Drop first then swing

[5263]

https://imgur.com/a/1fYbqaW

People treat the “slot position” as a place to “put” the racquet. That is why so many struggle. You may have an idea about where the flip is gonna happen, but if you are trying to determine that and “put” the racquet there, you are doing it wrong.

I don't know where this idea that "placing" the racket in the correct place is wrong. At worst it is probably an early part of the learning curve and at best it is way ahead of people who never find the proper slot relationship.

slot1
/slät/
noun

1. 1.
   a long, narrow lane or slit for something to be inserted.
   
   slit, crack, hole, opening, .......""groove""
   
   
2. 2.
   an allotted place ....."in an arrangement or plan"

 

[5263]

Never mind. It doesn’t work that way in match play anyway. I need something much more repeatable. I’ll try a very compact top spin and if that doesn’t work either I’ll settle on continental everything.

How do you like this young man's swings. He is working on hitting the slot entry earlier in his Draw swing, but the swing is pretty nice in his Fade Drives.

 

[ballmachineguy]

I don't know where this idea that "placing" the racket in the correct place is wrong. At worst it is probably an early part of the learning curve and at best it is way ahead of people who never find the proper slot relationship.

slot1
/slät/
noun

1. 1.
   a long, narrow lane or slit for something to be inserted.
   
   slit, crack, hole, opening, .......""groove""
   
   
2. 2.
   an allotted place ....."in an arrangement or plan"

There’s no arrangement or plan for where the racquet is at that point (racquet flips, but cap toward target). Again, it is making a destination out of a waypoint in the swing. An invitation to disjoint the stroke. Ask the people in here that try to find the slot position how they are faring with their forehand.

 

[5263]

There’s no arrangement or plan for where the racquet is at that point (racquet flips, but cap toward target). Again, it is making a destination out of a waypoint in the swing. An invitation to disjoint the stroke. Ask the people in here that try to find the slot position how they are faring with their forehand.

well learning from words is always a challenge, but with a demo and using the "Swivel" in place of the old flip from a big C it can be taught quite easily. You can literally just place the racket at the proper slot entry and go from there to do quite well. I hold the racket tip at slot entry and let them feel that position and the let them pull it from my fingers to hit a dropped ball so they can feel that Drag from the Lag at slot entry, into contact.

 

[Dragy]

There’s no arrangement or plan for where the racquet is at that point (racquet flips, but cap toward target). Again, it is making a destination out of a waypoint in the swing. An invitation to disjoint the stroke. Ask the people in here that try to find the slot position how they are faring with their forehand.

The correct slot idea comes from the need to pull or drag it. And also the “proper slot” idea marries the drag part (buttcap forward) with aligning the swing: proper height and direction instead of just buttcap to ball from whatever spot, too high, too low, too wide or tucked into ribcage…

No, you need to drag the racquet towards the ball from/through optimal slot (narrow lane or slit) achieving optimal approach trajectory.

Now to drag it from that slot, you need to find/enter it first. So yes, putting something into slot sounds dangerous for developing proper technique, but entering it, or finding it, as you go from proper prep — this sounds right to me.

 

[Fintft]

If I don’t control the point, he gets me on the ropes. Hits hard and to corners.

The former might have something to do with you:

1. Not moving well
2. Not finishing the point

The latter, I just didn't see it at all in that first vid.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Dragy, it sounds like you are talking about the amount of topspin and the direction you want to hit the ball. Where the racquet “flips” will be affected by that for sure. It is already on its way to contact by then.

The thought of thinking of pulling the racquet through a “lane” is not a good one. Again, the racquet is heading to contact just before the flip even happens. The flip is caused by the effort to make spin, it has nothing to do with the rotation or the move to contact. The rotation is what makes the racquet head continue lag behind until the contact point though.

 

[Dragy]

Again, the racquet is heading to contact just before the flip even happens.

“Flip” by definition is quite significant turn. So that is going from tip pointing to one side to tip pointing to other side. I believe it’s not what actually happens in one move in modern forehand. I also prefer the term “swivel” as introduced by Chuk Tomlin @5263.

So again, I’m quite sure they first swivel to enter the slot, together with drop, and then they proceed to major acceleration, where torso rotates rapidly, arm gets carried along, and racquet head achieves maximum lag.

For sure good players connect it all together, the only stop/slow down may occur at the top of takeback — arm and racquet far back and high, before the drop. Then every phase is smoothly sequencing one another, and that’s what made early observers call it “flip” as one single motion, coming from pat-the-dog (or whatever similar motion) into full lag/lay back — that famous Fed/Nadal pictures.

There’s a clear benefit of distinguishing drop, entering the slow with swivel, and major acceleration phase, when learning/correcting technique. Even if further on you’ll be perceiving it as some united motion, just drop and swing…

For me right now, there’s also much sense in “setting the blade” idea by @5263, which is strongly related to understanding dynamic slot. It allows to vary how thin or not the contact will be, shape and height of trajectory, keeping in mind court position (closer or farther back, angles) and intention: dip it against net rusher or send high and heavy against a baseliner, for example.

 

[Dragy]

The former might have something to do with you:

1. Not moving well
2. Not finishing the point

The latter, I just didn't see it at all in that first vid.

I’m hitting more of finishes now, a year later.

But against this guy it’s still not prime tactics. No need to fight fire with fire. I’m better off defending, eliciting an error or a short ball. These dynamics may not be witnessed behind overall randomness and UEs in the video, but when you are inside and for several sessions in a row, you feel it.

I must say I have that feeling when you post this, like “I cannot remember seeing your videos”. Have you actually filmed yourself?

On many rec videos where there are many winners and “finished” points I cannot help but get shocked how they are completely unwilling to defend, move, get to balls…

So I’m very careful to not straight doubt what you usually post about your game, but humbly asking if you can show it? Very interested.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

I can never make it through any of these videos. Struggled to get almost halfway through. No wonder no one can learn anything. There’s not even such a thing as the “slot” position. I wonder how people that become tour pros learn the fh if no one knows how to even teach it?

There's no slot position?

 

[5263]

Dragy, it sounds like you are talking about the amount of topspin and the direction you want to hit the ball. Where the racquet “flips” will be affected by that for sure. It is already on its way to contact by then.

The thought of thinking of pulling the racquet through a “lane” is not a good one. Again, the racquet is heading to contact just before the flip even happens. The flip is caused by the effort to make spin, it has nothing to do with the rotation or the move to contact. The rotation is what makes the racquet head continue lag behind until the contact point though.

where did you get this definition of flip? B. Gordon and maybe others before him described the flip is the move where the big C take back flips down into the slot entry, but you seem to be talking about something to create spin action on the ball like radical divination or WW action. Not saying you are wrong, but just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Myself, I prefer the swivel to slot entry method and find if far superior to the Flip slot entry.

 

[5263]

There's no slot position?

lol, of course there is. He seems to think that if you don't hit the slot in the way he does, then you are doing it wrong and his way is not knowing to hit the slot, but just hitting it by doing other things right ( I guess those right things do exist) and even pretending the slot isn't there even though it is fairly well known and described. But in reality, getting to the slot in a less than optimal way doesn't mean it doesn't exist just as his way of hitting the slot doesn't mean it doesn't exist either.... not sure how he gets there if there is not one to get to....

 

[ballmachineguy]

Flip/swivel, I’ve used both. It is the result of the effort to create topspin.

 

[Curious]

How do you like this young man's swings. He is working on hitting the slot entry earlier in his Draw swing, but the swing is pretty nice in his Fade Drives.

Thanks, Chuck. Trying to create true top spin on all balls is a mistake of mine. I should use draw and fade more often depending on the ball.

 

[AnyPUG]

Does BMG have forehand with a continuous loop in mind and 5263's demo has a distinct pause in the slot position before the forward swing?
I'm not sure what exactly they disagree on...

 

[zill]

Thanks, Chuck. Trying to create true top spin on all balls is a mistake of mine. I should use draw and fade more often depending on the ball.

Forget all your past ideas and just listen and try the method and techniques of Chuck @5263 for a while. See how you go.

 

[Rosstour]

Not gonna lie I sorta wish this dude was in the US so he could hit with more of us

 

[socallefty]

These days, you have pros with the WTA FH, Modern ATP FH (Big 3 style) and the Nextgen ATP FH (Kyrgios, Tiafoe, Sock etc.). They all have different takebacks and therefore get to the slot in different ways and with different timings. Depending on the FH style you have, adopt the textbook timing and swing path for that. I see some confusion between those thinking of the Modern ATP style and the NextGen ATP style with videos of both posted and argued about.

 

[AnyPUG]

Not gonna lie I sorta wish this dude was in the US so he could hit with more of us

With all due respect, you would like to hit with a dude who takes 50 years to build a basic forehand swing? it took me only 47

 

[Rosstour]

With all due respect, you would like to hit with a dude who takes 50 years to build a basic forehand swing? it took me only 47

I'm 43 and experimenting with my service motion. lol

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

With all due respect, you would like to hit with a dude who takes 50 years to build a basic forehand swing? it took me only 47

47 years! Mad respect due.

 

[ChaelAZ]

This should wake @ballmachineguy up

I thought you were all about just taking it back right to the slot now? So no drop needed.

 

[Curious]

I thought you were all about just taking it back right to the slot now? So no drop needed.

That’s old news, mate!
No need for any distraction to my footwork project now.
Chapter two, episode one:
Fast first move drills to and from the ball.

 

[Fintft]

That’s old news, mate!
No need for any distraction to my footwork project now.
Chapter two, episode one:
Fast first move drills to and from the ball.

Do you SS? Bouncy much?

 

[Curious]

Do you SS? Bouncy much?

More subtle like Djoker’s. Don’t know how people time a big hop.

 

[Fintft]

More subtle like Djoker’s. Don’t know how people time a big hop.

Big hop no good. Been guilty of that.