Control of Tempo - rules & Nadal

[Frankc]

Many think that the control of the speed of the match is a central edge. There are many, many stories on this angle- from Mac's well-timed tirades and Tildens spinning the racket for choice before he and his opponent reached the court - it just shows who's in charge and controls the tempo of play.
Nadal- and there are others somewhat guilty - by toweling off after almost every point( I assume that is his focusing sequence), he has gained that advantage. He does this when he is serving as well as receiving. To my knowledge, there are two ATP rules that come to bear. 1) the amount of time between points allowed; and 2)that the receiver must play to the speed of the server - by discretion of the umpire. He does meet rule 1, does not meet rule 2. Yet rule 2 is not as quantifiable(# of seconds) and it is a call by the umpire.
In Montreal, Andre called him on rule 2 - "Lars (the umpire), are you going to do anything about this?" And, IMHO, last night against Blake, Nadal flagrantly controlled the tempo of Blake's serving games. Most of the time, Blake was waiting for Nadal, and , while it is hard to tell with a classy athlete like Blake, I distinctly noticed many stares by Blake in Nadal's direction.
I am "old school," I admit that. And I relish the "one-on-one" battle between these amazing athletes. The dilution of such a contest with "gamesmanship" is not what we need.
If one agrees, the next step will be which umpire will be the first to call him on this rule violation? Why not? Or is it like baseball- a pitcher argues that his balk move is natural to him and has been allowed for so long, that why are you calling me now on this move?
Andre was right," Lars, are you going to do anything about this."

 

[gully]

The commentators haven't been too helpful here, and it would be nice to hear what the chair umps think about the issue. McEnroe has been saying that the returner has 20 seconds to return to the baseline and receive serve (did he just make that up?), but clearly, Nadal intends to take the full 20 between every point in his return games, which is NOT playing "at the server's pace."

To me it seems like a player who does this consistently is flouting the rules, which is why Agassi appealed to the umpire -- who did, if I recall, nothing. Should he have? At what stage? And what should he have done?

 

[janipyt05]

Many think that the control of the speed of the match is a central edge. There are many, many stories on this angle- from Mac's well-timed tirades and Tildens spinning the racket for choice before he and his opponent reached the court - it just shows who's in charge and controls the tempo of play.
Nadal- and there are others somewhat guilty - by toweling off after almost every point( I assume that is his focusing sequence), he has gained that advantage. He does this when he is serving as well as receiving. To my knowledge, there are two ATP rules that come to bear. 1) the amount of time between points allowed; and 2)that the receiver must play to the speed of the server - by discretion of the umpire. He does meet rule 1, does not meet rule 2. Yet rule 2 is not as quantifiable(# of seconds) and it is a call by the umpire.
In Montreal, Andre called him on rule 2 - "Lars (the umpire), are you going to do anything about this?" And, IMHO, last night against Blake, Nadal flagrantly controlled the tempo of Blake's serving games. Most of the time, Blake was waiting for Nadal, and , while it is hard to tell with a classy athlete like Blake, I distinctly noticed many stares by Blake in Nadal's direction.
I am "old school," I admit that. And I relish the "one-on-one" battle between these amazing athletes. The dilution of such a contest with "gamesmanship" is not what we need.
If one agrees, the next step will be which umpire will be the first to call him on this rule violation? Why not? Or is it like baseball- a pitcher argues that his balk move is natural to him and has been allowed for so long, that why are you calling me now on this move?
Andre was right," Lars, are you going to do anything about this."

thats intresting em i didn't know that u gotta play to the servers speed i only thought that u hav 20sec between points wat i think blake was starring at was that rafa took of his grip and retied it mid point blake was ready to serve that was a bit of an issue becos blake didn't know wat he was doing until he heard the umpire give rafa a warning, by this time rafa was losing and jus didn't know what to do i think it was a nervous reaction to the goings on. as for the serves speed i dont think it should an issuse so long is u don't take long minutes. i guess rafa has been doing the towel thing for so long that if questioned im sure he'd say he can't explain it and there would b no good
answer to satisfy anyone.

i also heard that even if agassi was ready to serve well b4 the 20 seconds the oppenent does not need to b ready so long as he reaches the 20 sec mark and is ready then u play but he is not obliged to play at your speed. it wat was explained by the montreal commentator. which i think is fair bco if ur losing u need that time to think even if it is very lil time, that jus mite b the difference, many players don't get worked up about the toweling cause he doesn't take that long to wipe down, i guess its more habit than he really needs to towel down.

 

[Rataplan]

Nadal usually takes every second he gets and he usually stays within the rules (except for the odd exception perhaps like with most players). It doesn't matter if he does so consistently...it's still the rules.
He should folllow the pace of the server? Weak excuse.
Some people will find fault in every little detail Nadal does.
Nadal takes the full 20 seconds and the other player is free to take the full 20 seconds on his serve. They just have to get on with it and deal with it.
Tennis is played by two players. The server sets the pace perhaps but within the rules, the opposing player can take 20 seconds to get ready for that serve. Every player knows that rule so the other player has no right to rush the other player just because he should play to his pace.

Agassi complained about it but he had no reason to do so. That's why the umpire did nothing about it.

 

[armand]

I've been held up during matches a few times and I'm not the fastest person to start the next point. One time it got really bad so I did the only thing a civilised human being could: I served when my opponent wasn't ready. It took me a set to build the nerve and after I did it, my opponent was a little ticked but I calmly and disarmingly told him the rule that you gotta go at my pace(didn't talk about this 20 sec rule), and when he serves, he can take as much time as he wants.
That's what I would do if I were out there(and yeah, I know the ump would say "wait please" but I'd ignore it).

 

[DashaandSafin]

Nadal usually takes every second he gets and he usually stays within the rules (except for the odd exception perhaps like with most players). It doesn't matter if he does so consistently...it's still the rules.
He should folllow the pace of the server? Weak excuse.
Some people will find fault in every little detail Nadal does.
Nadal takes the full 20 seconds and the other player is free to take the full 20 seconds on his serve. They just have to get on with it and deal with it.
Tennis is played by two players. The server sets the pace perhaps but within the rules, the opposing player can take 20 seconds to get ready for that serve. Every player knows that rule so the other player has no right to rush the other player just because he should play to his pace.

Agassi complained about it but he had no reason to do so. That's why the umpire did nothing about it.

Who else takes that long? The only person that come to mind is Rudeski...not even people with "bad" sportmanship such as Hewitt take that long. Djokvic may...since hes a little "i need 20 minutes for my strained calf and i cant breathe" biatch himself...
Oh yeah btw who was the player that plucked his eyebrows? He took mightly long...i think it was borg eh?

 

[Rataplan]

Oh yeah btw who was the player that plucked his eyebrows? He took mightly long...i think it was borg eh?

Wasn't that Lendl?

 

[Frankc]

It is a rule

Again, to my knowledge, it is not a courtesy, it is a rule. Please, someone correct me on this. It is logical that the server should proceed at his/her pace-within reason. That is why it is a discretionary call by the umpire. But it is a rule.
Mac, has often referrred to this rule in previous matches, but for some reason, he is silent now. I choose not to reflect on his possible reasons. I do remember, in Montreal, some commentators talking about this topic previous to Agassi & Nadal. They supposed that it might bother Andre. Just from memory, I remember some discussion to the point that due to Andre's status, perhaps Nadal's routine might be shortened. As to will any umpire do something? Perhaps the question is already answered-Andre protests, late in the match regrettably, and Lars even with Andre's status did nothing.
Sorry, rules are rules- this one has been around a long time-even if a judgment call by an official. As to the comment that everyone is finding fault with Nadal. Sorry, that is an easy out...You will find no negative post by me on this Board concerning that great talent - Nadal. For that eact reason, this concerns me - I would like to keep these wonderous battles all about talent. I won't get started on the WTA & gamesmanship- UGHH...

 

[Rataplan]

They supposed that it might bother Andre. Just from memory, I remember some discussion to the point that due to andre's status, perhaps Nadal's routine might be shortened. As to will any umpire do sometrhing? Perhaps the question is already answered-Andre protests, late in the match regrettably, and Lars even with Andre's status did nothing.

Maybe I'm misunderstand you but should they bend the 20 seconds rule because of Andre's status?
Why? How is that fair?

Lars did nothing because Nadal did nothing wrong - status or not.
Like I said, the server gets 20 seconds to get ready for his game and the opposing player gets 20 seconds to get ready to receive that serve.
Nothing wrong with that and an experienced player like Agassi should have been able to deal with that.

 

[pound cat]

I always understood that the rule was 28 seconds, not 20 seconds. Rule book, anyone?

 

[gully]

Well, then, is the notion that play should proceed at the server's pace simply folklore, an urban legend? That's why I'd like to hear a chair ump's perspective: he (or she) could tell us what the rule is and how it is supposed to be interpreted and enforced.

BTW, I am most definitely looking to find fault with Rafa -- he's an astounding talent and competitor, and it took some pretty ungodly play from Blake to knock him out. I'd just like to know exactly what the rule is regarding control of tempo, as the the thread began.

 

[Frankc]

The Appropriate Rule is Rule #2

R- sorry, but as I sated originally, rule #1 (amount of time between points) is not the one under question, in my opinion. I stated that originally. It is rule #2 ( in my post) - which is a DISCRETIONARY call by the umpire as to the pacing of the server's game. As a discretionary call, granted seldom called, it was related in the conversation that Andre's status might prompt such a call. Again - something umpires might not choose to deal with - but in real world stuff- sometimes your status matters. This was their conversation, I just tried to relate it from memory.

 

[Rataplan]

- which is a DISCRETIONARY call by the umpire as to the pacing of the server's game.

Why should he make that discretionary call if the other player keeps within the basic rules?

And what has it to do with Andre's status? It's not really fair to me that a player should get a discretionary call because mr. Status would like you to forget the legitime 20 seconds rule and just follow the pace of mr. Status?
(no offence to Andre 'The Legend' Agassi)

 

[gully]

From the ITF Rules of Tennis:

29. CONTINUOUS PLAY (OLD 29 & 30)

As a principle, play should be continuous, from the time the match starts (when the first service of the match is put in play) until the match finishes.

Between points, a maximum of twenty (20) seconds is allowed. When the players change ends at the end of a game, a maximum of ninety (90) seconds are allowed. However, after the first game of each set and during a tie-break game, play shall be continuous and the players shall change ends without a rest.

At the end of each set there shall be a set break of a maximum of one hundred and twenty (120) seconds.

The maximum time starts from the moment that one point finishes until the first service is struck for the next point.​

http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_3920_original.PDF

The official rules do not speak to the notion that play should proceed at the server's pace, although I'm honestly a little surprised to see that. Don't other folks recall that being a part of the game? Is that an etiquette matter addressed in The Code, not an official rule?

Agassi, in particular, wants to play quickly when he is exhausting his opponent, and he is clearly frustrated when the receiver is not ready to receive. Are his appeals to the umpire just kvetches if the receiver is well within the rules to take a full 20 seconds on every point?

 

[gully]

Frank, where is the ATP rule? I found the ITF rulebook (which governs the slams, I know), but could not locate anything specific to ATP.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

If Nadal stays within the 20 seconds, he should not care about the pace of the server, IMO. To me that rule is enough.

 

[gully]

Okay, it's ITF Rule 21 that speaks to the pace of the server:

The server shall not serve until the receiver is ready. However, the receiver shall play to the reasonable pace of the server and shall be ready to receive within a reasonable time of the server being ready.​

The USTA version adds the following commentary:

USTA Comment 21.3: May the server hit the serve just as the
receiver looks up after getting into the ready position? No. The receiver
is not ready until the receiver is in the ready position and has
a second or two to make eye contact with the server.
USTA Comment 21.4: How much time may elapse from the
moment the ball goes out of play at the end of the point until the
serve is struck to start the next point? When practical this time
should not exceed 20 seconds. This limit does not apply if a player
has to chase a stray ball.
USTA Comment 21.5: Does the 20-second provision of Rule 29
apply to the second serve? No. The server must strike the second
serve without delay.
USTA Comment 21.6: Should the server be penalized for delay if the
server was not tossing the ball until about 15 seconds after the end of the
previous point even though the receiver was ready within 10 seconds?
No. The server is entitled to establish the pace as long as it is reasonable.
This means that the server has up to 20 seconds to put the ball in play.
USTA Comment 21.7: Should the receiver be penalized for delay
if the receiver was not getting into a ready position until 18 seconds
after the end of the previous point even though the server was ready
to serve within about 15 seconds? Yes. The receiver is subject to a
Time Violation. The receiver must play to the reasonable pace of the
server. (A pace of 12 to 15 seconds is considered reasonable.)
USTA Comment 21.8: May the server suddenly increase the pace
from 20 seconds to 12 seconds? No. The server may speed up the
pace only so long as the new pace is reasonable and only so long as the
change does not occur suddenly.​

http://dps.altdc3.va.twimm.net/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_13_4198.pdf

Given this rule, as Frank noted in his original post, it seems like the umpire can and should ensure that both rules are applied -- although in some cases, the rules can contradict each other. I would still love to hear the umpire's thinking on this matter.

 

[gully]

If Nadal stays within the 20 seconds, he should not care about the pace of the server, IMO. To me that rule is enough.

But that's only ONE of the TWO rules that address the pace, Marius. And in these instances, BOTH players want the rule that "advantages" their conditioning or strategy to apply to them.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

The USTA comments are very interesting.

I wonder to which extent they are enforced by ITF and other federations.

 

[Richie Rich]

one thing happened during yesterday's match that makes me believe Nadal is a poor sport and does more gamesmanship in a match than the camera's catch - he re-wrapped his overgrip after the first point AFTER a changeover to take a little longer and maybe disrupt Blake's rythm. Even Johnny Mac caught this. You have over a minute on changeovers to regrip if you need to. His "Vamos" fist pump when the other guy makes a mistake is borderline Hewitt territory too.

 

[Frankc]

Gully- interesting, quick work getting to the rule statements. Thanks - really appreciated - adds to our understanding- which is what is most important . I just know that I had to employ those rules in a sanctioned match last year. An umpire, truly stopped another player from disrupting my service games. Funny, this "player" only started doing this in the third set- at 3-3...

 

[DashaandSafin]

Ok..Why have a rule to "play at the server's pace" and another "20 second rule"? Thats ridiculous...it dosent makes sense. So person A dosen't have to play at person B's serving pace becuase person A takes 20 seconds for every single freakin point. I remeber Lendel or Borg used thier "Legend" status to take longer. I heard one of them was clocked at almost a minute. Im pretty sure it was borg.

 

[ATXtennisaddict]

Although Nadal took time to towel off almost every point, I didn't really care. But when Blake got a great point against him and when he stopped to REGRIP his racket during Blake's serve...that got me a bit annoyed. I looked at Blake and he was giving Nadal some stares.

 

[gully]

Okay, but IS there any reason to towel off after EVERY point? To me, that seems a deliberate attempt to play at your OWN pace as a returner and NOT that of the server.

The USTA comments also are interesting in suggesting that a server can NOT "speed up the pace" when he thinks it to his advantage, as Agassi seems to do after a particularly arduous point: after those, he expects his opponent to hit the line right away and looks at the ump if he has to wait.

ATX, agreed on the re-gripping -- Nadal deserved a sanction for that. But I wondered if maybe he had regripped it on the changeover, but made some kind of mistake and had to re-do?

 

[Rataplan]

They talked about that on Flemish tv during the final of RG. A tennis trainer (the coach of the Belgian Davis Cup team, I think) was co-commentating.
The sports journalist was doubting the use of towelling between each point. It's a nervous habit, said the journalist, he doesn't need to do it.

The trainer calmly said that Nadal is showing that he has a good professional attitude. You have to take care of yourself, certainly if you take into consideration that it could be a long match.

The journalist said: but in the semi-final against Federer, Nadal towelled himself off after the first point. Surely, he didn't need to do that.

The tennis coach said: "no, it's not a matter of needing to do it between each point but it's a matter of having a certain routine to handle the match. It's just very professional of him because a player needs to build in certain habits to take care of himself. You don't only have to think of the moment now but you've got to think ahead and prepare your body for a possibly tough match. Eat, drink, towel off, have a certain routine to help you to focus. Many players only start taking care of themselves when they are under pressure in a match and by then, it's too late. So, as a trainer, I would advise people to take this as an example. By towelling so carefully and by taking his time to get ready, he's showing that he's very professional at his young age.

So, it's a question of routine.
(the sports journalist was pissed off because the tennis coach corrected him on live tv :mrgreen: )

 

[Frankc]

the rules and "the code"

Gully- again, good investigating with the USTA rules. I do not have access to the ATP rules, but I am sure that rule has been part of tennis for a long tiime. In fact, I have heard Mac and ESPN annopuncers refer to it often enough. Mac especially - perhaps as he was a dominant server and controller of tempo himself.
Just to muddy the water - that "Suggestion" will be listed in every code of tennis - see USTA THe Code - p.11- "The receiver shall play to the reasonable pace of the server."
Now, codes and RULES are different - very different at an ATP level. When so much is on the line. Now wait a minute, peerhaps not. Can you imagine if every player "found" little ways to antagonize and gain advantages - see the rule about Intentional Distraction." Not too long ago, a loud grunt was considered against both the rules and the code. See Seles at Wimbledon...

Sorry - all this is on the thread - what about a Rule and "Code' violation - Nadal's "toweling sequence" - almost all top players have a focusing routine - a brief one - eg. Sharapova turning around and looking at strings...Or is this an "Alpha" routine to maintain dominance and an edge?

 

[gully]

I understand why Nadal would want to towel off on every point as a focusing sequence; on the other hand, doing so is clearly meant also to disrupt the pace of a server who wishes his own games to proceed at a quicker pace, so it seems a deliberate attempt to control what is not his to control.

You hardly ever see an ump call a time violation though, for any reason.