Djokovic Nadal - The quality of tennis is being over rated

[Brett UK]

I have seen some comments to suggest the Djokovic Nadal match was one of the highest quality ever.

To me Nadal looked impressive but I felt Djokovic was often at a level well below his best quality. His returns were nowhere near his peak, and he had a few really off returns in key points in the 2nd and 3rd sets. I felt that he was off in the 2nd set, and good not great in the 3rd set, but yes he did really lift impressively for the tie break and Nadal was good in the tie break as well. I thought Djokovic was passive in the 4th set as well.

I'm not saying this to be down on Djokovic. It's more that I know how much talent he has and I expect a lot of him. It is a compliment to him in a way that I think he was not so great but still got the better of Nadal. I expect Djokovic is going to get a lot better from here and likely to have a good run against Nadal. It just seems to be a good match up and he has a massive edge in the serve/return match up. It will be troubling for Nadal that it felt like it was hard for Nadal to do a lot better but I see Djokovic has having huge room for improvement.

 

[tegg96]

They were both playing absolute astounding, top level red lining tennis. The solid ball striking was off the charts. It rarely ever gets better than that. How can you knock the quality of that play, by either man, was simply tennis at it peak.

 

[Noleberic123]

Not really. Both hit 73 winners and 42 unforced errors.

 

[Rabin]

Every great match has some lulls, it's ridiculous to point to a couple of missed returns and say Djokovic played below par overall. He sucked for an entire set at the RG SF in 2013 but no one would say that wasn't an amazing match.

 

[Mr Feeny]

They were both playing absolute astounding, top level red lining tennis. It rarely ever gets better than that. How can you knock the quality of that play, by either man, was breathtaking.

Djokovic wasn't playing redlining tennis, though. He was far from his best. He was hesitant. His backhand down the line was missing nearly the entire match. I lost count of the number of times he had a point one but was too low on confidence to pull the trigger and instead went cross Court to Nadal's forehand.

He's played tons of better matches and he will be in better form by the US open. That wasn't Novak at his best and yet he still pulled through, as the OP said. It's going to be scary when he does get back to his usual level.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Quality alone borderline top 5 for the decade or so, I suppose - but combined with edge-of-your-seat drama and massive significance, it's one of the best matches, for sure. Definitely a Wimbledon classic.

 

[Brett UK]

They were both playing absolute astounding, top level red lining tennis. The solid ball striking was off the charts. It rarely ever gets better than that. How can you knock the quality of that play, by either man, was simply tennis at it peak.

I'm not knocking Djokovic. I'm actually saying he has played way better than that in the past and he will play better than that in the future.

 

[Brett UK]

Every great match has some lulls, it's ridiculous to point to a couple of missed returns and say Djokovic played below par overall. He sucked for an entire set at the RG SF in 2013 but no one would say that wasn't an amazing match.

It was a great match. Very tense and dramatic. I'm just providing a sober perspective that this was not the very best of Djokovic although it might have been the best of Nadal. It was certainly clutch Djokovic

 

[Brett UK]

Djokovic wasn't playing redlining tennis, though. He was far from his best. He was hesitant. His backhand down the line was missing nearly the entire match. I lost count of the number of times he had a point one but was too low on confidence to pull the trigger and instead went cross Court to Nadal's forehand.

He's played tons of better matches and he will be in better form by the US open. That wasn't Novak at his best and yet he still pulled through, as the OP said. It's going to be scary when he does get back to his usual level.

Good to have some perspective on here. Djokovic won that operating at 80% of his potential, but he was at 100% clutch.

 

[MatsPhilander]

It was great, but make no mistake this Djokovic is still only at 75-80% of his peak. Rafa has got his grass mojo back but didn't have a contest on his hand until the quarters. If this was the Novak of 2014/2015 Nadal would have been lucky to take a set off of him.

 

[Brett UK]

It was great, but make no mistake this Djokovic is still only at 75-80% of his peak. Rafa has got his grass mojo back but didn't have a contest on his hand until the quarters. If this was the Novak of 2014/2015 Nadal would have been lucky to take a set off of him.

agree. A few years back it felt like Djokovic could break Nadal's serve every 2nd time. Although Djokovic was mentally strong on the big points he was clearly very nervous in the 4th set. Look how many ball bounces he did. Becker commented on it. Once Djokovic can relax into the matchup again he will be well ahead of Nadal.

 

[MichaelNadal]

It was great, but make no mistake this Djokovic is still only at 75-80% of his peak. Rafa has got his grass mojo back but didn't have a contest on his hand until the quarters. If this was the Novak of 2014/2015 Nadal would have been lucky to take a set off of him.

PLEASE.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

It was a great match.

But it's obvious that Djok was hardly 2015 level - and to be fair Nads wasn't exactly 2008 level either.
Still the match of the tournament.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Best Djokovic Nadal match I think. Rafa didn't wait around and hit his FHDTL. Novak's backhand was working and it pushed Rafa.

Rafa took his backhand to play offensive and came to net to finish points.

It was not their normal play. Both players redlined their game very much.

I heard from commentators that Novak this year has been better at baseline than in 2014/15 or 16 and I felt that way too. Still Rafa won more than half baseline points I think but Novak's serve and returns were too good.

 

[coolboarder]

I want to see the 90's grass back so that we can tell what type of quality matches they can produce between Nadal and Djokovic. Hence is the reason why serve and volley is a quality skill that most players in 90's possession and is a lost art, imo. If we get to see the 90's grass and play in a match like that, baseline vs baseline, we can see the type of grass is impossible to play unless you serve and volley.

 

[Antonio Puente]

It was great, but make no mistake this Djokovic is still only at 75-80% of his peak. Rafa has got his grass mojo back but didn't have a contest on his hand until the quarters. If this was the Novak of 2014/2015 Nadal would have been lucky to take a set off of him.

Jesus. Anderson took two sets off him in 2015.

Don't hurt yourself with the hyperbole.

 

[Antonio Puente]

Quality alone borderline top 5 for the decade or so, I suppose - but combined with edge-of-your-seat drama and massive significance, it's one of the best matches, for sure. Definitely a Wimbledon classic.

Overall, from start to finish, it was a better match than Wimbledon 2008, and easily better than 2017 AO, but will never achieve the same notoriety because it's not Fedal.

 

[Sudacafan]

I'm not knocking Djokovic. I'm actually saying he has played way better than that in the past and he will play better than that in the future.

Any Big Three at 60% of their peeks easily dominates any new and next gen prospects.

 

[Bender]

Djokovic wasn't playing redlining tennis, though. He was far from his best. He was hesitant. His backhand down the line was missing nearly the entire match. I lost count of the number of times he had a point one but was too low on confidence to pull the trigger and instead went cross Court to Nadal's forehand.

He's played tons of better matches and he will be in better form by the US open. That wasn't Novak at his best and yet he still pulled through, as the OP said. It's going to be scary when he does get back to his usual level.

His BH DTL has been quasi AWOL since 2011. It's really overrated in that it's talked about as if it's perpetually at the Rome 2011 level when it's not.

Since 2011, it has been a somewhat rare sight and thankfully for him it isn't needed to win.

 

[True Fanerer]

The truth is that they played an epic match and were obviously better than anyone else in the world at that moment. That is the truth. Enough with the BS.

 

[NatF]

Quality alone borderline top 5 for the decade or so, I suppose - but combined with edge-of-your-seat drama and massive significance, it's one of the best matches, for sure. Definitely a Wimbledon classic.

What's your top 5?

 

[FHtennisman]

Jesus. Anderson took two sets off him in 2015.

Don't hurt yourself with the hyperbole.

Did you see the match?

Best to not comment then.

 

[MatsPhilander]

Jesus. Anderson took two sets off him in 2015.

Don't hurt yourself with the hyperbole.

He had an off day.

 

[Mr Feeny]

His BH DTL has been quasi AWOL since 2011. It's really overrated in that it's talked about as if it's perpetually at the Rome 2011 level when it's not.

Since 2011, it has been a somewhat rare sight and thankfully for him it isn't needed to win.

Hmmm...maybe my memory is cloudy. I'm thinking back to the 2011 US open, especially and maybe that's given me a distorted view of reality.

 

[BringBackWood]

His BH DTL has been quasi AWOL since 2011. It's really overrated in that it's talked about as if it's perpetually at the Rome 2011 level when it's not.

Since 2011, it has been a somewhat rare sight and thankfully for him it isn't needed to win.

Bang on the money. He actually uses the big DTL BH generally more against Nadal than against others. The Nadal FH DTL started punishing the overuse of the CC BH; when Novak went DTL even with more margin it proved to be very effective.
Novak's greatest strength imo is not changing direction on both wings as the commentators often say, but the consistent depth he can get. He is changing direction usually when he is running around his BH to hit a DTL FH, and he also changes direction easily on his FH wing.

The quality of the match was very high. Nadal's play was much more impressive than against Novak at his 'peak'. It was highly entertaining seeing him go for his BH & rush the net. If we discard aces, Novak hit about 50 winners, Nadal about 65.
Judging quality on both sides, which Djokodal match was better than this one?

 

[Antonio Puente]

Did you see the match?

Best to not comment then.

Perhaps you didn't read what I was responding to. The poster was essentially saying 2015 peak Wimbledon Djoker was unplayable. I don't care how well Kevin Anderson is serving, he does not take an "unplayable" grass court player to 7-5 in the 5th.

 

[FHtennisman]

Perhaps you didn't read what I was responding to. The poster was essentially saying 2015 peak Wimbledon Djoker was unplayable. I don't care how well Kevin Anderson is serving, he does not take an "unplayable" grass court player to 7-5 in the 5th.

Yeah Novak in 2015 was far from unplayable, Anderson played him tough and Roger had chances to go 2 sets to 0 up (had he not gifted the first set break back).

 

[titoelcolombiano]

That match had everything another epic chapter written in the Rafa Djoker book - the tension, the skills, the mental toughness by both guys - it was insanely good! They knew they were playing for the title.

 

[ChaelAZ]

It was a good match for grass, but not an all-time classic. The Isner/Anderson match was a lot better for tension and back’n forth.


Probably posting from the court between sets.

 

[Julian Houston]

Nadal didnt punish him after hitting a short ball to Djokovic.

Djokovic was quite hesitant to step forward to finish points, would often hit a soft shot back.

 

[van_Loederen]

it's often very hard to judge the quality of a match,
especially when both players perform at a similar level and the match is dramatic and close.
but in this case it was relatively easy as we have watched both players so often.
so OP is spot on.

but the moral of the story is that even subpar Djodal are still the best players in the sport currently.

 

[Ralph]

Djokovic wasn't playing redlining tennis, though. He was far from his best. He was hesitant. His backhand down the line was missing nearly the entire match. I lost count of the number of times he had a point one but was too low on confidence to pull the trigger and instead went cross Court to Nadal's forehand.

He's played tons of better matches and he will be in better form by the US open. That wasn't Novak at his best and yet he still pulled through, as the OP said. It's going to be scary when he does get back to his usual level.

Yes, this especially, as I kept shouting at the screen each time he didn't go down the line.

 

[FatFedererFanTurnsSlim]

I'm somewhat skeptical about Wapha's grass form. He did a lot of good things. Big serves, coming in regularly even on 50/50 approaches (usually he won't unless it's a sure-shot finish at the net) etc but he wasn't tested at all until the QFs and needed 5 sets against DelPo, who last made a grass semi at WIM 5 years ago and a grand total of just 3 grass SFs his entire career. This despite almost everything tailor-made for him: hot conditions, glay (yes I know the roof was closed but still....).

And the SF. Djokovic is still some ways off both physically & mentally from his best and still couldn't finish him off. Great credit to him for making it so exceptionally competitive though.

Next year he'll be 33. Will he still have enough in the tank after a gruelling clay season to do some damage at Wimbledon? The good news is that Fedr will be 38-, never know what state of mind Djokovic will be in, and best of all there is the worst tennis generation ever who are simply happy to wait for all the geriatrics to retire instead of going for their throats.

 

[Sport]

Djokovic wasn't playing redlining tennis, though. He was far from his best. He was hesitant. His backhand down the line was missing nearly the entire match. I lost count of the number of times he had a point one but was too low on confidence to pull the trigger and instead went cross Court to Nadal's forehand.

He's played tons of better matches and he will be in better form by the US open. That wasn't Novak at his best and yet he still pulled through, as the OP said. It's going to be scary when he does get back to his usual level.

I'm not knocking Djokovic. I'm actually saying he has played way better than that in the past and he will play better than that in the future.

Djokovic was at his best, but Nadal was so good that he didn't let him win in less than 5 close sets. Peak Djokovic also has had 5 sets matches against Nadal (A0 2012) or even has lost (USO 2013).

 

[Mr Feeny]

Djokovic was at his best, but Nadal was so good that he didn't let him win in less than 5 close sets. Peak Djokovic also has had 5 sets matches against Nadal (A0 2012) or even has lost (USO 2013).

Nah. Djokovic was nowhere near his best. He still beat Nadal because Nadal isn't the most imposing grass court player.

 

[Julian Houston]

Agreed this MU is quite overrated. They prevent from ending points and it turns into a fitness training session.

Nadal is Djokovic's fitness coach, vice versa.

 

[DMP]

I agree. It was competitively great and tested both players' mental resolve. Probably the best men's match of this Wimbledon. But...

Djokovic was hitting a lot of balls short, and nowhere near painting the lines (especially the backhand) as consistently as he did when at his peak. The Nadal of ten years ago would have been all over those short returns. But Nadal isn't the player he was either.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Overall, from start to finish, it was a better match than Wimbledon 2008, and easily better than 2017 AO, but will never achieve the same notoriety because it's not Fedal.

Better than AO 17, of course - that final was only really epic in the fifth. Wim 08, though, don't think so besides the fifth set. Seemed that way because of longer rallies, but that has some part (not all) to do with weaker serving and the reluctance to hit more aggressively. 5th was excellent, though, almost until the very end.

 

[pikku05]

Nadal was the better player. Novak was good at saving BP's in the fifth set though. Peak Novak would have won the match in four

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

What's your top 5?

I'm likely missing some amazeballs early round matches I've never seen - naturally - of the late rounds, I was thinking of RG 11 Djokerer (one of the best four-setters ever, amirite?), AO 13 & 14 Djokorinka (both matches had some dips, but for the most part the baselinery was stupendous, maybe I'm biased but I love those matches) and Wim 15 Wawr-Gasquet (a forgotten jem, the backhand exchanges were so juicy). This Djokodal epic rounds up the set nicely, I suppose.

 

[tennisaddict]

Nadal was the better player in the rallies. Unfortunately he does not have a serve that can bail him out of tough situations time and again, even though he served quite admirably on Sunday. Novak did not have answers to the body serves at all.

 

[BringBackWood]

The thing that lets it down was that there was a fair amount of choking on big points, paticularly Nadal, but Novak was also dumping makeable returns on break points. I can say though I think it is their best match, and it will probably stay that way.

 

[NatF]

I'm likely missing some amazeballs early round matches I've never seen - naturally - of the late rounds, I was thinking of RG 11 Djokerer (one of the best four-setters ever, amirite?), AO 13 & 14 Djokorinka (both matches had some dips, but for the most part the baselinery was stupendous, maybe I'm biased but I love those matches) and Wim 15 Wawr-Gasquet (a forgotten jem, the backhand exchanges were so juicy). This Djokodal epic rounds up the set nicely, I suppose.

Wawa-Gasquet at Wimbledon over their match at the FO in 2013?

What about Del Potro vs Djokovic in 2013 at Wimbledon?

 

[metsman]

Similar to the 17 AO final. Neither guy close to their peak, numerous balls dropping short. I mean Nadal was on the ropes against Delpo ON GRASS who has no BH and is slow as a sloth these days. Djokovic was losing sets to absolute MUGS. Then all of a sudden these two get together, grind back and forth for a few hours, hit some cool serves and it's the greatest match ever. Of course due to the CRAPOLA era we are currently in, both guys looked like gods because these days, two half decent players playing well in the same match is a blue moon occurrence, and everyone goes absolutely nuts over it and praises it as the greatest thing since sliced bread. This type of thing was common back in the day between Pete/Goran or Pete/Andre with actual CONTRAST in styles and surface specific games leading to high quality, but everyone poo poos that era. I wonder why....Anything to prop up the myth of this 'golden era'

Fed of course, was nowhere to be found when the competition was even marginally tougher than Cilic and Berdych, couldn't handle the heat vs freakin Anderson ROFLMAO. Seems more and more like 17 AO was a total fluke and if Rafa didn't play the 2nd semi he would have lost that too.

 

[Le Master]

When it comes to ground strokes, it doesn't get much better quality than the points Nadal and Djokovic get into. Lots of good angles with a lot of great ball chasing. But I don't think it's very high quality, intelligent tennis. Most of the time, it's a battle of consistency -- waiting for the error or waiting for the opening. There's little variety and little quality point construction.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Wawa-Gasquet at Wimbledon over their match at the FO in 2013?

What about Del Potro vs Djokovic in 2013 at Wimbledon?

I knew I forgot something! Referring to the latter, that. Have only watched highlights of the former, so can't tell. I did say 'borderline' top 5, heh.

 

[NatF]

I knew I forgot something! Referring to the latter, that. Have only watched highlights of the former, so can't tell. I did say 'borderline' top 5, heh.

I have both maybe I'll upload them.

 

[Meles]

I have seen some comments to suggest the Djokovic Nadal match was one of the highest quality ever.

To me Nadal looked impressive but I felt Djokovic was often at a level well below his best quality. His returns were nowhere near his peak, and he had a few really off returns in key points in the 2nd and 3rd sets. I felt that he was off in the 2nd set, and good not great in the 3rd set, but yes he did really lift impressively for the tie break and Nadal was good in the tie break as well. I thought Djokovic was passive in the 4th set as well.

I'm not saying this to be down on Djokovic. It's more that I know how much talent he has and I expect a lot of him. It is a compliment to him in a way that I think he was not so great but still got the better of Nadal. I expect Djokovic is going to get a lot better from here and likely to have a good run against Nadal. It just seems to be a good match up and he has a massive edge in the serve/return match up. It will be troubling for Nadal that it felt like it was hard for Nadal to do a lot better but I see Djokovic has having huge room for improvement.

Overall Djokovic himself fancied this as a near peak performance and why not?; his first serve performance was vastly superior to anything he did from 2012 to 2015.

Undeniably, your eye test is correct on his ground game, but overall your analysis is a failure due to your failure to consult the statistics which are best for verifying serve.

Oh and of course you fail to note Nadal's massively improved 2nd serve. This was a big match, but Djokovic has even more to come in the next year with higher level as he regains his full fitness.

 

[Meles]

Similar to the 17 AO final. Neither guy close to their peak, numerous balls dropping short. I mean Nadal was on the ropes against Delpo ON GRASS who has no BH and is slow as a sloth these days. Djokovic was losing sets to absolute MUGS. Then all of a sudden these two get together, grind back and forth for a few hours, hit some cool serves and it's the greatest match ever. Of course due to the CRAPOLA era we are currently in, both guys looked like gods because these days, two half decent players playing well in the same match is a blue moon occurrence, and everyone goes absolutely nuts over it and praises it as the greatest thing since sliced bread. This type of thing was common back in the day between Pete/Goran or Pete/Andre with actual CONTRAST in styles and surface specific games leading to high quality, but everyone poo poos that era. I wonder why....Anything to prop up the myth of this 'golden era'

Fed of course, was nowhere to be found when the competition was even marginally tougher than Cilic and Berdych, couldn't handle the heat vs freakin Anderson ROFLMAO. Seems more and more like 17 AO was a total fluke and if Rafa didn't play the 2nd semi he would have lost that too.

You're goating and won't even reply just like the master. Always wanted to know from the master about the greatness of 90's Clay....

 

[sarmpas]

It was a great match.

But it's obvious that Djok was hardly 2015 level - and to be fair Nads wasn't exactly 2008 level either.
Still the match of the tournament.

I'd still add Nadal was far closer much closer to the best he can be at his current age than Djokovic who is still recovering from whatever problems he had in the past 12+ months.