Lag Forehand

[10isMaestro]

Quick fixes are rare in tennis.

Quick fixes usually work on the basis of established skills. I think that by tapping into existing habits and making just a small adjustment, you can hasten the improvement, but that only works if you have that foundation already in place. In my case, my forehand quick fix worked because I used to do something very similar before.

I used to invert the string bed at an angle and probably used to get my arm in a similar position -- and never picked on some of those details, which allowed bad habits to creep in. The other day, I just got so pissed at myself for spraying forehands everywhere. I thought I'd rid myself of all the unnecessary stuff, just set my arm, forearm and hand almost exactly like I wanted them at impact and turn my upper body and hips, hoping this simple gesture would just work, except it would likely be slower. To my surprise, that pissed off gesture got me to strike the ball very hard -- harder than I used to hit. For the first time in nearly a month, I felt that racket pulling my forearm muscles and heard that cracking sound you hear when you make a solid contact.

That is a quick fix, but it probably only worked because it exploited habits I already had ingrained. I don't think that if I hadn't fooled around with an inverted string bed on my takeback and never played quality forehands before that this would have been such a quick fix. It probably would have required me to do a lot more drills and put in a lot more effort.

 

[Shroud]

Imo it's your attitude that's wrong. Or maybe attitude is the wrong word.. How about resolve? Or fortitude. Or belief in self.. Or fear.

You're changing many things. Do you think that it's all going to click after 2 sessions? You know this is a sport of skills right? Man up. Change one thing, shadow it, wall out on it. For weeks. Get feedback from here on that one thing. Fix. Pick next element to work on. Repeat. Make progress.

It doesn't happen over night. A half knuckle change in a grip for example takes most serious players months. Quick fixes are rare in tennis.

Thats just it. On the BH changes just happen. For example I wanted to do an open stance 1 hander and in one outing was able to completely change 20 years of ingrained footwork and hit a decent shot even though its not optimum. I wanted to stop hinging at the elbow and do a loop takeback and accomplished that all in a one outing. On the serve I wanted to hit flat with the EBH grip and viola just did it.

the forehand isnt like that sadly, but yeah I was expecting to be able to tighten it up. I did just go out and start getting some lag so why not be able to incorporate the left arm and stance?

As to resolve nothing gets me motivated like the humiliation of these "i failed and suck" posts....

 

[Tight Lines]

your hand should follow a path that's slight going away from your body and to the right towards the right net post. That way the racquet will move in a STRAIGHT path to the ball even though your torso is rotating. You should swing OUT slightly to the RIGHT. Look at a pro's hand path. it goes out and away. This also allows you to hit through while still applying wipe and better ensures/allows a flush correctly facing racquet head on the ball at contact because the racquet is moving straight to the ball even though you are rotating.
... as opposed to super open stance and swing across your body right to left. Just go look at nadal or fed or djoko... hand goes out and away from the body during the swing.

This. You are not extending all the way through to hit the ball. Because you are rotating prematurely without extending all the way, you are hitting most of the balls at the tip of your racket. This could explain why you are shanking some balls and your feel of lack of power.

Don't give up. It looks a lot better than your old swing IMO.

 

[Shroud]

Ha! I was at this practice session, standing right next to the guy that was filming. Hey Shroud, watch how they get the racquet in hitting position, then the lag happens naturally when they start the hand forward. You seem to be forcing the lag by whipping the racquet around at the last minute. Watch your forehand in your old "6 months of changes" video. That one was simpler and more repeatable. As Cheetah said you need to keep drilling it; of course it will break down from time to time and you'll get frustrated but you need to stick with it no matter what, especially in a competitive situation even if you lose. No change you make will make your forehand instantly and consistently better. As others have noted learning a tennis stroke doesn't work that way. It's all about repetition, and we're talking hundreds of hours to really burn it in.

Hope to see you soon bud.

Thanks Yaz!

FWIW I stuck with it today and promptly lost 3 sets of doubles! Sadly the FH didnt have much to do with the losses...

Really frustrating.

Hope to see you too.

 

[Shroud]

That high take back creates more leverage, but not everyone hits that way and still hit big (Murray or Ferrer). I like the higher take back because it makes things more fluid and helps with timing. I think your issue with "weak ball" comes from the fact that you use primarily your arm. When I want to hit bigger forehands I always think of building it from the ground, bending the right leg, coiling and when I uncoil into the ball the racquet just flies through it. It is a whole body motion. There is a video on youtube where Djokovic explains how spin comes from legs. If you "supplement" your strokes with bigger coiling-uncoiling and bend your legs you will see a big difference.

Thanks. I watched it and will again and do my best to understand it. Knee bend is not something that I am known for..

 

[Shroud]

Just to demonstrate what is a proper swing path and how hard you can actually hit when you get your wrist and elbow in the right position and the right angles for a forehand, I tried just putting my racket in the drop position (strings facing down, wrist laid back, ready to pull -- some people call it petting the dog or setting the racket on a table top) and just swung that thing with my arm and a tad of body rotation (I tried to limit my habit of using the entire sequence of movements, but it's hard). I can hit a decent forehand with that small shortened swing, no take back and virtually no lower or upperbody rotation.

If you do a few of those shortened forehands with self-fed balls, you will see that you can hit hard without a huge takeback -- you have to convince yourself and get the feel for it. Then, you can do a few where your racket is already taken back, adding a bit of body rotation into it. The point isn't to hit hard, but to feel that lagging action happen and see that it allows you to hit hard -- harder than you used to -- despite the smaller range of motion.

If you want an actual drill, I'd say pick up many tennis balls and go to a court. Hit 50 forehands already in the drop position, hit 50 more in the full taken back position and, finally, hit 60 forehands in this order: drop position, then fully taken back, then all the way from the ready position. Forehands are not complicated: you set your arm right, drop the racket and pull hard, then it's just a matter of doing a few things to ensure your string bed doesn't open up and getting a feel for a proper rhythm.

Of course, doing the aforementionned drills breaks down your forehand stroke and, although it makes it way easier to work on small bits of it, that means it also breaks down your rhythm and fluidity. To get back that fluidity, I suggest doing what I'd call continuous forehand shadow swings once you mastered the details of it. You go through the whole motion and ,at the end of the follow-through, you let the racket kick back up and down again to reach your unit turn position and start it all over again -- it's like tracing a sideways figure 8, like the infinity symbol.

Cool. I will give it a try and see what happens. A former coach was talking to me about the infinity symbol but it was lost on me I think and produced an all arm shot.

 

[Shroud]

This. You are not extending all the way through to hit the ball. Because you are rotating prematurely without extending all the way, you are hitting most of the balls at the tip of your racket. This could explain why you are shanking some balls and your feel of lack of power.

Don't give up. It looks a lot better than your old swing IMO.

Think you are right on alot of things.

Hit for about 5 min today the doubles and I tried to focus on the contact out and front, and some one said about throwing the are out to the right. That seemed to help a bit. Occasionally I would hit a great FH. Its still a weird shot...

 

[LeeD]

Just relax and hit the ball, it will come.
I think I played the entire 3 sets without hitting more than 3 total forehand groundstrokes. And during warmups, I hit 90% topspin backhands, and during the 3 sets, ZERO, not one.
That's the difference between hitting and playing, I guess.

 

[Shroud]

Just relax and hit the ball, it will come.
I think I played the entire 3 sets without hitting more than 3 total forehand groundstrokes. And during warmups, I hit 90% topspin backhands, and during the 3 sets, ZERO, not one.
That's the difference between hitting and playing, I guess.

Hey D,

Good seeing you today. I think I hit maybe 4 FHs the whole time. It wasnt till after that I got a few FHs and remembered to try the advice here.

I wish I could volley 1/2 as good as I once did. You played great.

 

[mcs1970]

Coming from a racquetball world and starting tennis late in life, I was used to hitting a very hard forehand. It worked great in tennis too(when it didn't hit the net ) but the more I have got into tennis, the more I feel that in Tennis 'hitting' the forehand is the wrong word to use, unless you are on the run and have no choice. Nowadays I think of the forehand more as reaching for the ball slowly with the racquet face and then pulling it. I constantly keep telling myself 'reach'/'pull' when I am hitting my forehand to get away from the mindset of 'hitting' it. Your forehand seems to have the same issue. In your video, when you are thinking about it, as opposed to when the opponent is at the net and you're reacting faster, there is a split second right before you are smacking the ball, where you are pausing that racquet. That pause lends to arming more.

This video helped me a lot:

 

[Shroud]

Coming from a racquetball world and starting tennis late in life, I was used to hitting a very hard forehand. It worked great in tennis too(when it didn't hit the net ) but the more I have got into tennis, the more I feel that in Tennis 'hitting' the forehand is the wrong word to use, unless you are on the run and have no choice. Nowadays I think of the forehand more as reaching for the ball slowly with the racquet face and then pulling it. I constantly keep telling myself 'reach'/'pull' when I am hitting my forehand to get away from the mindset of 'hitting' it. Your forehand seems to have the same issue. In your video, when you are thinking about it, as opposed to when the opponent is at the net and you're reacting faster, there is a split second right before you are smacking the ball, where you are pausing that racquet. That pause lends to arming more.

This video helped me a lot:

Thanks.

I watched the vid but not sure it really helped. Ill watch again. In the still he has his racket in a position I never seem to be able to achieve. Though the tip about leaving the left hand on the racket longer is something I can try.

I dont quite understand the part about the reach and pull...I thought I did but this line makes it confusing: "reaching for the ball slowly with the racquet face and then pulling it"

 

[Shroud]

Played today and I'll spare you guys the vid. Throwing the hand out to the right seemed to help but it also seemed to make everything go to the bh side for the most part.

Any drill to stop the take back from going soooo far back?

 

[Fintft]

Coming from a racquetball world and starting tennis late in life, I was used to hitting a very hard forehand. It worked great in tennis too(when it didn't hit the net ) but the more I have got into tennis, the more I feel that in Tennis 'hitting' the forehand is the wrong word to use, unless you are on the run and have no choice. Nowadays I think of the forehand more as reaching for the ball slowly with the racquet face and then pulling it. I constantly keep telling myself 'reach'/'pull' when I am hitting my forehand to get away from the mindset of 'hitting' it. Your forehand seems to have the same issue. In your video, when you are thinking about it, as opposed to when the opponent is at the net and you're reacting faster, there is a split second right before you are smacking the ball, where you are pausing that racquet. That pause lends to arming more.

This video helped me a lot:

Great vid!

I would say that most people can learn this without a coach though...

Imo, the OP hits without the "wrist" at least in the first video posted

 

[Fintft]

Played today and I'll spare you guys the vid. Throwing the hand out to the right seemed to help but it also seemed to make everything go to the bh side for the most part.

Any drill to stop the take back from going soooo far back?

You mean elbowing a bit helped? Cool.

As for your shots going CC (that's what you meant right?), time should fix that, as I've noticed that most everyone at the beginning does that with their FHs (heck you can even park yourself expecting a CC FH, b.c initially most people can't go DTL, not even down the middle of the court).

 

[Shroud]

You mean elbowing a bit helped? Cool.

As for your shots going CC (that's what you meant right?), time should fix that, as I've noticed that most everyone at the beginning does that with their FHs (heck you can even park yourself expecting a CC FH, b.c initially most people can't go DTL, not even down the middle of the court).

Just to be clear, I was talking bout throwing the arm out to the right to start the swing, not the elbow. And when I did that it was much harder to go crosscourt. Going down the line or late was super easy. Though we did some crosscourt drills and I figured it out I think.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Shroud, when you are hitting, do you stand on your toes or your heels? If the latter, it may explain your problems with footwork. I think in general it helps to move lightly around the court. Kohl in that video almost looks like he's dancing around the court (which is something that's also often said of Fed). Of course as a pro he would be playing copybook so that's not remarkable in itself. But if you are up on your toes, you will find it easier to get into the desired position and make those little last second adjustments that others mentioned. It also becomes easier to throw yourself into the shot that way. Your ideal hitting sensation should be of throwing the racquet towards the ball (though you don't literally throw it, but you release it that loose). And that starts by dynamically rotating the body into the shot. Let the lower body strength propel the ball.

 

[Crocodile]

Just to demonstrate what is a proper swing path and how hard you can actually hit when you get your wrist and elbow in the right position and the right angles for a forehand, I tried just putting my racket in the drop position (strings facing down, wrist laid back, ready to pull -- some people call it petting the dog or setting the racket on a table top) and just swung that thing with my arm and a tad of body rotation (I tried to limit my habit of using the entire sequence of movements, but it's hard). I can hit a decent forehand with that small shortened swing, no take back and virtually no lower or upperbody rotation.

If you do a few of those shortened forehands with self-fed balls, you will see that you can hit hard without a huge takeback -- you have to convince yourself and get the feel for it. Then, you can do a few where your racket is already taken back, adding a bit of body rotation into it. The point isn't to hit hard, but to feel that lagging action happen and see that it allows you to hit hard -- harder than you used to -- despite the smaller range of motion.

If you want an actual drill, I'd say pick up many tennis balls and go to a court. Hit 50 forehands already in the drop position, hit 50 more in the full taken back position and, finally, hit 60 forehands in this order: drop position, then fully taken back, then all the way from the ready position. Forehands are not complicated: you set your arm right, drop the racket and pull hard, then it's just a matter of doing a few things to ensure your string bed doesn't open up and getting a feel for a proper rhythm.

Of course, doing the aforementionned drills breaks down your forehand stroke and, although it makes it way easier to work on small bits of it, that means it also breaks down your rhythm and fluidity. To get back that fluidity, I suggest doing what I'd call continuous forehand shadow swings once you mastered the details of it. You go through the whole motion and ,at the end of the follow-through, you let the racket kick back up and down again to reach your unit turn position and start it all over again -- it's like tracing a sideways figure 8, like the infinity symbol.

This is really a continuation from the post by Tennisamuri called "Lag and Snap Forehand". That was his thread and out of respect I thought I should start my own.

here is a vid of me trying the advice in that thread at least as I understood it.

I think I was really getting the lag. But something was wrong.

Pros:
- It was effortless in that it was fluid and I wasnt tense or straining
- Pretty arm friendly
- Most spin I think I have ever hit it seemed like

Cons
-No power
-Ball wasnt heavy, just spinny and weak
-felt slappy and hard to time

You can also see how much better I was hitting when he was at the net and I had less time to think. Please let me know what I screwed up. I was trying to get the lag mostly and the left arm extension and keep the right hand on the right side of the body. On Vimeo if you pause the vid and then press "shift" and the right arrow, you can go frame by frame:

I just had a look at your video and my view comparing the differences between your shots played from balls coming from the net compared to baseline to baseline relates purely to timing issues. When you were doing baseline to baseline you tended to rotate forward (Opening up) to early compared to net to baseline shots. Common things to look for with analysis and correction include:
1. Omitting a segment or part of the kinetic chain
2. Moving segment in the wrong order - coordination issues
3. Performing movements either too quickly or slowly
4. Performing movements too early or late - timing

If you refer to these 4 kinetic chain issues you can pick where the faults are.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Just to be clear, I was talking bout throwing the arm out to the right to start the swing, not the elbow. And when I did that it was much harder to go crosscourt. Going down the line or late was super easy. Though we did some crosscourt drills and I figured it out I think.

That confirms the earlier diagnosis that you tend to get a bit late on the ball. Because for the crosscourt forehand you do need to strike the ball early. It's essentially the same shot as the down the line (if we mean the modern forehand) but the contact happens when the racquet is already moving slightly across the body rather than when it's still to your right (as in the case of down the line). Initially it should feel like you are slightly reaching for the ball (with practice it becomes a natural sensation) rather than letting the ball come to you. The latter is more the older way of hitting which works better with a conservative grip, old school Eastern FH stroke and a heavy racquet (by heavy I mean mass and not just swing weight). In the modern forehand, you pick the ball early and whip the racquet across. So the greater your RHS, the more powerful your shot will be (provided of course the RHS is backed by adequate hip rotation and is not all arm).

 

[Todd Hicks]

This is really a continuation from the post by Tennisamuri called "Lag and Snap Forehand". That was his thread and out of respect I thought I should start my own.

here is a vid of me trying the advice in that thread at least as I understood it.

I think I was really getting the lag. But something was wrong.

Pros:
- It was effortless in that it was fluid and I wasnt tense or straining
- Pretty arm friendly
- Most spin I think I have ever hit it seemed like

Cons
-No power
-Ball wasnt heavy, just spinny and weak
-felt slappy and hard to time

You can also see how much better I was hitting when he was at the net and I had less time to think. Please let me know what I screwed up. I was trying to get the lag mostly and the left arm extension and keep the right hand on the right side of the body. On Vimeo if you pause the vid and then press "shift" and the right arrow, you can go frame by frame:

Your stroke is good but you're taking a tad too long to get your racquet back.

 

[Shroud]

I just had a look at your video and my view comparing the differences between your shots played from balls coming from the net compared to baseline to baseline relates purely to timing issues. When you were doing baseline to baseline you tended to rotate forward (Opening up) to early compared to net to baseline shots. Common things to look for with analysis and correction include:
1. Omitting a segment or part of the kinetic chain
2. Moving segment in the wrong order - coordination issues
3. Performing movements either too quickly or slowly
4. Performing movements too early or late - timing

If you refer to these 4 kinetic chain issues you can pick where the faults are.

I am sure you are right if you actually understand the kinetic chain. If you dont well good luck with those 4 things.

I dont know the 4 segments! Or the timing of them! I think its like hip, leg drive, lag or something like that.

 

[Shroud]

Shroud, when you are hitting, do you stand on your toes or your heels? If the latter, it may explain your problems with footwork. I think in general it helps to move lightly around the court. Kohl in that video almost looks like he's dancing around the court (which is something that's also often said of Fed). Of course as a pro he would be playing copybook so that's not remarkable in itself. But if you are up on your toes, you will find it easier to get into the desired position and make those little last second adjustments that others mentioned. It also becomes easier to throw yourself into the shot that way. Your ideal hitting sensation should be of throwing the racquet towards the ball (though you don't literally throw it, but you release it that loose). And that starts by dynamically rotating the body into the shot. Let the lower body strength propel the ball.

My feet are as flat as my ex wife's double A's.

I can try the toes but never been a dancer and lower body strength is an issue. I am currently playing without knee braces which is an improvement but the left knee is pretty weak. There are low impact things I can do to strengthen but ones that would help it fast kill it, like lunges...

 

[Shroud]

That confirms the earlier diagnosis that you tend to get a bit late on the ball. Because for the crosscourt forehand you do need to strike the ball early. It's essentially the same shot as the down the line (if we mean the modern forehand) but the contact happens when the racquet is already moving slightly across the body rather than when it's still to your right (as in the case of down the line). Initially it should feel like you are slightly reaching for the ball (with practice it becomes a natural sensation) rather than letting the ball come to you. The latter is more the older way of hitting which works better with a conservative grip, old school Eastern FH stroke and a heavy racquet (by heavy I mean mass and not just swing weight). In the modern forehand, you pick the ball early and whip the racquet across. So the greater your RHS, the more powerful your shot will be (provided of course the RHS is backed by adequate hip rotation and is not all arm).

I can post a vid soon but I THINK I was more opening the stance...

 

[Shroud]

Its ugly. Cross courts at 3:20. Pause and then SHIFT and the ARROW KEYS will go frame by frame

 

[Cheetah]

yea you're welcome.

 

[Shroud]

yea you're welcome.

Sure Cheet, you been helpin from the get go. Though I have a long way to go on this FH. Some shots its clicking others I miss the entire ball!

 

[mad dog1]

My feet are as flat as my ex wife's double A's.

I can try the toes but never been a dancer and lower body strength is an issue. I am currently playing without knee braces which is an improvement but the left knee is pretty weak. There are low impact things I can do to strengthen but ones that would help it fast kill it, like lunges...

Stay on the balls of your feet. Not toes. This isn't ballet!

 

[Dolgopolov85]

My feet are as flat as my ex wife's double A's.

I can try the toes but never been a dancer and lower body strength is an issue. I am currently playing without knee braces which is an improvement but the left knee is pretty weak. There are low impact things I can do to strengthen but ones that would help it fast kill it, like lunges...

No lunges. Basically you shouldn't be pounding the court when you are running around, that's all. I practiced for half marathon a year before I picked up tennis and I learnt to land on my toes and use light steps which I carried into tennis. May not work for everyone but if your feet are firmly planted on the ground (otherwise a good thing in life ) you will lose some time just in taking off and getting towards the ball.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Its ugly. Cross courts at 3:20. Pause and then SHIFT and the ARROW KEYS will go frame by frame

Your shot actually looks better than what you've described, lol. Maybe Cheetah is onto something here, you anxiously look forward to a level of improvement which you are not experiencing but your shot isn't necessarily bad. If you want to go for a really short angle on the CC (like between net and service line), you need to hit earlier and your body too will need to turn somewhat to the left. On low CC balls, I like to get down on my knee esp if I have decided early to go for that shot. I understand that's a non workable proposition so in that case you are doing ok within your constraints.

 

[Bender]

Your shot is actually quite fine.

It's just that you are barely moving to the ball, and are at times losing to muscle memory on tougher balls. That'll go after practice.

Oh, and try keep your stance semi-open if you can. You lose a lot of power and stability in general with both of your feet literally lining up with the baseline.