Classical style/technique at amatuer levels

[Bungalo Bill]

I didnt say anything at all about going all the way down to the ground and then lifting up, nor was I suggesting anything at all remotely like this...what a lame response. LOL yourself.

Man dude you got one chip on your shoulder. Quit being so jealous! lol

I am sorry your response on the Eastern volleys backfired on you. I am sure that was a deep embarassment. But you really need to stop holding a grudge. LOL

...pulled muscles......think I will have a beer with the boys on that one.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

I didnt say anything at all about going all the way down to the ground and then lifting up, nor was I suggesting anything at all remotely like this...what a lame response. LOL yourself.

Isn't it easy to twist someone's words? To use them against themselves or imply something the poster may not have meant?

Do you think twisting someone's words and trying to humilate them works?

Can you think of a conversation recently that you tried to do the same?

My post in that conversation was not directed towards you at all. But you definitely chose to take your stab in a very harsh way. Doesn't that go against who you say you are? I am sorry in the end it backfired on you. But hey, had you asked for me to explain myself maybe it woudn't of had to go that far.

...pulled muscles..:roll:..think I will have a beer with the boys on that one.

 

[NoBadMojo]

oh glad you brought up the volley grip thread BB...i've pasted a portion of your attack on me below which you are welcome to reread and then tell me if you think your words and laughing at me are acceptable...you may have set the record for LOL's in a single missive and you posted the same thing about 4 times. Bill, some while ago you personaly apologized to me for you being a real jerk and said you have mended your ways and such...i accepted your apology...you are having a very serious relapse dude as evidenced by your twisting things around that i post and also the really ridiculous post you made which i copied for your reading pleasure below. if you dont think people can pull muscles by pushng of an unfamilar stance, thats' pretty bad, then to laugh at me for posting that is much less than acceptable. i think your behaviour now is even worse than it was before. i think you need some sort of help. thanks
<snip>


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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoBadMojo
I'm back in this thread. couldnt resist.
-Read Tennismastery's post. That's the one in this thread that is accurate.


Yeah I guess I must be lying. lol


Quote:
Not because it supports what I say, but because it's true. If teaching pros are teaching that eastern grips are fine for volleys, no small wonder todays players cant volley worth a lick (in general)
-There's lots of myths about volleying and volleying with the continental grip. I'm not going to get into those.


Actually it is the opposite NBM, I am surprised you are think there are "coaches" only teaching the Eastern grip for volleys. There aren't. Plus, the Eastern grip does NOT screw up the volley motion - it is the same motion.

I provided the clear proof that it does happen at the pro level. lol


Quote:
-BB's first entry in this thread starts with <snip> The Eastern forehand grip and the Eastern backhand grip are excellent volley grips! <end snip>. This is patently NOT true. In fact, presented with any sort of difficult ball at all, they are the WORST grips to use to volley.


Again you are stilling missing the boat. They are not the worse grips to volley with. They are very good grips to volley with and our friend Rafter proves it! Reaching man, reaching.


Quote:
They DONT put your racquet head in the right position (on anything but a high easy swinging volley) and they encourage wrist pronation which you really dont want on any sort of regular volley as that encourages erratic volleys.


LOL, this is great. In reality, the Eastern grip doesn't encourage anything! The same can be said with the Continental making people feel they have to chop and twist their wrist! Man, no doubt, strong penetrating volleys can be made with the easterns. They just slam the ball.


Quote:
Also on any sort of low ball, it's really really difficult to try and volley with an eastern grip or anything aproaching one <and if you are playing anyone with any sort of skills, you WILL get tons of low volleys>.


LOL, it is like I am watching Saturday Night Live, the jokes just keep coming! Didn't I tell everyone that the low ball is a myth and we will hear from "coaches". Take a look at Rafter and see how he handles his shot. Look at all that topspin, look at how awkward he looks - end of story.

I also loved this, "you will get "TONS" of low balls", super, the eastern grip is going to nail it. Just bend those knees! lol. The eastern grip places the wrist in a strong position on both sides. I got to remember that stretch "tons of low balls."


Quote:
the only time an eastern grip is fine for a volley is on a swinging volley, and at that point you almost might as well go semi western.


Oh my, ROFL, this is great. This is better than SNL. I just posted a video with one of the best volleyers in the game and you say that it is only good for a swinging volley. LOL! Never heard so much love!


Quote:
your wrist breaks on eastern type grips rather than lays back like it does on a continental volley..eastern is a power shot rather than a control shot, and volleys are mostly all about precise and compct control and slice (which is far better with continental).


What? Huh? Your wrist breaks on Eastern grips? What? Sorry, but one of the biggest faults of the Continental is the weak wrist position. Everyone knows this. The Eastern does not place the wrist in a weak position.


Quote:
and for someone to say they know which grips pro players use to volley with is also patently untrue..sometimes the pros themselves dont even know. as to Rafter, I was able to copy that little wrist flick forehand volley he has to a degree...i do it with a continental.


LOL, you might want to use the Eastern! You might actually hit it better. Probably the trouble you had imitating Rafter was you didn't realize he was in an Eastern grip all these years! LOL!!!


Quote:
Props to Tennismastery for really knowing what he's talking about.
People should learn tennis the right way to start with and that means continental on volleys, and later grip changing to something else when presented with an opportunity for a swnging volley as their skillset improves. anything else really really delays the development of their volley.


Lol, yeah poor ol BB, he teaches all the wrong things. Offers no proof to the windbags that say "easterns" are bad grips, he offers no proof whatsoever. Forget the film, it lies, poor ol' BB, telling lies again. LOL.

People should learn those Continental even when their bodies can't. The trouble with NBM is he is just a coach that played tennis. He has no background in human learning theory or performance improvement or instructional design, so how would he know? He is just going on his "hunch" and what others "his groupthink" says. He has been successful with a few students and has his own way to teach. But geez, come on, when someone presents proof - be quiet!

Proof is there for all to see. The Eastern is used. The Easterns are good volley grips, they place the wrist in a much stronger position (check Rafter and the awesome support he is getting. Look at the strength as he moves the racket through the ball. Awesome stuff! POW! Eastern grip at its best!

The Continental is the staple grip for volleys (no argument) and should be used as the main grip.

You will not turn into a pumpkin if you start to use the Easterns. It is not like the motion for the serve. The Easterns can hit angles, and place the wrist in a much stronger position than the Continental. End of story!

Swinging volley, LOL.

 

[NoBadMojo]

and since we're being candid Bungalow Bill. I'm most definitely not jealous of you at all..in fact, i am very glad to not be like you. truth be known i feel sorry for you more than anything else.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

and since we're being candid Bungalow Bill. I'm most definitely not jealous of you at all..in fact, i am very glad to not be like you. truth be known i feel sorry for you more than anything else.

LOL, oooookay, whatever you say. Can't wait for the next battle.

Didnt you love when I posted Rafter making a volley with the Eastern grip?

Aaaaahhhhhh, wham, bam, thank you mam! LOL, I feel sorry for you too. (sniff, sniff)

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Bill, some while ago you personaly apologized to me for you being a real jerk...

Yes, I did. But I retract it. But aren't you being a jerk now? You are not someone I could give a damn about.

You should reread that threaded discussion again to see how the sparks got started. You might find yourself holding the matches and lighting the fire.

But of course you dont want to see that.

and said you have mended your ways and such...i accepted your apology...you are having a very serious relapse dude as evidenced by your twisting things around that i post and also the really ridiculous post you made which i copied for your reading pleasure below.

Quit living in the past you loser. What are you going through depression? Talk about today. The apoligy has ended awhile back. Here, I will spell it our for you, WE ARE AT ODDS FROM NOW ON. Get it?

if you dont think people can pull muscles by pushng of an unfamilar stance, thats' pretty bad, then to laugh at me for posting that is much less than acceptable. i think your behaviour now is even worse than it was before. i think you need some sort of help. thanks
<snip>

No I don't. It is not that I don't believe there is a chance for it, it is the probability of it happening.

The athletic stance will build up the lactic acid in the muscles but the player will relieve the muscle sooner rather than later. The chances of a pulled muscle by practicing the athletic stance is not that high like any other sport. We are talknig about the athletic stance - do you know what that is?

A player has a much higher chance of developing sore muscles (a good thing) then pulled muscles.

Additionally, the Easterns are excellent volley grips. A player can volley a ball very effectively with these grips. There is no doubt about this! The weakness is the grip change, but if a player was caught or choose to use this grip, they can and will be able to hit the ball very effectively. I dont want to embarass you about this but I think I need to! There are only three effective grips for volleys, Eastern forehand, Continental, and the Eastern backhand.

 

[AngeloDS]

What are your thoughts on this long strokes. I see a lot of people taking really short strokes, now-days. Not comptact strokes, but short strokes. Hard to explain.

I remember being taught long beautiful strokes, but a lot of people can't make that adjustment to keep their long strokes after the amatuer levels because of pace. Being able to setup a bit earlier, and make good contact.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

What are your thoughts on this long strokes. I see a lot of people taking really short strokes, now-days. Not comptact strokes, but short strokes. Hard to explain.

I remember being taught long beautiful strokes, but a lot of people can't make that adjustment to keep their long strokes after the amatuer levels because of pace. Being able to setup a bit earlier, and make good contact.

as I mentioned in a discussion with Vin (in Rackets):

I think the secret at the amateur level is to SLOW DOWN, many people are not preparing properly, and as a result are having short swings and wristy swings and elbowy swings

go through that loop as if you had all the time in the world, deliberately, but START IT EARLY

and you need a complete loop with both kinds of racquets (heavy/light); you cheat yourself if you don't go through it completely

 

[NoBadMojo]

Bill I didnt bother to read all of your recent posts when i discovered they were yet more personal attacks on me.
You really need to get off of the these personal attacks on me Bungalo Bill..it has turned into some sort of very dysfunctional morbid obsession and is not reflecting well on you as a person
All you are doing is twistng around things I post, taking them out of context, and using it as some sort of very weak reason to attack me. People reading this stuff can easly see this.
This thread was going along quite well, and perhaps someone reading this picked up a little something useful, until you came in here with your mean spirted dysfunctional unwarranted attacks and blew it up. so the only thing people will be picking up about you is that you go around attacking people because you arent wired up right

 

[sureshs]

as I mentioned in a discussion with Vin (in Rackets):

I think the secret at the amateur level is to SLOW DOWN, many people are not preparing properly, and as a result are having short swings and wristy swings and elbowy swings

go through that loop as if you had all the time in the world, deliberately, but START IT EARLY

and you need a complete loop with both kinds of racquets (heavy/light); you cheat yourself if you don't go through it completely

Nice in theory, but the temptation to use a quick and dirty stroke is very much there. It might be a matter of not losing to your friend at the club, or not letting down your partner in doubles, or just establishing your reputation as a challenging player so others will want to play with you. I know that when I started out couple of years ago playing tennis, I had a dinky serve which just went in, and people were happy to call me to play doubles. I could at least get the point rolling.

 

[vin]

Nice in theory, but the temptation to use a quick and dirty stroke is very much there. It might be a matter of not losing to your friend at the club, or not letting down your partner in doubles, or just establishing your reputation as a challenging player so others will want to play with you. I know that when I started out couple of years ago playing tennis, I had a dinky serve which just went in, and people were happy to call me to play doubles. I could at least get the point rolling.

I don't think Marius is equating a 'quick' swing with an incomplete or pusher swing as you seem to be doing. At least that's not what I do when I swing too fast. I think it's more a matter of taking an already complete swing that is too fast and slowing it down to make it smoother and more consistent. And as Marius said elsewhere, this especially applies with a heavier racket.

 

[Mahboob Khan]

I do believe that amatuers can also adopt the modern style of play or at least copy some elements into their games such as:

-- For normal shots square stance, for wide/out of reach balls open stance.

-- Starters can begin either with Eastern or semi-western grips!

-- they can adopt more of an athletic stance

-- more upper body turn

-- they can also learn from the modern tactics e.g. insideout forehands, etc.

-- if they are slicing most of the time because of their continental grip, their slice can be made better.

-- amatuers can also learn and adopt some of the modern physical conditioning techniques.

I have learned from modern tennis technique and tactics, so can you!

 

[fastdunn]

Geez, what is the guy going all the way down to the ground and then liftng up? Come on. LOL

====================================================

Fast Dunn, you should really try and contact Pat Dougherty. He has done some excellent research into the athletic foundation. He indicates tennis is one of the worst sports in teaching the athletic foundation while othe sports are well ahead. I happen to agree very much with that.

The bottom-line is you need to get in shape to handle what you won't be used to. Staying on your toes (and balls of the feet) , lowering your butt about a foot will put you in a good position to automate the athletic foundation.

[....]

Hey, BB. Thank you for further clearing things up for us.

When I was about 2.5 - 3.0 level, I've had a clinic hosted by a coach
named Bob Hansen in northern california. He taught us pretty much
nothing but "balanced" movements (by the way, this guy was one of
the best and the most passionate coach I've met).
He made me realize tennis is largely lower body exercise.

I'll try to contact Pat Dougherty or read his research materials. Since he's done
extensive research on footwork, I'm hoping he has advices on my
somewhat unique situation: I have over-pronated flat foot (mostly
my left foot). Staying on my toe is an extra effort (pain) to me.
I'm realizing this is pretty big disadvantage in tennis.....

 

[Kaptain Karl]

I remember being taught long beautiful strokes, but a lot of people can't make that adjustment to keep their long strokes after the amatuer levels because of pace. Being able to setup a bit earlier, and make good contact.

Are you familiar with the "Hit-Bounce-Hit" training tip? Even those with abbreviated swings can adjust their timing well, using this tip.

Long strokes. Short strokes. It does not matter.

- KK

 

[AngeloDS]

Haha, I don't need help. I just see it, my strokes are fine . But a lot of people (especially girls), lose their long strokes after they break amatuer levels and move a step up.

What I mean by short strokes is by hitting late and not being able to push through it. It's hard to explain, the backsetup is the same but it's short. Not a compact stroke.

 

[NoBadMojo]

Kaptain,
I'm familiar w. the Timothy Gallway Bounce-Hit deal from Inner Tennis. I use it sometimes in my lessons. Typically, I will get a lesson whose brain is addled with tech jargon, a lot of unecessary tips, a lot of unecessary information, and some bad info from lesssons with 'coaches' who baffle people with this sort of thing, and they are simply stuck and frustrated..i can see this after spending 5 minutes with them. they then tell me 'i dont care about pronation, supination, wrist angles, etc etc, i would just like to play better tennis, get exercise, and have fun'. these people have been told so many things that they are the deer in the headlights and have no chance to unlock. so for these people i tell them..let's relax and have some fun and we'll get you playing some tennis...so i tell them to just swing naturally, get them to do the bounce-hit thing and to a person they all immediately hit the ball better...at this point, i can tell what i have to work with as far as natural ability goes, and can start stroke progressions based upon how many lessons i willhave them for. so i am a big fan of bounce-hit. it frees your mind, and causes you to focus on ball contact ONLY rather than a myriad of other technical unecessary things, and i get to see what i have to work with..and it does work with swings of any length. thanks for bringing this up.
Disclaimer: If someone chooses to personally attack me about this post, it only serves to further reveal their true nature

 

[mark1]

mojo, i see that you have switched back to the old tour 10MP. just curious, whats the reason for the change?

 

[NoBadMojo]

aye Mark..not really a change..i never really fully left the Gen1. i teach w. the VE and still play w. the Gen1 after playing the VE for a while. i guess i changed my sig when i switched to the Klip ArmourPro string. they are both really great frames to me, but I am 3 years familiar with the Gen1 and it is difficult for me to change frames..it takes me months to fully adjust..to get those angles back and such. a new frame isnt going to improve me..i have to improve me, if i can at my old age.. i will probably next teach w. the DNX8, and if i think it gives me a bump, i will switch to it..what did give me a little bump is the upcoming Klip Legend ArmourPro gut..thats a no brainer..string it up and no adjustments needed to get a bit more work on your ball...even more than the regular Legend gut.
Disclaimer: If someone chooses to personally attack me about this post, it only serves to further reveal their true nature

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Hey, BB. Thank you for further clearing things up for us.

When I was about 2.5 - 3.0 level, I've had a clinic hosted by a coach
named Bob Hansen in northern california. He taught us pretty much
nothing but "balanced" movements (by the way, this guy was one of
the best and the most passionate coach I've met).
He made me realize tennis is largely lower body exercise.

Bob Hansen, now why does that name sound familiar? I wonder if...let me check on that name.

I'll try to contact Pat Dougherty or read his research materials. Since he's done
extensive research on footwork, I'm hoping he has advices on my
somewhat unique situation: I have over-pronated flat foot (mostly
my left foot). Staying on my toe is an extra effort (pain) to me.
I'm realizing this is pretty big disadvantage in tennis.....

Pat is a great guy and knows his stuff. I love talking to him. His athletic foundation research is very good. He along with I (and others) believe tennis is behind with this kind of movement while other sports it is a norm.

You know, that athletic belt he created is intended to help a player develop the stamina and skills to move in the athletic foundation.

With your situation, I would be careful not to aggrevate your foot. Just do what you can do. Keep things within reason for yourself. Remember we aren't spring chickens anymore.

Bob Hanson....hmmmmmm...

 

[The Gorilla]

great thread