Connors-Rosewall 74 USO. The best Connors ever played?

GameSampras

Banned
Last edited:

jimbo333

Hall of Fame
Great to see some prime Connors:)

Think he would have beaten Rosewall even in his prime that day, he played really well:)

And maybe he was never the same after he split up with Chrissy:):)
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Yes, remember that even getting to this final is rather impressive IMO on the part of Rosewall--considering that he won his first slam in 1953.
 
Last edited:

GPG

Semi-Pro
I can't understand how with such a soft serve he (Rosewall) could reach so many finals and won so many titles in GS
 

AndrewD

Legend
Connors looked extremely dominant here and his serve-volley was clicking nice. How would a prime Rosewall of handled Connors here?


In 1974 Rosewall made the final of Wimbledon and the US Open but WAS NOT allowed a rest day between the semi-final and the final. Plain and simple - Rosewall was stuffed. I have no doubt Connors would have won both matches but there is no way he'd have won so easily if Rosewall had been given adequate rest.

I also have no doubt that, were Rosewall in his prime, he would have beaten Connors on one of those two occasions - most likely at the US Open - if not both times. Despite what someone here said, Rosewall didn't have a soft serve - there was a fair bit of weight on it and it was always very deep-, he just didn't have a lot of velocity. However, given that we all know Connors thrived on pace, Rosewall was the player most likely to give him fits. That he didn't was ONLY due to him being 40 (close enough) and not able to recover without a rest day.
 

thalivest

Banned
Great to see some prime Connors:)

Think he would have beaten Rosewall even in his prime that day, he played really well:)

And maybe he was never the same after he split up with Chrissy:):)

I read in the Evert-Navratilova book that Jimmy sort of wanted Chris to retire young and just travel around with him, be Mrs. Connors basically. She was even thinking of doing it at one point which I find amazing, thank goodness she didnt.
 
In 1974 Rosewall made the final of Wimbledon and the US Open but WAS NOT allowed a rest day between the semi-final and the final. Plain and simple - Rosewall was stuffed. I have no doubt Connors would have won both matches but there is no way he'd have won so easily if Rosewall had been given adequate rest.

I also have no doubt that, were Rosewall in his prime, he would have beaten Connors on one of those two occasions - most likely at the US Open - if not both times. Despite what someone here said, Rosewall didn't have a soft serve - there was a fair bit of weight on it and it was always very deep-, he just didn't have a lot of velocity. However, given that we all know Connors thrived on pace, Rosewall was the player most likely to give him fits. That he didn't was ONLY due to him being 40 (close enough) and not able to recover without a rest day.

That Connors played well on those occasions is sure : at the time he was very confident and hadn't suffered the bad losses he suffered in later years. Jimbo had almost nothing to lose whereas it was Ken's last occasion to win Wimby in the first final and a Slam tourney at Forest Hills.
Besides Connors had easier draws in both events than Kenny and as AndrewD recalled Ken had no rest day in both tournaments. However I think that a rested Rosewall would have lost something like 63 63 63 to Connors then in his prime.

- I don't know if the best Rosewall (1962-1963) would have beaten the best Connors (1974, 1976) but there are glimpses of information :

Apparently the best Rosewall in his 40's was the one who played at Sydney indoor in October 1977 : he beat Pfister who was a young hard hitting player, he overcame Gerulaitis who was then close to his very best (#4 or 5 in the world) 76 64 and for once he played well enough against Connors and lost 75 64 62 to Jimbo. If an almost 43 years old player was able to take 11 games from a very top player we can guess that at 28-29 years old, Kenny would have been able to won many more games.

In September 1972 Connors wasn't at his very best but was already a very good player circa the 15th place in the world (who earlier had beaten players like Smith, Graebner, Froehling all in 1971 and Hewitt, Orantes, in 1972, ...) : Rosewall, though past his prime, easily beat Connors 63 62.

Rosewall and Connors had some comparable strengths : strong backhand, return and speed.
I think that the last one was very important.
We can guess that in the mid-70's Rosewall's speed was inferior to that of his peak days and I suppose that it made a very big difference.
Let's suppose that Ken's speed in the mid-70s was only 5% slower than his peak speed : it is sure that the difference (loss of speed) made many more than only 5% more games lost.

And on clay I think that the best Rosewall would have much bothered Connors on Jimbo's often erratic and weak forehand approach.

So I can be wrong but I think that the best Rosewall (early 60's) would have been very close to the best Connors (mid-70's).

About Ken's serve, I think that both GPG and AndrewD are right.
Rosewall had a "soft" serve especially if we compare his with Hoad's, Gonzales's, Newcombe's, Smith's or Tanner's ...
However, Laver for instance when he faced Rosewall for the first time in January 1963, was amazed to note that Rosewall's serve was much heavier and quicker than he thought before as a simple spectator.
At his best Rosewall's serve had, as AndrewD wrote, a fair bit of weight and was often very deep and well placed. In particular Ken's second serve could be very sure and good. But it is right that both serves (especially the second one) lacked velocity.
Other point about his serve. Kenny being small, his serve was low and it often surprised and bothered the returner.

So when Rosewall was "hot", his serve wasn't open to attack and in that case Kenny wasn't far from victory
but we must recognize that when Rosewall was down, his serve could be attacked and then defeat wasn't very far.
Almost the same can be said about his forehand which was less good than his backhand.
Someone (I don't remember who) said that at his peak (during his best pre-open years) Ken's forehand pace and timing were perfect.
In his amateur days his forehand pace and timing weren't that good but Ken perfected them in the pro circuit. But when he became older (in the open era) and therefore less fit he began to lose occasionally the good pace and timing on his forehand which would explain some faults on that stroke.

So in conclusion his serve (and forehand) could be weak when Rosewall wasn't at his top and players like Sedgman, Trabert, Hoad, Gonzales, Laver, Newcombe, Connors could easily handle Muscles on those occasions but whenever the little Master was inspired (Adelaide (Gonzales tour) 1957, Coubertin 1959 (European tour) Wembley 1960, Forest Hills 1963, Paris 1963, Paris 1964, Wembley 1964 (though he lost), US Pro 1965, Paris 1965, US Pro 1966 (he lost), Wembley 1967 (he lost), Roland Garros 1968, Forest Hills 1970, Dallas 1971, Dallas 1972, and other occasions I forget) everyone had to fear the Sydneysider player because both his serve and forehand could be good weapons (sometimes his forehand was as efficient as his backhand) added to his other great strengths, and then victory was very close.
 

Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
In 1974 Rosewall made the final of Wimbledon and the US Open but WAS NOT allowed a rest day between the semi-final and the final. Plain and simple - Rosewall was stuffed. I have no doubt Connors would have won both matches but there is no way he'd have won so easily if Rosewall had been given adequate rest.

Connors didn't get a day of rest between the semis & final at either event as well(& had to play a 5 set doubles match after he won his singles SF at W, so its debatable who had the tougher turnaround for the final that year)

Both Wimbledon & the USO were only 10 day events then, so having a tough schedule was nothing unusual for the players, they often had to play back to back days.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
To get to the finals, Rosewall beat Colin Dibley (R1, in 3 sets), Bob Lutz (R2, in 3 sets), Charlie Pasarell (R3, in 4 sets), Raul Ramirez (R4, in 4 sets), VJ Armitraj (QF, in 4 sets), John Newcombe (SF, in 4 sets), and then faced Connors. He was the fifth seed.

Connors beat Jeff Borowiak (R1, in 4 sets), Nils Bengston (R2, in 3 sets), John Alexander (R3, in 4 sets), Jan Kodes (R4, in 4 sets), Alex Metreveli (QF, in 4 sets), Roscoe tanner (SF, in 3 sets), and defeated Kenny in the final (in 3 lop-sided sets). Connors was the no. 1 seed.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Sorry, off-topic.

Grand Slam Set W/L% - Open Era
Top Five Yearly Leaders (30+ Sets)
Player Year Slams Set W-L Set W%
1978-1981: pretty impressive years for Borg

Bjorn Borg 1978 3 57-8 87.7%
Jimmy Connors 1978 2 36-8 81.8%
Raul Ramirez 1978 3 34-12 73.9%
Brian Gottfried 1978 3 30-12 71.4%
Guillermo Vilas 1978 4 50-21 70.4%

Bjorn Borg 1979 3 55-13 80.9%
Roscoe Tanner 1979 2 37-10 78.7%
Jimmy Connors 1979 3 45-15 75.0%
Guillermo Vilas 1979 4 44-17 72.1%
Eddie Dibbs 1979 2 25-10.3 70.8%

Bjorn Borg 1980 3 62-13 82.7%
John McEnroe 1980 3 48-15 76.2%
Roscoe Tanner 1980 2 28-9 75.7%
Jimmy Connors 1980 3 49-17 74.2%
Brian Teacher 1980 3 35-13 72.9%

Bjorn Borg 1981 3 59-12 83.1%
John McEnroe 1981 3 54-12 81.8%
Jimmy Connors 1981 3 46-14 76.7%
Johan Kriek 1981 3 37-13 74.0%
Tim Mayotte 1981 3 29-13 69.0%
 
Last edited:

jimbo333

Hall of Fame
It also begs another question, looking at how well Tanner did. If grass had been faster in late 70's/early 80's and mid-size graphite racquets had been around, would Tanners record now equal Sampras? I'm serious:)
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
It also begs another question, looking at how well Tanner did. If grass had been faster in late 70's/early 80's and mid-size graphite racquets had been around, would Tanners record now equal Sampras? I'm serious:)

Nah. Tanner was the Roddick of his time. When he got hot, Borg was waiting in the finals to neutralize his power.
 

CyBorg

Legend
I also have no doubt that, were Rosewall in his prime, he would have beaten Connors on one of those two occasions - most likely at the US Open - if not both times. Despite what someone here said, Rosewall didn't have a soft serve - there was a fair bit of weight on it and it was always very deep-, he just didn't have a lot of velocity. However, given that we all know Connors thrived on pace, Rosewall was the player most likely to give him fits. That he didn't was ONLY due to him being 40 (close enough) and not able to recover without a rest day.

Yeah, Rosewall had a very decent serve most of the time.
 

Arafel

Professional
Nah. Tanner was the Roddick of his time. When he got hot, Borg was waiting in the finals to neutralize his power.

Except in 79. Tanner gave Borg fits at Wimbledon, going 5 sets, then beat him in 4 sets in the quarters of the US
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
That Connors played well on those occasions is sure : at the time he was very confident and hadn't suffered the bad losses he suffered in later years. Jimbo had almost nothing to lose whereas it was Ken's last occasion to win Wimby in the first final and a Slam tourney at Forest Hills.
Besides Connors had easier draws in both events than Kenny and as AndrewD recalled Ken had no rest day in both tournaments. However I think that a rested Rosewall would have lost something like 63 63 63 to Connors then in his prime.

- I don't know if the best Rosewall (1962-1963) would have beaten the best Connors (1974, 1976) but there are glimpses of information :

Apparently the best Rosewall in his 40's was the one who played at Sydney indoor in October 1977 : he beat Pfister who was a young hard hitting player, he overcame Gerulaitis who was then close to his very best (#4 or 5 in the world) 76 64 and for once he played well enough against Connors and lost 75 64 62 to Jimbo. If an almost 43 years old player was able to take 11 games from a very top player we can guess that at 28-29 years old, Kenny would have been able to won many more games.

In September 1972 Connors wasn't at his very best but was already a very good player circa the 15th place in the world (who earlier had beaten players like Smith, Graebner, Froehling all in 1971 and Hewitt, Orantes, in 1972, ...) : Rosewall, though past his prime, easily beat Connors 63 62.

Rosewall and Connors had some comparable strengths : strong backhand, return and speed.
I think that the last one was very important.
We can guess that in the mid-70's Rosewall's speed was inferior to that of his peak days and I suppose that it made a very big difference.
Let's suppose that Ken's speed in the mid-70s was only 5% slower than his peak speed : it is sure that the difference (loss of speed) made many more than only 5% more games lost.

And on clay I think that the best Rosewall would have much bothered Connors on Jimbo's often erratic and weak forehand approach.

So I can be wrong but I think that the best Rosewall (early 60's) would have been very close to the best Connors (mid-70's).

About Ken's serve, I think that both GPG and AndrewD are right.
Rosewall had a "soft" serve especially if we compare his with Hoad's, Gonzales's, Newcombe's, Smith's or Tanner's ...
However, Laver for instance when he faced Rosewall for the first time in January 1963, was amazed to note that Rosewall's serve was much heavier and quicker than he thought before as a simple spectator.
At his best Rosewall's serve had, as AndrewD wrote, a fair bit of weight and was often very deep and well placed. In particular Ken's second serve could be very sure and good. But it is right that both serves (especially the second one) lacked velocity.
Other point about his serve. Kenny being small, his serve was low and it often surprised and bothered the returner.

So when Rosewall was "hot", his serve wasn't open to attack and in that case Kenny wasn't far from victory
but we must recognize that when Rosewall was down, his serve could be attacked and then defeat wasn't very far.
Almost the same can be said about his forehand which was less good than his backhand.
Someone (I don't remember who) said that at his peak (during his best pre-open years) Ken's forehand pace and timing were perfect.
In his amateur days his forehand pace and timing weren't that good but Ken perfected them in the pro circuit. But when he became older (in the open era) and therefore less fit he began to lose occasionally the good pace and timing on his forehand which would explain some faults on that stroke.

So in conclusion his serve (and forehand) could be weak when Rosewall wasn't at his top and players like Sedgman, Trabert, Hoad, Gonzales, Laver, Newcombe, Connors could easily handle Muscles on those occasions but whenever the little Master was inspired (Adelaide (Gonzales tour) 1957, Coubertin 1959 (European tour) Wembley 1960, Forest Hills 1963, Paris 1963, Paris 1964, Wembley 1964 (though he lost), US Pro 1965, Paris 1965, US Pro 1966 (he lost), Wembley 1967 (he lost), Roland Garros 1968, Forest Hills 1970, Dallas 1971, Dallas 1972, and other occasions I forget) everyone had to fear the Sydneysider player because both his serve and forehand could be good weapons (sometimes his forehand was as efficient as his backhand) added to his other great strengths, and then victory was very close.
Carlos,

I can write about the young Rosewall against a young Connors from an interesting perspective. I was able to observe an old Rosewall a number of times in person in the early 1970's and I saw Connors play numerous times from the early 1970's to the early 1991 also in person.

It's interesting because Rosewall and Connors have been compared quite often and are actually very similar in style. Both have great relatively flat backhands as their best shots and while they had good forehands, the forehands paled in comparison to their backhand. They both, in their primes hit very hard off the ground but Muscles did use a lot more touch, drop shots, angled groundies, more lobs etc while I think Connors hit bit harder. Both were very quick with great footwork but Muscles was faster.

Everyone talks about the main weakness of Connors as the short forehand and his forehand approach but in observing Connors many times over the years I think he had major problems with players like Borg who could hit with him off the ground and was far more consistent than he was. There was truly nothing Jimbo could do against a Borg. His serve could not hurt him, his volley was not good enough and his approach shots had to be great or else he would be passed. Connors, after Borg had the upper hand could never beat Borg except in the 1978 U.S. Open final and that was because Borg had a bad blister, otherwise I believe Borg probably would have crushed Connors.

Here's a video of Borg against Connors at the Pepsi in 1979.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTMx--E0OhY

Ivan Lendl used a very interesting strategy against Connors. He fed him junk, junk, a bit of looping topspin and always very little pace. I was at Forest Hills at the Tournament of Champions in 1984 (Har tru surface) when Lendl defeated Connors 6-0 6-0 and virtually every point was the same, Connors as usual would try to control play with his powerful flat groundstrokes and Lendl would loop the shots or slice it back softly under Connors would make an error. Now Connors was past his prime and he did beat Lendl at Wimbledon later that year but if you could keep the ball in play and handle Jimmy's powerful strokes, Connors had no alternate plan to turn to. He only had that one style. Lendl using his junk ball style dominated Connors and won virtually all their matches later. Orantes also used a variation of this to win the 1975 U.S. Open and the 1977 U.S Clay Courts against Connors.

How does this relate to Rosewall? Well one of the hallmarks of Muscles great game was his amazing consistency. Very few, if anyone in the history of tennis was more consistent than Ken Rosewall in 1962 and 1963. I believe the Rosewall of that time could possibly do to Connors what Borg was able to do to him but he could handle the power of Connors. I'm not sure if it would be as bad as what Borg did to Connors but I think it's very possible. Especially since I believe Rosewall was far superior to Orantes on fast surfaces. Ken also had a far superior volley to Connors so he could approach the net if it was feasible.

Now as far whether a 40 year old Rosewall would have done better against Connors if he had a day of rest. I'm not sure if it would have made much difference. An old Rosewall hit very deep consistent groundstrokes that skid and stayed low and that would bother just about anyone but a young Connors. Connors could handle those type of shots very well and drive the shots back with amazing power. Rosewall's serve would also very ineffective against the great Connors return. In this case Rosewall had no answers.

Here are the head to head results of Connors against Rosewall from the 1974 Wimbledon on.
1974 Wimbledon FR Grass (O) J.CONNORS 6-1 6-1 6-4
1974 U.S. Open FR Grass (O) J.CONNORS 6-1 6-0 6-1
1975 North Conway FR J.CONNORS 6-2 6-2
1976 Las Vegas FR J.CONNORS 6-1 6-3
1977 Sydney Indoor FR Hard (I) J.CONNORS 7-5 6-4 6-2
1977 WCT Challenge Cup Carpet (I) J.CONNORS 6-0 6-2

As you can see in only one match, the 1977 Sydney Indoor was Ken even somewhat conpetitive. While Rosewall may have won a couple of more games, I could even see him losing by 6-3 in most circumstances. The styles were too similar and Jimmy was just superior to Rosewall in just about every aspect.

To answer the question of the topic, no I don't think it was the best Connors played. I think Connors has played better in other matches. Rosewall, because his style was made to order for Connors at that time, made Jimmy look great, even greater than he actually was, which was tremendous.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
In the second to last paragraph on the previous post I meant to write I could NOT even see Rosewall losing by 6-3 in most circumstances. My error, sorry.
 

krosero

Legend
How does this relate to Rosewall? Well one of the hallmarks of Muscles great game was his amazing consistency. Very few, if anyone in the history of tennis was more consistent than Ken Rosewall in 1962 and 1963. I believe the Rosewall of that time could possibly do to Connors what Borg was able to do to him but he could handle the power of Connors. I'm not sure if it would be as bad as what Borg did to Connors but I think it's very possible. Especially since I believe Rosewall was far superior to Orantes on fast surfaces. Ken also had a far superior volley to Connors so he could approach the net if it was feasible.

Now as far whether a 40 year old Rosewall would have done better against Connors if he had a day of rest. I'm not sure if it would have made much difference. An old Rosewall hit very deep consistent groundstrokes that skid and stayed low and that would bother just about anyone but a young Connors. Connors could handle those type of shots very well and drive the shots back with amazing power. Rosewall's serve would also very ineffective against the great Connors return. In this case Rosewall had no answers.
I think you're right that Rosewall and Borg were both very consistent, a great advantage against Connors. But Borg had a powerful first serve that often handcuffed Connors or put him on the defensive. That was an element in his ability to straight-set Connors at times (by my count he won 89% of his points on first serve in their semi at the 79W, for example). Rosewall, of course, had a very good serve but I wonder if he could have dominated Connors without a dominating serve (on grass anyway).

We've got some stats for the five-setter that Rosewall lost to Laver in 1970, in Sydney (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=175342). Rosewall was broken in two consecutive games in the fifth set despite making 15 of 16 first serves. I got the distinct impression that he tired in the fifth set; and of course he was 35. But it's still difficult to imagine Borg, even tired in a match at a similar age, missing only 1 of 16 first serves and getting broken both times (on grass anyway).

Connors and Rosewall meeting in their primes, I can see them splitting their matches (on grass). On clay the serve would not be much of a factor at all, nor would Jimmy's great service return; then I would have to think Rosewall would have the edge every time.

Incidentally we have 74USO stats here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=173137.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Totally logical arguments Krosero. Excellent points. Incidentally I love the tennis videos you put on Youtube.
 

krosero

Legend
Totally logical arguments Krosero. Excellent points. Incidentally I love the tennis videos you put on Youtube.
Glad you like them, and it's always a pleasure getting someone on the boards who's seen the greats as far back as you have.
 
Thanks pc1 and krosero for your comments.
Just a remark pc1. Since a few weeks (or months) one can edit our own previous post so you could have corrected your own sentence "I could not even see him losing ..." without adding a new post.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Thanks pc1 and krosero for your comments.
Just a remark pc1. Since a few weeks (or months) one can edit our own previous post so you could have corrected your own sentence "I could not even see him losing ..." without adding a new post.

Thank you Carlo. I appreciate that.

I have another few answers for the purposes of this thread. I thought Jimmy Connors was fantastic in his losing effort against John McEnroe in the 1984 U.S. Open semi-final. He played an amazing high quality match against a John McEnroe who was at the height of his powers and virtually invincible that year. Connors lost, but he lost in five exceptionally well played sets. Jimmy probably would have beaten almost anyone else in that match. This match is one of my favorite matches and I think is very underrated and rarely mentioned when they talk about the best matches of all time. I would think that one of the reasons is that it was in a semi instead of a major final.

I'm not saying this is the best Connors has played. I think he has played better in other matches but in a losing effort in a major I would say this was his best match and superior to most matches he won.

The Roscoe Tanner match in the 1975 Wimbledon semi I understand was fabulous. One newspaper account wrote that Jimmy returned one of Roscoe's high velocity serves at thrice the speed which I doubt but I understand his return game was fabulous that day. The New York Times correspondent Fred Tupper wrote "Did anybody ever see a ball hit so hard?...Connors's performance today staggers the imagination and confuses the memory."

At this point Connors was being compared to Lew Hoad at his very best and it had a lot to do with the Tanner match listed above.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
ttmoat

That would be a good thread: top-10 matches of all time.

The TTMOAT

P.S. I rank Connors higher at no. 12, and Hoad at no. 15.
 

urban

Legend
I recall quite well, that in 1975, Connors' performance at Wim leading up to the final was rated as awesome and better than the previous year, when he won the title. He didn't lose a set and went through good players like Ramirez like through hot butter. His sf against Tanner, when he answered Tanners bombs with equal verocity on the return, lead many observers like Maskell or Gray, to compare him with Vines or Hoad on their best days.
For Rosewall, Connors was a bad matchup, because his best shot, the return, went against Rosewall's weakest, the serve. I agree that Rosewall's serve had more power than it looked, but it hadn't much bite and spin anymore. Great returners like Hoad and Laver could overpower it, when they were on song. Maybe it was a shock for Rosewall, that after a long line of the usual serve and volleyers of the time, like Newk, Ashe or Smith, whom he surely could tame, the young Connors with his super return game came up against him. Its interesting, that even in the lopsided match with Connors at Wim, Rosewall did win two service breaks. Others have won titles with these two breaks. But on the day, Rosewall couldn't hold his own serve. Its often said, that Ashe beat Connors with junk tennis, but it was also his better serve, that saw him go through in 1975.
 
Thanks pc1 and urban about your comments of the 1975 Wimby semifinal.

I also think that Connors's losses to Borg at Wimby 81 and to Mac at Flushing 84 are very great and it is possible that many consider that Jimbo was the true vice-champion at the US Open 84 (and Borgforever even think that if McEnroe had meet Connors instead of Rod Frawley at Wimby 81, Mac wouldn't have win the title). About the US Open 84 my old recollection is that it was a fantastic match won by Mac because he won something like 13 points in a row at the beginning of the 5th set. And I also remember that Connors was in great form at the time because a few weeks later he beat Lendl 60 (if I am not wrong) in the decisive set in the Tokyo final.
 
Top