Denied Greatness by Injury. Who was most "robbed?"

D

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
If Hoad had not wrecked his back with his crazy self-made weight-lifting exercise, lifting round fifty-pound weights on his back, we could surmise that he would have PROBABLY won (we cannot say anything more than "probably" for something which never happened) the following, in addition to his already impressive resume.

1) 1956 Forest Hills
2) 1958 pro tour
3) 1958 Forest Hills TOC
4) 1958 Roland Garros Pro
5) 1959 American pro tour
6) 1961 Wembley

Would winning these in addition to his other wins have added something to Hoad's overall rating or stature?

Probably not.

Because here are what Hoad actually won, enough to establish his all-time rating.

You cannot do better than first, right?

1) 1953 Davis Cup
2) 1955 Davis Cup
3) 1956 Australian
4) 1956 French
5) 1956 Wimbledon
6) 1957 Wimbledon
7) 1958 Kooyong TOC
8) 1959 Forest Hills TOC
9) 1960 Kooyong
10) 1959/60 Ampol Tour
11) 1961 Kramer Cup
12) 1962 Kramer Cup
 
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abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
Dan Lobb said:
If Hoad had not wrecked his back with his crazy self-made weight-lifting exercise, lifting round fifty-pound weights on his back, we could surmise that he would have PROBABLY won (we cannot say anything more than "probably" for something which never happened) the following, in addition to his already impressive resume.

1) 1956 Forest Hills
2) 1958 pro tour
3) 1958 Forest Hills TOC
4) 1958 Roland Garros Pro
5) 1959 American pro tour
6) 1961 Wembley

Would winning these in addition to his other wins have added something to Hoad's overall rating or stature?

Probably not.

Because her are what Hoad actually won, enough to establish his all-time rating.

You cannot do better than first, right?

1) 1953 Davis Cup
2) 1955 Davis Cup
3) 1956 Australian
4) 1956 French
5) 1956 Wimbledon
6) 1957 Wimbledon
7) 1958 Kooyong TOC
8) 1959 Forest Hills TOC
9) 1960 Kooyong
10) 1959/60 Ampol Tour
11) 1961 Kramer Cup
12) 1962 Kramer Cup
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LOL, Hoad was in-form and beat Gonzales in Wembley 61 SF. Lost to Rosewall in the final. No injuries there. He plain *****' lost. Deal with it .

Also including Kramer cup as something that important is hilarious.
Plus DC and Kramer Cup are team events.
 
K

KarmaKorps

Rookie
Rhino said:
My immediate thoughts were Haas and then Soderling.

Just imagine if Soderling could have continued playing?
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Soderling hit big, with above average consistency for such big hitting/aggression ... but his shot-selection and mental fortitude was always a worry. I don't recall him being a world class mover, either.
However, he had the quality of a slam winner. I would guess a slam or two for him had he been able to continue.
 
boredone3456

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
Immediately think of Ancic and Haas. Granted neither were not going to be GOAT candidates but they both had their careers pretty badly altered.
 
MLRoy

MLRoy

Hall of Fame
MathGeek said:
Me. The trip through the birth canal robbed my coordination and motivation. I'd have been the GOAT if delivered by C section, yet here I am languishing somewhere near 3.0 with the occasional 50+ victory the most I can muster.
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Those C-sections are a b*tch.
 
MLRoy

MLRoy

Hall of Fame
I had forgotten about Guga. I really liked watching him play because he had a fun game to watch, and because I always use him when experts bloviate you have to be strong and/or muscular to be successful in the contemporary men's game. He had arms like a 12 yr old girl. So did Chris Evert. It's technique!!

Anyway, another Brazilian has him beat, as well as everyone else mentioned: Maria Bueno. She was a member of The Big 3 in the '60s. Really the only one ( & Ann Jones would make up The Big 4) who can & did challenge Court & King every time they played. I wish I knew the head-to-heads, but you know how useless the WTA is.

She had already won 7 singles slams in 10 years ('58-'68), suffered hepatitis during her shortened career(!), then had to retire at age 29-30. So, she had at least 2 good years left with 8 more chances to add to her slam wins.
 
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Oh Definitely

Oh Definitely

Rookie
BHud said:
Seles...a knife to the back when you're owning the GOAT is the worst I can think of.
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Couldn't agree more... although one might argue Monica's incident at the Citizen Cup was more than an "injury", the WTA (including every other player on tour), wanted to treat it a such, therefore she wins.

Imagine if Michael Jordan was stabbed in the back with a boning knife by a psychopathic fan of Clyde "The Glide" Drexler during a game in front of 6000 spectators? The perpetrator probably wouldn't't have made it out of the stadium alive...
 
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Bukmeikara

Bukmeikara

Legend
Del Potro has the best case. He was on track on an ATG trajectory during the peak years of the Big 4 + he is still coming back injury after injury.

Ferrero I think is more mental than anything. He was out about a month in 2004 and suddenly felt from top 3 to top 20. Chiken pox doesnt have this kind of a lethal effect.

Hewitt was affected by injuries but at that point he was extremely consistant by reaching SF-F's but even without them he would hardly find the answer for the upcoming Nadal, Djokovic and Murray.
 
H

Hawaiian grip

Professional
Bukmeikara said:
Del Potro has the best case. He was on track on an ATG trajectory during the peak years of the Big 4 + he is still coming back injury after injury.

Ferrero I think is more mental than anything. He was out about a month in 2004 and suddenly felt from top 3 to top 20. Chiken pox doesnt have this kind of a lethal effect.

Hewitt was affected by injuries but at that point he was extremely consistant by reaching SF-F's but even without them he would hardly find the answer for the upcoming Nadal, Djokovic and Murray.
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AFAIR Ferrero started having all kinds of physical issues, it wasn't only chicken poz although it was the beginning of everything.
 
hoodjem

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Dan Lobb said:
If Hoad had not wrecked his back with his crazy self-made weight-lifting exercise, lifting round fifty-pound weights on his back, we could surmise that he would have PROBABLY won (we cannot say anything more than "probably" for something which never happened) the following, in addition to his already impressive resume.

1) 1956 Forest Hills
Click to expand...
Did Hoad start his “crazy” weight-lifting as early as 1956?
 
D

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
hoodjem said:
Did Hoad start his “crazy” weight-lifting as early as 1956?
Click to expand...
He started the push-ups with the 50 lb. weights on his back in early 1954, just after he began military service.
Hoad admitted that the purpose of the exercise was to impress his fellow soldiers.

He continued this grandstanding manoeuvre after he left military service later that year, but Trabert reported that Hoad was complaining about back pain in 1955.
 
hoodjem

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Dan Lobb said:
He started the push-ups with the 50 lb. weights on his back in early 1954, just after he began military service.
Hoad admitted that the purpose of the exercise was to impress his fellow soldiers.

He continued this grandstanding manoeuvre after he left military service later that year, but Trabert reported that Hoad was complaining about back pain in 1955.
Click to expand...
Wow! That early.

Thanks.
 
hoodjem

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Oh Definitely said:
Couldn't agree more... although one might argue Monica's incident at the Citizen Cup was more than an "injury", the WTA (including every other player on tour), wanted to treat it as such, therefore she wins.

Imagine if Michael Jordan was stabbed in the back with a boning knife by a psychopathic fan of Clyde "The Glide" Drexler during a game in front of 6000 spectators? The perpetrator probably wouldn't't have made it out of the stadium alive...
Click to expand...
I blame the crowd . . . for not lynching Parche.
 
M

mental midget

Hall of Fame
i believe injuries took out michael stich as well. from a talent standpoint not too many guys i'd put above him. hoad was before my time but by all accounts he's gotta go near the top of the list. rios, yeah.

also, filed under careers that really never even got going, remember pim-pim johansson? he was looking terrifying until injuries took him out.
 
Q&M son

Q&M son

Professional
That's life, not a robbery, man. Just that's the way it is. As Argentine I must say "if DelPo"... no way.
 
Olli Jokinen

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
MLRoy said:
I had forgotten about Guga. I really liked watching him play because he had a fun game to watch, and because I always use him when experts bloviate you have to be strong and/or muscular to be successful in the contemporary men's game. He had arms like a 12 yr old girl. So did Chris Evert. It's technique!!

Anyway, another Brazilian has him beat, as well as everyone else mentioned: Maria Bueno. She was a member of The Big 3 in the '60s. Really the only one ( & Ann Jones would make up The Big 4) who can & did challenge Court & King every time they played. I wish I knew the head-to-heads, but you know how useless the WTA is.

She had already won 7 singles slams in 10 years ('58-'68), suffered hepatitis during her shortened career(!), then had to retire at age 29-30. So, she had at least 2 good years left with 8 more chances to add to her slam wins.
Click to expand...

Guga? Arms of a 12-year old? Ok then: https://tennis.newssurge.com/tennis...Kuerten+practices+without+a+shirt+on.jpg.html
 
Olli Jokinen

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
Backhanded Compliment said:
Lol... correct

Though I believe Guga was robbed of a great deal by injury, but it was the hip... potential US Open Australian open champ, when He became YE #1 he beat Sampras and Agassi on HC to do it. He figured out HC but his body didnt hold up.
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He was definitely robbed of greatness due to injuries. He would have transitioned into a brilliant all-courter if his his body had held up.
 
D

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Backhanded Compliment said:
Lol... correct

Though I believe Guga was robbed of a great deal by injury, but it was the hip... potential US Open Australian open champ, when He became YE #1 he beat Sampras and Agassi on HC to do it. He figured out HC but his body didnt hold up.
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HC (which is rubber) is hard on the legs, knees, hips....compared to grass or clay.

When did we hear of leg or knee troubles in the old grass/clay era? None that I can think of.
 
Backhanded Compliment

Backhanded Compliment

Legend
Dan Lobb said:
HC (which is rubber) is hard on the legs, knees, hips....compared to grass or clay.

When did we hear of leg or knee troubles in the old grass/clay era? None that I can think of.
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oh it was there but using wood racquets certainly was better on the arms... also much harder to have a 20+ stroke rally using a 60inch wood head. Grinding on slow hardcourts is kinda the worst for legs. Ive got a very slow rebound ace hard court nearby with ground up tennis shoes in it and though it helps the knees the longer ralleys certainly is more wear and tear.
 
D

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Backhanded Compliment said:
oh it was there but using wood racquets certainly was better on the arms... also much harder to have a 20+ stroke rally using a 60inch wood head. Grinding on slow hardcourts is kinda the worst for legs. Ive got a very slow rebound ace hard court nearby with ground up tennis shoes in it and though it helps the knees the longer ralleys certainly is more wear and tear.
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Well, today's hardcourt is composed of a rubber surface, and if you wear rubber soled shoes, of course you get squeaking and gripping as rubber rubs on rubber. That puts stress on the legs, knees, hips from the friction.

No thank you.
 
Drob

Drob

Hall of Fame
Winners or Errors said:
Another comes to mind: Marcelo Rios. What do the late 90s and first half of the 00s look like with a healthy Rios? He was, if I recall correctly, decimated by injury from late 1999 through the end of his career.
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If someone knows detail about Rios' injuries, this would be really enlightening. I know he was troubled. But he was never clear about what the problem was (something with the leg it seemed, mostly). It was hard to know whether it was serious injury or Rios mentally discouraged, or Rios frightened? I don't claim to have researched this with vigor, but I have tried to look into it and it remains a mystery to me. I'd be grateful if someone can put me straight.
 
Drob

Drob

Hall of Fame
Good choices by folks and nearly all identified. Not sure anyone mentioned Lacoste, as it looks like we are considering illness as well as injury. This had rather dramatic impact because he was arguably World No. 1 at time (or co w Cochet) and only 25 years old. I don't think he would have played more than another two or three years because he was also so programmed toward and passionate about business and industry, but in two more seasons another two or three Majors and embellishment of Davis Cup success?

Rafter was mentioned - think he would have had the 2002 Wimbledon irrespective of slower surface if not for the shoulder giving out. Hoad's achievements obviously affected, but not to degree some would imagine.

Lots of good mentions. Of these, Muster has to be considered the most impacted IMO. Followed probably by Kuerten, Delpo.

What about Stitch? Probably belongs.

Many more cases since hardcourts became the standard surface. Old days to early-Open era, few cases. Some say Budge, which I think is a little overstated, although not w/o significance. Actually, Budge's buddy and doubles partner, Gene Mako, is one of the few clear cases I know of. Mako was equally hot prospect with Budge (some thought hotter), but suffered highly debilitating arm/shoulder injury. Essentially had no serve thereafter but still made US final in singles. Cooper might have been limited by illness, but it wasn't clear how much traction he was getting on the pro tour. Hoad was mentioned. Roche was a probably serious case arising before hardcourts. Stan Smith perhaps makes this list from the earlier era before hardcourt dominance.
 
PDJ

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Steady Eddy said:
How about Tracy Austin? She looked like she was going to dominate the 80s, but injuries and bad luck plagued her comeback.
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Definitely bad luck re car accident and boiling water. However, injuries purely from playing would have caught up with her: she rarely warmed up or warmed down. Plus unforgiving cement courts and a stiffer body than Evert.
 
PDJ

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
PDJ said:
Definitely bad luck re car accident and boiling water. However, injuries purely from playing would have caught up with her: she rarely warmed up or warmed down. Plus unforgiving cement courts and a stiffer body than Evert.
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That said: I saw Austin play the Wimbledon legends event a few years back, and she was much more fluid and not only held her own with Hingis and Kournikova, but she and Rinaldi beat them!
 
Kemitak

Kemitak

Professional
It's all speculation and I agree with all the mentions so far, but I'll mention Brian Baker aswell. He won the Orange Bowl, and was a junior French Open finalist, losing to Wawrinka. He had injury after injury and wasn't healthy long enough to show his true potential, but I've seen him play, and man is he good. Like when you watch guys like Federer live and realise the tennis has just jumped a few levels.

A few of you mentioned Pim-Pim, and I agree, but the way he served, it was inevitable his shoulder would be eff'd.

I might add James Blake (who did have much success regardless), and Taylor Dent to the discussion.

If spiritual crises count, David Wheaton.

And finally, if bad decisions count, Mardy Fish, who said he didn't realise until he was 28 or something that as a professional athlete he couldn't just have cheeseburgers & beer for dinner. When he finally did take health and diet seriously, he had some good results, like finalist in Cincinatti, but then he ran out of time with the heart thing.
 
K

KG1965

Legend
Delpo.
leonardo-dicaprio-piange-disperato-gif.gif
 
Pro tennis historian

Pro tennis historian

Rookie
Winners or Errors said:
I think it is safe to say that we have lived through an era in which the durability of the great players until the age of 30 at least has reached new levels, but it's the talented ones who limped away from the game that fascinate me at times. What if one of these guys had not been struck down by injury?

My list of guys I think would have done great things without devastating injury...

Tommy Haas
Pat Cash
Guga

A bit off the pace, but still interesting would be Robin Soderling.

Who are yours? I'm sure my memory is quite incomplete.
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I agree about Guga and Pat Cash. Cash was around in a tough era, with so many legends standing in his way. He beat Lendl at the Australian in 1987 and 1988, but lost five set finals to Edberg and Wilander. At Wimbledon 1987 Cash beat Lendl to win the title and lost to Becker when he was defending champion in 1988. Then, after a great 2 years in 1987-88, Pat's career was as good as over aged 23 as he was plagued by a succession of major injuries to his Achilles tendon, knees and back. In later Grand Slam appearances he was a shadow of his former self. Cash was a good volleyer, had a beautiful backhand, a decent serve. He could have been a great player without the injuries.

Juan-Martin del Potro is someone with immense heart and has battled back from serious wrist injuries that kept him out of tennis for several years. He could have won more slams (if Murray could win 3 slams in the Djok-Fed-Nad era, then Delpo certainly could have done if he had had a clear run for several years without injuries).

Going back in time, Lew Hoad was plagued with back problems that cost him several important titles, including the world championship series. Just how much he could have won is hard to say, as Gonzales and Rosewall were both two of the best ever, but he certainly would have won more than he did.

Another player that was seriously injured was Tony Roche. Roche should have won an open era grand slam title at the very least, but an injury kept him out of the game for 3 years when in his prime (these were the Smith/Nastase years, inbetween the Laver and Connors/Borg eras of domination when Roche was injured).

Guga Kuerten basically only had half a career before injuries got the better of him. One of his last big victories (when past his best) was an easy win over Federer in 2004 at Roland Garros (Fed won the other three slams that year). It is such a shame that Nadal never played Kuerten in a semi or final at Roland Garros, that would have been great to see.

Rafa could have won more but for injuries, but he has a great resume. Same with Tilden, Budge and Kramer (Kramer was plagued by arthritis), but all three had already achieved a lot before their ailing bodies took their toll. Of course it should be said that people's game styles can sometimes contribute towards injuries. Staying injury free is a great asset.
 
TheGreatOne1997

TheGreatOne1997

Rookie
Nadal. 17 slams but would be more like 24-25 at the moment if not for the knee injuries. When you who has been robbed the most, well Nadal has been "robbed" the most since he was robbed HANDS DOWN GOAT-Hood.

Think about it for a minute. He only has 3 slams less than Federer and he's had re-occuring knee problems since 2009. Imagine if he didn't. He would have left the slam record in the dust years and years ago and still winning them


Mehh.. I don't know about Del Potro. His Stamina has always been questionable. Regardless of the injuries.
 
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