Does anyone use SABR?

[atp2015]

Does anyone use SABR (Sneak Attack By Roger) while returning serves? How often? Is it only on second serves? Most likely depends on the server?? What's your success rate? How did you improve or decide to stop using it? For me it works 1 out 2 against traditional players because they don't know what to do when they see someone picking up the ball half-volley while trying to recover from serving. The hack types don't get flustered with it and somehow manage to nullify the SABR advantage by lob or other traditional/non traditional shots. In summary SABR works (for me) if the opponent is a traditional/regular player and the serve is not too hot.

 

[PittsburghDad]

The SABR I've been seeing lately from the rec warriors is laugh track good. It's bunting a slow serve. Then they yell SABR!!".

 

[RudyHuxtable]

I toss a few in every set to feel as one with Rogi

 

[GuyClinch]

SABR is only unusual if you are playing against good servers. Rec players that I play serve like 40MPH - so its natural and normal to come in after the return..

It's not that Roger was doing anything unusual - it was unusual to do that against pro servers. Against rec servers ...meh. Some guys can't serve at all.

 

[atp2015]

SABR is only unusual if you are playing against good servers. Rec players that I play serve like 40MPH - so its natural and normal to come in after the return..

It's not that Roger was doing anything unusual - it was unusual to do that against pro servers. Against rec servers ...meh. Some guys can't serve at all.

Right, but 40PMH serves are not picked up as a half-volley. You got to be near the service line to get to it as a regular shot - unless the ball is a line kisser.

 

[ChaelAZ]

We had a guy we called Vegas Pete (We think he was a bag man for the mafia. He drove a KIA and set us all up in a penthouse suite at Caesars in Vegas, and every where we went it was "Mr. XXXXX, good to see you.") He was 68 years old and he returned every serve standing inside the baseline and moving forward. I think Fed saw him play and stole it.

 

[GuyClinch]

Again. Against the rec players i play - you can do that kind of thing all the time. A half-volley is still just a groundstroke in the end. What makes Roger great is he can do it against professional guys hitting kick serves. For the people I play against I honestly feel you have no choice but to do this. The serve can be so slow that you would have to BACKUP after hitting it otherwise..

 

[SinjinCooper]

Yes, but everyone I play with still just calls it chip and charge. Used to be pretty common in decades when players still volleyed.

 

[atp2015]

Yes, but everyone I play with still just calls it chip and charge. Used to be pretty common in decades when players still volleyed.

Minor difference I think - chip and charge, the ball is picked up at the top of the bounce or on the way down. SABR is unique in the sense, the ball is picked up as a half-volley? The half-volley is a different shot than a regular groundie with a different follow-through etc??

 

[LeeD]

My topspin return's aren't good, so I chip and charge with underspin all the time.
My groundies aren't good, so staying at the baseline is a losing prospect.

 

[kingp1ng]

SABR at the pro tour is probably completely different than SABR at the amateur level. In the pro tour, second serves are coming so fast that Roger's SABR has loads of pace on it without even swinging.

I do fast chip and charge sometimes, but my "SABR" balls have no where close to the surprise attack pace that Roger puts on it. If some guy has a floaty kick serve, I might as well step forward and just take a full swing on the rise. Some of you guys who play up at the 5.0 level may have a different experience. I'm not that good

 

[LeeD]

Skill level's are relatively the same between ATP and 4.0, if you're talking SABR. At 4.0, you face and handle serves around 100 flats, 75 seconds. That is your comfort zone. At ATP levels, you face and handle serves around 140 flats, 100 seconds. So relatively, it's the same.

 

[Gazelle]

I've tried it an apparently I'm just incapable of taking returns that early. Even against slow serves.

 

[tennis4me]

Not quite a SABR, but I know a 4.0 guy who stands about a foot behind service line. He does that for the most part, except against some really good/hard servers. He's able to play like this against many 4.5 players. He's mostly using the speed of the serve and mostly half-volley his returns. Fast body serve and slow, no-pace kicker gives him the most trouble.

Slightly OT, but just as weird as SABR ...
There's another guy who squats half way between base line and service line. When the opponent tosses the ball up, then he gets up, gets ready and moves forward a bit. Don't know whether he's doing this to taunt the other player, or as he puts it, it helps him "bend his legs and stay low". He's a low 5.0 player.

 

[LeeD]

Not quite a SABR, but I know a 4.0 guy who stands about a foot behind service line. He does that for the most part, except against some really good/hard servers. He's able to play like this against many 4.5 players. He's mostly using the speed of the serve and mostly half-volley his returns. Fast body serve and slow, no-pace kicker gives him the most trouble.

Slightly OT, but just as weird as SABR ...
There's another guy who squats half way between base line and service line. When the opponent tosses the ball up, then he gets up, gets ready and moves forward a bit. Don't know whether he's doing this to taunt the other player, or as he puts it, it helps him "bend his legs and stay low". He's a low 5.0 player.

Yup, I play against a couple of great volleyer's who stand mid service box to return 4.0 level serves. You mentioned the counter, which is correct, of course.
And I"ve played with a 4.5 who used mid service box positioning against weaker serves, but for some reason, did not stand there against me when I was on the opposing team.

 

[GuyClinch]

SABR at the pro tour is probably completely different than SABR at the amateur level. In the pro tour, second serves are coming so fast that Roger's SABR has loads of pace on it without even swinging.

Agree. SABR might be special for the pro tour - but ordinary for ordinary players. Only if a player is facing someone with good serve is a SABR special..

 

[Shroud]

I love it and do use it a decent amount. Love doing it on 1st serves too. Keep the dude guessing!!!

Used it against @nytennisaddict. Lol. After the 1st time where iirc i hit the return just wide he said, "did you just SABR me?" His tone sounded like i cut him off in traffic and flipped him the bird.

Not exactly SABR but on 2nd serves sometimes i line up a foot from the service line to mess with them

 

[ptuanminh]

If its easy enough to chip and charge at, why not take a swing at it? At least for the level I am t

 

[LeeD]

If its easy enough to chip and charge at, why not take a swing at it? At least for the level I am t

Lower percentage?
If you're attacking, you'd better get your shot IN, before anything else.
Taking swing reduces percentage, since you're closer in, and possibly moving forwards when you hit your shot.

 

[SinjinCooper]

If its easy enough to chip and charge at, why not take a swing at it? At least for the level I am t

Don't make the mistake of thinking one is objectively better than the other. They're different strategies requiring different skills, and lead to different follow ups, also requiring different skills.

90 mph groundies @ 3500 rpm may have rendered the play obsolete in the ATP, but those numbers are pure mythology at amateur levels, no matter what you read.

 

[LeeD]

Most of Fed's SABR attempts are closer to 70 mph and 1,500 rpm's.

 

[ptuanminh]

If the 2nd serve has high kick, decent pace to your weak side, no SABR is gonna save you. Id say SABR is more of a mental weapon rather than a shot that you can go to again and again and expect good results.

 

[LeeD]

Worse case scenario, you can always high volley (stroke of course, you have to allow for a bounce) those high bouncing serves and move to net position.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Yes, but everyone I play with still just calls it chip and charge. Used to be pretty common in decades when players still volleyed.

The old chip and charge was a different beast. Most of the forward movement happened after contacting the ball (ROS). For the SABR, Roger comes quite far in during the toss and the upward swing of the server, I believe.

 

[LeeD]

Yeah, I always thought SABR is a flat or topspin abreviated groundstroke, while chip and charge is the underspin volley stroke used to approach net position.

 

[chikoo]

Yeah, I always thought SABR is a flat or topspin abreviated groundstroke, while chip and charge is the underspin volley stroke used to approach net position.

It is just a zero effort nudge/push the ball over the net - on the rise. It is all about anticipating where the serve is going to land.

 

[LeeD]

I'd think, if Fed "nudged/pushed" the ball with Kyrgios serving, Fed would be eating tennis balls for a month.

 

[chikoo]

I'd think, if Fed "nudged/pushed" the ball with Kyrgios serving, Fed would be eating tennis balls for a month.

Why do people assume a strong serve requires an equally strong return?

 

[10isMaestro]

I do it sometimes, especially when the server hits big and flat. I try to put the ball deep enough and usually get a poor reply.

 

[LeeD]

Why do people assume a strong serve requires an equally strong return?

Did you know SABR is actually an APPROACH shot, hit off the serve?
If you approach with a soft no effort dink, what do you think the server will do to your weak sitter ball?

 

[chikoo]

Did you know SABR is actually an APPROACH shot, hit off the serve?
If you approach with a soft no effort dink, what do you think the server will do to your weak sitter ball?

No wonder u suck . It is not the power, but the placement that makes the SABR effective.

 

[LeeD]

No wonder u suck . It is not the power, but the placement that makes the SABR effective.

Well, maybe in your circle of tennis, a well placed no effort dink that is hit soft does a very effective job, but not in my circle of tennis.
Of course, in my circle of tennis, the hardest hit shot is still nothing compared to ATP level shots, so it's all relative, isn't it?

 

[chikoo]

Well, maybe in your circle of tennis, a well placed no effort dink that is hit soft does a very effective job, but not in my circle of tennis.
Of course, in my circle of tennis, the hardest hit shot is still nothing compared to ATP level shots, so it's all relative, isn't it?

Ah... u belong to the Nadal group I see.

I belong to the Fed group. Naturally.

 

[LeeD]

I belong to the 4.0 group, obviously, you think you play like the guy wearing the TENNIS shirt group.

 

[chikoo]

I belong to the 4.0 group, obviously, you think you play like the guy wearing the TENNIS shirt group.

eh? I aim to play strategically, not PoMo big banger style.

 

[LeeD]

I'd love to play first strike, big banger tennis, but I can't. I just don't have the power.
So I"m going to settle to play like a pusher.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

My topspin return's aren't good, so I chip and charge with underspin all the time.
My groundies aren't good, so staying at the baseline is a losing prospect.

Preach it, brother!

 

[chikoo]

I'd love to play first strike, big banger tennis, but I can't. I just don't have the power.
So I"m going to settle to play like a pusher.

ah... so that is the pain I hear in your opinion about a soft well placed shot by a world #1 player

 

[kingp1ng]

This b*tching argument is irrelevant because in my opinion: "SABR at the pro tour is probably completely different than SABR at the amateur level. In the pro tour, second serves are coming so fast that Roger's SABR has loads of pace on it without even swinging."

If a pro hits an 80-90 mph second serve, we can 100% assume that the returner is also a pro. That means a strong body, in-tuned muscles, and excellent technique. Of course it looks like Federer bumps/nudges the ball on a SABR shot... but Federer's body is so much in-tuned over an amateur's body. He has lots of lean muscle with explosive twitch reaction. Also, Federer obviously harnesses the energy from the server.

 

[GuyClinch]

.. but Federer's body is so much in-tuned over an amateur's body. He has lots of lean muscle with explosive twitch reaction. Also, Federer obviously harnesses the energy from the server.

No. You really can block back a good second server like Fed does - taking the ball on the rise and putting very little effort into it.

Its not some magic where he is 'secretly' hitting the ball very hard - its a finesse/timing shot for him and you or me..

But for amateurs - well depending on who is serving - it needs alot less finesse/timing because the serve is MUCH slower. Even when amateurs can hit a nice second serve - they often do not out of fear..

The old saw is that you hit your second with the same swing speed as your first but I have only seen 4.5+ guys doing that in actual match type situations..

...

anyway if you want to get technical the major difference between Fed "SABR" and amateur one..

1) Fed sneaks in. You can execute pretty much the same play just by STAYING in. No sneak is needed if the incoming serve is slow.

2) Fed returns the serve 'on the rise' with very little effort. If the incoming serve is slow enough this is easier - ball is coming in slower - needs less timing. But you might need more power. You cannot rely as much on incoming serve speed - as there might not be any..

 

[kingp1ng]

People were arguing whether it was the power or placement/finesse of the SABR that mattered.

I'm saying it's both in the pro tour. But in most people's amateur leagues, if the serve is slower you might as well step up and take a healthy short swing. If the serve is strong then commence with half volleying. Use power when necessary, use finesse when necessary. Heck if you're over 5.0 level (or played collegiate level) then more power to you. I'll just shut up...

 

[Shroud]

Sadly i was 0-7 against @nytennisaddict with a mix of slices and drives.

3 at 2:25 and 4 @ 4:22:

I was just lucky he wasnt using his new WETS serve which is indistinguishable from a waiterstray serve