Dealing with aggressive baseliners

[Kirisaki]

I moved up a level to play with 4.0s recently, and am doing ok. I'm winning about 50% of the time.

but the last guy I played was strange. He'd drive absolutely everything, with big power on both his forehand and backhand. I'd try to change the contact point, and began hitting low slices and moderately high, heavy topspin balls. he still drove it back close to the corners with exactly the same pace.

I just couldn't do anything. it didn't help that I could only touch his serves less than half the time, and a lot of those I just framed. that still happened, even when I moved three feet behind the baseline.

i was caught in a defensive position constantly.

normally, i'm a scrambler type player that moves to net occasionally, and serves and volleys maybe one point per game. but i could hardly pull off any effective returns, and I couldn't move to net period.

and for a lot of his huge drives, I couldn't even react. I normally run for every ball, and try to. it's a part of my game, i'm fast moving sideways and forward. but he was changing directions constantly, and he forced weak balls out of me after only one or two shots.

the worst part is, he was pretty consistent with the seemingly high-risk game.

i can deal with consistent players who go by the percentages. i always have a chance. but against these aggressive baseliners and big servers that go for broke, i find myself simply standing there.

any suggestions or improvements I need to make?

 

[tom-selleck]

any suggestions or improvements I need to make?

don't play that guy again!!!

in all seriousness, he doesn't sound like a 4.0... a guy with big serve who hits hard into both corners at will is probably a 4.5... to actually compete, start grooving that lob. i think it's pretty effective at all but the top levels.

at my club, 4.0 is a catch-all, meaning some very good players and frankly some pretty mediocre players.... i don't see that at 3.5 or 4.5, but 4.0 seems to have all types.

 

[Jon Hampton]

Ah, agressive baseliner at your service

Honestly, if you want to beat an aggressive baseliner, you're going to have to pull your opponent out of the "comfort zone". You're opponent has probably worked many years on developing a solid serve, return, forehand/backhand game with very few technical flaws. However, tennis is like any other sport: your opponent always has an Achilles heel; that is, your fatal weakness. This weakest is what you need to exploit.

For most power baseliners, it come in the form of volleying. Not high, put-away volleys...most any 3.5 player can hit those. But, reaction volleys and volleys below the stomach. Most baseliners lack the touch necessary to create winners off of seemlngly impossible volleys. Just look at someone like Andre Agassi...big baseline game, but significantly weaker volleys compared to the rest of his game.

If this is the case, you need to hit short to bring up your opponent to the net. From here, three options: try and pass (try 25% of the time), hit to directly to them to try and draw an error or at least set up another attempt at a pass (50%), or lob (25%).

I guarentee that against a powerbaseliner this strategy will help you win points more often. Hope this helped

 

[ohplease]

I'd call that guy a pretty good 4.5, actually.

In my mind, a typical 4.0 will give you errors. A good 4.0 won't. A typical 4.5 will be able to hurt you when he should, most of the time. A good 4.5 will be all money, all the time when he's supposed to be, and he'll still be pretty good on more difficult balls - which is what this guy sounds like.

 

[Rickson]

Ah, agressive baseliner at your service

Honestly, if you want to beat an aggressive baseliner, you're going to have to pull your opponent out of the "comfort zone". You're opponent has probably worked many years on developing a solid serve, return, forehand/backhand game with very few technical flaws. However, tennis is like any other sport: your opponent always has an Achilles heel; that is, your fatal weakness. This weakest is what you need to exploit.

For most power baseliners, it come in the form of volleying. Not high, put-away volleys...most any 3.5 player can hit those. But, reaction volleys and volleys below the stomach. Most baseliners lack the touch necessary to create winners off of seemlngly impossible volleys. Just look at someone like Andre Agassi...big baseline game, but significantly weaker volleys compared to the rest of his game.

If this is the case, you need to hit short to bring up your opponent to the net. From here, three options: try and pass (try 25% of the time), hit to directly to them to try and draw an error or at least set up another attempt at a pass (50%), or lob (25%).

I guarentee that against a powerbaseliner this strategy will help you win points more often. Hope this helped

Excellent advice, Jon. Most power baseliners don't like coming to net so like Jon said, draw him in and test his volleying skills, but be careful, some guys play you from the baseline and stay there because they're winning easily and they're just staying away from the net because they don't need to go there when they're pummeling you already. The guy might be a very good volleyer and you just don't know it... yet.

 

[AngeloDS]

Aggressive Forehand Slices. It just skids the ball and it's hard to pick up especially down the line. If he does return it, you're already moving forward and can aggressively volley.

 

[Kirisaki]

i did try the drop shots and short slices to get him to net. they're not bad, either.

but unfortunately, the guy was capable at net as well. it was clear he wasn't a natural volleyer, but his volleys were like out of a textbook (sorry if it isn't clear, english is my second language), and could attack balls there even if he preferred the baseline.

i think he was definitely above the 4.0 level. his volleys weren't bad, and he could keep them deep.

my lob is good. not great, but it's a reliable shot. i still didn't have much success.

he attacked the topspin semi-lobs (moonballs) with successful drives consistently. he dealed with the deep slices as well.

after thinking it over more carefully, on some of the short, skidding slices i got a normal forehand instead of a blast. the problem is, i'm not used to hitting those most of the time.

so I guess I just need to work on the slices. thanks very much for the replies.

 

[AngeloDS]

What grip do you use, and where are you most comfortable at?

As they say, "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail."

Hits are one thing, but strategy is another thing. Most people think they have to hit their hardest, or throw in multiple shots. No, just don't randomly do it. You need a strategy. Most people go out there like mindless zombies and hit hoping to win the points. You need to watch what your opponent does during the match. I see a lot of people miss some things. Think what you're going to do before you serve.

Think to yourself. Serve out wide, he'll go across court and come in and get the ball down the line. Most of tennis people hit cross court, because it's the higher percentage shot. If they start going down the line it's a lower percentage shot to make.

You can't just slice and stay where you are. You need to move in, you need to keep those feet moving. Don't stop those feet. I remember I was watching this girl in the tournament I had around July 9th. Man, she NEVER stopped moving her feet for the whole match. Not once did I see her plant her feet. You can't just hit to easier spots of the court (most people hit towards the middle). You need to go down the line, across the court, and move in if necessary. Keep your opponent off balance.

Did you watch Paradon's and Agassi's match today? Running your opponent left and right real fast and keeping them off balance works well. Agassi commaneded the middle of the court while he made Srichapan (sp?) run left and right. When the role was reversed where he started making Agassi run. He was coming out with amazing shots, and winning points.

It's really hard to beat people above your level. The only way to match them is with experience, and with hard work. It just doesn't click.

 

[Kirisaki]

i never expected it to click. i am always trying to move or recover, i usually play a scrambler type game. but even after i positioned myself correctly and did the splitstep, I often couldn't react to his shots. most were right by the corners.

i use an eastern/semiwestern hybrid. i switched to it a year ago and am very comfortable with it. i know where my contact zone is, and i know what i want to do with the ball.

but when hit with so many changes of direction to the corners, i just couldn't react. it's hard to do what you want with the ball when you can hardly make clean contact.

same thing, i couldn't keep him off balance. i tried to attack his backhand repeatedly with moonballs (not bad ones), and it held up as he simply blasted to the corners again. i attempted the short slices and moved in on them to net. while i achieved the most success there because he wasn't as comfortable with the short skidding slices, he still often hit it back with force. not to mention i couldn't pull those off often because he never gave me time to prepare.

i am most comfortable a foot behind the baseline. i also play at net when the situation calls for it, and don't feel out of place either. but i was simply blasted off the court.

 

[Phil Daddario]

It sounds like the guy was simply a lot better than you. Not to be mean or anything, he just seems like someone with plenty of weapons AND consistency. That's more than a 4.0, definitely. At least a solid 4.5.

If all your options didn't work, it seems you just need to work more on your game. develop a big weapon yourself that can hold up under pressure. It's also possible you're not preparing as well as you think you are.

 

[AngeloDS]

His strategy is power and hitting to the corners. Knowing this, he usually hits the balls towards the middle of the net (that's how you get cross court corners with power) or down the line.

You either A) need to create angles where he can't do that by adding sidespin to your ball and having more control to the ball. Or B) Improve your game to hold your own.

So you know he hits to corners, cut those corners off. Anticipate where he'll hit based off his body language and his position on the court. You have to watch your opponents body language but also their positions.

You can tell when people are going to slice, you can tell when people are going to hit left or right. You can tell when people do stuff because they give hints away during matches.

 

[Kirisaki]

i'm not saying he was slicing, he was ALWAYS driving. not much variation, but lots of pace and good spin as well. sort of what some people call "heavy" balls, lots of speed and spin.

he doesn't aim towards the middle often. huge changes in direction. i've been taught that doing it like that almost always makes for lots of unforced errors, but he hardly had any the entire two set match. (I lost 6-0, 6-1, by the way).

i'll have to try learning to anticipate better, like you said. but it was hard to watch for any body signs carefully when i was always on the run. it'd just zip by me. plus, when i was watching him as closely as possible in the warmup, there didn't seem to be much variation. good disguise.

phil d, thanks for the response. i'll continue to work on my game.

edit- by the way, angelo, what level are you? you must be pretty good if you're able to react and anticipate so well.

 

[AngeloDS]

5.0 Forehands, 4.5 Backhands (one handed and two handed) and 4.5 Volleygame. I'm an aggressive baseliner, but also close to the net I just create insane angles that most people have a hard time getting to. When I'm inside the court, I hit real good angles. My inside court game is all about my angles with controlled agression. I can kick it up in pace, or knock it down in pace.

My baseline is all about blasting (with a lot of drive and topspin) cross court to the corner, and down the line. I always get be-daggled when people come to the net and cut off one of my corners (because to get across court corner I usually hit down the middle of the net. And I can't really hit it anywhere else to go to the corner when I'm cross-court so the middle is where 100% of my crosscourts go) I can hit to. So I'm forced to hit to them hoping they get hit, or they mess up. They hardly mess up on the reflex volley. I usually have to hit down the other corner which they'll be there to reflex volley (because the reflex volleys are real poor on the pace, and they have the time) or push it back at me deep at me and catch me hitting the ball off balance and catching it more soon off the ground.

|------|------| The middle of the net, when I go cross court that's where all of my balls find themselves. It's a matter of the person being able to get there to volley well, or reflex volley and get lucky.

So, I try to keep pace and make sure they can't run in to the net fast enough. I try to make sure they don't get the chance, by keeping up pace and position.


I'd also recommend spending some time hitting against the wall to improve your ability to hit harder (and to take balls with some pace) and hit slice forehands. I have a hard time taking my coach's slice forehands to my backhands. I can get to them, but they're so low to the ground my percentage of hitting a shot to keep me in is low. He'll either be at the net to take my backhand, or it'll be a fault on me.

 

[Jon Hampton]

Excellent advice, Jon. Most power baseliners don't like coming to net so like Jon said, draw him in and test his volleying skills, but be careful, some guys play you from the baseline and stay there because they're winning easily and they're just staying away from the net because they don't need to go there when they're pummeling you already. The guy might be a very good volleyer and you just don't know it... yet.

Amen to that Rickson. I can't count how many times I played a guy who I thought was a power baseliner, but was really just a great all-court player; I tried hitting short and got demolished from the net.

And I forget whose comment it was, but somebody mentioned drop shots. Drop shots...especially from back on the baseline...are low-percentage. I wouldn't go for a drop shot too often. Instead, I'd just try and hit short with the intent of brining your oppponent to the net, instead of trying to create a winner.

 

[GotGame?]

It does look like this guy is better than 4.0. You should practice returns and don't get intimidated by games like this. Keep doing what you do, and come back even after missing a point, bringing the same game. Just keep focused and I'm sure continued exposure against players of this kind and working on the parts of your game that were weakest will give you better success against aggressive baseliners.

 

[dennis10is]

any suggestions or improvements I need to make?

You are describing a strong 4.5 or even a rusty 5.0. If he's really like what you are describing then you can do only one thing, hit moon ball against him, flat one, slicing lobs, topspin loopy lobs, what ever you can do, and be prepare to run all day. Maybe you will frustrate him and win more games.

You won't improve, you won't win too many partners, but you may do better.
If he's as good as you are describing, he will come in and end the point, you will of course try to lob, he will hit many overheads.

At any time, the moment that he hits anything less aggressive, or short, you will immediately try to attack but don't go for too much. Just attack, this will change the psychology, because he will feel like he made a mistake, after all, how can a moon baller be attacking, maybe you will get some points on these rare attacking play. this may unsettled him and he'll make more mistakes.

That's your only hope really in the short term. You may last longer, you may win more games. You'll probably lose his respect for you game, but he may respect your toughness more.

 

[mucat]

Kirisaki, I am about the same level and I have the same style as you, a counter-puncher. In my mind, the worst match-up for me is someone that can overpower my shot, and it did happen long time ago once. I still remember, I couldn't do anything on his service game because he setup shortballs with his huge serve, and I couldn't do anything because my serve was weak and he could dictate the point after returning the ball to the corners. And he was hitting hard and fast and almost error free. I tried coming to the net, bring him to the net, nothing worked. In the end, I got begal.

A retriever's nightmare is got nothing to retrieve, I can relate.

 

[Kirisaki]

You are describing a strong 4.5 or even a rusty 5.0. If he's really like what you are describing then you can do only one thing, hit moon ball against him, flat one, slicing lobs, topspin loopy lobs, what ever you can do, and be prepare to run all day. Maybe you will frustrate him and win more games.

You won't improve, you won't win too many partners, but you may do better.
If he's as good as you are describing, he will come in and end the point, you will of course try to lob, he will hit many overheads.

At any time, the moment that he hits anything less aggressive, or short, you will immediately try to attack but don't go for too much. Just attack, this will change the psychology, because he will feel like he made a mistake, after all, how can a moon baller be attacking, maybe you will get some points on these rare attacking play. this may unsettled him and he'll make more mistakes.

That's your only hope really in the short term. You may last longer, you may win more games. You'll probably lose his respect for you game, but he may respect your toughness more.

i don't know if i'll get to play him as often as i want like that, i certainly hope so though.

i dont think im exajerating (im sorry, i dont know how to spell it) either. it seemed like every single point the ball was coming by fast.

i tried those loopy balls, i tried the slice, i tried everything. he returned it back, just to another corner. but i think i said before, i couldnt pull off the skidding slices much since i could almost never prepare and make easy contact with the ball.

he let up on a couple points, and i tried to attack like you said. i got a couple points this way, even one by challenging him directly and approaching when he was already at net. but i still lost half of those and i can barely say half since i think there were...four.

so i guess i was just completely outclassed. maybe the guy just had a really good day, thats probably wishful thinking and i need an excuse, LOL.

mucat, it sounds exactly like you describe. i had nothing to retrieve. i dont push or send my shots back with nothing, but my big weapon is court coverage. i had none of it.


im going to try to just improve. i need to get more in shape and plan on doing lots of agility things to develop my strengths. ill be working on the slice and plan on adding a little more pace/spin onto things so i wont set myself up so often.

thank you very much. i apolugize if my posts are hard to read, ive been studying english for very long but have problems spelling many things. when i type i also forget to capitalize and only some of my contractions (is that right?) have apostrufis (the ' things). i am still learning. i hear many words and know what they mean, but sometimes spelling it takes time for me to memorize.

 

[goober]

When I first moved from the 3.5 to the 4.0 league I had a real hard time with the guy who sounds very similar to the guy you played. He had big groundstokes off both sides and a nasty kick serve. He played mostly baseline, but would put away any short ball or come to the net if you gave him something short. He beat me 6-3, 6-3. I thought this guy should be in 4.5s, but there was a reason he wasn't there- he wasn't consistent enough.

The next three times I played him I won, simply by running everything down, keeping the ball deep and hitting as few unforced errors as possible. Our matches were close but I knew the longer any point went on the higher chance that I was going to win it.

 

[Kirisaki]

i dont know if ill be able to play him again, i hope so. but in this match, he was really, really consistent, even with the high risk tactics. i dont know if it was normal for him or if it was a really good day.

i always try to get back as many balls as possible. i often sacrifice pace and spin for as much depth as possible, although im working more to get it all at the same time. he just seemed to take it and send it back immediately.

 

[x Southpaw x]

I'd love to play those kind of players. Pretty much because I play with a very similar style. Strategy is simple, murder or be murdered. But since I play like that, I can tell you how you can be less skilled stroke-wise and still beat him by disrupting his concentration and mental game. Use the moonball, practicing your retrieving skills. Moonball every single drive and serve he gives you, then when he goes for safer shots, hit a high bouncing topspin ball to his backhand. Basically if he is like me, he'll start losing his concentration by 3rd game, stop split-stepping because he expects slow high returns, stop contacting the ball in front of him, he might even start rushing the net and volleying balls long. Reason being each time he hits a good fast ball, you return a slow high ball. Oh and you can use loud grunts and "come on"s to further disrupt his rhythm. And key is to make each point last as long as possible.

EDIT: oh and one more thing, don't be afraid to play high, slow and short near the service line.

 

[FiveO]

i always try to get back as many balls as possible. i often sacrifice pace and spin for as much depth as possible, although im working more to get it all at the same time. he just seemed to take it and send it back immediately.

But were you keeping the ball deep enough? Power baseliners can push the opponent (especially a counter-puncher) further behind the baseline. Most everyone grooves their shots to a certain length playing from a set depth either on or behind the baseline. If the power baseliner pushes the counter-puncher 4-5 feet deeper behind the baseline, generally, the counter-puncher's grooved groundies will land 4-5 feet shallower in the court, nearer the service line, where the power baseliner can dictate from.

This is what would happen in every Agassi vs. Chang match. Agassi was able to push Chang further and further behind the baseline and Chang's replies would land shorter and shorter in the court, allowing Agassi to step in more and hit either corner at will. Agassi was a bad match up for Chang.

If your opponent forced you to play deeper you were probably giving up shorter balls more consistently. The opponent can step in and achieve more depth and direction very consistently from inside the baseline. He begins to lean in all the time waiting to take the shorter reply higher and pound it into the corner of his choice.

If consistently getting into longer rallies, as stated above, hit deeper than usual. Play your game and COUNT. Like devout s&v'ers, power baseliners have an internal clock. More so than other styles, they have a certain number of shots by which they expect the point to be over, win or lose. As a counter-puncher, you have to find that number and try to consistently exceed it. 4, 5, 6, whatever. Then get yourself into the exchange which favors getting to that number. You'll likely find his UE's rise, and bring the equally rated PB down to earth. Depth gets you there.

You said you can play from the net. I would not have advised drawing the power baseliner into the net, because again, that means giving up a shorter ball. If you've been pushed back and attempt to draw the pb in, you're giving up a short ball with which he continues to dictate because he's not pressured. You're getting stuck in that same pattern of play. However, if you stand your ground and mix in chips low and short I would suggest you charge. You'll pressure the power baseliner's pass by your presence at the net and, if you can keep it low, you'll be forcing him to hit up while attempting the pass. Mixed in with deeper shots this play will also keep the pb from setting up.

But, especially when serving, stay on offense. Don't necessarily look to settle into a rally. Identify patterns to keep the power baseliner from setting up. Try as best you can to keep him on the run. Serve wide, hit his return to the opposite corner, then maybe an offensive short angle to the opposite side off that. Try to dictate the point. Not necessarily with pace, but with offensive direction. Holding will also, shift pressure on the opponent.

In short:

Try to hold your depth at the baseline.
Maintain your depth of shot into the opponent's court.
Find his rally number limit.
Prevent the power-baseliner from setting up using direction and depth control.
Play more offensively when serving.

Good Luck.

 

[Kirisaki]

I'd love to play those kind of players. Pretty much because I play with a very similar style. Strategy is simple, murder or be murdered. But since I play like that, I can tell you how you can be less skilled stroke-wise and still beat him by disrupting his concentration and mental game. Use the moonball, practicing your retrieving skills. Moonball every single drive and serve he gives you, then when he goes for safer shots, hit a high bouncing topspin ball to his backhand. Basically if he is like me, he'll start losing his concentration by 3rd game, stop split-stepping because he expects slow high returns, stop contacting the ball in front of him, he might even start rushing the net and volleying balls long. Reason being each time he hits a good fast ball, you return a slow high ball. Oh and you can use loud grunts and "come on"s to further disrupt his rhythm. And key is to make each point last as long as possible.

EDIT: oh and one more thing, don't be afraid to play high, slow and short near the service line.

im sorry, but i tried all of that. i pounded his backhand with those semi-lob topspin balls repeatedly. he took each one and blasted it away. and as i said before, he had adequate net skills. he never went for safer shots. he never had to, because he almost never screwed up.

FiveO, thanks for your post. I always tried to keep the ball deep. but at my current level, i had to take a little pace off the ball to get it consistently right near the baseline.

but as you said, like when i was on the run and barely keeping up, he eventually got those short replies pretty quickly. and then it'd be blasted away immediately, and he'd often put it away at net.

your plan seems fine. but i often held in those rallies (by this i mean the number of balls hit before my weak reply) for up to 14 at a time. and i believe he was often sort of just playing with me then.

ill have to try charging the net more often. i do do it sometimes, and i feel comfortable enough there.

ill keep working. thank you all very much again.

 

[Rickson]

Southpaw's moonball suggestion is not bad if you do it with a lot of topspin, hit them deep, and to the backhand side. Most players hate high bouncers to the backhand, but if he can handle those well, then it's off to try another plan.

 

[Kirisaki]

ill repeat myself again. im sorry, i must be hard to understand maybe. my fault.

i tried pressuring his backhand with the topspin moonballs. I keep them deep, maybe a foot or two from the baseline consistently. he was strong on both wings. it seems that if i play him again or play a similar person, ill work harder on finding weaknesses and just play my own tennis.

 

[x Southpaw x]

Southpaw's moonball suggestion is not bad if you do it with a lot of topspin, hit them deep, and to the backhand side. Most players hate high bouncers to the backhand, but if he can handle those well, then it's off to try another plan.

Hm is he a 2BH player? Coz I use a 1BH and returning high topspin balls to my BH require lots of concentration. If he's a 2BH player he'll have other weaknesses. I don't use 2BH so I'm not exactly sure of what they are.

 

[Rickson]

Do what Federer does when he plays Roddick. Make some good crosscourt rallies and let him make the first error. If you simply counterpunch, you're gonna be on the losing end no matter what so work on your power groundstrokes and use his pace against him. Look at Coria, he's supposed to be a counterpuncher, but he can exchange groundstrokes with the best of them.

 

[AngeloDS]

Work on your volley game. He hits hard, you can use his pace against him. He's hitting to the corners, so you can cut off corners by positioning him to hit down the line and be there to take the open court volley.

The only way your volley game will work is if you can control your volleys deep and to the corners. Don't position him in the center. Give him no other choice, and cut off one of the corners.

This is what my coach did to me during a tournament. It was extremely effective. You have to move your opponent, and I was moving me left and right while he pretty much controlled the net. It didn't work for him 100% of the time, but 70-80ish percent of the time.

You can't have your opponent in the middle. You give him too many places to hit the ball.

 

[AngeloDS]

If you get the chance watch the Schnyder vs Williams. You'll see how effective volleying is.

 

[tennisplayer]

Excellent advice, FiveO. Thanks.