Comment on my kick serve (Video)

[MrAndersDK]

Hello

I've been playing tennis for a couple of years but have not had coaching on my serve until last week. I've trying to develop a consistent second serve with a lot of kick to it. By now I'm able to get the ball in to the service court very consistently, however I would like to add some more power and a lot more kick to it, so it gets more difficult to return. I would normally ask my coach, but we are just started on the summer break from tennis (3-4 weeks), so I would like to improve it myself.

From the video (link below) you can see my attempts on the kick serve. I have edited the video in such a way that you first see the serve and then a slow motion of the same serve. There are five attempts in the video.

So far my own observations are:

1) I dreaded seeing my self in slow motion, but I was actually pleasantly surprised, it look more like a serve than expected

2) All but the second serve in the clip actually was a serve inside the service court (it was in the net, think contact point is too low).

3) The first serve was by far the best one, think it may be because I had a higher more natural contact point?

4) I can feel i get some topspin on the ball, and it is definitely not a flat serve.

So what do you guys think I need to work on, to take my serve from a consistent serve to something that is more of a weapon, with more power and a lot more kick? It is hard for me to identify, besides the low contact point on some of the serves.

Video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXAZ5aBbCbk&feature=youtu.be

 

[LeeD]

1. Side angle on tells nothing about your serve, you need a back view about 5' high to show how your ball bounced, and it's arc.
2. Appears your toss is too far into the court, so maybe it's a pure topspin serve, not a kick or a twist. Once again, need a back view to tell.
3. A good kick or twist serve should bounce at least chin high (5'3") at the baseline and up to 6'6" high at the baseline. Does yours?

 

[MrAndersDK]

No thats the problem. Thought it Was possible to identify whats wrong with my: thoss, swing, movement, timing, etc, from the video without seeing the ball trajectory. Next time i get the chance i will film it from behind.

 

[LeeD]

The travel of the ball is the MOST important factor.
I know a old, fat, out of shape occasional player who can hit a twist serve 6' high at the baseline, every time, and still can hit all the other serves. He uses almost no motion, is stiff and injured, and can't move.

 

[MrAndersDK]

Ok i see. But if you saw the ball you would see that it does not bounce that high, so I need to change something.. It is a safe serve but easy to return. Ok, if it is impossible to identify errors in My technique i will wait until i have a backview video.

 

[LeeD]

Your serve doesn't bounce high because you toss too far into the court, resulting in a topspin serve, but not a kicker or twist.
EVERY serve is easy to return. I can lefty twist my serves 6' high at the baseline, and a good player just crushes it with topspin to short NML on my court.
I"ve gotten lucky and twisted a few a good 8" above the head of a ranked girl's 12, and she lobs it back everytime, no problem for her. Problem for me, she lobs it over the head of my partner, so I have to stop, change directions, and cover.

 

[MrAndersDK]

Ok, i actually thought top spin serve and kick serve were the same thing. So you think that thossing closer the service line, would be the main thing i need to change to improve my kick.

Not sure What you meen about the easy return. Why are all serves easy to return?

 

[WildVolley]

I've got to disagree with LeeD about your video. I think it is not bad at all and the slow motion helps emphasize some errors.

The video shows a number of form errors that you need to correct if you'd like to hit a higher level serve. First, make certain that you are holding a continental grip. You sort of slap at the ball and I wouldn't be surprised if you're cheating toward eastern fh. Second, your kinetic chain is all messed up. You seem to almost be pausing the hand and racket in the drop. Then you sort of push forward and slap the ball with an arming motion. That's a big problem and shows that you don't have the timing down.

If you want to pause, your pause should be in the "trophy" position and then as your elbow accelerates up toward the ball the hand and racket head lag behind and accelerates up into the ball. You are currently sort of doing a "waiter's tray" position into the drop" and then accelerating up into the ball from that position, which is robbing you of racket head speed and some of the throwing motion.

LeeD has it nailed in that your toss is too far forward for a topspin serve. You need to toss it less in front of you if you're going to heavily brush it.

If you can take and old racket out into a field and practice throwing it, that should help you with your kinetic chain issues.

 

[MrAndersDK]

@WildVolley Thanks for your comments. I think I've use the continental grip, however I may pronate too early making me slapp the ball. I will try to make sure the next time I'm using the continental grip, and then try to hold back on the pronation.

I'm not sure I understand the pausing thing. What do I need to change, is it because I need to lead more with my elbow, or...? So what am I'm doing wrong from where I'm in the trophy pose?

Again thanks for helping me out.

 

[WildVolley]

@WildVolley Thanks for your comments. I think I've use the continental grip, however I may pronate too early making me slapp the ball. I will try to make sure the next time I'm using the continental grip, and then try to hold back on the pronation.

I'm not sure I understand the pausing thing. What do I need to change, is it because I need to lead more with my elbow, or...? So what am I'm doing wrong from where I'm in the trophy pose?

Again thanks for helping me out.

Watch how your racket almost pauses in the drop. It is as though you are lowering the racket into the drop with your muscles and then trying to accelerate up from there. What that is doing is robbing you of racket head speed.

If you want a pause in your swing, it should be during the "trophy" position, not in the drop.

Look at this video of Roddick serving. Roddick hit one of the heaviest topspin second serves in the world. Notice how he pauses in trophy position and then the racket stays in motion. He uses his legs to drive himself up and allows his hand and racket to lag his elbow into the drop. The racket does not pause in the drop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZbxKuLEP_o

Hope that helps you see what you are doing differently and incorrectly.

 

[peoplespeace]

@WildVolley Thanks for your comments. I think I've use the continental grip, however I may pronate too early making me slapp the ball. I will try to make sure the next time I'm using the continental grip, and then try to hold back on the pronation.

I'm not sure I understand the pausing thing. What do I need to change, is it because I need to lead more with my elbow, or...? So what am I'm doing wrong from where I'm in the trophy pose?

Again thanks for helping me out.

I dont think that it looks too bad in terms of rythm and relaxation and ur hip rotates nicely for the coiling and i dont think that ur toss is too far into the court for a normal first serve, but for a kick serve yes. Forget about the kick serve and concentrate on a normal flat first serve with abit of topspin and sidespin.

Now, one thing that is totally off is that u are hitting the ball much much too low, so low that ur hitting arm is quite bent at impact. The hitting arm needs to be straight! Work first on that imo.

 

[WildVolley]

Now, one thing that is totally off is that u are hitting the ball much much too low, so low that ur hitting arm is quite bent and impact. The hitting arm needs to bee straight! Work first of that imo.

Good point. Especially after the first serve in the series, his arm is too low and he's sort of arming the ball. Either he needs to change his acceleration pattern or toss the ball higher.

I still maintain that he is accelerating too late and that is part of the reason he is hitting low and arming the serve.

Lee's suggestion to shoot some video from behind would also give a better view of the arm at contact than the side angle.

 

[MrAndersDK]

ok thanks, I looked closely at the video and tried to shadow a movement where I throw my elbow up more, so it also leads more. I actually think that that straightens the arm out, because I get a more whip effect in the forearm. So yours comment and WildVolley's may actually be the same, WildVolley comment is though maybe more on the cause of the arm not straightening.

 

[MrAndersDK]

@WildVolley: futhermore is it correct that the step you think I'm needing (what you call pausing and arming too much) is step number 12 on the picture series on this page: http://lockandrolltennis.com/serve/#flat_serve ?

I'm kinda going straight 11 (the racket drop) to 13 (hitting the ball), so i'm missing the elbow up, racket trailing behind part? is this what you meen?

 

[WildVolley]

@WildVolley: futhermore is it correct that the step you think I'm needing (what you call pausing and arming too much) is step number 12 on the picture series on this page: http://lockandrolltennis.com/serve/#flat_serve ?

I'm kinda going straight 11 (the racket drop) to 13 (hitting the ball), so i'm missing the elbow up, racket trailing behind part? is this what you meen?

Yes, that's right. You are missing part 12, but I think the problem is developing before 11. Your racket is slowing at 11 and then you're pushing from there into the swing. The slowing, if necessary (it is more of just a timing preference) should occur at 9 and then you should be passively dropping the racket due to your shoulder and elbow moving up.

That should give you the lag that you see in picture 12.

I think you can start to get the correct form just with some gentle shadow swinging. Stay relaxed and try to get the timing right before you hit a lot of balls. I think if you keep using the video, you should be able to develop a strong serve.

 

[MrAndersDK]

Thanks i think i understand my problem now. I will work on trying to fix it. I will upload another video when i feel i have improved. Hope you will take the time to help me again at that point.

 

[MrAndersDK]

Hello again.

I have tried to work on my stroke, and I have found out that the arming may originate from starting my swing of the arm to early, not waiting till I have generated some speed from the should/body turn (not sure this is correct)

I have tried changing my rythm of the swing by shadowing the swing at home. Does this look more normal for a tennis serve, and is this a motion I should try to implement in my serve, or am I still doing it wrong? Think it feels more natural, and i get more pronation and a higher contact point, but before I really try to implement it, it would be great if you could comment on it. Thanks again.

By the way, our ceiling is a bit low, which is my I can't use my legs to drive up into the ball, I will of cause add this to the serve on the court.

Link, Serve Shadow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDbioOx9e7g&feature=youtu.be

 

[MrAndersDK]

Also I have shortened the followthrough to check if my racket had pronated.

 

[sureshs]

Aren't you hitting the ball flat? Can't tell for sure, but I cannot see the swing across the ball that is used for kick serve.

 

[MrAndersDK]

Oh sorry, you are right, should have mentioned that. I took the advice to work on the flat serve, and then the kick serve when i got that down. So with that in mind does it look like something i should do, or What do I have to change?

 

[LeeD]

OK, flat serve.
Lower racket hand at trophy.
Arch your back, so your torso faces slightly upwards, throw your left hip forwards at trophy. Look at the ATP logo of Djokovic.
DO NOT open your body nearly as early as you do.
Swing fast and fluid. You are worried about hitting the ceiling, and your swing comes in JERKY stages.
Use more continental grip, maybe even a slight twist towards backhand, but pronate lots keeping the elbow high after you strike the ball.
Now go outside and shadow swing some more.

 

[MrAndersDK]

Thanks leeD. So im on the right track here? Especially i think about the racket drop and the swing of the arm aften the shoulder turn.

Also thanks for comments what i need to add. It was raining so could not use the legs, will try to add them tomorrow, if you think the rest looks promising

 

[LeeD]

Nothing matters until you post a vid of yourself hitting the ball, and we can see the results.
Camera behind you, about 5' high.

 

[MrAndersDK]

Sure, but im not expecting to make a perfect serve the first time i try, nor am i trying to prove im a good server, cause im not. Im trying to learn the correct movement and slowly getting better.

So im not sure what you meen with 'nothing matters'

 

[LeeD]

Individual parts mean nothing until the whole is evauated.
Just swinging is a small part of the equation. The biggest part is swinging the same when you have to toss the ball up, you have to hit it square, and you have to AIM it into the other court, and also if an opponent is standing there.

 

[MrAndersDK]

Oh sure i know, but im trying to get the feel for the swing, so I can add the rest. I know it is more dufficult to do it All togheter, however there is no point in trying to do it all togheter, if the little part im trying to shadow is completely wrong. on the other side if it looks reasonable i will try to add the rest

 

[LeeD]

RobinSoderling has a motion that looks plain.... WRONG! He serves over 135.
DelPo also.
Guibius.
Nadal.
But those serves work.
Almagro looks like the GAY server on his prep, raising his shoulders, then hammers a 135 ball consistently.
Ain't how you serve, it's how the BALL goes, that counts.

 

[MrAndersDK]

Ok, but if i show you my serve and you see it sucks, then what? If you only can tell me if my serve is good or not, i can see that myself. Im trying to learn a technique. So if i show a movie of my serve, will you just tell me it sucks and is not a atp serve, or can you actually help me improve it?

 

[LeeD]

So, after HOW many posts, have I said your serve sucks?
There is NO such thing as a universal technique that gives EVERYONE a big serve. Everyone is an individual, and only RESULTS count.
If after you post a vid, and your results show a soft serve, there are cures and technque changes that need to be implemented.
If you post your vid, and it's shows a hard hit ball, you need to practice tons.

 

[LeeD]

Also, I dont know if you saw my serve vid.
I was 62 at the time, beginning of the tennis season, night, BerkeleyCA., air temps 65, DunlopHDHardCourtChamp balls.
Standing 4' from the mid hash mark, serving out wide to the intersect of the service line/sideline, my serves that went in bounced about 36" high at the long backwall. Camera was mounted on a fully extended 48" tripod.
EVERYONE said my serve was slow, it sucked, and laughed. NONE of them posted vids of their own serves.
Serving center hash up the T, you get about 9' less distance, and I'm sure my serves would have looked a lot better.

 

[MrAndersDK]

Oh you didn't say it sucks and im not trying to be aggressive sorry if you got that impression. I appreciate very much you even taking the time to answer me.

I just couldn't understand why you needed the backview. I guess you are saying i should not change if it is already fine, eventhough it may be ugly techniquewise.

However, at the moment i can't get it to bounce and hit the back fence, so I know its not bag. Just thought it Was possible to see what needs to changed eventhough you could not see the ball, under the assumption that the serve is not Great.

 

[MrAndersDK]

Bag=big, sorry

 

[LeeD]

Landing inside your baseline helps add some power. Turning more sideways, so your back faces your opponent a little adds rotational power.
Lowering your racket hand at trophy gives you a longer swing at the ball.
A more backhand side of continental, but still continental, gives added pronation effect to get faster racket head speed (RHS).
Slowing your elbow just before impact allows the racket head to speed up extra.
And swinging as fast as you can control adds a bit of speed.
Someone on here said you can bounce a IN serve, land it after IN to the backwall, and the serve needs only to go 75 mph.
I think, maybe a little faster.

 

[MrAndersDK]

Yeah so my much be slower than that, however im playing on a artificial grass carpet which is soft so maybe i need a little harder to do that.

See your point about all the little adjustments, but guess They only makes sense if some fundamental sound is their, eventhough there is no correct technique, i guess there is something that is just wrong and will never result in a god serve

 

[LeeD]

The ONLY fundamental for a fast serve is a live arm, and a fast swingspeed.
Everything else can be learned.
Without the live arm, all the training in the world only gives you an average speed. Notice the serves of MariaSharapova. She is almost 6'3" tall, really long arms and WIDE shoulders. She barely serves into the 120's, if that. She doesn't have the live arm, but she has all the training in the world.

 

[dknotty]

The ONLY fundamental for a fast serve is a live arm, and a fast swingspeed.

How do you mean a live arm?

 

[LeeD]

Can you throw farther than any of your buddies when you were growing up until right NOW?
I could. Regardless of their size. No, JohnElway didn't hang around me in SanFrancisco. He played for Stanford and could throw a football close to 100 yards. He had a live arm.

 

[Sumo]

The ONLY fundamental for a fast serve is a live arm, and a fast swingspeed.
Everything else can be learned.
Without the live arm, all the training in the world only gives you an average speed. Notice the serves of MariaSharapova. She is almost 6'3" tall, really long arms and WIDE shoulders. She barely serves into the 120's, if that. She doesn't have the live arm, but she has all the training in the world.

In what world is a 120+ serve in the women's game not a monster?

 

[LeeD]

In the world of giants.
Maria is the tallest player on tour, possibly the tallest woman ever on tour.
She has really long limbs, and wide shoulders. She should be serving into the lowest 130's, if the other shorter girls are serving into the mid 120's.
THINK about this....
Give Sharapova her favorite platform heels, she'd be taller than LeBronJames! MUCH taller.
From that height, with those angles, those long arms, how could she possibly be serving slower than some of the 5'9" women on tour?

 

[Sumo]

What do you think the fastest women's serve is?

 

[LeeD]

I have no idea, but Serena and Venus should be close. I watched BettyStove play some, and Davenport.
Richards don't count.
Sukova should in in the top 10.
Graf also.
I"m not into watching girls serve for speed.

 

[WildVolley]

Hello again.

I have tried to work on my stroke, and I have found out that the arming may originate from starting my swing of the arm to early, not waiting till I have generated some speed from the should/body turn (not sure this is correct)

I have tried changing my rythm of the swing by shadowing the swing at home. Does this look more normal for a tennis serve, and is this a motion I should try to implement in my serve, or am I still doing it wrong? Think it feels more natural, and i get more pronation and a higher contact point, but before I really try to implement it, it would be great if you could comment on it. Thanks again.

By the way, our ceiling is a bit low, which is my I can't use my legs to drive up into the ball, I will of cause add this to the serve on the court.

Link, Serve Shadow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDbioOx9e7g&feature=youtu.be

Just saw your shadow swinging video. I recognize that you can't really let loose inside without smashing your racket and ceiling, but it looks OK. It is still a little mechanical, but the movement into the drop looks better.

On the move up to hit, ideally the racket should lag more and swing to the right a little as it comes up. Also, be careful about lifting your arm too high in the shoulder without leaning over at contact. You can cause impingement problems if you do that full speed. Tilting the shoulder will help keep you healthy in the long run.

But overall, it is looking more fluid and natural.

 

[TennisCJC]

watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH8W3eLBEJw

To learn kick,

1. pull toss back to 12 o'clock or even 11 o'clock and over you head or front shoulder. Once you get the motion, you can toss it a few inches in front of you body to get more penetration
2. keep chest to side/back more and longer
3. angle into contact in up and to left - very much to left
4. snap wrist to get up and over sensation - coach in video calls it ulnar deviation and he uses "snap wrist" concept too.

I am not a coach but don't think I have damaged your game.

There also a part 2 of the video but most of the basics are covered in part 1.