Short Shots Frustrate Opponents

[redrealist]

I'm a 4.0 USTA player probably on the cusp of 4.5. I've been playing 6 years. I have focused the last year on "hitting out," as opposed to pushing, and I've had mixed results. I realize my tennis game will plateau if I don't develop pace in my game, and I want to continue to improve, even though I'm 50 years old (who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks?) So, here's the thing: A lot of players stopped playing me when I was pushing and moonballing and drop shotting them. I move very well, and can block practically anything I can get to, and most the time give it good depth, too. Simply put, I was a frustrating opponent to play, as I would rarely, if ever, give an opponent pace to work with. My unforced errors were limited, too.
Well ... That alienated a lot of hitting partners/opponents. I played 1 season of Ultimate Tennis and went 7-1. Anyway, the same people I would beat in straight sets, I now struggle to defeat with the changed gameplan of hitting out. I'm trusting the process and working on my game, focusing on pace, as opposed to winning the match. What I've found is that players I could beat easily with a pushing strategy I will often lose to trying to hammer with them on the baseline. But here is the happy medium I have found ...
I can play on the baseline and hit out and keep balls deep and with pace a decent percentage of my shots. But some of these guys I play practice from the baseline nonstop. One in particular will hit 200 balls in a row, most beyond the "T." So I know it's unlikely I will ever win a baseline battle with this guy. What I've started to do, though, is hit a low liner with a little topspin that barely clears the net, and lands a few feet in front of the T. I am surprised this shot works so well against so many baseliners, but for whatever reason, they never read it quickly enough to come in and do anything with it. Sometimes they don't even get to it. Other times they do, but are left in no man's land, and I easily pass them. Simply put, I've found that instead of trying to beat baseliners side to side with power and/or consistency, I'm better off driving them back, pulling them in, and passing or lobbing them. I don't consider this a dropshot, as I associate those with underspin. But nonetheless, it is a low ball that doesn't pop up too much or give an opponent much time to read, react and do anything with. In fact, I've used this strategy to beat a few players that are probably 4.5 or 5.0 USTA players. So my questions are these: 1. Is that technically a drop shot? 2. Is it a legitimate shot at the club level? 3. How come 4.5 and up players struggle so much with this shot? It's almost as if they have no depth perception, and don't read it's short off the racquet.
I'll leave you with this ... One guy I recently beat by employing this shot regularly in the match, called it a terrible shot and that practically every shot you make in tennis should hit the court, and the next thing it hits should be the back fence. I find that unlikely at the club level, but perhaps I'm wrong. So, long story longer ... What do you guys think of the strategy to beat opponents by keeping them a foot beyond the baseline then hitting a low, short topspin liner to pull them in, then passing them? Does this stop working at "x" level? Am I going to alienate opponents by playing this style?
It really does give me the best chance to win points, as I now consider myself an all-court player. The low, short liner is a weapon for me, not a liability. NOTE: I use this shot successfully against athletic opponents, too, not old men who can't move! I think what it boils down to is that everyone practices hitting from the baseline. Few people practice coming in hard and hitting low, short shots. As a result, it's a weakness for many, and I have no problem exploiting it ... unless there's no one left to play!

 

[taylor15]

Someone thinking every shot should bounce once as hit the fence would struggle hard with angles and strategy. I think you’re doing the right thing personally

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

An opponent who says that x is a bad shot is really saying "I can't defend against x; please stop hitting it."

Will it stop working at some point? Of course it will. So make sure you develop more than just x. But I see no reason you shouldn't milk it for all its worth.

 

[redrealist]

Thanks for reading. I know even the pros hit angled short shots for winners, but what I'm doing isn't always angled. Like I said, it really surprises me how so many people struggle to read the ball off the racquet. I know playing center field in baseball, the hardest balls to gauge for distance are the ones right at you, so maybe that's the issue. Either way, I'd be surprised if even a 6.0 player could do much with those shots, as they have decent pace and are so low and short with little bounce. I don't think I've ever had an opponent at any skill level do much with that shot.
It just dawned on me, I wonder if pros don't make it too often because it's low percentage as it barely clears the net???

 

[redrealist]

An opponent who says that x is a bad shot is really saying "I can't defend against x; please stop hitting it."

Will it stop working at some point? Of course it will. So make sure you develop more than just x. But I see no reason you shouldn't milk it for all its worth.

The most recent guy I beat with this strategy plays at 6.0- in Ultimate Tennis. He's quick to point out "that shot will never work at any level 5.0 or above." To which I respond, "It just did all match against you." To which he replies, "I want to work on my top spin, and that shot requires a flat shot to put it away, which I could do all day." To which I laugh, since he doesn't even get to most shots to even put a decent swing on them.
But you are right ... I'm probably the only tennis player ever who didn't cry about an opponent's tactics after losing. If they hit shots I struggle with, I need to improve that aspect of my game. Period. No boo-hooing here.

 

[PD1978]

I use a similar tactic as well sometimes. It’s great to change it up and bring the player up, then quickly hit the ball deep. Throws them off.

 

[redrealist]

I use a similar tactic as well sometimes. It’s great to change it up and bring the player up, then quickly hit the ball deep. Throws them off.

I would guess that only half of the time the opponent even comes up in time to get it before it bounces twice. The other half he pops it up and out of play or short and I put it away.

 

[brt]

Your strategy reminded me of this guy.
If it works, then good strategy. It's your job to find the weakness of the opponent and exploit it in a match.

 

[chic]

It's definitely a good shot if it's working. A good player should be able to step in on it though and really angle you off the court (if I'm understanding the situation correctly). But that isn't necessarily easy to do especially since the higher level you play the less you have to deal with it except when you force it (and are therefore ready to move in on it).

If you're an reformed pusher I think the strat should definitely be to keep and play around with those slices and lobs. Test them out in rallies, they can be a tool without being the whole kit. Give a low short ball to draw them in then hit them with the newly acquired deep topspin, hit a lob to get a defensive or neutral return and if they return it short hit a winner.

Those shots are fun and useful to hit/ hit against as long as it's not the only part of ones game.

 

[Max G.]

Seems like it should work. Moving people forward and back is reasonable.

Probably similar to hack/push kind of stuff in that it works because people don't practice against it. It exposes the fact that rec players' games are a lot more limited than they think. Anytime you can give someone a shot they never see, it's gonna pay dividends.

In the pros, it doesn't work because they have good footwork, speed, and, most importantly, spend enough time practicing once-or-twice-a-match type shots that they can deal with them as needed. In rec play, stuff like that can work. You've given them a short ball - it's a weird short ball to be sure, but short balls always open up angles or approach shots no matter how weird they are, as long as the guy on the other side of the net can get to it in time. Pros do, rec hacks don't.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

The most recent guy I beat with this strategy plays at 6.0- in Ultimate Tennis.

In a previous post where you wrote "Either way, I'd be surprised if even a 6.0 player could do much with those shots".

Are these two 6.0 citings the same rating system? I don't know what system Ultimate Tennis uses but it's obviously the opposite of NTRP since lower is better.

But in your first post, you hadn't mentioned Ultimate Tennis yet and so I thought you were talking NTRP: 6.0 is a professional. They wouldn't give any shot you as a 4.0 hit much notice.

 

[redrealist]

It's definitely a good shot if it's working. A good player should be able to step in on it though and really angle you off the court (if I'm understanding the situation correctly). But that isn't necessarily easy to do especially since the higher level you play the less you have to deal with it except when you force it (and are therefore ready to move in on it).

If you're an reformed pusher I think the strat should definitely be to keep and play around with those slices and lobs. Test them out in rallies, they can be a tool without being the whole kit. Give a low short ball to draw them in then hit them with the newly acquired deep topspin, hit a lob to get a defensive or neutral return and if they return it short hit a winner.

Those shots are fun and useful to hit/ hit against as long as it's not the only part of ones game.

You're understanding it correctly. And you're right, it's not an easy shot, simply because it's not the type of shot many people practice or see in games. What makes it different than most drop sots is that it doesn't have underspin. and it's hit with more pace. When it hits the court it tends to skip more than pop-up, making it exceptionally tough to reach. But I hear what you're saying ... A short ball is usually a quick recipe for losing tennis. I just really like the strategy of moving an opponent up to the net where they can't do much to a shot then passing/lobbing them.

 

[redrealist]

Your strategy reminded me of this guy.
If it works, then good strategy. It's your job to find the weakness of the opponent and exploit it in a match.

Thanks for posting that video. I can't say it's exactly like that, as that guy noticeably let up on his shot and did angle it. I can swing 80 percent and have it barely clear the net and land about 3 feet in front of the "t" with the second bounce maybe 5 feet inside the baseline. I know ... Sounds like a good opponent would step up and angle it and put away the point. I think some people just have lousy depth perception and don't step up on it til it's too late.

 

[redrealist]

Seems like it should work. Moving people forward and back is reasonable.

Probably similar to hack/push kind of stuff in that it works because people don't practice against it. It exposes the fact that rec players' games are a lot more limited than they think. Anytime you can give someone a shot they never see, it's gonna pay dividends.

In the pros, it doesn't work because they have good footwork, speed, and, most importantly, spend enough time practicing once-or-twice-a-match type shots that they can deal with them as needed. In rec play, stuff like that can work. You've given them a short ball - it's a weird short ball to be sure, but short balls always open up angles or approach shots no matter how weird they are, as long as the guy on the other side of the net can get to it in time. Pros do, rec hacks don't.

Good post. I agree 100 percent. Really, I shouldn't care if an opponent thinks it's a garbage shot, but I don't like losing a good, regular hitting partner over it. I guess I just need to explain to him if we're keeping score, I'm playing to win points, otherwise, let's just rally and I'll bang to him on the baseline all day long.

 

[redrealist]

In a previous post where you wrote "Either way, I'd be surprised if even a 6.0 player could do much with those shots".

Are these two 6.0 citings the same rating system? I don't know what system Ultimate Tennis uses but it's obviously the opposite of NTRP since lower is better.

But in your first post, you hadn't mentioned Ultimate Tennis yet and so I thought you were talking NTRP: 6.0 is a professional. They wouldn't give any shot you as a 4.0 hit much notice.

6.0- in Ultimate Tennis probably equates to a strong 4.5 in USTA scale. Maybe a weak 5.0. Anyway, as another poster pointed out, a stronger player with good, quick footwork would recognize it as a short ball, step up and angle me off the court on his return.
In all honesty, I need to stop caring about whining opponents and do whatever it takes to exploit their weaknesses. For many club level players, the short balls and shots with little pace kick their butt.

 

[redrealist]

Good post. I agree 100 percent. Really, I shouldn't care if an opponent thinks it's a garbage shot, but I don't like losing a good, regular hitting partner over it. I guess I just need to explain to him if we're keeping score, I'm playing to win points, otherwise, let's just rally and I'll bang to him on the baseline all day long.

I am curious to see at what USTA level a player can do something with that shot on a regular basis. Another strategy that I personally struggle with is the players who hit low, slice shots that barely skim over the net. I find those extremely difficult to return with topspin and pace, and wind up just getting into an all slice/pickleball type match, which lasts about 4 hours!

 

[Mark Bosko]

If it is a match, find your opponents weakness and make them beat you with it. If they can't handle short balls, so be it. If your opponent can hit good approach shots and anticipates well, they will make you pay.

 

[Chalkdust]

Nothing wrong with playing whatever style or shot that gives your opponent trouble. I'm actually surprised that you've had opponents complain about you doing it in competitive matches. If they can't handle the shot it's on them not on you.

Having said that I'm also surprised that better players are not able to handle it, assuming I understand the scenario correctly. If it's in the middle of the court with the second bounce 5 feet from the baseline then it isn't really short enough to make getting to it difficult. I would just hit an approach shot into the corner on your weaker side and come up behind it.

But again, if it's working for you, then keep doing it!

 

[ChaelAZ]

So my questions are these:
1. Is that technically a drop shot?
2. Is it a legitimate shot at the club level?
3. How come 4.5 and up players struggle so much with this shot?

It's a short ball to me, the way you describe it.
Every shot is a legitimate shot really.
Not sure on that. Most 4.5 and up guys I know handle short balls better than you describe.

Everyone has their own ideas of what makes tennis interesting and good for them. I know a lot of guys that have the Tin Cup movie ending mentallity, where they will shank and duff a shot a dozen times in a match just get that one time it looks pro level amazing...all at the expense of the match. I know guys that turn matches into 10 and under patty cake because it annoys players to the point the opponents give up, all because winning is the most important thing. Niether is right or wrong in the sense that is what they want out of tennis, or that either is playing wrong or not legitimate.

 

[r2473]

I'm a 4.0 USTA player probably on the cusp of 4.5. I've been playing 6 years. I have focused the last year on "hitting out," as opposed to pushing, and I've had mixed results. I realize my tennis game will plateau if I don't develop pace in my game, and I want to continue to improve, even though I'm 50 years old (who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks?) So, here's the thing: A lot of players stopped playing me when I was pushing and moonballing and drop shotting them. I move very well, and can block practically anything I can get to, and most the time give it good depth, too. Simply put, I was a frustrating opponent to play, as I would rarely, if ever, give an opponent pace to work with. My unforced errors were limited, too.
Well ... That alienated a lot of hitting partners/opponents. I played 1 season of Ultimate Tennis and went 7-1. Anyway, the same people I would beat in straight sets, I now struggle to defeat with the changed gameplan of hitting out. I'm trusting the process and working on my game, focusing on pace, as opposed to winning the match. What I've found is that players I could beat easily with a pushing strategy I will often lose to trying to hammer with them on the baseline. But here is the happy medium I have found ...
I can play on the baseline and hit out and keep balls deep and with pace a decent percentage of my shots. But some of these guys I play practice from the baseline nonstop. One in particular will hit 200 balls in a row, most beyond the "T." So I know it's unlikely I will ever win a baseline battle with this guy. What I've started to do, though, is hit a low liner with a little topspin that barely clears the net, and lands a few feet in front of the T. I am surprised this shot works so well against so many baseliners, but for whatever reason, they never read it quickly enough to come in and do anything with it. Sometimes they don't even get to it. Other times they do, but are left in no man's land, and I easily pass them. Simply put, I've found that instead of trying to beat baseliners side to side with power and/or consistency, I'm better off driving them back, pulling them in, and passing or lobbing them. I don't consider this a dropshot, as I associate those with underspin. But nonetheless, it is a low ball that doesn't pop up too much or give an opponent much time to read, react and do anything with. In fact, I've used this strategy to beat a few players that are probably 4.5 or 5.0 USTA players. So my questions are these: 1. Is that technically a drop shot? 2. Is it a legitimate shot at the club level? 3. How come 4.5 and up players struggle so much with this shot? It's almost as if they have no depth perception, and don't read it's short off the racquet.
I'll leave you with this ... One guy I recently beat by employing this shot regularly in the match, called it a terrible shot and that practically every shot you make in tennis should hit the court, and the next thing it hits should be the back fence. I find that unlikely at the club level, but perhaps I'm wrong. So, long story longer ... What do you guys think of the strategy to beat opponents by keeping them a foot beyond the baseline then hitting a low, short topspin liner to pull them in, then passing them? Does this stop working at "x" level? Am I going to alienate opponents by playing this style?
It really does give me the best chance to win points, as I now consider myself an all-court player. The low, short liner is a weapon for me, not a liability. NOTE: I use this shot successfully against athletic opponents, too, not old men who can't move! I think what it boils down to is that everyone practices hitting from the baseline. Few people practice coming in hard and hitting low, short shots. As a result, it's a weakness for many, and I have no problem exploiting it ... unless there's no one left to play!

Stick with the strategy that gave you the 7-1 record. Add pace to your game judiciously. You don’t need to go “all or nothing”.

I think most guys will figure out that the best response to your new shot is to just push it deep and restart the point. Sure, some guys will try to attack it and get themselves out of position, but guys worth playing will handle this with pushing deep or maybe approaching the net if they start to get a read on it .

 

[redrealist]

Nothing wrong with playing whatever style or shot that gives your opponent trouble. I'm actually surprised that you've had opponents complain about you doing it in competitive matches. If they can't handle the shot it's on them not on you.

Having said that I'm also surprised that better players are not able to handle it, assuming I understand the scenario correctly. If it's in the middle of the court with the second bounce 5 feet from the baseline then it isn't really short enough to make getting to it difficult. I would just hit an approach shot into the corner on your weaker side and come up behind it.

But again, if it's working for you, then keep doing it!

Keep in mind if the second bounce is 5' inside the baseline, then it's probably only shin-high about 10 feet inside the baseline. This ball barely clears the net, and it never returns to 3' off the ground even after the first bounce. It's really, really low without much topspin to help kick it deep/high. Almost a flat shot, in fact.

 

[Fairhit]

My theory with this kind of shot and why is difficult to read is, the set up and execution are identical to a deep fh so they will see a ball incoming and will no read the shot until is over the net, that gives little time to react and do something with it, it works on a level where the opponent doesn't split step and doesn't have a quick reaction time.

 

[redrealist]

Stick with the strategy that gave you the 7-1 record. Add pace to your game judiciously. You don’t need to go “all or nothing”.

Yeah ... I think I've officially learned that pushing creates more problems for opponents than hitting out, if for no other reason than at the club level, unforced errors are going to decide more points than winners. My strategy to not beat myself has always worked well, but it just upset people to the point where they wouldn't hit with me anymore if we were keeping score. Plus, I really do aspire to be the type of player who can blast away and win games on the baseline. I'm just not there yet, and don't know if I ever will be.
This brings me to another thought ... I know Tiger Woods will only swing 70 percent on his drive, because a 300-yard drive he can be more consistent with is better than 350 that may get sprayed. In tennis, though, it seems pros are swinging 100 percent with every topspin groundstroke. Do you believe that to be true? Is it because in tennis, a heavy topsin and plenty of net clearance will almost always result in a "safe" shot on the court?
I just have so much more control pushing than I do swinging out, but I'm sure it's just because I need more practice with the latter.

 

[chic]

Good post. I agree 100 percent. Really, I shouldn't care if an opponent thinks it's a garbage shot, but I don't like losing a good, regular hitting partner over it. I guess I just need to explain to him if we're keeping score, I'm playing to win points, otherwise, let's just rally and I'll bang to him on the baseline all day long.

This exactly. If a good player is telling you it's a bad shot, that good to note for the future. That way if you do run into someone better you'll catch on to them putting it away the first or second time they do. But till it stops working keep hitting it so just tell him noted and keep playing it

 

[r2473]

Yeah ... I think I've officially learned that pushing creates more problems for opponents than hitting out, if for no other reason than at the club level, unforced errors are going to decide more points than winners. My strategy to not beat myself has always worked well, but it just upset people to the point where they wouldn't hit with me anymore if we were keeping score. Plus, I really do aspire to be the type of player who can blast away and win games on the baseline. I'm just not there yet, and don't know if I ever will be.
This brings me to another thought ... I know Tiger Woods will only swing 70 percent on his drive, because a 300-yard drive he can be more consistent with is better than 350 that may get sprayed. In tennis, though, it seems pros are swinging 100 percent with every topspin groundstroke. Do you believe that to be true? Is it because in tennis, a heavy topsin and plenty of net clearance will almost always result in a "safe" shot on the court?
I just have so much more control pushing than I do swinging out, but I'm sure it's just because I need more practice with the latter.

If you swing out and add pace, you have to have some purpose in mind. Otherwise, you’re just going to hit more errors and take time away from yourself.

As you well know, it’s easy to beat a guy that hits hard but stays at the baseline.

No reason to compare the rec game to the pro game.

 

[chic]

Yeah ... I think I've officially learned that pushing creates more problems for opponents than hitting out, if for no other reason than at the club level, unforced errors are going to decide more points than winners. My strategy to not beat myself has always worked well, but it just upset people to the point where they wouldn't hit with me anymore if we were keeping score. Plus, I really do aspire to be the type of player who can blast away and win games on the baseline. I'm just not there yet, and don't know if I ever will be.
This brings me to another thought ... I know Tiger Woods will only swing 70 percent on his drive, because a 300-yard drive he can be more consistent with is better than 350 that may get sprayed. In tennis, though, it seems pros are swinging 100 percent with every topspin groundstroke. Do you believe that to be true? Is it because in tennis, a heavy topsin and plenty of net clearance will almost always result in a "safe" shot on the court?
I just have so much more control pushing than I do swinging out, but I'm sure it's just because I need more practice with the latter.

Imo pushing let's you get away with much poorer footwork since you just need to deflect back. Swinging full speed when not set up is a recipe for lack of control.

I think many pros are probably swinging around 80-90% speed on most rally balls in a set, but putting a lot of that swingrate into topspin (hence why you see some winners go fast faster, not much faster swing but much flatter).

 

[redrealist]

My theory with this kind of shot and why is difficult to read is, the set up and execution are identical to a deep fh so they will see a ball incoming and will no read the shot until is over the net, that gives little time to react and do something with it, it works on a level where the opponent doesn't split step and doesn't have a quick reaction time.

I hear what you're saying, but in order for me to hit a deep shot (say within 8 feet of the baseline), I need to clear the net about 10 feet higher than what I do this low, short shot that I'm referring to. So, in other words, the trajectory of the ball off the racquet should tell them it's barely going to clear the net, so they should come in hard. Still, none of my 5 regular hitting partners read it, step up and angle it away. I would think 2 of the guys I play are 4.5 USTA players, but they are in their late 50s/early 60s, but move well.
There is another factor here, and that's some people have good lateral movement, but weak forward movement. Maybe that's the core problem they are having with the shot, because in the end, either they're reading it wrong and that delays their footwork and/or their footwork is too slow.

 

[chic]

Also good topspin gives you good margin of error and the way it pops up means it's in the opponents strike zone for less time. So there's less incentive to hit right on your spot, they can aim for a slightly larger area and know the ball will be aggressive enough the opponent can't step in on it.

 

[redrealist]

If you swing out and add pace, you have to have some purpose in mind. Otherwise, you’re just going to hit more errors and take time away from yourself.

As you well know, it’s easy to beat a guy that hits hard but stays at the baseline.

No reason to compare the rec game to the pro game.

I hear you. But in the pros, when they are rallying on the baseline, and hitting topspin shots, are they swinging with 100 percent racquet speed every time on these shots? And if you're not "hitting out," are you technically pushing? I guess it shouldn't matter, but I'm curious.

 

[r2473]

I hear you. But in the pros, when they are rallying on the baseline, and hitting topspin shots, are they swinging with 100 percent racquet speed every time on these shots? And if you're not "hitting out," are you technically pushing? I guess it shouldn't matter, but I'm curious.

It's a rabbit hole you are best not going down. At the rec level, you'd be a fool to hit anywhere near 100% on your shots, unless you have a reason to do it. At what % do you hit your rally ball now?

It sounds to me like you have the 4.0 game figured out. Your game will work against certain 4.5 players as well. What you need to do is find 4.5 players that understand how to deal with your current game. Playing these guys is how you will get better. Easier said than done I'm sure. It's hard to get matches against these guys with the type of game you play.

If you want to get out of the "pushing" game exclusively, then you need to find patterns of play you can employ that help you end point quicker. One you might be good at is to hit a "moonball" approach to your opponents weaker wing and come into net. That, combined with your "low, short" approach you describe in your OP might be your ticket to 4.5 tennis.

 

[redrealist]

It's a rabbit hole you are best not going down. At the rec level, you'd be a fool to hit anywhere near 100% on your shots, unless you have a reason to do it. At what % do you hit your rally ball now?

It sounds to me like you have the 4.0 game figured out. Your game will work against certain 4.5 players as well. What you need to do is find 4.5 players that understand how to deal with your current game. Playing these guys is how you will get better. Easier said than done I'm sure. It's hard to get matches against these guys with the type of game you play.

If you want to get out of the "pushing" game exclusively, then you need to find patterns of play you can employ that help you end point quicker. One you might be good at is to hit a "moonball" approach to your opponents weaker wing and come into net. That, combined with your "low, short" approach you describe in your OP might be your ticket to 4.5 tennis.

When I push a forehand rally shot, I probably swing 66% of my capacity, with no wrist action. I know where it's going, though, and can be mega-consistent. When I swing out at 100 percent and snap my wrist, I get considerably more pace, but of course, more UEs.
But as you noted, few people want to hit with opponents who don't provide pace, and since I move well, I rarely face an opponent that can take a relatively pace-less ball on the baseline and blow me off the court with their own power. Make sense?
So what I'll probably end up doing is what I've been doing ... If we're rallying or practicing, hit out to improve that aspect of my game and appease my opponent. But if we're keeping score, anything goes.
Is 4.5 USTA the ceiling for a pusher? Is the world of 5.0 reserved for those who can consistently drive deep baseline rally shots regularly (amont other skill sets, of course)?

 

[travlerajm]

When I push a forehand rally shot, I probably swing 66% of my capacity, with no wrist action. I know where it's going, though, and can be mega-consistent. When I swing out at 100 percent and snap my wrist, I get considerably more pace, but of course, more UEs.
But as you noted, few people want to hit with opponents who don't provide pace, and since I move well, I rarely face an opponent that can take a relatively pace-less ball on the baseline and blow me off the court with their own power. Make sense?
So what I'll probably end up doing is what I've been doing ... If we're rallying or practicing, hit out to improve that aspect of my game and appease my opponent. But if we're keeping score, anything goes.
Is 4.5 USTA the ceiling for a pusher? Is the world of 5.0 reserved for those who can consistently drive deep baseline rally shots regularly (amont other skill sets, of course)?

You can keep rising as a defensive ‘pusher’ even against 5.0 players as long as you can still keep the ball consistently deep when defending their powerful drives to the corners. That short shot to middle won’t cut it anymore though - I know this because my forehand tends to land short too often.

 

[r2473]

When I push a forehand rally shot, I probably swing 66% of my capacity, with no wrist action. I know where it's going, though, and can be mega-consistent. When I swing out at 100 percent and snap my wrist, I get considerably more pace, but of course, more UEs.
But as you noted, few people want to hit with opponents who don't provide pace, and since I move well, I rarely face an opponent that can take a relatively pace-less ball on the baseline and blow me off the court with their own power. Make sense?
So what I'll probably end up doing is what I've been doing ... If we're rallying or practicing, hit out to improve that aspect of my game and appease my opponent. But if we're keeping score, anything goes.
Is 4.5 USTA the ceiling for a pusher? Is the world of 5.0 reserved for those who can consistently drive deep baseline rally shots regularly (amont other skill sets, of course)?

I can play the same game style as you and win against most baseline players. It even works well into the 4.5 range. If I can get away with playing this style, I do it. As you say, almost nobody can hurt me from the back of the court with my off pace ball. And I know they will make an error before I will.

What do you do against guys that know how to get to net and know what to do when they get there? Do you lob? How about against guys with good overheads?

No matter how good you think you are, it won't be hard to find someone that can crush you 0 & 0. There are plenty of guys that can take the off pace ball out of the air and hit a safe volley / slice deep. They take your time away and are standing right at the net to put away your weak reply.

Most 5.0's I know don't win with pace. They can hit hard, but only do it when it makes sense. For the most part, they just find your weakness and exploit it for easy points. And they can hit pretty much any shot. You can't.

 

[redrealist]

When I push a forehand rally shot, I probably swing 66% of my capacity, with no wrist action. I know where it's going, though, and can be mega-consistent. When I swing out at 100 percent and snap my wrist, I get considerably more pace, but of course, more UEs.
But as you noted, few people want to hit with opponents who don't provide pace, and since I move well, I rarely face an opponent that can take a relatively pace-less ball on the baseline and blow me off the court with their own power. Make sense?
So what I'll probably end up doing is what I've been doing ... If we're rallying or practicing, hit out to improve that aspect of my game and appease my opponent. But if we're keeping score, anything goes.
Is 4.5 USTA the ceiling for a pusher? Is the world of 5.0 reserved for those who can consistently drive deep baseline rally shots regularly (amont other skill sets, of course)?

That's encouraging. You know, at the end of the day, if I have fewer unforced errors than my opponent, I'm probably going to win. It's really that simple.

 

[chic]

Like I said above I think there's a difference between swingrate and pace in the topspin heavy game. If I slow down my swingrate I get less consistent than if I swing at 80% all the time with varied topspin vs flatness.

Also I think pushing usually implies some combo of always slicing, deflecting, and lobbing to just put the ball in and set up constant awkwardness till the opponent messes up. If you're hitting rally balls, moving people around, and constructing points I don't think that's pushing. The people who complain about that being pushing are just salty people who like fancy shots over consistent play most of the time. People tend to grow out of this mentality by mid 4.0 or they'll stagnate in 3.5-4.0 land but some still succeed beyond that.

 

[chic]

Also, be careful about the idea of using the wrist. You don't want to snap the wrist action really the snap is a natural follow-through from the shoulder and arm motion. If you're gonna seek to try and implement anything intentional through the wrist I strongly recommend paying for a lesson or two with a pro so the process is guided.

There's a lot of bad advice out there about lag and snap and an even greater swath of good advice that can be read wrong if you don't have a really good understanding of what's going on (aka it was written by a pro and not properly elucidated for the avg club player imo)

 

[redrealist]

Also, be careful about the idea of using the wrist. You don't want to snap the wrist action really the snap is a natural follow-through from the shoulder and arm motion. If you're gonna seek to try and implement anything intentional through the wrist I strongly recommend paying for a lesson or two with a pro so the process is guided.

There's a lot of bad advice out there about lag and snap and an even greater swath of good advice that can be read wrong if you don't have a really good understanding of what's going on (aka it was written by a pro and not properly elucidated for the avg club player imo)

Thanks. I have a pretty good grasp on the loose wrist. And even though I may have phrased it poorly, I can feel in my serve and ground stroke when I keep a limp/loose wrist at my swing comes forward, it produces a natural "snapping" action that adds a lot more pop to my serve/shots.

 

[jm1980]

I'm a 4.0 USTA player probably on the cusp of 4.5. I've been playing 6 years. I have focused the last year on "hitting out," as opposed to pushing, and I've had mixed results. I realize my tennis game will plateau if I don't develop pace in my game, and I want to continue to improve, even though I'm 50 years old (who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks?) So, here's the thing: A lot of players stopped playing me when I was pushing and moonballing and drop shotting them. I move very well, and can block practically anything I can get to, and most the time give it good depth, too. Simply put, I was a frustrating opponent to play, as I would rarely, if ever, give an opponent pace to work with. My unforced errors were limited, too.
Well ... That alienated a lot of hitting partners/opponents. I played 1 season of Ultimate Tennis and went 7-1. Anyway, the same people I would beat in straight sets, I now struggle to defeat with the changed gameplan of hitting out. I'm trusting the process and working on my game, focusing on pace, as opposed to winning the match. What I've found is that players I could beat easily with a pushing strategy I will often lose to trying to hammer with them on the baseline. But here is the happy medium I have found ...
I can play on the baseline and hit out and keep balls deep and with pace a decent percentage of my shots. But some of these guys I play practice from the baseline nonstop. One in particular will hit 200 balls in a row, most beyond the "T." So I know it's unlikely I will ever win a baseline battle with this guy. What I've started to do, though, is hit a low liner with a little topspin that barely clears the net, and lands a few feet in front of the T. I am surprised this shot works so well against so many baseliners, but for whatever reason, they never read it quickly enough to come in and do anything with it. Sometimes they don't even get to it. Other times they do, but are left in no man's land, and I easily pass them. Simply put, I've found that instead of trying to beat baseliners side to side with power and/or consistency, I'm better off driving them back, pulling them in, and passing or lobbing them. I don't consider this a dropshot, as I associate those with underspin. But nonetheless, it is a low ball that doesn't pop up too much or give an opponent much time to read, react and do anything with. In fact, I've used this strategy to beat a few players that are probably 4.5 or 5.0 USTA players. So my questions are these: 1. Is that technically a drop shot? 2. Is it a legitimate shot at the club level? 3. How come 4.5 and up players struggle so much with this shot? It's almost as if they have no depth perception, and don't read it's short off the racquet.
I'll leave you with this ... One guy I recently beat by employing this shot regularly in the match, called it a terrible shot and that practically every shot you make in tennis should hit the court, and the next thing it hits should be the back fence. I find that unlikely at the club level, but perhaps I'm wrong. So, long story longer ... What do you guys think of the strategy to beat opponents by keeping them a foot beyond the baseline then hitting a low, short topspin liner to pull them in, then passing them? Does this stop working at "x" level? Am I going to alienate opponents by playing this style?
It really does give me the best chance to win points, as I now consider myself an all-court player. The low, short liner is a weapon for me, not a liability. NOTE: I use this shot successfully against athletic opponents, too, not old men who can't move! I think what it boils down to is that everyone practices hitting from the baseline. Few people practice coming in hard and hitting low, short shots. As a result, it's a weakness for many, and I have no problem exploiting it ... unless there's no one left to play!

A lot of stuff that's unconventional will work at lower levels against many players

But what you are describing sounds suicidal against good 4.0s who can close the net, let alone 4.5 and beyond

 

[redrealist]

I can play the same game style as you and win against most baseline players. It even works well into the 4.5 range. If I can get away with playing this style, I do it. As you say, almost nobody can hurt me from the back of the court with my off pace ball. And I know they will make an error before I will.

What do you do against guys that know how to get to net and know what to do when they get there? Do you lob? How about against guys with good overheads?

No matter how good you think you are, it won't be hard to find someone that can crush you 0 & 0. There are plenty of guys that can take the off pace ball out of the air and hit a safe volley / slice deep. They take your time away and are standing right at the net to put away your weak reply.

Most 5.0's I know don't win with pace. They can hit hard, but only do it when it makes sense. For the most part, they just find your weakness and exploit it for easy points. And they can hit pretty much any shot. You can't.

I consider myself an all-court player, so I wouldn't agree with your last sentence. In all honesty, I'm probably a 4.5 on USTA scale, but I'd rather claim what I am on my worst day than what I am on my best. I still double-fault too much and don't get enough depth on my returns of serves to consider myself a consistent 4.5. But once the rally starts, I like my odds of winning the point by avoiding unforced errors and keeping the ball deep, hitting it to backhands, taking the net and putting it away with an overhead or volley. My other asset, as stated in the OP, is my short game. I play patiently and smart and make high percentage shots. I'm athletic, too.
My smart opponents try to exploit my backhand, though its steadily improving to be service-able, if not a weapon. Anyone who takes the net on me had better not hit a shot to my forehand, because it's either whizzing by them or over them. On my backhand deep and paceless is a good shot against me (as I like to do to others), because I haven't yet mastered taking it on the fly or ripping it consistently down the line or cross court. Drop shots never work against me. If there's a drop shot involved in the point from either side, I'm winning 90 percent of those points.
I played a young kid recently who has all the shots and crushes everything he swings at, even volleys. I lost 6-3, 6-3, and could've done better if I put away volleys at the net instead of losing key points and redirecting them wide. Still, I wasn't too disappointed with the outcome, as my opponent was certainly a better player. I held serve most of the time, and most games I lost went to deuce.
Don't discount the percentage of macho tennis players out there who are in love with winners and think they're good enough to crush into a corner any shot the opponent puts over the net. These guys are better tennis players than I'll ever be, but they play with their dick instead of their mind.
But truth be told I rarely get to play guys who are 5.0 USTA players. I will sign up for 5.5 Ultimate Tennis in the Spring. I will be disappointed if I don't win more matches than I lose.

 

[redrealist]

A lot of stuff that's unconventional will work at lower levels against many players

But what you are describing sounds suicidal against good 4.0s who can close the net, let alone 4.5 and beyond

If they're coming to the net they better hit a damn good approach shot to my backhand. Anything to my forehand and they will lose the point. Others here think you can push and win even up to 5.0 USTA. I'd say 4.5 is more likely the cap, but if I push, keep it deep and limit unforced errors, there are probably a few 5.0s who will get frustrated and lose the game going for winners.

 

[redrealist]

A lot of stuff that's unconventional will work at lower levels against many players

But what you are describing sounds suicidal against good 4.0s who can close the net, let alone 4.5 and beyond

And like others and I have said ... Many players - even at the higher levels -- don't practice short balls and instead fall in love with baseline rallies. Frankly I'm surprised how many of my opponents fall into that category, and every other component of their games is lacking. But let's face it, how many people go to hit balls with a friend and work on things other than baseline rallies? I don't know too many who do drills inside the baseline.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

1. Ultimate Tennis ratings do not correlate with USTA. If you are playing 4.0 Ultimate in Atlanta, you are really a 3.5 or lower.

2. There is really no way that a 4.5 or 5.0 would be playing Ultimate 4.0. And the shots you describe do not work on 4.5 or 5.0 players because A) they get crushed and B) you are never able to hit them because you are always chasing their ball.

 

[jm1980]

If they're coming to the net they better hit a damn good approach shot to my backhand. Anything to my forehand and they will lose the point.

You must have crazy good passing shots then, otherwise it's easy pickings...

All they need to do is hit the volley to the open court. If you get to that, hit another volley to the other side, rinse and repeat as needed. Many players fall into the trap of trying to hit volley winners, when all you need to do is move the guy around.

Others here think you can push and win even up to 5.0 USTA. I'd say 4.5 is more likely the cap, but if I push, keep it deep and limit unforced errors, there are probably a few 5.0s who will get frustrated and lose the game going for winners.

You can push and win at literally every level. It just depends on your definition of "pushing."

Going for winners (specially from the baseline) is the dumbest thing one can do when playing a pusher, because all it does is drive up the count of unforced errors. Rally with the guy and come in on short balls - this will work against practically every recreational level pusher.

 

[jm1980]

And the shots you describe do not work on 4.5 or 5.0 players because A) they get crushed and B) you are never able to hit them because you are always chasing their ball.

I find it very hard to believe that anyone with more than two brain cells and plays 4.5 or up would consistently lose to a tactic like this

 

[MathGeek]

Down here in the UTR 4-6 range, especially against older opponents, the short shot is golden. Lots of older opponents don't even try, they just concede the point. If they do come up to return it, they seldom put it away and then are vulnerable to the lob.

Gotta look out for some of those younger guys though. They will eat that junk up and spank me for it.

 

[redrealist]

1. Ultimate Tennis ratings do not correlate with USTA. If you are playing 4.0 Ultimate in Atlanta, you are really a 3.5 or lower.

2. There is really no way that a 4.5 or 5.0 would be playing Ultimate 4.0. And the shots you describe do not work on 4.5 or 5.0 players because A) they get crushed and B) you are never able to hit them because you are always chasing their ball.

I either wrote it backward or you misread, b/c I know a 4.5 USTA player should be playing 5.5 or 6.0- in Ultimate Tennis.

 

[redrealist]

You must have crazy good passing shots then, otherwise it's easy pickings...

All they need to do is hit the volley to the open court. If you get to that, hit another volley to the other side, rinse and repeat as needed. Many players fall into the trap of trying to hit volley winners, when all you need to do is move the guy around.


You can push and win at literally every level. It just depends on your definition of "pushing."

Going for winners (specially from the baseline) is the dumbest thing one can do when playing a pusher, because all it does is drive up the count of unforced errors. Rally with the guy and come in on short balls - this will work against practically every recreational level pusher.

It really just becomes a game of patience and who can capitalize best on short shots to put the opponent on the defensive and eventually put him away.

 

[Johnr]

1. Ultimate Tennis ratings do not correlate with USTA. If you are playing 4.0 Ultimate in Atlanta, you are really a 3.5 or lower.

2. There is really no way that a 4.5 or 5.0 would be playing Ultimate 4.0. And the shots you describe do not work on 4.5 or 5.0 players because A) they get crushed and B) you are never able to hit them because you are always chasing their ball.

Point #2, exactly. Players at this level would never let OP be in a position to hit shots he describes.

 

[r2473]

I'm a 4.0 USTA player probably on the cusp of 4.5. I've been playing 6 years. I have focused the last year on "hitting out," as opposed to pushing, and I've had mixed results. I realize my tennis game will plateau if I don't develop pace in my game, and I want to continue to improve, even though I'm 50 years old (who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks?) So, here's the thing: A lot of players stopped playing me when I was pushing and moonballing and drop shotting them. I move very well, and can block practically anything I can get to, and most the time give it good depth, too. Simply put, I was a frustrating opponent to play, as I would rarely, if ever, give an opponent pace to work with. My unforced errors were limited, too.
Well ... That alienated a lot of hitting partners/opponents. I played 1 season of Ultimate Tennis and went 7-1. Anyway, the same people I would beat in straight sets, I now struggle to defeat with the changed gameplan of hitting out. I'm trusting the process and working on my game, focusing on pace, as opposed to winning the match. What I've found is that players I could beat easily with a pushing strategy I will often lose to trying to hammer with them on the baseline. But here is the happy medium I have found ...
I can play on the baseline and hit out and keep balls deep and with pace a decent percentage of my shots. But some of these guys I play practice from the baseline nonstop. One in particular will hit 200 balls in a row, most beyond the "T." So I know it's unlikely I will ever win a baseline battle with this guy. What I've started to do, though, is hit a low liner with a little topspin that barely clears the net, and lands a few feet in front of the T. I am surprised this shot works so well against so many baseliners, but for whatever reason, they never read it quickly enough to come in and do anything with it. Sometimes they don't even get to it. Other times they do, but are left in no man's land, and I easily pass them. Simply put, I've found that instead of trying to beat baseliners side to side with power and/or consistency, I'm better off driving them back, pulling them in, and passing or lobbing them. I don't consider this a dropshot, as I associate those with underspin. But nonetheless, it is a low ball that doesn't pop up too much or give an opponent much time to read, react and do anything with. In fact, I've used this strategy to beat a few players that are probably 4.5 or 5.0 USTA players. So my questions are these: 1. Is that technically a drop shot? 2. Is it a legitimate shot at the club level? 3. How come 4.5 and up players struggle so much with this shot? It's almost as if they have no depth perception, and don't read it's short off the racquet.
I'll leave you with this ... One guy I recently beat by employing this shot regularly in the match, called it a terrible shot and that practically every shot you make in tennis should hit the court, and the next thing it hits should be the back fence. I find that unlikely at the club level, but perhaps I'm wrong. So, long story longer ... What do you guys think of the strategy to beat opponents by keeping them a foot beyond the baseline then hitting a low, short topspin liner to pull them in, then passing them? Does this stop working at "x" level? Am I going to alienate opponents by playing this style?
It really does give me the best chance to win points, as I now consider myself an all-court player. The low, short liner is a weapon for me, not a liability. NOTE: I use this shot successfully against athletic opponents, too, not old men who can't move! I think what it boils down to is that everyone practices hitting from the baseline. Few people practice coming in hard and hitting low, short shots. As a result, it's a weakness for many, and I have no problem exploiting it ... unless there's no one left to play!

You should watch old Wilander matches. It sounds like his style is exactly what you'd want to emulate. It sounds like a better idea than "hitting out" for you.

This is the style I play by the way (generally speaking). I find it to be the most interesting style of actual play at the rec level (though boring to watch). Ultimate mental warfare.

2. There is really no way that a 4.5 or 5.0 would be playing Ultimate 4.0. And the shots you describe do not work on 4.5 or 5.0 players because A) they get crushed and B) you are never able to hit them because you are always chasing their ball.

Point #2, exactly. Players at this level would never let OP be in a position to hit shots he describes.

How did Wilander get away with his style of play (and win multiple majors)?

 

[mucat]

My experience is USTA 4.0 and up eat short balls for breakfast

I am not seeing it....