Fed has 10 hard court majors and Nadal 10 clay majors so

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

French Open is for slow people and was built especially for the less skilled tennis players so that they can grind their way to a slam title.

Meanwhile WTF is the barometer for real tennis skill. Only the gifted ones can win it. Nedull has 0 WTF.

Strange since Rafa has been one of the fastest on court

 

[deBroglie]

I saw Thiem Novak this year.
Thiem has some serious power and looks stronger in real life. Nice personality too

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

Hahahaha Thiem and Sasha very popular w the young girls. Big 4 are out of that departement now.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Outside clay Nadal has won:
- 5 slams (2+2+1)
- 8 HC masters
- Reached 2 finals of YEC

The 5 slams are enough to put him in an ATG category or close to it considering he has spent a considerable amount of time at #1 as well and has great chance to reach it this year. Dismissing it as nothing shows your ignorance.

Weeeerk.

 

[NoleFam]

Kyrgios I am holding off on at the moment, because he injured his hip I believe. He was playing some great ball earlier in the year and it was refreshing to see his focus for once, and his match against Federer in Miami was one of the best matches of the year. Thiem has beaten Federer, I understand they can play in Halle again next week in the final, I would really like to see that one.

Yea that match against Federer in Miami was amazing. Yea I like Thiem's game and personality. I would definitely like to see him play Federer in Halle.

 

[NoleFam]

I saw Thiem Novak this year.
Thiem has some serious power and looks stronger in real life. Nice personality too

You saw them at Rome or RG?

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

You saw them at Rome or RG?

RG. Saw Rafa too

 

[NoleFam]

RG. Saw Rafa too

Ahh so lucky.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

Ahh so lucky.

First time there!

 

[Tennease]

Strange since Rafa has been one of the fastest on court

How come he threatened Ramos for giving him time violation warning? Slow as Sloth.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

How come he threatened Ramos for giving him time violation warning? Slow as Sloth.

Oh that thing.
Yeah they should be glad he uses long time between points. Rafa has shortened points drastically, and how dominant he is the final would be done in an hour. The slaughtering would look way worse

 

[RoddickAce]

Because those 10 "hard court" slams are played at two different slams with different conditions (note how djokovic and agassi do better at AO vs USO compared to say Sampras). Also, Fed has 7 Wimbledons. So I guess you could say Fed's slam count is skewed by 3 out of 4 slams, on two types of hardcourts and grass.

 

[NatF]

The most staggering thing about Nadal's 10 FO's isn't simply his level of play on the surface - I do think Federer on HC has reached those highs himself, it's the sheer consistency and longevity of Nadal's reign. The fact he's been able to perform at this level consistently for over 10 years.

 

[Jonas78]

This is the problem that Nadal will now face. Any time he was in trouble, he had a go-to neutralizing rally shot, from which he knew Federer could not hurt him, or could not dictate play from. That is turning into a no fly zone for Nadal recently, so much so, that he changed his tactics to AVOID going into that shot, as crazy as that sounds. As soon as something like that happens, you are in a world of hurt. Nadal cannot use the defensive or rally slice against Federer the way he does against Djokovic, Federer loves the low ball, and would likely step in and smack a backhand flick winner from it.

He will need to vary that serve, lots of body serves, but Federer is picking up those shots more and more from him. The only way I see is for Nadal to become more aggressive than Federer, and that is something he will never be comfortable doing, it is not his natural game. His diminished movement makes him weak to that inside out forehand or cross court backhand into his forehand side, a game play that Djokovic showed the world. I am interested to see how Nadal tries to combat THIS Federer who clearly seems to be mentally free from the shackles that plagued him.

Hel1uva assessment. Any views on the Haas match and what it could tell regarding Wimbledon?

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Hel1uva assessment. Any views on the Haas match and what it could tell regarding Wimbledon?

I wouldn't take anything out of Federer losing that match, he was crisp on serving for the majority, and despite showing rust, which was to be expected, he was overall sharp. Quite simply, just lacked match play and Haas played with nothing to lose free swinging. Haas has a very classical game suited to grass courts. Federer for me is still odds on fav to win Wimbledon, it will be much more harder to get past him in best of five.

 

[Jonas78]

I wouldn't take anything out of Federer losing that match, he was crisp on serving for the majority, and despite showing rust, which was to be expected, he was overall sharp. Quite simply, just lacked match play and Haas played with nothing to lose free swinging. Haas has a very classical game suited to grass courts. Federer for me is still odds on fav to win Wimbledon, it will be much more harder to get past him in best of five.

I pretty much agree. I didnt get to watch the two last sets. What i dont understand is why and when he goes into the anti-BP mode. Just by reading the stats early third set i knew he was going to lose. I mean, he could handle the impossible pressure vs Rafa at AO, but he can't convert BP's vs Haas in Stuttgart??

 

[GabeT]

Didn't someone say that all surfaces are the same now?

 

[Deleted member 77403]

I pretty much agree. I didnt get to watch the two last sets. What i dont understand is why and when he goes into the anti-BP mode. Just by reading the stats early third set i knew he was going to lose. I mean, he could handle the impossible pressure vs Rafa at AO, but he can't convert BP's vs Haas in Stuttgart??

That could just be him now dialling it in for the big events. Again, he has had ten weeks off, that is like a double off season, so match sharpness which also includes clutchness will come back the more he finds himself in those situations.

 

[KINGROGER]

I have to disagree. He looked better on clay but it's entirely different on a hardcourt. I was not impressed with him in his matches against Federer in Miami and Indian Wells. He used to boss Federer on those surfaces back in the day. Also, he was a monster in the 2013 final.

When?
Before 2013 Fed was 1-0 at IW, Nadal 2-1 at Miami (including that 04 match)

Federer in his prime usually owned Nadal on HCs aside from the occasional match on slow HC (09 AO, 11 Miami)

 

[Deleted member 77403]

When?
Before 2013 Fed was 1-0 at IW, Nadal 2-1 at Miami (including that 04 match)

Federer in his prime usually owned Nadal on HCs aside from the occasional match on slow HC (09 AO, 11 Miami)

If you say up to and including 2012 was prime Fed, then you need to include AO 2012 and also Dubai 06.

In the first half the year up to that period, from AO to Miami it was actually 5-2 in favor of Nadal. On those outdoor hard courts, Federer did not own Nadal during that period. Things are different this year, but not back then.

Yes, the fact they did not play post Wimbledon HC apart from WTF is another story.

 

[NoleFam]

When?
Before 2013 Fed was 1-0 at IW, Nadal 2-1 at Miami (including that 04 match)

Federer in his prime usually owned Nadal on HCs aside from the occasional match on slow HC (09 AO, 11 Miami)

I was going to answer this but @Hitman pretty much said everything I was going to say.....so no need to

 

[Deleted member 77403]

I was going to answer this but @Hitman pretty much said everything I was going to say.....so no need to

Up until 2017 Federer has never owned Nadal on an outdoor HC, even if we discount 2013 and 2014. As for right now, if we look at their matches in the first HC part of the season, Nadal still leads 7 - 5. Of course the momentum is firmly now with Federer in that particular series. 2017 has gone a long way in Federer making in roads into his rivalry with Nadal.

 

[zep]

I'd argue that Federer winning 10 hard court slams is more impressive given that the competition is tougher than on clay(although winning 10 at the same major is obviously an incredible achievement itself). And no way would Nadal have twice as many titles if there were two clay slams lol, cos if there were you can bet your bottom dollar that all the players would train harder to be more proficient on the surface, just as most of them are now on HC.

By that logic, grass court field is weak too. In fact, it should be weaker than clay considering there is only one tournament of any real value on grass, compared to 4 on clay. Clay is not weak. If there was no Nadal it would have been highly competitive, it's just that Nadal is ridiculously good on it. Look at what he did to players like Wawrinka and Thiem. Clay is their best surface.

 

[NoleFam]

Up until 2017 Federer has never owned Nadal on an outdoor HC, even if we discount 2013 and 2014. As for right now, if we look at their matches in the first HC part of the season, Nadal still leads 7 - 5. Of course the momentum is firmly now with Federer in that particular series. 2017 has gone a long way in Federer making in roads into his rivalry with Nadal.

Yes I remember that very well. I still remember that 2005 Miami match where I really thought Nadal was going to beat him that day, and probably should have. Just inches away from doing it. Federer, to his credit, is salvaging that dire head to head one match at a time though. He couldn't ask for better chance to at least close the gap somewhat. He also stayed off the clay to make sure he keeps the momentum...lol

 

[KINGROGER]

If you say up to and including 2012 was prime Fed, then you need to include AO 2012 and also Dubai 06.

In the first half the year up to that period, from AO to Miami it was actually 5-2 in favor of Nadal. On those outdoor hard courts, Federer did not own Nadal during that period. Things are different this year, but not back then.

Yes, the fact they did not play post Wimbledon HC apart from WTF is another story.

2010-2012 post prime but still respectable baseline game Fed. 2013 bad back/form/racket year. 2014 - grandad Fed can't be expected to do anything aged 32+.

Before 2013 HC h2h was 6-5 in favour of Fed with most those matches being on slow HC 0 on faster surface apart from 06-07 YEC matches where Fed destroyed Rafa on decoturf (an insight to how any potential USO match would have went).

 

[NatF]

By that logic, grass court field is weak too. In fact, it should be weaker than clay considering there is only one tournament of any real value on grass, compared to 4 on clay. Clay is not weak. If there was no Nadal it would have been highly competitive, it's just that Nadal is ridiculously good on it. Look at what he did to players like Wawrinka and Thiem. Clay is their best surface.

I love the double standards, talking up Wawa and Thiem when out of the other side of your mouth you'll spit on guys like Roddick and Hewitt at Wimbledon

 

[Deleted member 77403]

By that logic, grass court field is weak too. In fact, it should be weaker than clay considering there is only one tournament of any real value on grass, compared to 4 on clay. Clay is not weak. If there was no Nadal it would have been highly competitive, it's just that Nadal is ridiculously good on it. Look at what he did to players like Wawrinka and Thiem. Clay is their best surface.

Can we now use this for 2004 to 2007 period, that Fed bashers love to claim is weak?

 

[KINGROGER]

Up until 2017 Federer has never owned Nadal on an outdoor HC, even if we discount 2013 and 2014. As for right now, if we look at their matches in the first HC part of the season, Nadal still leads 7 - 5. Of course the momentum is firmly now with Federer in that particular series. 2017 has gone a long way in Federer making in roads into his rivalry with Nadal.

Yes but all their matches have been on slow HC.

The only fast surface matches? 06-07 YEC. Utter annihilation by Fed. 2013 Cincy too but that's irrelevant Fed would beat him there during any other year.

 

[zep]

I love the double standards, talking up Wawa and Thiem when out of the other side of your mouth you'll spit on guys like Roddick and Hewitt at Wimbledon

I see where you're going with it but there is no double standard. Roddick and Hewitt are considered weaker only when compared to the big 3 competing against each other, and Nadal has basically blanked the other big 2 on clay, at least at RG.

 

[zep]

Can we now use this for 2004 to 2007 period, that Fed bashers love to claim is weak?

Of course, when you say 2004-07 was weak, you use a reference point. Weak/strong are not absolute terms. If that reference point is say the next 5-6 years from 2008 onward then it was absolutely weaker in comparison.

 

[NatF]

I see where you're going with it but there is no double standard. Roddick and Hewitt are considered weaker only when compared to the big 3 competition against each other, and Nadal has basically blanked the other big 2 on clay, at least at RG.

But maybe Federer is just ridiculously good on grass

Anyways just having some banter with you.

 

[zep]

But maybe Federer is just ridiculously good on grass

Anyways just having some banter with you.

I don't think I have ever claimed he was not. To me, he would have won as many grass court tiles as he did in that period regardless, but he most likely would have lost a couple of hard court finals instead of going what 8-0, each time against a new opponent.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

I pretty much agree. I didnt get to watch the two last sets. What i dont understand is why and when he goes into the anti-BP mode. Just by reading the stats early third set i knew he was going to lose. I mean, he could handle the impossible pressure vs Rafa at AO, but he can't convert BP's vs Haas in Stuttgart??

Its because his return is not that good anymore, and it gets exposed on grass.
Would LOVE Lucas to play Federer in Halle. And in Wimbledon for that matter

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Yes but all their matches have been on slow HC.

The only fast surface matches? 06-07 YEC. Utter annihilation by Fed. 2013 Cincy too but that's irrelevant Fed would beat him there during any other year.

Yes, but if you notice I mentioned that there was a lack of Fedal matches post HC during that period, apart from WTF which is the only real placed Fed owned Nadal.

 

[NoleFam]

Yes but all their matches have been on slow HC.

The only fast surface matches? 06-07 YEC. Utter annihilation by Fed. 2013 Cincy too but that's irrelevant Fed would beat him there during any other year.

When I said "those surfaces" I was talking about the spring hardcourts which we have pointed out how successful Nadal was against Federer. Federer always had the upper hand indoor and we know that, and they barely met in the US hardcourt season.

 

[zep]

Yes, but if you notice I mentioned that there was a lack of Fedal matches post HC during that period, apart from WTF which is the only real placed Fed owned Nadal.

Nadal did beat him in Dubai though, which was a very fast surface. More than the speed, it's the low bounce of indoor courts that bothers Nadal, for example O2 is a very slow surface, yet Federer has mostly dominated Nadal there. The truth is outside indoor hard courts, this year is the first time Federer has looked truly comfortable against Nadal.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

By that logic, grass court field is weak too. In fact, it should be weaker than clay considering there is only one tournament of any real value on grass, compared to 4 on clay. Clay is not weak. If there was no Nadal it would have been highly competitive, it's just that Nadal is ridiculously good on it. Look at what he did to players like Wawrinka and Thiem. Clay is their best surface.

So many players, specially in Europe grew up w clay. And European players the best on tour now. Its no excuse why its not many good clay players, its true that Rafas level is so high it makes clay level in general look weak.

 

[NatF]

I don't think I have ever claimed he was not. To me, he would have won as many grass court tiles as he did in that period regardless, but he most likely would have lost a couple of hard court finals instead of going what 8-0, each time against a new opponent.

Not against Djokovic of USO 2010 and 2013 he wouldn't have

 

[Djokovic2011]

By that logic, grass court field is weak too. In fact, it should be weaker than clay considering there is only one tournament of any real value on grass, compared to 4 on clay. Clay is not weak. If there was no Nadal it would have been highly competitive, it's just that Nadal is ridiculously good on it. Look at what he did to players like Wawrinka and Thiem. Clay is their best surface.

Except I never said that clay is weak, just that the competition is stronger on HC. And yes, I feel the same way about grass too although you could argue it's a bit tougher to win on that surface since you're more likely to be hit off the court by a servebot, especially in the first week. Ring any bells?

 

[zep]

So many players, specially in Europe grew up w clay. And European players the best on tour now. Its no excuse why its not many good clay players, its true that Rafas level is so high it makes clay level in general look weak.

Agree most European players are generally comfortable on clay, unlike American players.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

Nadal did beat him in Dubai though, which was a very fast surface. More than the speed, it's the low bounce of indoor courts that bothers Nadal, for example O2 is a very slow surface, yet Federer has mostly dominated Nadal there. The truth is outside indoor hard courts, this year is the first time Federer has looked truly comfortable against Nadal.

Another good point. Time after time Rafa saying its not about the speed, but the bounce of the ball. Its a myth going on here about Rafa and speed surface. He need the bounce to set up his shots.
Only thing different now is w moya he has flatten shots both BH and FH and taking the ball earlier. So... lets see if he can do a little better in Wimbledon this year.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Nadal did beat him in Dubai though, which was a very fast surface. More than the speed, it's the low bounce of indoor courts that bothers Nadal, for example O2 is a very slow surface, yet Federer has mostly dominated Nadal there. The truth is outside indoor hard courts, this year is the first time Federer has looked truly comfortable against Nadal.

I mentioned that Nadal beat Federer in Dubai already, if you look up a few posts.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

Agree most European players are generally comfortable on clay, unlike American players.

The big 4 played lots of clay since they were small.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Yes I remember that very well. I still remember that 2005 Miami match where I really thought Nadal was going to beat him that day, and probably should have. Just inches away from doing it. Federer, to his credit, is salvaging that dire head to head one match at a time though. He couldn't ask for better chance to at least close the gap somewhat. He also stayed off the clay to make sure he keeps the momentum...lol

How hilarious would it be if both of Nadal's biggest rivals end up with a seven match win streak against him?

 

[NoleFam]

Not against Djokovic of USO 2010 and 2013 he wouldn't have

LOL. You didn't have to say that.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Another good point. Time after time Rafa saying its not about the speed, but the bounce of the ball. Its a myth going on here about Rafa and speed surface. He need the bounce to set up his shots.
Only thing different now is w moya he has flatten shots both BH and FH and taking the ball earlier. So... lets see if he can do a little better in Wimbledon this year.

Bingo. He needs the right bounce to set up those shots, which clay gave him, hence the perception is forehand had improved so much. When he gets back onto lower bouncing surfaces, then we will see exactly how much that forehand has improved. Wimbledon will be interesting to watch it will be good test.

 

[NoleFam]

How hilarious would it be if both of Nadal's biggest rivals end up with a seven match win streak against him?

Well it could actually happen if they meet a few more times this year while Federer stays hot like he's been. I don't know though. Nadal just got a boost of confidence from that clay run.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Well it could actually happen if they meet a few more times this year while Federer stays hot like he's been. I don't know though. Nadal just got a boost of confidence from that clay run.

But we now enter Federer's fun house.

 

[Fedinkum]

Clay is for cow...

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

Bingo. He needs the right bounce to set up those shots, which clay gave him, hence the perception is forehand had improved so much. When he gets back onto lower bouncing surfaces, then we will see exactly how much that forehand has improved. Wimbledon will be interesting to watch it will be good test.

And have you ever seen that USO gives a pretty good bounce? I have He even said so, good enough bounce for Rafaman.
Its not only FH a massive weapon for Rafa, its the BH too. And did you see how early he takes the ball on BH?? Its pretty darn early and cross court bullets he changes from defense to offense very fast. Boom. He is pretty much a difficult player to play now, w more weapons than ever, best serve he ever had too
Rafa was a huge inspiration for Federer after injury break. Maybe Rafa will be an inspiration for Novak too, it is possible Novak has to make a few changes in his game to be able to play high level being older. (he is more injury prone now)