Effect of long matches - is it any proof of doping?

[mariecon]

Actually it was a more amazing example of stamina by Federer because he played three consecutive days, a 3 h QF, a 3 h SF and a 5 h final, in three consecutive days. That beats anything Djokovic has done so far (because it is not the same playing after 48 hours than playing in consecutive days).

I still think 5 hours with a day break in between is more tiring than 3 hours with play 24-30 hours later. If you look at the way Djoker plays, stretching his body like Gumby that would take it's toll. The guy should be seriously suffering the next day. I'm convinced he will be in a wheelchair by the time he's 50. Federer is much smoother on court and doesn't abuse his body the way ND does.

 

[dudeski]

Federer lost the 2006 Rome final to Nadal. And his previous two matches weren't 5 setters, they were both 3 sets. There's a difference and yes, Federer was in his prime but he still lost. I wouldn't call that super stamina.

Yes, Federer lost but not because he run out of energy. He was doing quite well in that 5 set, was up 4-1. Had two match points and he made two dumb errors. Also, he played 3 set Q (7-5 in the 3rd) and 3 set S (7-6 in the 3rd) and then over 5 hour 5 set final on consecutive days and 6 matches in total in one week. Federer was amazing that year which is expected given that he was at his peak physically and he is the undisputed GOAT after all. Even more incredible was that he was able to play and win Hale few days days after FO final. At Hale he played 5 matches, last 4 of those being 3 setters.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Roger-Federer.aspx?t=pa&y=2006&m=s&e=0#

 

[mattennis]

Just another example off the top of my head: Kuerten won three consecutive gruelling five sets matches against Muster, Medveded and Kafelnikov in 1997 Roland Garros and he ended up winning the title defeating Bruguera (so he beat 1995 RG champion Muster, 1996 RG Champion Kafelnikov and 1993 and 1994 RG champion Bruguera in his way to the title, and Medveded was a great clay court player of course).

 

[AM95]

A number of people here have started calling Novak 'Lance' after his seemingly quick recovery after the Stan match. If recovery after a grueling match is true evidence of something illicit, then what do the performances of the following players say about them possibly doping?

Nadal vs Federer after his grueling semi vs Verdasco AO 2009
Fed vs Murray after Fed's tough silver win over JMDP 2012 Olympics

Any other examples of players who were affected/ not affected following a tough, long match that either implicates or exonerates them?

this makes no sense.

federer was thrashed, he didnt recover. so this can't be proof of doping.

 

[Andyroddickfan]

For Federer I guess 2006 Rome would be an example of super stamina. He had 3 very long matches Q,S,F back to back. Of course he was in his physical peak that whole year unlike 2005 teenage Nadal who went from zero to super hero in a span of few weeks.

Does anyone take what you say seriously? How can you hate nadal that much? Your posts are pretty ridiculous.

 

[nikdom]

this makes no sense.

federer was thrashed, he didnt recover. so this can't be proof of doping.

I didn't say it was. Read carefully and see what I'm implying.

 

[tennis_badger]

Sure but that was the case for years and it still didn't mean that players weren't exhausted.

they're tired but not exhausted, 1 day rest is enough. thats what separates the top from the rest. they're prepared for this
pretty sure a while back i read in here where fed trains in dubai under the hot sun and he has to rotate the hitting partners because they cant keep up with him.

also when jim interviewed fed, he said that he train for these situation, seven 5 set match back to back if he has to. so if fed trains for these situation then i'm sure the rest of them do the same, nadal is prob more extreme

 

[xan]

well whatever, i give up. beleive what you will.

 

[Elite]

I hate it when people bring up doping. Not because it's necessarily not true, but the thought of Djokovic, Nadal or any other freakish athlete using performance enhancing drugs makes my blood boil.

 

[90's Clay]

I find it difficult to believe it would even be possibly NOT to dope and be a top player today.. The game has gotten so much more physically demanding, it would be almost impossible. Especially when you consider these guys can keep a high level from one match to the next with long HOURS of grinding tennis with points that seemingly never end.

You would have a hard time convincing me that any of Fed (especially this guy considering his age and how he never misses any significant time or even slams for that matter for a good decade), Nadal, Nole or Murray aren't doing something

Its not normal to be able to keep going year round with long grinding hours and hours of tennis, playing the way they do and not have serious physical letdowns from one match to the next.. Especialy when a lot of those big matches go the distance and sometimes there is very little rest in between them

I think there should be a full length investigation into this sport. You mean to tell me there isn't enough "probable cause" out there to do so? (6 hour grindfests and 100 percent ready to go physically for the next match, 30 plus year olds playing like their in their 20s still physically) You would have to be a complete naive idiot to think otherwise

Heck, these guys are out there playing 5-6 hour pusher grindfests and a 24 hour turn around to the next 5-6 hour grindfest and it likes they never miss a beat.

 

[Elite]

I find it difficult to believe it would even be possibly NOT to dope and be a top player today.. The game has gotten so much more physically demanding, it would be almost impossible. Especially when you consider these guys can keep a high level from one match to the next with long HOURS of grinding tennis with points that seemingly never end.

You would have a hard time convincing me that any of Fed (especially this guy considering his age and how he never misses any significant time or even slams for that matter for a good decade), Nadal, Nole or Murray aren't doing something

Its not normal to be able to keep going year round with long grinding hours and hours of tennis, playing the way they do and not have serious physical letdowns from one match to the next.. Especialy when a lot of those big matches go the distance and sometimes there is very little rest in between them

I think there should be a full length investigation into this sport. You mean to tell me there isn't enough "probable cause" out there to do so? You would have to be a complete naive idiot to think otherwise

Heck, these guys are out there playing 5-6 hours and a 24 hour turn around and it likes they never miss a beat.

I am surprised there hasn't been an official investigation yet. Everybody know the physicality of tennis has substantially increased over the last 10 years. The sport also revived in immense popularity during the late 90s/early 2000s, too.

 

[Mick3391]

A number of people here have started calling Novak 'Lance' after his seemingly quick recovery after the Stan match. If recovery after a grueling match is true evidence of something illicit, then what do the performances of the following players say about them possibly doping?

Nadal vs Federer after his grueling semi vs Verdasco AO 2009
Fed vs Murray after Fed's tough silver win over JMDP 2012 Olympics

Any other examples of players who were affected/ not affected following a tough, long match that either implicates or exonerates them?

I don't like accusing anyone of anything, but Djoke does show signs of "Doping". The thing is today in an interview he voluntered information about "Well I do it natural", "I don't do anything unnatural", I mean it was defensive, you don't get defensive usually unless........

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/video/index.html?tabName=interviews

 

[librarysteg]

I don't like accusing anyone of anything, but Djoke does show signs of "Doping". The thing is today in an interview he voluntered information about "Well I do it natural", "I don't do anything unnatural", I mean it was defensive, you don't get defensive usually unless........

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/video/index.html?tabName=interviews

Didn't seem defensive to me, just seemed like he was answering questions asked as best he could.

 

[dyldore]

I don't like accusing anyone of anything, but Djoke does show signs of "Doping". The thing is today in an interview he voluntered information about "Well I do it natural", "I don't do anything unnatural", I mean it was defensive, you don't get defensive usually unless........

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/video/index.html?tabName=interviews

He means he trains in high altitude, so his body creates more red blood cells to better use the small amount of oxygen in the air. When he plays at/near sea level their is more oxygen in the air, but his body is still used to high altitude and still has extra red blood cells, therefore he needs to breath less to get the amount of oxygen his body needs. That is the "natural" way. The "unnatural" way referred to as blood doping is when they give a blood transfusion with blood that has a higher red blood cell count to achieve the same result.

Training at high altitude not only helps during the match when he is exerting himself but it also helps with recovery because his muscles are never starved of oxygen during the match and therefore aren't as sore/tired the next day.

I love how so many people here think that they are better at catching the players that are doping than the ITF. Based on how un-tired they seem on occasion, nonetheless.

 

[Defcon]

I love how so many people here think that they are better at catching the players that are doping than the ITF.

What makes you think the governing bodies are interested in catching the players? Do you realize how much money everyone loses if they expose the top guys?

 

[mariecon]

What makes you think the governing bodies are interested in catching the players? Do you realize how much money everyone loses if they expose the top guys?

EXACTLY!!!

 

[Sid_Vicious]

He means he trains in high altitude, so his body creates more red blood cells to better use the small amount of oxygen in the air. When he plays at/near sea level their is more oxygen in the air, but his body is still used to high altitude and still has extra red blood cells, therefore he needs to breath less to get the amount of oxygen his body needs. That is the "natural" way. The "unnatural" way referred to as blood doping is when they give a blood transfusion with blood that has a higher red blood cell count to achieve the same result.

Training at high altitude not only helps during the match when he is exerting himself but it also helps with recovery because his muscles are never starved of oxygen during the match and therefore aren't as sore/tired the next day.

I love how so many people here think that they are better at catching the players that are doping than the ITF. Based on how un-tired they seem on occasion, nonetheless.

There is a huge difference in the outcome of doing it the "natural" way and the "unnatural" way, though. When you do it the natural way, you get modest and steady improvements. When you do it the unnatural way, you make very strong gains that can elevate you over or the to same level as your rivals.

 

[Towser83]

I think there's a reasonable chance that if someone can get away with it they will. For one, they might figure everyone else is so they might as well too. I don't feel that Federer would have doped in his prime days since he doesn't have a very physical game and didn't have too much need to find something extra, but there days maybe he's getting some help..(although you saw no sign of that in the olympics)

 

[ALL IN]

A number of people here have started calling Novak 'Lance' after his seemingly quick recovery after the Stan match. If recovery after a grueling match is true evidence of something illicit, then what do the performances of the following players say about them possibly doping?

Nadal vs Federer after his grueling semi vs Verdasco AO 2009
Fed vs Murray after Fed's tough silver win over JMDP 2012 Olympics

Any other examples of players who were affected/ not affected following a tough, long match that either implicates or exonerates them?

No. Blood tests and urine tests are evidence of doping. Being a top level athlete in great shape means you work hard and make sacrifices.

 

[mariecon]

I have some nice swampland in Florida if you're interested.

 

[dyldore]

What makes you think the governing bodies are interested in catching the players? Do you realize how much money everyone loses if they expose the top guys?

Then there is no point talking about it. The only concrete evidence for blood doping are blood tests. Since they wont be administered/reported we will never know. But you can speculate all you want based on how many consecutive matches they can play, lol.

To everyone else, if the only way to play as long/hard as djokovic/nadal/whoever is to dope, then they will be serving their suspensions shortly and having their titles revoked.

 

[nikdom]

No. Blood tests and urine tests are evidence of doping. Being a top level athlete in great shape means you work hard and make sacrifices.

How is doping related to this? Are you saying Lance did not work heard or make sacrifices?

Doping gives someone an unfair edge. All athletes, whether they are doping or not, work hard and make sacrifices for their goals. Doping does not take a couch potato and make him/her world champion magically.

 

[Defcon]

Yes, this is like body builders and steroids. Just because they use doesn't mean they don't put in hours in the gym and follow an impossibly strict diet.

 

[The_Order]

Yep Nadal doped in AO09. He knew Verdasco was going to knock Murray out and give him a 5 hour semi so he prepared for that in advance.

 

[kishnabe]

Doping= Winning two 5 set matches in a row

 

[The_Order]

Doping= Winning two 5 set matches in a row

I know it is getting that ridiculous now. Imagine how much Safin doped in AO04 when he had 5 setter against Todd Martin, followed by a 4 setter with Blake (2 of the 4 sets were TB), then had a 5 setter against Roddick and then ANOTHER 5 setter against Agassi :shock: Won all those matches after a long time out.

Truth is these are professional athletes and with technology comes better fitness programs which are put in place. I played two 4 hour matches, two days in a row in 40 degree heat on plexicushion and I was fine. BTW I don't have a CVAC egg.

 

[kishnabe]

I know it is getting that ridiculous now. Imagine how much Safin doped in AO04 when he had 5 setter against Todd Martin, followed by a 4 setter with Blake (2 of the 4 sets were TB), then had a 5 setter against Roddick and then ANOTHER 5 setter against Agassi :shock: Won all those matches after a long time out.

Truth is these are professional athletes and with technology comes better fitness programs which are put in place. I played two 4 hour matches, two days in a row in 40 degree heat on plexicushion and I was fine. BTW I don't have a CVAC egg.

Yeah but you played nobodies....and no mental pressure of Pro tennis. They get more mentally tired....PED can help with that as well.

 

[The_Order]

Yeah but you played nobodies....and no mental pressure of Pro tennis. They get more mentally tired....PED can help with that as well.

Well if you knew the guys I played they never shut up about it when they win so there was a lot of mental pressure to keep them quiet lol.

But anyway, I disagree that PEDs can help with mental pressure.

 

[serengetisunset]

To paraphrase Charlie Francis (Ben Johnson's late coach) "only a dufus would get caught doping with the way testing is done".

BTW Ben was setup

Then how did Johnson get caught? Because he was setup? Why would he be setup and not the others?

 

[Defcon]

BTW I don't have a CVAC egg.

Liar !! :twisted:

 

[oy vey]

nadal going from skinny 17yr old to the hulk that we know and love.

Same with Murray at 17, now the hulk

 

[kishnabe]

Well if you knew the guys I played they never shut up about it when they win so there was a lot of mental pressure to keep them quiet lol.

But anyway, I disagree that PEDs can help with mental pressure.

I know that feeling.....want to shut up the arrogant guys. It better to feed it to them....while beating them in a match.

Mental Pressure...yeah that was BS. It just that I can't believe Tennis Players aren't using drugs when they can mask it so stealth fully.

I bet Federer blood doping as well.....

 

[dyldore]

Same with Murray at 17, now the hulk

what is puberty!?!?!

I worked out constantly from 15-18 and never put on mass. I halfheartedly started again for a couple of months and gained 15ish lbs of muscle...a lot of guys can't put on much mass until they are older. Some start sooner/later than others but it's normal. Plus, to play in the pros nowadays you have to be more muscular, I doubt Murray was even trying to put on muscle before turning pro.

 

[ViscaB]

Does anyone believe Nadal's mysterious 'injury' absences that have happened a few times now.

We will never know the truth unless it comes out well after these guys have retired (like Agassi, Lance, Carl Lewis) but to say that nothing suspicious is going on is frankly very naive.

Nadal and Djoker are the 2 guys who have repeatedly shown miraculous powers of recovery. They are also the 2 who rely on grinding to win and have no problem playing back to back 5hr matches with endless defense.

You can either believe they are superhuman and have discovered magical training routines, but its more likely they have 'magical' doctors.

The beauty of interpretation.

In the same manner -without any proof- I could say it's unnatural if for example a player is in the tennis circuit for so long and never has any real injuries. What would be the involvement of a doctor here in terms of preparation and recovery?

 

[Sri]

Same with Murray at 17, now the hulk

Murray is no where as bulky as Nadal was.