Football Fans ... was Jay Jay Okocha as good as Ronaldinho?

[3loudboys]

Not tennis related ... for me one of the most exciting talents to have ever played the Premier League ... pure magic

Footy fans what do think?

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Bolton did have some classy players in the Allardyce golden age. haha Djorkaef was another one. We even got a season out of Fernando Hierro.

I do remember when Okocha first came to the Premier League. The commentators referred to him by his actual name. It didn't take long for him to win people over, and then Augustine was out and Jay Jay was in.

 

[3loudboys]

Forgotten about Djorkaef … silky player. Ivan Campo iwas another who’d played at such a high level … iconic hairdo as well lol.

Found this article about that team and they had some fantastic talents. Less glamorous was Kevin Nolan who was a great servant to the club … my work mate nearly spilt his pint in a bar recently and the football convo that followed saved them both from an ugly scene

Remembering 12 of Bolton's Most Memorable Premier League Players

It wasn’t so long ago that Bolton Wanderers were among the best football clubs in the country, an established Premier League side qualifying for European

www.si.com

 

[Gizo]

I'm not going to compare Okocha vs. other players, but he was wonderful to watch at Bolton.

It really impressed me how brilliant he was during Bolton's bid to avoid relegation in 2002/2003 (Bolton vs. West Ham in 2002/2003 is arguably the best Premier League relegation battle that I've seen in terms of the quality of the teams involved), producing key goals and assists and wonderful performances that clearly rubbed off and helped improve the performances of his team-mates around him. Over the years we've seen a lot of talented, flair players do well for teams at the 'right end' of the league, but struggle in relegation battles

That included excellent performances and outrageous pieces of skill in games vs. the 2 best teams Man Utd and Arsenal who were battling it out for the title, during which he ran rings around and bamboozled their defenders with his tricks and flicks on numerous occasions.

Despite Big Sam's reputation in the game in terms of his playing style, the fact that players like Okocha, Djorkaeff, Anelka, Defoe etc. excelled under him was telling.

 

[3loudboys]

Big Sam still the only undefeated England Manager I think … 100% record with a win from his solitary game in charge. Will never know how good he could have been … resigned after describing what pretty much everyone was up to back then.

 

[Gizo]

Big Sam still the only undefeated England Manager I think … 100% record with a win from his solitary game in charge. Will never know how good he could have been … resigned after describing what pretty much everyone was up to back then.

My team, Blackburn, sacked him when we were a safe and steady mid-table Premier League club with no serious danger of getting relegated, and then instantly declined avoiding relegating on the final day of that season before going down the following season.

One of the stupidest sackings in Premier League history for sure.

Apparently he left Bolton, because they were 3rd midway through the 2006/2007 season (an excellent effort as the Premier League 'big 4' at the time were literally 4 of the best clubs in Europe), and he thought they could break into the top 4. He went to the chairman and said that they should strengthen during the January transfer window, but the chairman asked him to look at loan signings instead, so he thought that he had reached his limit there.

 

[3loudboys]

My team, Blackburn, sacked him when we were a safe and steady mid-table Premier League club with no serious danger of getting relegated, and then instantly declined avoiding relegating on the final day of that season before going down the following season.

One of the stupidest sackings in Premier League history for sure.

Apparently he left Bolton, because they were 3rd midway through the 2006/2007 season (an excellent effort as the Premier League 'big 4' at the time were literally 4 of the best clubs in Europe), and he thought they could break into the top 4. He went to the chairman and said that they should strengthen during the January transfer window, but the chairman asked him to look at loan signings instead, so he thought that he had reached his limit there.

Understandable given their league position and potential. Must of been frustrating … and I say that slightly tongue in cheek with the list of names we’ve just been through lol. I remember the SAS at Blackburn … lethal combination got you title with their combined firepower. As a United fan gutted we didn’t get one half of them.

 

[bezs]

Recent Jay Jay Okacha compilation vid on the premier league page.

 

[3loudboys]

Recent Jay Jay Okacha compilation vid on the premier league page.

Shame can’t see that vid

 

[Gizo]

He was brilliant at the 1998 World Cup, including during that thrilling victory vs. Spain.

It was wonderful to see him lighting things up at 'smaller' club in the Premier League instead of at a giant as well, with his long-range free-kicks, dribbling, rainbow flicks, wide range of passes etc.

He did very well for Eintracht Frankfurt in the Bundesliga, including scoring this goal past Oliver Kahn:

 

[Fabresque]

No, but he was a great player in his own right.

We don’t see many ballers like this in the sport anymore which is why my interest has started to wane. Too many statsheet padders and poachers. The games needed some technical ability for a while now.

 

[3loudboys]

Watched this morning and he just makes you smile, gasp and exclaim. Magnificent.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

I watched him a lot when he played in Germany with Eintracht Frankfurt including watching live thst great solo goal against Kahn and KSC which @Gizo posted. Was brilliant at Paris and Bolton as well. He was not quite on Ronaldinho level but had he been Brazilian he wouldn't be far away. Ronaldinho is very overrated, flashy playing style, party guy, scandals outside of the pitch, such players typically get overrated, similar to Safin in tennis or Shawn Kemp in basketball. Whenever he was the star player and teams counted on him he underperformed (Olympics 2000, WC 2006, CHL final 2006).

 

[alexio]

i remember how i was nervous during that important match england vs brazil (coz was a big fan of brazil that time), didnt even watch it, recallin just decided to turn on tv and that was exactly few minutes after that goal of ronaldinho into the seaman' goalpost and was really happy seein that ..haha

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

i remember how i was nervous during that important match england vs brazil (coz was a big fan of brazil that time), didnt even watch it, recallin just decided to turn on tv and that was exactly few minutes after that goal of ronaldinho into the seaman' goalpost and was really happy seein that ..haha

Same here, always a big Brazil fan, but 2002 was the only WC I vividly saw them winning (was too young in 94 and only watched sporadically). With the England match I wasn't nervous at all though since Brazil next to always beats England (cannot off the top of my head remember a loss in an important match). Actually 2:1 was my bet same as with the 2:0 in the R16 against Belgium. For whatever reason I was convinced as a kid that there would be a parallel to Argentina's WC 86 where they beat Belgium and England by the same result. Weird, random logic but it won me some money.

 

[Gizo]

Rio Ferdinand rated him very highly and I think said he was one of the toughest attacking players that he came up against. Okocha caused Ferdinand and Man Utd all sorts of problems during the 2002/2003 season.

I do think he was a major reason why Bolton 1) stayed in the Premier League in 2001/2002 and 2002/2003, and then improved to become to comfortable top 8 Premier League team.

And notably he excelled as he helped Nigeria win the 1994 African Cup of Nations and 1996 Olympics (beating strong Brazil and Argentina teams that were very determined to win gold back to back) - IIRC he was especially brilliant vs. Mexico in the quarter-finals.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

And notably he excelled as he helped Nigeria win the 1994 African Cup of Nations and 1996 Olympics (beating strong Brazil and Argentina teams that were very determined to win gold back to back) - IIRC he was especially brilliant vs. Mexico in the quarter-finals

Back then Brazil took the Olympics very seriously as it was the only big title they were missing at that time. Zagallo explicitly stated that this tourney was his number one priority for 1996. They had fenomeno (already brilliant if not the best in the world), Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos and Bebeto, so this was actually a team of top players that could have beaten any nation in the world.

 

[RS]

Bolton did have some classy players in the Allardyce golden age. haha Djorkaef was another one. We even got a season out of Fernando Hierro.

I do remember when Okocha first came to the Premier League. The commentators referred to him by his actual name. It didn't take long for him to win people over, and then Augustine was out and Jay Jay was in.a

Don't feel bad for derailing threads. Back to cross sports waffle.

 

[alexio]

Same here, always a big Brazil fan, but 2002 was the only WC I vividly saw them winning (was too young in 94 and only watched sporadically). With the England match I wasn't nervous at all though since Brazil next to always beats England (cannot off the top of my head remember a loss in an important match). Actually 2:1 was my bet same as with the 2:0 in the R16 against Belgium. For whatever reason I was convinced as a kid that there would be a parallel to Argentina's WC 86 where they beat Belgium and England by the same result. Weird, random logic but it won me some money.

really not bad for a kid to find that link to wc86, borg, well done,

 

[Gizo]

Back then Brazil took the Olympics very seriously as it was the only big title they were missing at that time. Zagallo explicitly stated that this tourney was his number one priority for 1996. They had fenomeno (already brilliant if not the best in the world), Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos and Bebeto, so this was actually a team of top players that could have beaten any nation in the world.

Yes that squad was ridculously stacked. Rivaldo was heavily blamed in Brazil for the defeat to Nigeria right, missing chances, and then getting dispossessed when trying to dribble out of Brazil's half when they were leading 3-1, with Nigeria going on to score to narrow the deficit and ignite their comeback. At least his image in Brazil was redeemed after his brilliant performances during the 1999 Copa America, which also helped him win the FIFA World Player of the Year award.

I guess as they had no World Cup qualifiers for France 1998 (the last time that the reigning champions would qualified automatically alongside the hosts), that further increased the importance of the 1996 Olympics for then, in terms of competitve match action during that 4 year window. And with Copa Americas taking place during the odd years (I thought it was better when European Championships and Copa Americas took place during different years), it was the focal point of the summer for both them and Argentina. Argentina's squad included Crespo (who had already led River Plate to Copa Libertadores glory and earned a move to Serie A / Parma), Zanetti, Ayala, Simeone, Lopez, Ortega etc.

Mexico, then a stacked Brazil team and then a stacked Argentina team, is as tough a knockout run to an Olympic gold medal in football, as any team could face.

I remember Brazil also sent a strong squad for the 1995 Umbro Cup in England which they won beating Japan, Sweden and England; a good mix of experienced pros and very talented youngsters (including Fenomeno).

 

[3loudboys]

Poll added

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Yes that squad was ridculously stacked. Rivaldo was heavily blamed in Brazil for the defeat to Nigeria right, missing chances, and then getting dispossessed when trying to dribble out of Brazil's half when they were leading 3-1, with Nigeria going on to score to narrow the deficit and ignite their comeback. At least his image in Brazil was redeemed after his brilliant performances during the 1999 Copa America, which also helped him win the FIFA World Player of the Year award.

I guess as they had no World Cup qualifiers for France 1998 (the last time that the reigning champions would qualified automatically alongside the hosts), that further increased the importance of the 1996 Olympics for then, in terms of competitve match action during that 4 year window. And with Copa Americas taking place during the odd years (I thought it was better when European Championships and Copa Americas took place during different years), it was the focal point of the summer for both them and Argentina. Argentina's squad included Crespo (who had already led River Plate to Copa Libertadores glory and earned a move to Serie A / Parma), Zanetti, Ayala, Simeone, Lopez, Ortega etc.

Mexico, then a stacked Brazil team and then a stacked Argentina team, is as tough a knockout run to an Olympic gold medal in football, as any team could face.

I remember Brazil also sent a strong squad for the 1995 Umbro Cup in England which they won beating Japan, Sweden and England; a good mix of experienced pros and very talented youngsters (including Fenomeno).

The 3-1 at Umbro Cup against England was the first match of them I watched and immediately became a fan, especially Juninho Permambucano played great the whole tournament. Edmundo also not too shabby. All that stuff came within their 37 matches without a loss streak that only ended with a 0-2 loss in the Gold Cup final against Mexico which was however Brazil's B-Squad. Tbf they also lost the CA 95 final against Uruguay on penalties which counts as remis in such series.

Anywho, I do think that Zagallo's (and later Zico's) puerile bickering with Romario costed them big, they would have won both Olympics 96 and WC 98 with Ro-Ro combination like they had in 1997. Rivaldo after that loss against Nigeria stated later that this was definitely not his tournament, but regardless of him, they should never have lost that match, as they had some experienced players in the squad who should have reacted once it went south.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

really not bad for a kid to find that link to wc86, borg, well done,

I even got the semi against Turkey right. In the spirit of the alleged pattern I thought to have recognised I gave them 1-0 since Argebtina in 86 had also won their third knock-out game before the final 1-0. Didn't bother me back then that it was the R16 and not the semi and against Uruguay not Turkey. Anywho, being completely convinced about my betting strategy I of course gave Brazil a 3-2 in the final against Germany (same as Argentina in 86), which is where my luck ended. Anyways, at least got the tendency which all in all gave me 200 Euro.

 

[alexio]

I even got the semi against Turkey right. In the spirit of the alleged pattern I thought to have recognised I gave them 1-0 since Argebtina in 86 had also won their third knock-out game before the final 1-0. Didn't bother me back then that it was the R16 and not the semi and against Uruguay not Turkey. Anywho, being completely convinced about my betting strategy I of course gave Brazil a 3-2 in the final against Germany (same as Argentina in 86), which is where my luck ended. Anyways, at least got the tendency which all in all gave me 200 Euro.

cool, yea bookies givin really fat odds on correct scoreline,

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Don't feel bad for derailing threads. Back to cross sports waffle.

Even if we have some balderdash like Ronaldinho supposedly being overrated and so on, they are still sticking to football.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Even if we have some balderdash like Ronaldinho supposedly being overrated and so on, they are still sticking to football.

Since that "balderdash" came from me, any arguments against it?

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Since that "balderash" came from me, any arguments against it?

''No''

 

[Poisoned Slice]

I don't really get into the whole overrated and underrated. Really, I'm just mad he lost out to Michael Owen as top next gen and not being the Serie A young player of the year in 1998/1999 database. Gotta be fair to Owen though, he was so hot at this point, but still, Ronaldinho almost a goal/assist contribution per game.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Sorry for the Football Manager hijack, but I thought I'd share Jay Jay stats. haha Now, I want to buy him. Just a shame I don't actually use a number 10 in my team. I'm playing Stone Age 442.

The big 3 all 20/20. Flair, Technique and dribbling.

 

[3loudboys]

Sorry for the Football Manager hijack, but I thought I'd share Jay Jay stats. haha Now, I want to buy him. Just a shame I don't actually use a number 10 in my team. I'm playing Stone Age 442.

The big 3 all 20/20. Flair, Technique and dribbling.

Nice job ... GOAT stats although pace looks under cooked. Bargain for £51k per week

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Nice job ... GOAT stats although pace looks under cooked. Bargain for £51k per week

Yeah, he looks wonderful. I'd put him in a mentoring group and hope to get the determination up a bit, but I wouldn't have him as a bench warmer because most of the other stats would cover it, I think.

 

[3loudboys]

Yeah, he looks wonderful. I'd put him in a mentoring group and hope to get the determination up a bit, but I wouldn't have him as a bench warmer because most of the other stats would cover it, I think.

I played a few of those old footy manager games … one birthday do as sad as this sounds was playing Premier Manager 99 on a 24 hour beer and football bender. Can’t remember where I ended up but a few strikers selflessly played in goal.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

''No''

That's what I expected.

 

[3loudboys]

'I wasn't taught how to play football, I just went out there and started playing because I love the game'
'We used to play with any round thing we could find and whenever we did find a ball, it was a bonus'

 

[Poisoned Slice]

'I wasn't taught how to play football, I just went out there and started playing because I love the game'
'We used to play with any round thing we could find and whenever we did find a ball, it was a bonus'

That takes me back to the days playing with the 99p plastic balls in the street. Really makes you treasure the moment when you get a mitre delta or something. lol

 

[3loudboys]

That takes me back to the days playing with the 99p plastic balls in the street. Really makes you treasure the moment when you get a mitre delta or something. lol

100% ... I can't remember how many of those balls we punctured or just got blown away if it was windy. He just sounds like a guy who like us just liked kicking a ball around and expressing himself. Always remember the 20 a side games in park during school hols whre it actually was jumpers for goal posts. We'd argue whether shots were over a theoretical cross bar Happy days.

Used to play for the local pub team and used something similar to this in winter ... on compacted snow. Nothing a bit of Winter Green couldn't numb.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

100% ... I can't remember how many of those balls we punctured or just got blown away if it was windy. He just sounds like a guy who like us just liked kicking a ball around and expressing himself. Always remember the 20 a side games in park during school hols whre it actually was jumpers for goal posts. We'd argue whether shots were over a theoretical cross bar Happy days.

Used to play for the local pub team and used something similar to this in winter ... on compacted snow. Nothing a bit of Winter Green couldn't numb.

That's a lovely ball.

School bags, lunch boxes and jumpers used as goal posts, or much like Jay Jay says, anything we could get our hands on. Yes, I'm familiar with the theoretical crossbar. Pretty sure I did take part in some 20 a side matches.

Playing against other schools and their pitches with what felt like no grass on them. Just great for me, the keeper, on one of those rainy days. Just diving about in mud. Yes, the beautiful game.

 

[RS]

Football is boring.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Dodging one of Paul Scholes red card tackles is a great achievement. Would have been goat worthy if he flicked it over his head.

Where all my dribblers at? I know it's still out there. I just don't get much or any of it at United.

 

[3loudboys]

That's a lovely ball.

School bags, lunch boxes and jumpers used as goal posts, or much like Jay Jay says, anything we could get our hands on. Yes, I'm familiar with the theoretical crossbar. Pretty sure I did take part in some 20 a side matches.

Playing against other schools and their pitches with what felt like no grass on them. Just great for me, the keeper, on one of those rainy days. Just diving about in mud. Yes, the beautiful game.

It was always said that the keepers were a little nuts ... my son was keeper for his team for a couple of seasons before Uni and watching how hard those guys played ... you needed a little bit of crazy ...

Remember the mud baths, good shout, played all over really and like most weekend warriors .... the 5m slide in the mud no matter whether you made the tackle or not ... were most memorable.

 

[3loudboys]

Dodging one of Paul Scholes red card tackles is a great achievement. Would have been goat worthy if he flicked it over his head.

Where all my dribblers at? I know it's still out there. I just don't get much or any of it at United.

That body swerve was something ... Strictly winner written all over it

Shea Lacey looks an incredible prospect from the junior ranks ... rave reviews. Still miss this guy in the united shirt ... he could turn you inside out.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

That body swerve was something ... Strictly winner written all over it

Shea Lacey looks an incredible prospect from the junior ranks ... rave reviews. Still miss this guy in the united shirt ... he could turn you inside out.

Giggsy is going to run down the wing. None of the cutting inside every time you have the ball. Can only wish the kid the best. Garnacho and Mainoo does give me some hope.

A good goalkeeper needs that eccentricity. As long as he can save some shots as well. Remember when we had Barthez dribbling past forwards? ''Barthez is the equivalent of human anxiety.'' Still, hell of a career.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

That's what I expected.

It was more of a Ronaldinho fanboy comment. One of those thinking about all the good times and how dare anybody say he's overrated! If you think he's overrated, then that's fine. I've no argument. I only really get rattled at things like Ruud Van Nistelrooy was overrated.

 

[3loudboys]

Giggsy is going to run down the wing. None of the cutting inside every time you have the ball. Can only wish the kid the best. Garnacho and Mainoo does give me some hope.

A good goalkeeper needs that eccentricity. As long as he can save some shots as well. Remember when we had Barthez dribbling past forwards? ''Barthez is the equivalent of human anxiety.'' Still, hell of a career.

Giggs left footed on left wing and Becks right footed on the right wing … made sense to me. Got past a player or delivered the ball early from a wide position into the box … got a few trophies with that set up. Kobbie looks a precocious talent and he’ll be top class .. not far off now tbh. He’s what our midfield have needed for years. Garnacho another destined for big things …and can rock the peroxide marauder look

When the word eccentric and goalkeeper are mentioned can’t help but think of Grobelaar … great stopper for Liverpool and his antics would have me crying. Fabien another, perfect anxiety description, Gary Bailey might have been the domestic equivalent lol.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Giggs left footed on left wing and Becks right footed on the right wing … made sense to me. Got past a player or delivered the ball early from a wide position into the box … got a few trophies with that set up. Kobbie looks a precocious talent and he’ll be top class .. not far off now tbh. He’s what our midfield have needed for years. Garnacho another destined for big things …and can rock the peroxide marauder look

When the word eccentric and goalkeeper are mentioned can’t help but think of Grobelaar … great stopper for Liverpool and his antics would have me crying. Fabien another, perfect anxiety description, Gary Bailey might have been the domestic equivalent lol.

He handled this like a pro.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1270309917929410562

 

[3loudboys]

He handled this like a pro.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1270309917929410562

Literally cap in hand lol

 

[alexio]

I even got the semi against Turkey right. In the spirit of the alleged pattern I thought to have recognised I gave them 1-0 since Argebtina in 86 had also won their third knock-out game before the final 1-0. Didn't bother me back then that it was the R16 and not the semi and against Uruguay not Turkey. Anywho, being completely convinced about my betting strategy I of course gave Brazil a 3-2 in the final against Germany (same as Argentina in 86), which is where my luck ended. Anyways, at least got the tendency which all in all gave me 200 Euro.

since euro is pretty close, what i find it really interesting..lets take a look, i call it kinda 12-year three-round circle, that works in incredible way exactly only related to euro, first one is..92 denmark, nobody expected that, kinda real sensation, and they won it, then in 12 again.. in 04 its greece, a heavy underdog before the start, and third time is portugal in 16... and second case, a bit more interesting that first one (why i was sure before super matteo qf match that he would be in final).. its a link between wimby finalist and euro finalist same year, what i mean.. in 96 krajicek, czech by background, and czech football team, both played in a final and czech guy won but czech team lost, then in 12 years..nadal and spain, both won, and finally in 12 again..super matteo and italian team, but now (in order to have a balance), italian guy lost but italian team won, interesting isnt it

 

[3loudboys]

since euro is pretty close, what i find it really interesting..lets take a look, i call it kinda 12-year three-round circle, that works in incredible way exactly only related to euro, first one is..92 denmark, nobody expected that, kinda real sensation, and they won it, then in 12 again.. in 04 its greece, a heavy underdog before the start, and third time is portugal in 16... and second case, a bit more interesting that first one (why i was sure before super matteo qf match that he would be in final).. its a link between wimby finalist and euro finalist same year, what i mean.. in 96 krajicek, czech by background, and czech football team, both played in a final and czech guy won but czech team lost, then in 12 years..nadal and spain, both won, and finally in 12 again..super matteo and italian team, but now (in order to have a balance), italian guy lost but italian team won, interesting isnt it

Could be that the countries football teams and tennis players inspire one another … national pride is a powerful motivator.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

since euro is pretty close, what i find it really interesting..lets take a look, i call it kinda 12-year three-round circle, that works in incredible way exactly only related to euro, first one is..92 denmark, nobody expected that, kinda real sensation, and they won it, then in 12 again.. in 04 its greece, a heavy underdog before the start, and third time is portugal in 16... and second case, a bit more interesting that first one (why i was sure before super matteo qf match that he would be in final).. its a link between wimby finalist and euro finalist same year, what i mean.. in 96 krajicek, czech by background, and czech football team, both played in a final and czech guy won but czech team lost, then in 12 years..nadal and spain, both won, and finally in 12 again..super matteo and italian team, but now (in order to have a balance), italian guy lost but italian team won, interesting isnt it

Really is. Denmark, Greece and Portugal were indeed surprise winners. 1968 Italy and 1980 Germany are outliers here of course. Let's see who wins 2028. EC is far more prone to underdogs winning it than WC.

Another one: before WC 98, there was a pattern that would have suggested England should have won it. Argentina had won it in 1978 and 1986 (1978 +1986 =3964), Germany in 1974 and 1990 (1974+1990 =3964), Brazil in 1970 and 1994 (sum again 3964) and Italy in 1982 (1982×2=3964). For England, who had won in 1966 they would have need to win 1998 to come to the same sum as well. Unfortunately the formula didn't work and I did not win anything, but it is fun to try to find patterns.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

It was more of a Ronaldinho fanboy comment. One of those thinking about all the good times and how dare anybody say he's overrated! If you think he's overrated, then that's fine. I've no argument. I only really get rattled at things like Ruud Van Nistelrooy was overrated.

Overrated does not mean he was bad, everybody can be overrated by someone. I was a big Ronaldinho fanboy as well but the way he wasted his potential with his stupid lifestyle and almost always folded in critical situations pushed me away from my fanboyism.