

[Muppet]

Fed used to use all gut string beds - and he has fast strokes. So again no. Wrist should not hurt with any string material - and I don't even understand this 'wrist correct' theory..
Sounds like your forehand is broken.. You can swing fast with a soft string bed..

Yeah, when I jumped into a full bed of multi with my usual strokes that I use for poly, my wrist didn't like it. This is not a pervasive problem for me. Just something I noticed while comparing a full bed of multi to a full bed of poly. I could see immediately that I was correcting for the changed timing with my wrist, so I stopped it. I continued with the multi with a full, slower stroke starting from the split step and the pain went away.

I can see Fed using a unit turn and ATP stroke with full gut, getting used to it, and moving forward with it. Maybe even without the wrist pain that I felt. But my usual stroke is the unit turn with the ATP stroke with a poly/multi setup and it doesn't hurt me.

 

[LeeD]

I have several sets of rackets using both poly and multi, the poly usually 15 lbs. softer.
Aero 500's.
Bio 300T's.
Mfil 200's.
Almost no difference in play.