Can we have an era worse than 2020-2023 where Finalists are Casper Ruud, Berettini, Kyrgios , Stefanos ?

Is 2020-2013 is the weakest era in history

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NeutralFan

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
Can we imagine an era worse than this where Casper Ruud makes multiple finals, Stef makes multiple finals , Kyrgios and Berettini makes final? That too in span of 4 years .so out of 16 slams we had these clowns making 7 finals and then add Meddy to the mix, Albiet 2 tiers above them but not an ATG making 4 finals. That's total of 11 finals and then add Z and theim lol.
 
Aussie Darcy

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
Wouldn't group Tsitsipas in that list as a player who's won 2 Masters titles and the YEC BUT Ruud, Kyrgios and even Berrettini are very poor.
 
Z.Qinwen is my hero

Z.Qinwen is my hero

New User
Not going to defend him too much ... but Ruud played well on the way to those finals. You can only play the people across the net from you. If all the people you play are mugs is it your fault? I would argue no. For reference here are his notable opponents on the way to the final.
22 FO Hurkacz, Rune, Cilic
22 USO Khachanov, Berretini
23 FO Rune, Zverev, Jarry
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
Z.Qinwen is my hero said:
Not going to defend him too much ... but Ruud played well on the way to those finals. You can only play the people across the net from you. If all the people you play are mugs is it your fault? I would argue no. For reference here are his notable opponents on the way to the final.
22 FO Hurkacz, Rune, Cilic
22 USO Khachanov, Berretini
23 FO Rune, Zverev, Jarry
Click to expand...
Ruud gets no love here. Agree he played well in these tournaments and deserves better feedback. Hard working pro.
 
itrium84

itrium84

Hall of Fame
NeutralFan said:
Can we imagine an era worse than this where Casper Ruud makes multiple finals, Stef makes multiple finals , Kyrgios and Berettini makes final? That too in span of 4 years .so out of 16 slams we had these clowns making 7 finals and then add Meddy to the mix, Albiet 2 tiers above them but not an ATG making 4 finals. That's total of 11 finals and then add Z and theim lol.
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2004-2009 era is around 6% stronger than 2018-2023 era. That's not a huge difference.
 
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Pencak

Rookie
Enqvist, martin, medvedev in 99. Korda, rios, moya, corretja, phillipoussis in 98. Moya, pioline, rusedski in 97.
 
C

ChrisJR3264

Hall of Fame
accidental said:
Casper Ruud will end up the best of that group
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Casper Ruuds 2022 run was due to injuries and covid mandates impacting a few top 5 players. Add in a pretty favorable draw in two GS events he kinda lucked his way into some finals.

I think him getting to RG final again: he lucked into it with a meh draw and luck of playing a zverev trying to work his way back.

Clay will always be his strong suit. One can argue he might sneak a GS title on the surface at some point in his career.
 
NeutralFan

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
ChrisJR3264 said:
Casper Ruuds 2022 run was due to injuries and covid mandates impacting a few top 5 players. Add in a pretty favorable draw in two GS events he kinda lucked his way into some finals.

I think him getting to RG final again: he lucked into it with a meh draw and luck of playing a zverev trying to work his way back.

Clay will always be his strong suit. One can argue he might sneak a GS title on the surface at some point in his career.
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Ruud is not winning any gs lol this is no longer 2020-2023 nor any mugs like Kyrgios or Berettini or stef will be making multiple finals.
 
F

fedfan24

Hall of Fame
Bubcay said:
Yes...

Juan Carlos Ferrero, Martin Verkerk, Rainer Schüttler, Mark Philippoussis, Gastón Gaudio, Guillermo Coria, Mariano Puerta, Marcos Baghdatis, Fernando González

Guess the years...
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2020-2023 is worse, plus in those years you had Roddick, Nadal, Agassi, Safin, Hewitt, Djokovic so it’s much much stronger.
 
Silentchimera

Silentchimera

Semi-Pro
fedfan24 said:
2020-2023 is worse, plus in those years you had Roddick, Nadal, Agassi, Safin, Hewitt, Djokovic so it’s much much stronger.
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Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, Andre Agassi, Lleyton Hewitt, Andy Roddick, Marat Safin, Gaston Gaudio, Thomas Enqvist, Tim Henman, Juan Carlos Ferrero, Scud! (Mark Philippoussis who had great talent according to Pete Sampras), Giullermo Coria (he played one of the greatest 5 set matches on clay of all time in 2005 with Rafael Nadal after his Gaudio loss in the final of 2004 RG), David Ferrer, Tommy Haas, Yevgeny Kafelnikov, Fernando Verdasco, Patrick Rafter, Goran Ivanisevic, Nicolas Kiefer, Carlos Moya, Richard Gasquet, Nikolay Davydenko, David Nalbandian, Novak Djokovic, Alex Corretja, Andy Murray, Mikhail Youzhny, Tommy Robredo, Robin Soderling, James Blake, Sebastian Grosjean, Ivan Ljubicic, Gustavo Kuerton, Gilles Simon, Albert Costa, Marcelo Rios, Magnus Norman, Stan Wawrinka, John Isner, Thomas Berdych, Gael Monfils, Marcos Baghdatis, Jo Wilfred Tsonga, Pete Sampras...

All of these players were born 5 years either side of Federer or competing during 2000-2002 and Federer's peak years from 2003-2007. At this point it's just a massive own goal for Djokovic fans to start trying to shame Federer's generational talent and the 2000-2007 fields by dropping names lol. An era with this depth of quality players makes the 90s generation of talent (who came after Djokovic) look absolutely embarrassing!

Consider that older Federer also had to face peak Djokovic! (and all of his generational talent including Murray lol) and peak Nadal! (massive age handicap for Federer during 2008-2020) with minimal CIE stat padding and its a total wash at this point.

It kind of looks the equivalent of Federer playing Mario Kart on 200cc while Djokovic was playing on 50cc. All of this while we keep getting top 5 wins over 90's gen pumped up and told about the epic struggles of Djokovic in his ultra strong era. Best to leave the competition debate alone at this point because it just doesn't fly anymore lol. The "weak era" champion turned out to have BY FAR the stronger competition in the fields he played in and the stronger generational talent surrounding him when all was said and done. Federer is the "strong era" champion... It's truly amazing what people can almost make you believe when they keep saying the same thing over and over...
 
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NeutralFan

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
Silentchimera said:
Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, Andre Agassi, Lleyton Hewitt, Andy Roddick, Marat Safin, Gaston Gaudio, Juan Carlos Ferrero, Scud! (Mark Philippoussis), Giullermo Coria, David Ferrer, Tommy Haas, Fernando Verdasco, Carlos Moya, Richard Gasquet, Nikolay Davydenko, David Nalbandian, Mikhail Youzhny, Tommy Robredo, Robin Soderling, James Blake, Sebastian Grosjean, Ivan Ljubicic, Gustavo Kuerton, Gilles Simon, Albert Costa, Marcelo Rios, Magnus Norman, Stan Wawrinka, Thomas Berdych, Gael Monfils, Jo Wilfred Tsonga...

All of these players were born 5 years either side of Federer. At this point it's just a massive own goal for Djokovic fans to start trying to shame Federer's generational talent by dropping names lol. An era with this depth of quality players makes the 90s generation of talent who came after Djokovic look absolutely embarrassing!

Consider that older Federer also had to face peak Djokovic! (and all of his supposed strong competition including Murray lol) and peak Nadal! (massive age handicap for Federer during 2008-2020) with minimal CIE stat padding and its a total wash at this point.

It kind of looks the equivalent of Federer playing Mario Kart on 200cc while Djokovic was playing on 50cc. All of this while we keep getting top 5 wins over 90s gen pumped up and told about the epic struggles of Djokovic in his ultra strong era. Best to leave the competition debate alone at this point because it just doesn't fly anymore lol. The "weak era" champion turned out to have BY FAR the strongest competition when all was said and done. Federer is the "strong era" champion... It's truly amazing what people can almost make you believe...
Click to expand...
@The Guru
 
F

fedfan24

Hall of Fame
Silentchimera said:
Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, Andre Agassi, Lleyton Hewitt, Andy Roddick, Marat Safin, Gaston Gaudio, Thomas Enqvist, Tim Henman, Juan Carlos Ferrero, Scud! (Mark Philippoussis who had great talent according to Pete Sampras), Giullermo Coria (he played one of the greatest 5 set matches on clay of all time in 2005 with Rafael Nadal after his Gaudio loss in the final of 2004 RG), David Ferrer, Tommy Haas, Yevgeny Kafelnikov, Fernando Verdasco, Patrick Rafter, Goran Ivanisevic, Nicolas Kiefer, Carlos Moya, Richard Gasquet, Nikolay Davydenko, David Nalbandian, Novak Djokovic, Alex Corretja, Andy Murray, Mikhail Youzhny, Tommy Robredo, Robin Soderling, James Blake, Sebastian Grosjean, Ivan Ljubicic, Gustavo Kuerton, Gilles Simon, Albert Costa, Marcelo Rios, Magnus Norman, Stan Wawrinka, John Isner, Thomas Berdych, Gael Monfils, Jo Wilfred Tsonga, Pete Sampras...

All of these players were born 5 years either side of Federer or competing during 2000-2002 and Federer's peak years from 2003-2007. At this point it's just a massive own goal for Djokovic fans to start trying to shame Federer's generational talent by dropping names lol. An era with this depth of quality players makes the 90s generation of talent who came after Djokovic look absolutely embarrassing!

Consider that older Federer also had to face peak Djokovic! (and all of his generational talent including Murray lol) and peak Nadal! (massive age handicap for Federer during 2008-2020) with minimal CIE stat padding and its a total wash at this point.

It kind of looks the equivalent of Federer playing Mario Kart on 200cc while Djokovic was playing on 50cc. All of this while we keep getting top 5 wins over 90s gen pumped up and told about the epic struggles of Djokovic in his ultra strong era. Best to leave the competition debate alone at this point because it just doesn't fly anymore lol. The "weak era" champion turned out to have BY FAR the stronger competition and stronger generational talent surrounding him when all was said and done. Federer is the "strong era" champion... It's truly amazing what people can almost make you believe when they keep saying the same thing over and over...
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Absolutely. That post was a serious own goal… those guys alone are at least as good as 90s gen before adding in Fed’s actual main rivals between 03-07.

Djokovic is now firmly the weak era champ which is why he has managed to take all the records by lasting the longest. I’ll always remember the epic big 3 battles we had from 07-12 though.
 
BauerAlmeida

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
In the early 2000s, you had Verkerk, Schuettler and Clement making slam finals and Costa, Johansson and Gaudio winning them.


Aussie Darcy said:
Wouldn't group Tsitsipas in that list as a player who's won 2 Masters titles and the YEC BUT Ruud, Kyrgios and even Berrettini are very poor.
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Ruud is nowhere near as bad as people make him out to be. He made THREE slam finals. Regardless of the era that is quite an achievement, you can fluke one final, but THREE?

I don't see Anderson making two slam finals as something very different.
 
BauerAlmeida

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
Silentchimera said:
Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, Andre Agassi, Lleyton Hewitt, Andy Roddick, Marat Safin, Gaston Gaudio, Thomas Enqvist, Tim Henman, Juan Carlos Ferrero, Scud! (Mark Philippoussis who had great talent according to Pete Sampras), Giullermo Coria (he played one of the greatest 5 set matches on clay of all time in 2005 with Rafael Nadal after his Gaudio loss in the final of 2004 RG), David Ferrer, Tommy Haas, Yevgeny Kafelnikov, Fernando Verdasco, Patrick Rafter, Goran Ivanisevic, Nicolas Kiefer, Carlos Moya, Richard Gasquet, Nikolay Davydenko, David Nalbandian, Novak Djokovic, Alex Corretja, Andy Murray, Mikhail Youzhny, Tommy Robredo, Robin Soderling, James Blake, Sebastian Grosjean, Ivan Ljubicic, Gustavo Kuerton, Gilles Simon, Albert Costa, Marcelo Rios, Magnus Norman, Stan Wawrinka, John Isner, Thomas Berdych, Gael Monfils, Jo Wilfred Tsonga, Pete Sampras...

All of these players were born 5 years either side of Federer or competing during 2000-2002 and Federer's peak years from 2003-2007.
Click to expand...

Now do a similar list with all the players that were born 5 years on either side of Djokovic or that competed against Djokovic (because that list includes players with a far bigger age difference than 5, such as Agassi) and you get an even better list of players.



Silentchimera said:
At this point it's just a massive own goal for Djokovic fans to start trying to shame Federer's generational talent by dropping names lol. An era with this depth of quality players makes the 90s generation of talent who came after Djokovic look absolutely embarrassing!
Click to expand...

And? 90s generation was not Djokovic's main competition for a long time, only a very brief period. Federer had NO ATG being born for 10 years before him and for 5 years after him. Djokovic had an ATG being born basically at the same time as him and one 6 years before. Though the first sentence here is pretty ironic because that is what people try to do to diminish Djokovic's current competition lol, just dropping names.



Silentchimera said:
Consider that older Federer also had to face peak Djokovic! (and all of his generational talent including Murray lol) and peak Nadal! (massive age handicap for Federer during 2008-2020) with minimal CIE stat padding and its a total wash at this point.
Click to expand...

Yes, Djokovic didn't have to face Nadal and Murray during his whole career who are the same age as him. Nadal was a top player until 2022, only last year Djokovic finally had a a year with no ATG around. Federer had more.



Silentchimera said:
It kind of looks the equivalent of Federer playing Mario Kart on 200cc while Djokovic was playing on 50cc. All of this while we keep getting top 5 wins over 90s gen pumped up and told about the epic struggles of Djokovic in his ultra strong era.
Click to expand...

Federer in his mid-30s was losing to the kind of players that Djokovic would get mocked for winning slams against. Cilic, Seppi, Gulbis, Raonic, Millman, TSITSIPAS. And that's excluding 2013, and not playing RG for three straight years.


Silentchimera said:
Best to leave the competition debate alone at this point because it just doesn't fly anymore lol.
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Federer had tougher competition post-prime. Djokovic had tougher competition in his prime and pre-prime.



Silentchimera said:
It's truly amazing what people can almost make you believe when they keep saying the same thing over and over...
Click to expand...

Yup.
 
Silentchimera

Silentchimera

Semi-Pro
fedfan24 said:
Absolutely. That post was a serious own goal… those guys alone are at least as good as 90s gen before adding in Fed’s actual main rivals between 03-07.

Djokovic is now firmly the weak era champ which is why he has managed to take all the records by lasting the longest. I’ll always remember the epic big 3 battles we had from 07-12 though.
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Djokovic is absolutely amazing but this one is done and dusted... It took Djokovic and Nadal (a total clay freak with the perfect game to hurt him) born 5-6 years later to bring him down from the Gods to Everest lol. I think they brought the very best out of Federer in terms of what he was capable of after he exited his peak. Champions like the big 3 want to play the very best and they are all greater because of the matches they played with one another.
 
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BauerAlmeida

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
Z.Qinwen is my hero said:
Not going to defend him too much ... but Ruud played well on the way to those finals. You can only play the people across the net from you. If all the people you play are mugs is it your fault? I would argue no. For reference here are his notable opponents on the way to the final.
22 FO Hurkacz, Rune, Cilic
22 USO Khachanov, Berretini
23 FO Rune, Zverev, Jarry
Click to expand...


Yeah, for some reason Ruud became a punching bag and scapegoat in this forum but he had to face some great players in those runs and played very well at times. Even in the finals themselves, he was good in two out of three.

As a player he doesn't have major weaknesses and he had one of the best forehands around when he was doing well.

It would have been a travesty had he been #1 which he almost was, but that was mostly due to Nadal being injured and Djokovic not being allowed to play.
 
F

fedfan24

Hall of Fame
Silentchimera said:
Djokovic is absolutely amazing but this one is done and dusted... It took Djokovic and Nadal (a total clay freak with the perfect game to hurt him) born 5-6 years later to bring him down from the Gods to Everest lol. I think they brought the very best out of Federer in terms of what he was capable after he exited his peak. Champions like the big 3 want to play the very best and they are all greater because of the matches they played with one another.
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absolutely! Yeah Djokovic is unreal what a player and what an athlete. But wins over Ruud and Tsitsipas won’t elevate him above Fedal in my view.
 
F

fedfan24

Hall of Fame
BauerAlmeida said:
Now do a similar list with all the players that were born 5 years on either side of Djokovic or that competed against Djokovic (because that list includes players with a far bigger age difference than 5, such as Agassi) and you get an even better list of players.





And? 90s generation was not Djokovic's main competition for a long time, only a very brief period. Federer had NO ATG being born for 10 years before him and for 5 years after him. Djokovic had an ATG being born basically at the same time as him and one 6 years before. Though the first sentence here is pretty ironic because that is what people try to do to diminish Djokovic's current competition lol, just dropping names.





Yes, Djokovic didn't have to face Nadal and Murray during his whole career who are the same age as him. Nadal was a top player until 2022, only last year Djokovic finally had a a year with no ATG around. Federer had more.





Federer in his mid-30s was losing to the kind of players that Djokovic would get mocked for winning slams against. Cilic, Seppi, Gulbis, Raonic, Millman, TSITSIPAS. And that's excluding 2013, and not playing RG for three straight years.




Federer had tougher competition post-prime. Djokovic had tougher competition in his prime and pre-prime.





Yup.
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Djokovic pretty much won his last 12 slams vs 90s gen + ancient Federer and post prime Nadal.

Federer lost to Tsitsipas aged 37. 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 AO forms doesn’t lost there in a million years. He also had 15+ average to high level runs in his 30s and was stopped by some very good players. Of course he has a few bad defeats but they’re irrelevant in the overall picture.
 
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fedfan24

Hall of Fame
BauerAlmeida said:
Yeah, for some reason Ruud became a punching bag and scapegoat in this forum but he had to face some great players in those runs and played very well at times. Even in the finals themselves, he was good in two out of three.

As a player he doesn't have major weaknesses and he had one of the best forehands around when he was doing well.

It would have been a travesty had he been #1 which he almost was, but that was mostly due to Nadal being injured and Djokovic not being allowed to play.
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he’s a complete non entity, did you watch the previous two RG finals? They were basically walkovers. It’s not as if Djokovic or Nadal had to bring some super sayan level either, average solid level was enough.
 
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fedfan24

Hall of Fame
BauerAlmeida said:
Yes, Djokovic didn't have to face Nadal and Murray during his whole career who are the same age as him. Nadal was a top player until 2022, only last year Djokovic finally had a a year with no ATG around. Federer had more.
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This is incredibly misleading.

Murray was a non factor post back surgery and didn’t reach Djokovic on grass once since 2013.

Nadal was past his prime after 2014 RG and from 2015-2023 you can count on one hand the amount of times he was a legit contender vs djokovic - 2018 W, 2020 RG, 2022 Rg and arguably 21 RG where he was injured. That’s still 15 slams Djokovic hoarded since 2015 with no ATG level opponent in sight.
 
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fedfan24

Hall of Fame
Years without any prime ATG level opponents:

Federer - arguably 2003/2004

Djokovic - 2015, 2016, 2021, 2022, 2023

2001-2002 don’t count for Federer as 1 he was pre prime and 2 Pete and Agassi were still knocking around. 2005-2006 doesn’t count as nadal was there on clay and from 2007 grass. 2017-2020 are excluded thanks to excellent clay showings from Nadal.

It’s clear to see Djokovic benefitted the most from poor competition.
 
Silentchimera

Silentchimera

Semi-Pro
Z.Qinwen is my hero said:
Not going to defend him too much ... but Ruud played well on the way to those finals. You can only play the people across the net from you. If all the people you play are mugs is it your fault? I would argue no. For reference here are his notable opponents on the way to the final.
22 FO Hurkacz, Rune, Cilic
22 USO Khachanov, Berretini
23 FO Rune, Zverev, Jarry
Click to expand...
(in the season he turned 38) Federer destroyed a cocky Ruud (in the season he turned 21) 63 61 76 at RG. This was Ruud's favourite surface and Federer's worst. Federer hadn't even played on clay in the previous two seasons. By the end of the season they turned 21 Nadal had won RG three times in a row and lost a close match in 5 sets to peak Federer in a Wimbledon final. To be fair Federer didn't win his first Wimbledon until he was a year older...
 
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