Did Becker overperform at ATP Tour Finals or did Edberg underperform?

[NedStark]

Becker flat out under-performed in the Wim 93 and 95 matches vs Sampras (though Stich QF and Pioline QF+Agassi SF had some role)
Goran broke Sampras 7 times at Wimbledon (3 in 92, 2 in 95, 2 in 98). and he did have 2 BPs in the Wim 94 final.

Yeah, since 1992, Becker often had stamina problems if he had to play 5-set matches in earlier rounds.

I wonder how Ivanisevic managed to break Sampras' serve so many times in Wimbledon though since he was never known to be the greatest return player and also taller than Becker which considering the low bounce doesn't make things any easier. He must have broken Pete at least 5-6 times in 4 matches. Perhaps if you serve big your opponent gets nervous about his own serve which is what might have happened to Becker whenever he faced Sampras in WB.

Ivanisevic is quite underrated in return on grass. Not just Becker, Goran also returned better than Agassi against Pete.

 

[abmk]

Ivanisevic is quite underrated in return on grass. Not just Becker, Goran also returned better than Agassi against Pete.

nah, opportunistic returning from Goran helped with his own serving putting pressure on Sampras.
Agassi broke Sampras 4 times in Wim 93 QF.
Of course Agassi didn't break Sampras in the Wim 99 final, but that was Sampras at his very best hold wise and Agassi returned well in that one as well.

 

[NedStark]

I agree, also as an Edberg fan. In the post I just replied to @abmk, I'd drafted but then deleted material about how Edberg was, when at his best, better suited to playing Becker on grass than on indoors (at least on indoor carpet) because grass's bad bounces were advantageous to Edberg in a match against Becker, both because he generally dealt with them better due to being a more flexible player and because they at least somewhat muted Becker's go-for-broke returning style, the tactic that brought him so much success against Edberg in general and so little against Sampras, whose serve was so dominant that it required a more percentage response. Basically, Becker would tee off on return whenever possible against Edberg. It resulted in a lot of poor return games but when he hit a purple patch, it would be very difficult for Edberg to handle. On carpet, teeing off was a more plausible tactic, because there were no bad bounces to make it even riskier an approach. Sampras, of course, also found Becker an easier opponent on grass than indoors, and I think partly for similar reasons - Becker might have managed one break of the Sampras serve across their three Wimbledon matches had he done a better job of getting the ball back in play.

Something that you should notice, and Warpsting also noted in his match reports:

Becker only served at 80% of his capacity against Edberg in their Wimbledon trilogy. His serve speed was significantly lower than usual.

In comparison, in his matches against Curren and Lendl, Becker went full cylinder on his serves and rained down bombs. Acing Edberg only 5 times in 5 sets (in 1990 final) is exceedingly low - in contrast Becker hit over 20 aces against Lendl in 1989 SF.

IMO, Becker made a serious tactical blunder here against Edberg. You don't see Sampras, Ivanisevic, or Krajicek dialing down their serves unless they were injured (like Sampras in 1993 Wimbledon). Becker should have focused on maximizing aces and unreturnables - had he decided to have Edberg eating bombs like Ivanisevic in 1992, he would have won 2 if not all 3 of their Wimbledon final matches.

 

[Thetouch]

IMO, Becker made a serious tactical blunder here against Edberg. You don't see Sampras, Ivanisevic, or Krajicek dialing down their serves unless they were injured (like Sampras in 1993 Wimbledon). Becker should have focused on maximizing aces and unreturnables - had he decided to have Edberg eating bombs like Ivanisevic in 1992, he would have won 2 if not all 3 of their Wimbledon final matches.

I didn't know Becker served only 5 aces in 1990 as you mentioned before and yet it shows he could have gotten away with it. I mean you are a break up in the 5th even though you slept through the first 2 sets and still lose that match. He could have served only 2-3 more aces to save that match.

 

[Mustard]

nah, opportunistic returning from Goran helped with his own serving putting pressure on Sampras.
Agassi broke Sampras 4 times in Wim 93 QF.
Of course Agassi didn't break Sampras in the Wim 99 final, but that was Sampras at his very best hold wise and Agassi returned well in that one as well.

Sampras and Agassi were both injured in that 1993 Wimbledon quarter final match. Sampras with shoulder, Agassi with wrist. Agassi was even using a modified service motion because of his wrist injury, which he started doing at 1993 Wimbledon and carried on for the rest of that year until his December 1993 wrist surgery. Agassi was keeping his injury a bit "hush hush" at the time, but in hindsight the injury is very obvious. The modified service motion was done to keep his wrist from doing any sort of twist, and aims at more aces.

 

[abmk]

Sampras and Agassi were both injured in that 1993 Wimbledon quarter final match. Sampras with shoulder, Agassi with wrist. Agassi was even using a modified service motion because of his wrist injury, which he started doing at 1993 Wimbledon and carried on for the rest of that year until his December 1993 wrist surgery. Agassi was keeping his injury a bit "hush hush" at the time, but in hindsight the injury is very obvious. The modified service motion was done to keep his wrist from doing any sort of twist, and aims at more aces.

I remember Agassi's funky service motion at Wim 93.
Not Sampras being hampered in that as much.

 

[NedStark]

I didn't know Becker served only 5 aces in 1990 as you mentioned before and yet it shows he could have gotten away with it. I mean you are a break up in the 5th even though you slept through the first 2 sets and still lose that match. He could have served only 2-3 more aces to save that match.

If he served 15-20 aces then Edberg would have been torn to shreds

 

[buscemi]

If he served 15-20 aces then Edberg would have been torn to shreds

In the first two sets, Edberg was playing sublime tennis. He was simply not missing on his volleys, and he didn't face a single break point. Meanwhile, aside from Becker's weaker than usual serving, he was misfiring on a bunch of volleys (which, admittedly, would he been easier if he were serving bigger). Those sets were 6-2, 6-2. In the third set and fifth sets, Becker only broke Edberg once. So, a bigger serving Becker might have won. After all, it was still 6-4 in the fifth set even with his weaker serve. But I don't see him tearing Edberg to shreds.

 

[HBK4life]

Sampras and Agassi were both injured in that 1993 Wimbledon quarter final match. Sampras with shoulder, Agassi with wrist. Agassi was even using a modified service motion because of his wrist injury, which he started doing at 1993 Wimbledon and carried on for the rest of that year until his December 1993 wrist surgery. Agassi was keeping his injury a bit "hush hush" at the time, but in hindsight the injury is very obvious. The modified service motion was done to keep his wrist from doing any sort of twist, and aims at more aces.

Andre was wildly out of shape as well.

 

[JasonZ]

I don't think Ivanisevic even had a break point in the 1994 Wimbledon final.

Sampras didn't have a break point in the 1992 Wimbledon semi final. 36 aces by Ivanisevic, a number of aces which I believe he repeated in their 1995 Wimbledon semi final.

he had one break point at 5 all in the first set definetely.

 

[JasonZ]

Yes, that might be part of it. Having a double-handed backhand probably helped. And being a bit younger so not being set in his ways and refusing to change return strategy.

Ivanisevic broke Sampras at least six times at Wimbledon: three in 92 (he won 67 76 64 62), twice in 95 (he lost 76 46 63 46 63) and once in 98 (he lost 67 76 64 36 62). I am fairly sure he didn’t break him in 94 and only twice in 95. I haven’t checked but I think there might have been an exchange of breaks in one of the tiebreak sets in 98, in which case Ivanisevic broke Sampras seven times. I don’t remember the 92 semi well enough even to guess at whether there were exchanges of breaks. Due to rain, it was on court 1 at the same time that the Agassi v McEnroe semi was on centre, and in those days it was harder to override the tv choice. So I only saw the end of the third set and the fourth set. Plus it’s been 31 years!

ivsnicevic broke sampras twice in the 1998 final. that famous return game in the 4th set with 4 winner passing shots, and in the second set, after he himself got broken at the beginning.

 

[Hood_Man]

I watched the Ivanisevic vs. Sampras match in full at a later date. It had no commentary on the footage of the full match.

On the day of the final between Agassi and Ivanisevic, I remember that I went walking with my grandad that late morning and we lost our dog for a while, as there had been a dog ahead of us who looked similar to ours. We searched for quite a while, and it turned out that our dog had been in the car all along. When we got home, Agassi and Ivanisevic were warming up.

 

[NedStark]

In the first two sets, Edberg was playing sublime tennis. He was simply not missing on his volleys, and he didn't face a single break point. Meanwhile, aside from Becker's weaker than usual serving, he was misfiring on a bunch of volleys (which, admittedly, would he been easier if he were serving bigger). Those sets were 6-2, 6-2. In the third set and fifth sets, Becker only broke Edberg once. So, a bigger serving Becker might have won. After all, it was still 6-4 in the fifth set even with his weaker serve. But I don't see him tearing Edberg to shreds.

OTOH, the 1988 final would have been a straight set win for a bigger serving Boris, since he already won the first and brought the second to tiebreak

 

[GuyForget]

I wonder how Ivanisevic managed to break Sampras' serve so many times in Wimbledon though since he was never known to be the greatest return player and also taller than Becker which considering the low bounce doesn't make things any easier. He must have broken Pete at least 5-6 times in 4 matches. Perhaps if you serve big your opponent gets nervous about his own serve which is what might have happened to Becker whenever he faced Sampras in WB.

Goran's return was surprisingly potent at it's best (e.g. W95/98 matches vs Pete)

 

[andreh]

Goran also had a good record against Edberg, something that can't be accomplished without a decent return.