can someone really mis-hit every single shot????
Cry Babies Who Can't Handle Short Shots
- Thread starter redrealist
- Start date
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
Let me add that the clearest "tell" on players with lazy feet is whether they are already in motion for the short balls that don't quite make it over the net. Rather than think, "Short balls are not working" I recognize that my opponent has lazy feet and keep going back to that well, most likely with a bit more margin for error.
But this logic works both ways. If you are not already in motion for balls that hit high on the net, you have lazy feet that can be taken advantage of. I no longer have the burst speed to wait for balls to cross the net to get my big butt in gear after them. "Hoping" balls go into the net so I don't have to chase them down is more of a fantasy than a sound tennis strategy. The temptation (especially when fitness is being tested) is to rest and not expend energy until balls pass the net and "prove" it is needed. But I'm not good enough to give away all those points.
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Deleted member 293577
Guest
It's called getting old.
tennis tom
Legend
YES! It is an amazing site to behold, there are players who can shank it off the frame every time creating a short dying shot. They have been playing for fifty years, have no strokes and are 3.0's. Somehow their subconscious has found that this works for them. Unless you're as fast as Usain Bolt, it's difficult to get to these balls and do anything with them. Their shots are hit far from the sweet spot, have no visual relationship to their arm swing, (can't give it the credibility to call it a stroke), have no pace, dying balls with shanky spin --but they repeat it with almost every shot (which is a credit to something--maybe fifty years of playing with bad eyesight)--and they possess all the other attributes that make up for a challenging morning--such as bad calls and larcenous personalities.
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Doubt it
. i think most 4.0 will get to those balls easily.tennis tom
Legend
They don't get to play with 4.0's, their competition is other 3.0's and 3.5's, who don't move that swift and if they get to the ball miss it due to it's shankiness.Doubt it
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Deleted member 23235
Guest
not every shot,... but when i was 3.5/4.0, when i used to hit hawaiian grip...
i would shank a decent amount, but the ball would still go in due to the heavy topspin...
and it was challenging at the 3.5/4.0 for folks to read my shanks (ie. where it would land, and how much spin it would have).... it was probably more due to the spin, since at 3.5/4.0 you typically need more time to see the ball off the bounce...
by the time you get to 4.5+, everyone can hit on the rise, and has lots of experience playing with crappy bounces on clay, etc...
toby55555
Hall of Fame
Your opponents, if they are getting to the ball but messing the shot up are probably accelarating their racket too early. I find that accelerating late on a short ball gives me great results. Obviously if they are too lazy or too flat footed to get there anyway then they are probably not worth playing; plenty of 60+ yr old guys can handle short balls.
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Deleted member 23235
Guest
therein lies the problem... most folks, even up through the 4.0 level, don't know how to "accelerate late"... (by that i'm interpretting as short backswing, with a fast acceleeration and full follow through)... most folks only know how to take a big wind up (which is why they usually also can't do mini tennis).
toby55555
Hall of Fame
That’s correct, on a short ball I would hardly take the racket back at all then accelerate out in front of me.
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Deleted member 23235
Guest
i remember the first time a pro taught me this... it felt like a completely different stroke (coming from a full-backswing-only idea of a fh/bh)...
it was at this moment i resolved myself to get better hitting this shot, that i started practicing mini tennis religiously (ie. half backswing, full fast follow through).
eelhc
Hall of Fame
I'm a bit dense and it took me a while but I figured out that a tennis court is longer than it's wide....
Against many old opponents (including me)... a short, slice is not a bad shot to play if they're behind the baseline. If I can knife it good it usually produces a weak approach shot and leaves my opponent exposed at the net.
Against many old opponents (including me)... a short, slice is not a bad shot to play if they're behind the baseline. If I can knife it good it usually produces a weak approach shot and leaves my opponent exposed at the net.
NADAL_VS_FED
Rookie
It's good to read others' frustration with the whining and crying. Before bouncing twice, if the ball is returned to the opposing court between the white lines, that is correct tennis. It cannot be less correct. If I cannot return that ball, that is MY PROBLEM!!!! My opponent has done no wrong. He followed the rules. If he hits it weak, high, slow, no spin, bad form, shanked, etc. It doesn't matter. It is MY PROBLEM, not his.
I NEVER disparage ANYBODY's game, even the so called moonballer. The person is moonballing obviously because his adherence to the rules is winning points. Why else would he be doing it? Would he want more points later than now?
I was hitting regularly with a man I once respected, but I simply cannot hit with nor respect him anymore. He has the proclivity of making an excuse for everything and besmirches any shot that I hit. It almost seems to be a chronic psychological disorder. I hit a drop shot, and it's gutless. I can hit a winner hard down the line that goes through the fence, and it was lucky. I run down a shot of his that is nearly a winner and BARELY get it over with desperation, and it's a moonball. He just can't stop. I have literally disassociated with him. Off the court, he is a fine man. But I've always said, there are two things that bring out the real you, beer and tennis.
Really, it has nothing to do with tennis. It has to do with a virtuous or vicious person. Modesty, humility, and appreciation are virtues. Excuses, vanity, and envy are vices.
I NEVER disparage ANYBODY's game, even the so called moonballer. The person is moonballing obviously because his adherence to the rules is winning points. Why else would he be doing it? Would he want more points later than now?
I was hitting regularly with a man I once respected, but I simply cannot hit with nor respect him anymore. He has the proclivity of making an excuse for everything and besmirches any shot that I hit. It almost seems to be a chronic psychological disorder. I hit a drop shot, and it's gutless. I can hit a winner hard down the line that goes through the fence, and it was lucky. I run down a shot of his that is nearly a winner and BARELY get it over with desperation, and it's a moonball. He just can't stop. I have literally disassociated with him. Off the court, he is a fine man. But I've always said, there are two things that bring out the real you, beer and tennis.
Really, it has nothing to do with tennis. It has to do with a virtuous or vicious person. Modesty, humility, and appreciation are virtues. Excuses, vanity, and envy are vices.
dominikk1985
Legend
In a league match everything goes but in social play I can understand why some hate it. Some middle aged or older people just don't have the fitness anymore to chase droppers repeatedly but they still like to have some fun hitting tennis balls and staying active.
thehustler
Semi-Pro
Yesterday I was hitting with an opponent and he was trying some drop shots early on. He hit them way short of the net. Quite a few of them. They were bail out shots for some reason and I'm not sure why. He finally hit one. I (jokingly) told him that wasn't nice, that he set me up with all those misses just to get one in. We laughed about it. We also had another couple of exchanges. One he hit a ad side serve to me to my backhand and I hit it cross court, but short, angled and in the box for a winner. He joked that he plays real tennis, I replied, well Federer hits these shots, so why can't I? He then hit a similar junk shot later and I said "I thought you only played real tennis", he replied that he had to try something different, to which I said "Well maybe that's been your problem all along, trying to play 'real tennis' instead of just hitting the best shot". It was all in fun and we both laughed. I couldn't imagine getting 'really mad' about those shots and whining about it like it's been stated in this thread. A point is a point is a point. How it's won (or lost) is up to you and your opponent. I've been lucky to avoid the cry babies and when I do find them I don't play them for long. I can't stand excuses. I hate playing in wind as it can be so unpredictable at times, but it is what it is. Sometimes it's just blowing one way and you have to hit out just to get it over the net and other times you just bunt it and it goes 2 miles long. People gotta get over themselves and be happy they're out playing tennis. I mean it could be worse. You could be playing pickleball.
Put me in the C: Category. As I crossed over 50, my right eye developed worse astigmatism, it has gotten to a point where my depth perception is suffering as the brain seems to want to ignore the input from the right eye. The balls you are describing, balls that may/may not make it over the net and usually directed straight at me are the toughest to judge. So, guys, don't be hard on your opponents/friends especially if they are dealing with eyesight issues. Show some compassion.
Cashman
Hall of Fame
Drop-shotting the elderly in social matches is a little frowned upon, yes. At that age, everyone's starting to care more about looking after their joints and bodies than winning matches.
I'd play against younger guys who don't mind sprints.
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
Yep, and there's rarely an audience, so we're talking real points, not style points.
Yep. Well stated.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I've been amblyopic since childhood and have had poor depth perception my whole life. I generally require things like perspective and parallax to ascertain depth. The worst balls are those traveling straight at me or launched into a clear blue sky. I struggle mightily to capture the speed of the ball in those instances.
I was playing a club match last week where my opponent hit a flat serve at my body. I drop stepped to create spacing for my FH, extended my arm and went, "holy cow, that ball isn't even going to make it to me at the baseline". I was too late to get to it before the second bounce. Everyone laughed at the 35 mph "Ace". But I just couldn't get a good read on the speed when it was moving straight towards me.
tennis tom
Legend
AtTheNet
New User
I take your point about drop-shotting the elderly, but I have noted that those same distinguished old gents have absolutely no qualms about hitting all kinds of sliced junk balls at me to win a point if they can.
tennis tom
Legend
Yup, after Tom Brown had a surgery, Whit Reed had no qualms about dropping him mercilessly, taking him out of his misery--it's all part of the game. If players have "issues" with being dropped, maybe it's time for them to move onto pickle-ball, golf or the pool.
Badmrfrosty
Rookie
So what is considered elderly?
I think all low-level rec players hate anything that isn't a hard shot that makes them look foolish. They are embarrassed to lose to anything other than topspin and don't consider dropshots, side spin or back spin "real" tennis.
Sidespin is the most deadly because they don't see it when it comes off your racquet just after it hits the ground and kicks into their body. Point over back up the salt truck.
I think all low-level rec players hate anything that isn't a hard shot that makes them look foolish. They are embarrassed to lose to anything other than topspin and don't consider dropshots, side spin or back spin "real" tennis.
Sidespin is the most deadly because they don't see it when it comes off your racquet just after it hits the ground and kicks into their body. Point over back up the salt truck.
thehustler
Semi-Pro
Oh I love sidespin, especially when I get it on a good slice and it either bounces away further from my opponent or right into them and they don't see it early enough to move their feet into proper position.
thehustler
Semi-Pro
Nobody likes it when someone does something that they either can't do or won't do because it's 'beneath them', but then they'll do stuff like you mentioned. A point is a point is a point. If I hit a volley that just goes over the net and dies how is it any different than an ederly or distinguished old gent hitting an overhead smash that bounces out of my reach? Heck when I get old I'd try and drop shot if I could, especially against other older guys.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
If you watch a lot of old guys, they stand 4 feet into the court in NML with OS rackets and hit low volleys and half volleys off all your groundstrokes. Usually with significant dexterity . They do that to avoid getting manhandled by drop shots.
The secret is to use the drop shot to bring them and then lob. You won't win with the dropper alone. Need that drop-lob combo
The secret is to use the drop shot to bring them and then lob. You won't win with the dropper alone. Need that drop-lob combo
I've got the same condition, but I am fortunate that treatment as a child helped me a lot. My biggest challenge is when I'm playing on a court without a "solid" backdrop. I cringe any time I walk onto an outdoor court without a windscreen (or something relatively consistent behind the courts). Without one it takes so long for me to pick up the ball on return of serve.Thankfully that's the only challenge I really notice.
I did have a tennis pro who talked with me briefly about how even people with normal vision are impacted by their dominant eye. It was quite logical, but hadn't occurred to me.
People who complain about any type of shot amuse me. They aren't going to do me the favor of feeding everything to my forehand, so they shouldn't expect me to protect their weaknesses. If I'm playing a competitive match then we're playing to win.
Of course if it's a friendly game, and somebody has no mobility I'm not going to spend the whole time hitting drop shots to them because that won't be fun for anyone.
thehustler
Semi-Pro
I played someone last week and he beat me for the first time. It was a little warmer than I'd have liked, but not horrible. I warmed up well, but didn't play well. I was too inconsistent and I only broke him once, which is very unusual as usually it's at least a couple times a set I can break him. During the 2nd set I got up 3-0, but the heat was getting to me and I wore out a little bit. He started hitting drop shots. I didn't chase them as I was trying to save my energy. He still won the 2nd set 6-4. I thought it was great on his part. He realized what was going on and adjusted. Most opponents I've played don't do that. They just mindlessly bash the ball and that usually gives me a chance back into a match if I'm not playing well. I wasn't mad at him, nor should I have ever been. I'm just amazed it finally happened where an opponent I've played many times finally figured out a way to beat me. It made me proud and ready to kick his rear the next time we play.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
I've posted a bunch over the years about how I approach game tacatics. One of the first things I do is test movement overall. Second is to hit some short balls and see how they handle them. I have a few friends I play with that I know I can hit 30% short balls and win almost all of those points. Legit tactic for sure.
RR
sounds like you play a bunch of "whiners" who cant stand to lose to a better player.
just because they hit harder, doesnt mean they are better.
maybe you need to find other opponents, or you will still hear the losing "whiners"
in tennis, i thought you play to win, you can hit your strongest shots, but if that isnt working,
you figure out what the opponent doesnt like, and feed him
nothing but that. often, that is the winning strategy.
did you see the 2019 french open finals, obviously Thiem hits harder than Rafa, but in those last 2 sets, Rafa
just "schooled" Thiem 6-1, 6-1.
Thiem didnt play that poorly, its just that Rafa is a better player on clay.
did you hear Thiem complain that Rafa hit shots he didnt like?
z
sounds like you play a bunch of "whiners" who cant stand to lose to a better player.
just because they hit harder, doesnt mean they are better.
maybe you need to find other opponents, or you will still hear the losing "whiners"
in tennis, i thought you play to win, you can hit your strongest shots, but if that isnt working,
you figure out what the opponent doesnt like, and feed him
nothing but that. often, that is the winning strategy.
did you see the 2019 french open finals, obviously Thiem hits harder than Rafa, but in those last 2 sets, Rafa
just "schooled" Thiem 6-1, 6-1.
Thiem didnt play that poorly, its just that Rafa is a better player on clay.
did you hear Thiem complain that Rafa hit shots he didnt like?
z
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Sadly they didn't get mine figured out until age 6 and a lot of depth perception loss had occurred by then. I'm still better than a one-eyed player but not as good as someone with stereoscopic vision.
But I agree that backdrops affect my too. It's why I prefer to hit overheads into a cloudy sky than a clear blue sky.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
If the backdrop was constantly changing, would that help your depth perception?
It's a little silly to compare 50 year old rec players to Rafa and Thiem. Obviously, if you're a pro, you don't get to whine about another pro exploiting weaknesses. Pro matches, especially slam finals, aren't social matches.
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
Been there. Not sure the medical description, but I am susceptible to this junk at night under the lights.
I am always thinking about shots the opponent has difficulty picking up. If I think a US is due to a vision issue, I'm going back to that well.
Drop and lob is deadly against some opponents. But I'm more often the old guy standing in NML cause so many opponents at my level can't hit deep shots well.
You're not alone. Lots of my opponents cannot punish my faulty lobs against a clear blue sky.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
And yet I remember a video of Ostapenko complaining about Radwanska. I'm sure a lot of women complained about Radwanska. And now that she's retired, they get to complain about Hsieh.
Exactly. That's part of what I love about tennis. You don't always have to be in the best physical condition or have the best technique to win. A lot of the game is about exploiting your opponent's weaknesses and minimizing the exposure to your own.
This is why a high school player who's super fit can look amazing warming up then lose to a regular 4.0 player. Many of them lack the match experience to make adjustments during the game (in my experience). If you both stood there bashing balls back and forth from the baseline they'd grind you to dust, but work in a drop shot and everything changes.
Hey, it's only no man's land if they can punish you for being there! The difference in getting to play a shot 2-3 feet inside the baseline and from behind it is significant.
thehustler
Semi-Pro
That's why tennis is so awesome. Anybody can play anybody and win. It reminds me of a quote from Baseketball (Hilarious movie) "It's a game where guys with bad backs can compete on the same field as guys goosed up on steroids". It's so satisfying when you play someone bigger, taller, stronger and you whip them soundly. I always loved playing big servers who just hit stupidly to one spot or another and then absorb their power and return it where they don't expect. So they try it again and again, but always the same result. How often do we see the world's greatest practice/warmup player only to see them crumble once the match starts? It's so interesting how much what goes on between the ears is basically the most important thing in tennis.
