Deep Impact Targets - A strategy to point construction

[mightyrick]

Nadal leaving balls short is what cost him the match yesterday. Some of his balls did not even cross the service line. The Dog took those balls and hit Deep Impact Targets winners.

Yep, it is exactly what I was seeing as I watched the match. He left way too many balls at the service line. Right in Dolgopolov's wheelhouse. I think I watched The Dog crack three or four of those right into the corner for an outright flat winner -- with Nadal running like mad trying to catch up to it.

Nadal definitely wasn't up to the task yesterday.

 

[sureshs]

He did hit a number of Smart Targets though, pulling the Dog out wide. But he did not hit enough Deep Impact Targets to win.

 

[sureshs]

Deep Targets: 1
Smart Targets: 0

 

[Power Player]

Nadal leaving balls short is what cost him the match yesterday. Some of his balls did not even cross the service line. The Dog took those balls and hit Deep Impact Targets winners.

I believe they had a graphic illustrating this called DITs.

 

[mightyrick]

I wanted to let you know that I have spoken to several coaches in the Indian Wells area and we have been testing your Deep Impacts theory as well as other of your theories with our students. It has been very successful.

 

[Power Player]

I'm not trying to mess with 5263, just joking around. For the record. It was interesting seeing how Dolgo attacked Nadal last night.

 

[mightyrick]

I'm not trying to mess with 5263, just joking around. For the record. It was interesting seeing how Dolgo attacked Nadal last night.

Whenever Nadal loses, it's always like this. Sometimes, for whatever reason, he just can't keep the ball at 3500 RPMs and keep the ball deep. I can't blame the guy. It may take incredible strength and stamina to do that.

I personally struggle to do it over three successive points... let alone three hours.

 

[sureshs]

^^^ You mean you can hit 3500 rpm for two consecutive points?

 

[mightyrick]

^^^ You mean you can hit 3500 rpm for two consecutive points?

Lol, no way. Mine is probably more like 350 RPMs.

 

[Power Player]

It is extremely tiring to play Nadal's style. That is why so many people try and fail at the rec level. To hit with that much topspin and also maintain the pace of shot so the ball doesn't sit up is really hard.

That is why I made that thread about attacking the net. I have been doing it more and more and I stay fresh longer throughout a match and am not just grinding side to looking for an opening to hit a winner through from the baseline.

 

[Fintft]

That is why I made that thread about attacking the net. I have been doing it more and more and I stay fresh longer throughout a match and am not just grinding side to looking for an opening to hit a winner through from the baseline.

I tend to agree with you, except that:

a) My main goal from the baseline is to elicit a short reply that I can attack.

b) Otherwise I'm coming to the net mainly after I put my opponent in difficulty (i.e. with a hard ball in his corner) and if he can hang out in those baseline rallies.

 

[Power Player]

I tend to agree with you, except that:

a) My main goal from the baseline is to elicit a short reply that I can attack.

b) Otherwise I'm coming to the net mainly after I put my opponent in difficulty (i.e. with a hard ball in his corner) and if he can hang out in those baseline rallies.

Yeah I am pretty much the same. Instead of looking for the short ball as much as I used to, I choose to do point B more often and add pressure to the opponent's next shot. Just a style of play I find to really work against a lot of players.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Nadal's style is so effective because he is fit enough to hit like that over a full match. The only way to beat him is to take his shots early and pound the corners, but with the pace and spin Nadal puts on the ball, and Nadal's court coverage, it's a ridiculous challenge. Every so often though, especially when Nadal's hurting, a guy finds himself up to it and upsets him.

 

[Fintft]

Yeah I am pretty much the same. Instead of looking for the short ball as much as I used to, I choose to do point B more often and add pressure to the opponent's next shot. Just a style of play I find to really work against a lot of players.

True and more props to you - personally I have to work more on my volleys and overheads, but like you, I've started increasing the ratio of these plays.
Having said all of that, I'm also working on my topspin BH and there is no better feeling when your 1 BH > the opponent's FH.

 

[Fintft]

Nadal's style is so effective because he is fit enough to hit like that over a full match. The only way to beat him is to take his shots early and pound the corners, but with the pace and spin Nadal puts on the ball, and Nadal's court coverage, it's a ridiculous challenge. Every so often though, especially when Nadal's hurting, a guy finds himself up to it and upsets him.

And/or learns also how to defend, like Djokovic did.

 

[Topspin Shot]

And/or learns also how to defend, like Djokovic did.

Okay, but how many players can cover the court like Djokovic and still hit big enough to trouble Nadal? Djokovic still has to pound the corners; if he plays passively, Nadal trucks him.

 

[Fintft]

Okay, but how many players can cover the court like Djokovic and still hit big enough to trouble Nadal? Djokovic still has to pound the corners; if he plays passively, Nadal trucks him.

Yeah and I hope Rafa's back heals or w/e it is that stops him from getting to his previous good shape. I hated those short balls against Dolgopolov...

 

[Cheetah]

John Yandell is at Indian Wells being interviewed by Gimelstob right now on the Tennis Channel.
Gimelstob is asking him about "Modern Tennis".

 

[Topspin Shot]

John Yandell is at Indian Wells being interviewed by Gimelstob right now on the Tennis Channel.
Gimelstob is asking him about "Modern Tennis".

And I don't get the Tennis Channel. It's a good thing too, or I'd never get my work done.

 

[5263]

Yeah I am pretty much the same. Instead of looking for the short ball as much as I used to, I choose to do point B more often and add pressure to the opponent's next shot. Just a style of play I find to really work against a lot of players.

Are you doing this without the short ball ?

 

[Fintft]

Are you doing this without the short ball ?

Power Player didn't answer yet, but since we both agree that we try to do the same, here is my minor answer:

Yes, I'm trying to come to the net after hitting any ball that puts the opponent in difficulty and doing this without looking first for a (really) short ball, b/c a (really) short ball can be usually hit for a straight winner.

Basically at times one can attack other balls as well (not only short balls), but the result may not be a winner right away (when struck from the baseline).

 

[Power Player]

Are you doing this without the short ball ?

Yes for sure. I am able to tee off on inside out forehands and higher bouncing balls to my backhand. Really worked on that for a while now.

I just run in right behind that shot now and take the chance that they may hit a clean DTL backhand winner.

I also gauge if they are lunging, and off balance first as well.

 

[Fintft]

Yes for sure. I am able to tee off on inside out forehands and higher bouncing balls to my backhand. Really worked on that for a while now.

I just run in right behind that shot now and take the chance that they may hit a clean DTL backhand winner.

I also gauge if they are lunging, and off balance first as well.

Ah, you must have a 2HBH?
I only come in after my FH (and only improved marginally on my 1HBH).

 

[RajS]

Yes for sure. I am able to tee off on inside out forehands and higher bouncing balls to my backhand. Really worked on that for a while now.

I just run in right behind that shot now and take the chance that they may hit a clean DTL backhand winner.

I also gauge if they are lunging, and off balance first as well.

I have a long way to go before I will feel comfortable doing this in singles, although I am a fairly decent volleyer in doubles. It is due to combination of problems, I think. To do with anticipation, and controlling my movement. I never know how close to get to the net. If I am too close, simple lobs become very difficult. If I am not close enough, it's hard to play a good volley, let alone stick it good, which is essential against good movers. Sometimes I hit a good shot, get my opponent on the move, close in to the net, and then watch a blocked floater go by just out of reach,,, frustrating, but fun, as always!

 

[Power Player]

Ah, you must have a 2HBH?
I only come in after my FH (and only improved marginally on my 1HBH).

Yes I do, but I run around it on moon balls and loopers to hit an i/o forehand many times.

 

[onehandbh]

Yes for sure. I am able to tee off on inside out forehands and higher bouncing balls to my backhand. Really worked on that for a while now.

I just run in right behind that shot now and take the chance that they may hit a clean DTL backhand winner.

I also gauge if they are lunging, and off balance first as well.

Do you find your opponents have more difficulty hitting passing shots when
your approach shot is deeper and closer to the baseline or shallower and
closer to the service line?

 

[5263]

Yes for sure. I am able to tee off on inside out forehands and higher bouncing balls to my backhand. Really worked on that for a while now.

I just run in right behind that shot now and take the chance that they may hit a clean DTL backhand winner..

How far back would you use this?

 

[Power Player]

Do you find your opponents have more difficulty hitting passing shots when
your approach shot is deeper and closer to the baseline or shallower and
closer to the service line?

Deeper for sure. I hit deep, and was taught to do so since I was a kid. That being said, if it is deep and right to them, it's not ideal unless I just crush it and they get caught late. What I like is deep shots to the sidelines and corners. I also am able to hit really sharp angles too that bounce in the service box before going out to the side sometimes too, so I like to have a variety.

My main thing is that I like to get in a rhythm of relentlessly approaching if I believe that will win me the match.

How far back would you use this?

In all honesty I can hit clean winners from 4 feet behind the baseline. Not all the time like a robot, but I have the power to do so. So thinking about it, I am usually 2-4 feet back unless it is a shorter moon ball.

I don't come in off a shot that is subpar or the opponent is ready for. But some guys I know I can relentlessly come in on behind this shot and the %s work in my favor.

 

[psv255]

Deeper for sure. I hit deep, and was taught to do so since I was a kid. That being said, if it is deep and right to them, it's not ideal unless I just crush it and they get caught late. What I like is deep shots to the sidelines and corners. I also am able to hit really sharp angles too that bounce in the service box before going out to the side sometimes too, so I like to have a variety.

There's also this interesting short slice up the line, bounces before the svc line and stays low, that I find annoys players if I use it once/twice a set. They're caught off guard and cough up a sitter

 

[Fintft]

Deeper for sure. I hit deep, and was taught to do so since I was a kid. That being said, if it is deep and right to them, it's not ideal unless I just crush it and they get caught late. What I like is deep shots to the sidelines and corners.

Goods stuff Power Play and while I also like to do the above (and running around the BH in order to hit I/o FH), you really are way ahead of me (including on paper!) with the rest:

I also am able to hit really sharp angles too that bounce in the service box before going out to the side sometimes too, so I like to have a variety.

My main thing is that I like to get in a rhythm of relentlessly approaching if I believe that will win me the match.


In all honesty I can hit clean winners from 4 feet behind the baseline. Not all the time like a robot, but I have the power to do so. So thinking about it, I am usually 2-4 feet back unless it is a shorter moon ball.

I don't come in off a shot that is subpar or the opponent is ready for. But some guys I know I can relentlessly come in on behind this shot and the %s work in my favor

I.e. I can only do sharp angles with the FH and mainly as a defensive/counter shot (more top spin).

Kudos!

 

[5263]

In all honesty I can hit clean winners from 4 feet behind the baseline. Not all the time like a robot, but I have the power to do so. So thinking about it, I am usually 2-4 feet back unless it is a shorter moon ball.

That is pretty good, because in all my charting of the best players, I've not found any of them able to do that from 4 ft back. Of course they are playing some of the best movers in the world, and you are not...

I know this is a relatively new style for you. I'd be curious if over time and more experience with it, if you find it more effective when you are at least inside the BL with one of your feet...especially when using power shot to come in and against the better opponents you face.

 

[Power Player]

That is pretty good, because in all my charting of the best players, I've not found any of them able to do that from 4 ft back. Of course they are playing some of the best movers in the world, and you are not...

I know this is a relatively new style for you. I'd be curious if over time and more experience with it, if you find it more effective when you are at least inside the BL with one of your feet...especially when using power shot to come in and against the better opponents you face.

That is the key. I can hit big forehand winners because Im not playing ATP players. I did get a few like that on a Blue Chip Junior though, but it's not like he did not beat me 6-1..lol. The reason I can hit those winners is because I can get balls that are attackable from back there, and an ATP player is not going to give you that shot.

2nd part - not sure what you mean. The style of attacking net and following my shots?

 

[5263]

2nd part - not sure what you mean. The style of attacking net and following my shots?

Yes, just relating to how you have talked about coming to net more recently, right?

 

[5263]

2nd part - not sure what you mean. The style of attacking net and following my shots?

I'm curious what you find as you continue to work and experiment with coming to net off your groundstrokes more. I'd expect that against good players relative to you, that when using a powerful stroke to come in, that you would have more success from a position inside the BL and that it might be a bit tougher when you come in off a powerful shot from behind the BL. Maybe you can share some feedback as to what you notice in relation to this?

 

[Power Player]

Yeah. Its working against weaker players strokewise that can play on a4.0 level because they are so good at retrieving but dont have a lot of weapons. It works like a charm.

4.5 and up it is more of a gamble. So what i notice is i train myself to attack relentlessly against lower level players but 4.5 and up i have to pick my spots. since i am alway thinking about attacking it changes my mentality and i dont miss the opportunity to move forward like before . It still takes them by surprise and still works, but they are off balance less and i have to be smarter. Sometimes i just go for it and they hit a dtl winner, but now its in their head that im coming and it definitely changes the game and gives me an edge.

Also i am getting better at volleying. A lot better. So that is nice. 6 months from now i may have a rather nice net game.

 

[5263]

So what i notice is i train myself to attack relentlessly against lower level players but 4.5 and up i have to pick my spots. since i am alway thinking about attacking it changes my mentality and i dont miss the opportunity to move forward like before .

This makes sense to me and sounds like a good way to go about it.

 

[Power Player]

Did this again tonight. My volley game is getting so much better. It is rather encouraging. And i did it on clay tonight which is a very tough surface to crash net on.

 

[Edburger]

Deep Impact Targets... pretty sure I saw that porno.

 

[5263]

Did this again tonight. My volley game is getting so much better. It is rather encouraging. And i did it on clay tonight which is a very tough surface to crash net on.

How does your fh and bh volley compare?
How deep do you intend to volley?

 

[Power Player]

How does your fh and bh volley compare?
How deep do you intend to volley?

BH is far better right now. Very clean and easy to direct. FH has improved a lot. Just takes longer, I think due to my using such an extreme SW for groundies, and switching to conti..not sure. But it feels a lot more natural than 2 weeks ago.

Volley depth is not really an issue. I don't come up intending to push someone back, I come up to put the ball in the open court. So I go more for hard angles that I could not do with groundstrokes.

 

[LeeD]

Don't you gotta push someone back when you come to net? I find, if I push the baseliner back to around his average groundstroke positioning, I can usually win the point from net positioning. If my opponent hit's his passing shots from inside his baseline, or as close as mid NML, HE usually wins the point.
And if I pop up a volley or approach by mistake, it lands around his service line, HE should win the point at least 80% of the time.
Gotta push the baseliner back, so your volleys can work, along with your overheads.
Angled volley can work, but only after you've established your position, and moved HIM back behind his baseline.

 

[Power Player]

Don't you gotta push someone back when you come to net? I find, if I push the baseliner back to around his average groundstroke positioning, I can usually win the point from net positioning. If my opponent hit's his passing shots from inside his baseline, or as close as mid NML, HE usually wins the point.
And if I pop up a volley or approach by mistake, it lands around his service line, HE should win the point at least 80% of the time.
Gotta push the baseliner back, so your volleys can work, along with your overheads.
Angled volley can work, but only after you've established your position, and moved HIM back behind his baseline.

Just matters the ball I get when I approach. I like to approach and put the ball into the open court as much as possible.

 

[5263]

BH is far better right now. Very clean and easy to direct.

I take that as a good sign. Seems to me that once a person is really starting to get the volley, that the Bh is better from then on.

 

[LeeD]

I can agree an approach to the open court is desireable, but to me, as important is hitting that approach shot very deep, so the opponent is hitting his passing attempt from behind his baseline, so I have more time to volley his ball, or to hit my overhead. Depth is key, at my level anyways.
If I give my opponent a running forehand or backhand from mid NML, I'm basically toast, because his shot is now moving much faster at me, I have less time to react, and his target is now bigger.
I find depth on approach volleys or shots is key, placement is secondary. While I can't run alley to alley, every single one of my competitors can, and are usually considered very fast runners on the court.

 

[President]

Lee, you should really get surgery or some type of treatment for your ankle or whatever it is that prevents you from running. It must suck to have once been an athletic guy and now you can't even run.

 

[LeeD]

Thanks, but I"m 65, have the scar tissue well developed, and several orthopedic docs have said the scar tissue would make the recovery period much longer than simple reattachment surgery, and might take longer than a year recovery.
At 65, I"m not planning much on long term play.
My rotator cuffs started acting up again a couple weeks ago. I could not brush my teeth nor shave with one hand, and needed the elbow support from the other to get my hand up to my mouth level. For over 10 years back in my '50's, I couldn't use only one hand to shave or brush my teeth.
Better, after trying to surf some closeout 4' shorebreak, my board axed my outer thighs, causing both a charley horse and some weird tendon/nerve damage, so I can't place much weight on my good leg.